I don't think a snow warning + frosslass complex ban would be the best idea not because it is too complex or anything, but because it is really just nerfing one specific pokemon to keep her uu. What makes frosslass so special as to need her own complex rule to save her? I'm no higher up at smogon but i'd imagine that it would create a whole new can of worms, who's up for some telepathy wobbuffet or blaze blaziken in UU? They are in no way broken in that form...at all. If frosslass is a big enough problem then either banning her or banning snow warning would probably be the way to go, but i'm sure most of us can agree that hail itself is nowhere near overpowered these days. Oh on a unrelated note I too would not be against the "alakazam for BL" movement :).
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np: UU Stage 3 - We Are The Champions
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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I'd like Mew to get the fuck out of the tier. It's faster than the slower mons and can taunt, willowisp the physical mons, and has bulk that you cant break through while it roosts every fucking turn.
stallbreaker mew has ass typing, 'only' 100 in every stat and generally can't do a single shit to fire types
SJCrew, you aren't the only one concerned about Roserade's effect on the metagame. In fact, I'd place her as the number one threat to it, above even Alakazam (who can be beaten by just about anything wearing a scarf, as well as by a few select counters). Roserade's impressive versatility, coupled with the almost complete ineffectiveness of spinners this stage, makes her enormously successful at supporting her team. Consider how she can help Stoutland push through one his best counters: Rhyperior. Stoutland's CB Return, by my calculations, does on average 25% damage to CB Rhyperior. With three layers of spikes, it means Rhyperior is losing half its health on the switch-in, and (without Wish support) likely to lose to Stoutland the next time it's called upon to block a hit; even with just two layers, Rhyperior only gets one more turn to block him. And the same goes for nearly all of Stoutland's common switch-ins.
Now, some of you might argue that sand, Stoutland, and Roserade were all present in the tier before, so it must be one of the newcomers (Hippowdon or Alakazam) who've made sand offense so much more effective. And, to an extent, you'd be right. But I'd like to draw your attention to the other newcomers: Darmanitan, Chandelure, and Machamp. I wouldn't say any of them are broken, but together they've made Hail teams much less viable, and in turn Roserade (and sand) much more.
I know I haven't been very active in this metagame, so I took a few minutes to get to 1250 so I can share some substantiated impressions. Some of what I've noticed has already been hashed and rehashed, so I'll stick to things that I don't see a lot of people talking about.
1) Sableye is the biggest troll in the metagame. If you are a physical attacker and you are not a fire type or have Guts as your ability, Sableye shuts you down. I mean, it's pretty much just that simple. It has no weaknesses for anything to exploit, meaning that it takes like 40% maximum (from a burned CB Escavalier, which is the highest damage I ran into). It's also a nasty stallbreaker, being able to tank weaker special hits and burning opponents while taunting their recovery. Surprised I haven't seen it around more often.
2) I haven't seen anyone talk about weavile, but I've seen a lot of them around. Weavile is fantastically anti-metagame. I'm not a big fan of the CB set though - the SD set is so much more dangerous.
3) Sand seems like a very powerful playstyle, but I don't see it being broken quite yet. I actually made a team before I read anything about stoutland here, and my team has no normal resists...and I've only been swept by stoutland once and lost to sand itself twice (out of the dozen or so sand teams I ran into). Granted, I do have a weather changer. Maybe once I get higher in the ladder I will run into better teams/players, but so far it's only been slightly harder to kill hippo than it is to kill abomasnow and stoutland is faaaaar less annoying than whorelass.
4) Speaking of which, RD kingdra! Get RD kingdra in against a sand team and set up rain dance to cripple the entire team. They can't get hippo in against you without sacrificing it (or something else) and kingdra has enough power to muscle through any generic walls they might have (except for a random cradily I ran into...) Make sure roserade is a smidge weak first though, so Ice Beam can KO.
5) I'm liking alakazam a lot. UU needed a powerful special attacker that can KO without setup.
6) What happened to Darmanitan? Seems like everyone forgot about it with all the sand around, but it's still one of the best revenge killers in the tier...
7) Chandelure and Tornadus are just incredibly underwhelming.
Thoughts?
1) Sableye is the biggest troll in the metagame. If you are a physical attacker and you are not a fire type or have Guts as your ability, Sableye shuts you down. I mean, it's pretty much just that simple. It has no weaknesses for anything to exploit, meaning that it takes like 40% maximum (from a burned CB Escavalier, which is the highest damage I ran into). It's also a nasty stallbreaker, being able to tank weaker special hits and burning opponents while taunting their recovery. Surprised I haven't seen it around more often.
2) I haven't seen anyone talk about weavile, but I've seen a lot of them around. Weavile is fantastically anti-metagame. I'm not a big fan of the CB set though - the SD set is so much more dangerous.
3) Sand seems like a very powerful playstyle, but I don't see it being broken quite yet. I actually made a team before I read anything about stoutland here, and my team has no normal resists...and I've only been swept by stoutland once and lost to sand itself twice (out of the dozen or so sand teams I ran into). Granted, I do have a weather changer. Maybe once I get higher in the ladder I will run into better teams/players, but so far it's only been slightly harder to kill hippo than it is to kill abomasnow and stoutland is faaaaar less annoying than whorelass.
4) Speaking of which, RD kingdra! Get RD kingdra in against a sand team and set up rain dance to cripple the entire team. They can't get hippo in against you without sacrificing it (or something else) and kingdra has enough power to muscle through any generic walls they might have (except for a random cradily I ran into...) Make sure roserade is a smidge weak first though, so Ice Beam can KO.
5) I'm liking alakazam a lot. UU needed a powerful special attacker that can KO without setup.
6) What happened to Darmanitan? Seems like everyone forgot about it with all the sand around, but it's still one of the best revenge killers in the tier...
7) Chandelure and Tornadus are just incredibly underwhelming.
Thoughts?
yeah weavile is pretty legit. I prefer the life orb + ice shard variant as a check to scarfgon as well as alakazam.
I agree with this one I mean if you consider Sand Veil and Garchomp when it got banned you can see a very common thread between Chomp & Lass' evasion abuse. Namely their speed which allows them to outspeed a sizable portion of the metagame that they both could easily resort to - which is another common link between them - of subbing down and fishing for a miss.
Difference is of course Froslass increases those chances of nothing hitting her thanks to Thunder Wave but that only helps to supplement her further by potentially also paralyzing faster switch ins. Mamoswine of course is just as dangerous to miss but I've not seen any players trying to bank on his snow cloak evasion the way I do with Lass players since Mamoswine isn't fast enough to easily sub down and fish for a miss. If it acquires a miss its not particularly intentