np: UU Stage 3 - We Are The Champions

[Yeah Galo Sengan]

just a quick question here;

does naive, max sp.attk life orb zoroark's grass knot ohko hippowdon?

 

[Yeah Galo Sengan]

as someone mentioned earlier, sceptile is ALMOST strong enough to plough through uu but not quite, and gets worn down easily from weather/hazards/priority.

also: rock slide > eq so you can murk those zapdos (ie. do a lot of damage then get one shot by heat wave)

 

[Forsety]

I don't think we're at a consensus for who the main offender is, hippo or stoutland. We also talked a bit about how hippo's stupidly high defenses let it tank almost every physical attacker, and loading up on spdef lets it take on powerful special attackers up to the power level of Alakazam. We invite the rest of you to post your thoughts to help us decide on what to do.

But please no back-and-forth debating that goes on for pages. That ruins a thread.

Gonna make my stance pretty clear and concise here.

His insane bulk and good offenses is just a plain full stop for many a mon, it is no wonder Roserade is so popular now.

Stoutland is just simply a effective revenger and cleanup who has his speed bumped to phenomenal levels by Hippo. He doesn't single handedly define an entire playstyle nor does he bust everything into pieces like Staraptor did.

-Kingdra. His bulk lets him get DD's off, and if you can get even 2, waterfall + outrage is only stopped by slowbro, empoleon, and ferroseed.

Pretty sure Rhyperior or Registeel could step in here too once you're locked into Outrage and there is Tangrowth too.

just a quick question here;

does naive, max sp.attk life orb zoroark's grass knot ohko hippowdon?

Physically defensive Hippo? Just barely, it can fail. Specially defensive Hippo? No chance in hell, you're hitting around 79% region absolute max.

 

[Yeah Galo Sengan]

i've seen a lot more people run specially defensive hippo lately, does it still get 2ko'd by lo alakazam?

 

[Jubilee]

i've seen a lot more people run specially defensive hippo lately, does it still get 2ko'd by lo alakazam?

Timid LO Psychic does 41.4% - 48.8% to 252 HP / 252 SpD Careful Hippowdon, so no it doesn't 2HKO. But, I'm not sure if most people are running maximum Special Defense or investing some in Defense. However, even with maximum SpD Hippowdon is always 2HKOed by Grass Knot 73.8% - 87.1%.

 

[Banedon]

The UU powwow had an unplanned discussion today and we talked a lot about hippo and stoutland. Basically, everybody agreed that something about sand is bad for the meta except Heysup who apparently is a god at teambuilding and prediction and never has any kind of problems with Stoutland. Basically the argument was that Stoutland powers through most steels and has crunch / pursuit for ghosts so it is very very hard to stop without a Rhyperior. I don't think we're at a consensus for who the main offender is, hippo or stoutland. We also talked a bit about how hippo's stupidly high defenses let it tank almost every physical attacker, and loading up on spdef lets it take on powerful special attackers up to the power level of Alakazam. We invite the rest of you to post your thoughts to help us decide on what to do.

But please no back-and-forth debating that goes on for pages. That ruins a thread.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that there was a brief mention of Roserade as a suspect, but the consensus was to wait for a decision on sand before dealing with Rose. If something about sand gets nerfed, hail usage rises, and Rose becomes more of a liability.

Lol Heysup ... Stoutland can afford to predict wrong and let a ghost come in for free because it has Pursuit. Once it traps the ghost, it'll be spamming Return until your team folds.

I'm pointing the finger at Stoutland. Same reasons as jamashawalker. In my experience Hippowdon can be killed or walled or worn down (same as Chansey, really), but then again that could be because of my teams, which tend to be mostly special. Alakazam dealing 41.4% - 48.8% is enough to power through Hippowdon too, after hazards; it also means Hippowdon is forced to recover instead of attack so you have some chance to spam Psychic and maybe get a SpD fall.

Finally I'm firmly against Roserade being a suspect at the moment. If nothing else, I want to see reasons for it.

 

[WinstonShnozwick]

Roserade is a bitch only because of her varied sets. I don't know if she's going to lay spikes or hit me hard, and then I might get put to sleep on top of that. I only haven't had problems with her thanks to weavile and sceptile.

Question, I'm trying out a different eelectross set. I want to use a choice scarf on him, for a momentum pokemon with volt switch and uturn. Any tips for it? And the biggest question I have is what do I put his speed at, because he doesnt hit 110 base speed with scarf, so what is the most important speed tier (with scarf) I can have eel at?

 

[smashlloyd20]

Probably outpacing base 105's, it's helpful to outrun Mismagius.

 

[WinstonShnozwick]

I went with just enough to outspeed base 90's, because there's few pokemon above that that are in UU and worth it, and ones that eel could NOT die against. Anyway, he outspeeds enough, and has some bulk to make up for it. And from some testing, he's pretty powerful actually! My set;

Flamethrower for steels
Volt Switch for water and momentum
Uturn for grass and momentum.

I need a fourth move. Momentum is the stressed role here, so a non attacking move.. any ideas? And also, how should I put my ev's? I made it so he has like 309 sp att and 251 att, any help?

 

[ToF]

I've already made it clear to everyone on the council that was on IRC that Roserade should not, and hopefully will not, be a suspect. Just because something is good doesn't mean it's ban-worthy.

I agree with many of the last few posts in that Hippowdon would be the suspect and not Stoutland, simply because of the effect Hippowdon and Sandstorm has had on the metagame. Don't worry, it's either going to be Hippowdon voted on or nothing; Stoutland is safe in my books and in the books of the majority of the council.

 

[WinstonShnozwick]

I'm finding it a bit irritating how close minded UU is centralizing over hazards. I swear I see Donphan/Roserade/Blastoise on every goddamn team.

And no, Roserade is no problem to me, sniped out by both sceptile and weavile. I really would enjoy seeing hippowdon kicked out, because its ridiculous how he is so bulky.

Something I'm finding annoying is Slowbro. I can take him out, but my Kingdra at +2 and Sceptile at +2 only 2hko still. God damn.

In the process of making my UU official team, I've discovered some very nice sweepers. For UU, I've found that its really nice to just get some poke's that just outspeed and bust through everything instead of having to predict and waste time with pussy switchers.

 

[SJCrew]

I must not been there for you to speak so definitively on the matter, ToF. While I do agree with Snunch's idea that we have more pressing matters to attend to, I would keep in mind that Stoutland is a lot harder to beat when you have to deal with at least a couple of layers of hazards being up at all times. Not even Rhyperior will last long under that kind of pressure.

In case anyone's wondering what all of the hubub is about Roserade, it's pretty much just me. I expressed my discontent with its role in the metagame as well as the centralization around hazards here, and noted how remarkably difficult it was to beat first turn with hazards or Sleep Powder coming your way. Your first switch-in is probably going to be the wrong one, as it sets up hazards on your Chansey and puts your Crobat/Cobalion/Escavalier to sleep. And with the voices of the people growing louder about the domineering effect of hazards on the metagame, it's becoming clear to me that all is not well in Kansas and we should probably have this discussion on IRC again sometime soon. Either way, the idea is out there, and I'd like to hear more opinions on it.

And no, Roserade is no problem to me, sniped out by both sceptile and Weavile.

Both of those Pokemon can and probably will die trying to switch in on Roserade. Also, it's pretty easy to smell the bullshit of having Sceptile of all things trying to revenge something that should normally be able to beat it. I wonder what your opponent was thinking when they kept it in.

 

[Banedon]

For some reason most Roserade do not have Sleep Powder. I don't know clearly why, but I vaguely remember it being illegal with Spikes or something like that. That makes it a lot easier to deal with. At the moment defensive Roserade is more common than offensive Roserade, so don't switch Chansey into it obviously. It's quite frail, especially from the physical side, so switching it in can be difficult. Even if it gets in on something like Rotom-C's Leaf Storm, you can discern its set easily from that. And if it puts something to sleep, you've got no Spikes to worry about.

It's a good Pokemon, but I'm not convinced it is BL.

 

[Heysup]

Stoutland:

I can't believe we are seriously considering Stoutland, a normal-type sweeper with utterly no coverage moves to bypass Rock or Steel-types with a higher than 5 base defense stat, as possibly broken. He gives awesome SS counters free switch-ins. He can't sweep you unless you are building the frailest and failest offensive teams. You can't just stick a Ghost-type on your team and expect to win, you need something that doesn't get OHKOed by Return. If I had ever seen anyone lose to Stoutland without being outplayed and while they had reasonably prepared for it then maybe there would be a case. Stoutland is the #1 reason I was #1 for as long as I was.

Hippowdon:

Hippowdon is a great physical wall and Sandstorm is incredible but nothing about that is broken. It doesn't wall a significant amount of physical attacks and does not wall any special attackers. CB Heracross 2HKOes with Megahorn/Close Combat (~50% min), CB Rhyperior 2HKOes with Earthquake (~50% min) and obviously Escavalier is in the same boat along with others. His physical walling capabilities are impressive but not enough to push him over the edge.

Alakazam:

Yea ban it. Does too much damage with too many ways of simply costing someone the game on a bad guess. Offensive teams can't handle it. Simply put.

 

[alexwolf]

I am going to agree with Heysup!
For me Alakazam is the problem,and the fact that he is a staple on sandstorm teams doesn't help either.
The way i see it,people find it hard to deal with sand because:
a)they are not used to it
b)alakzam lies in those and people tend to blame sand instead of alakazam,in combination with Stoutland's presence of 'course.
My opinion is that once Zam goes and everyone gets a little bit more used to sand teams everything will setle down...

No matter how powerful and fast Stoutland is you cannot sit there and ignore his numerous counters and checks.
As said a bazilion times by Heysup CB Rhyperior gives the middle finger to any common sand team out there,CB Aggron does the same to an extent(although it has to use Aqua Tail to 2hko Hippo,instead of a stab like Rhyperior)!
There are also Aerodactyl,Bisharp,Cobalion,Escavalier,Registeel and some more that i may be forgeting that are all exceptional checks!
Yes Hippo can wall many of them but you can take care of that with your other team members.
You can run T-Spikes support or just surprise the Hippo switch in with a Toxic or even beat him with a CM Cobalion or a Taunt Aero.
There are many ways around this core,but people are just to lazy to look for them 'cause they only use their standarts.

 

[Moo]

I don't think the problem is Hippowdon. It seems like the problem is Hippowdon because it's alot better than the little hippo, and therefore it's easier to maintain Sandstorm, which increases Stoutlands effectiveness. Technically speaking, if a really good player used Hippopotas, but managed to keep Sandstorm up, Stoutland would be just as effective

Edit: Also, Zam is a dick, and needs to go

 

[Cherub Agent]

only problem pokemon in the metagame is alakazam.

Lol, i cannot believe people consider stoutland to be broken. Please get into you head that good + used a lot is not the same as being broken. Just use a stupid rock or steel type pokemon!

Hippowdon is in the same boat, come on. It's a physical wall that takes physical attacks really well and can be EVed to take special attacks if you want, but that takes away from its physical defense... Physical chansey?

 

[Stagnant]

I completely disagree with Heysup.

Stoutland is trash. Generally choiced therefore easy to predict. Damage is meh. Why use this thing?

Hippowdon is more of a wall then Milotic back in 4th gen UU and that is saying a lot. The bulk of weaknesses can be covered with 1 Pokemon... and it doesn't have to be specific.

Alakazam is fast and hits hard... but is still frail and cant switch-in to anything. U-turn and priority alone destroy this thing.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

I completely disagree with Heysup.

Stoutland is trash. Generally choiced therefore easy to predict. Damage is meh. Why use this thing?

Hippowdon is more of a wall then Milotic back in 4th gen UU and that is saying a lot. The bulk of weaknesses can be covered with 1 Pokemon... and it doesn't have to be specific.

Alakazam is fast and hits hard... but is still frail and cant switch-in to anything. U-turn and priority alone destroy this thing.

Stoutland: STAB Return off a 328 Attack stat hits rather hard, and generally choiced is a bad assumption when facing Stoutland. Stoutland doesn't have an ability that can only allow him to hold Choice Band. Stoutland can use other items like Life Orb and Expert Belt. See, now your Mismagius can't just switch in for free and expect to stay in alive. In fact, the only hard counter IMO is Rhyperior... Stoutland may not be the best sand sweeper, but considering that it doesn't even need to invest into Speed(maybe to outspeed a few scarfers or so), it can invest into bulk instead. It's like SS Kingdra, who's deceptively bulky and hits ridiculously hard, the same can be said of Stoutland.

Hippowdon: I've used both Hippopotas and Hippowdon, and honestly speaking, Hippowdon may be more of an ass to kill compared to Eviolite Hippopotas. Hippopotas was a lot harder to keep alive, especially when we only have Abomasnow. I find this ironic actually, since pre-Hippowdon everyone was like "BAN ABOMASNOW" or "BAN FROSLASS" or "BAN SNOW CLOAK" or something like that, now that Hippowdon dropped down these same guys are going "BAN HIPPOWDON" or "BAN STOUTLAND" or "BAN SAND RUSH".

Hippowdon isn't even that bad actually. Alakazam does a good job at crippling it most of the time. Sash Alakazam is a 100% win over any Hippowdon, meaning that generally Hippowdon won't really bother to waste their time, and risk another guy on the team having RD/Sunny Day or even Abomasnow.


Alakazam: Good, perhaps too good. If you are not priority or scarf'd, expect to die a quick death. It's the best end-game sweeper in UU right now. Everyone wants this guy: stall teams love him as a great endgame sweeper, offensive teams love him as a strong and fast sweeper without the need to even set-up. Alakazam generally needs a free switch-in, you can achieve that through sacrifice or slow U-Turns. If you are lucky, you may switch in into a Toxic, and its home-free for you. AFAIK, only a few Pokemon can win against him, but nothing can exactly switch into him (except for maybe Chansey) and expect not to get killed immediately. Weavile has a slight chance of potentially being raped by Focus Blast, Hitmontop is fried by Psyshock/Psychic, etc.

 

[waterwarrior]

Registeel also hard-counters Stoutland. Banded Fire Fang, the only thing it can actually hit it with, doesn't do much. And I run a Specially defensive set.

 

[alexwolf]

Stoutland: STAB Return off a 328 Attack stat hits rather hard, and generally choiced is a bad assumption when facing Stoutland. Stoutland doesn't have an ability that can only allow him to hold Choice Band. Stoutland can use other items like Life Orb and Expert Belt. See, now your Mismagius can't just switch in for free and expect to stay in alive. In fact, the only hard counter IMO is Rhyperior... Stoutland may not be the best sand sweeper, but considering that it doesn't even need to invest into Speed(maybe to outspeed a few scarfers or so), it can invest into bulk instead. It's like SS Kingdra, who's deceptively bulky and hits ridiculously hard, the same can be said of Stoutland.

Hippowdon: I've used both Hippopotas and Hippowdon, and honestly speaking, Hippowdon may be more of an ass to kill compared to Eviolite Hippopotas. Hippopotas was a lot harder to keep alive, especially when we only have Abomasnow. I find this ironic actually, since pre-Hippowdon everyone was like "BAN ABOMASNOW" or "BAN FROSLASS" or "BAN SNOW CLOAK" or something like that, now that Hippowdon dropped down these same guys are going "BAN HIPPOWDON" or "BAN STOUTLAND" or "BAN SAND RUSH".

Hippowdon isn't even that bad actually. Alakazam does a good job at crippling it most of the time. Sash Alakazam is a 100% win over any Hippowdon, meaning that generally Hippowdon won't really bother to waste their time, and risk another guy on the team having RD/Sunny Day or even Abomasnow.


Alakazam: Good, perhaps too good. If you are not priority or scarf'd, expect to die a quick death. It's the best end-game sweeper in UU right now. Everyone wants this guy: stall teams love him as a great endgame sweeper, offensive teams love him as a strong and fast sweeper without the need to even set-up. Alakazam generally needs a free switch-in, you can achieve that through sacrifice or slow U-Turns. If you are lucky, you may switch in into a Toxic, and its home-free for you. AFAIK, only a few Pokemon can win against him, but nothing can exactly switch into him (except for maybe Chansey) and expect not to get killed immediately. Weavile has a slight chance of potentially being raped by Focus Blast, Hitmontop is fried by Psyshock/Psychic, etc.

Come on man you cannot seriosuly believe this...
There are also Tangrowth and Slowboro which both have regenerator and are perfect counters 'cause they avoid the 2hko from every attack and can cripple Stout badly with a status move while healing the damage simply by switching out.
As said before there is also Aggron which again is a hard counter(even harder than Rhyperior).
And also let's not forget Hippowdon itself which can wall Stoutland and eventually kill him by alternating between healing and attacking.

Talking only about counters and not having mentioned checks and still there are so many.

 

[Boorego]

I know everyone is talking about all of the new sand pokemon and all but what do you folks still think of the big issue from the last stage of testing: frosslass. I personally am still kinda on the fence of what I think should be done with her. Those ninja dodging skills are very annoying especially with that good speed and a supporting attack as potent as spikes. You can't really ban something just for being "annoying" though. What does anyone else think.

 

[Yeah Galo Sengan]

i'm definitely backing booting alakazams ass right into bl

sash + encore is such an easy nobrainer security blanket revenge killer that also totally destroys setup/status

and life orb + sub usually gets at least 2 kos a match

 

[steviestar]

I know everyone is talking about all of the new sand pokemon and all but what do you folks still think of the big issue from the last stage of testing: frosslass. I personally am still kinda on the fence of what I think should be done with her. Those ninja dodging skills are very annoying especially with that good speed and a supporting attack as potent as spikes. You can't really ban something just for being "annoying" though. What does anyone else think.

It's not just "annoying" when froslass gets up 3 layers of spikes and paralyzes half your team, or potentially even taking a few out with blizzspam. Froslass still needs to GTFO even with the decline of hail teams.

 

[Cherub Agent]

I'd totally be against banning froslass. Sand can easily keep the snow cloak "annoying" factor in check,not to mention the common machamp can walk allover froslass

However, i may be biased because i love using bulky froslass outside of hail. Mabye a snow warning + froslass ban? It's inelegant, but imo is the best solution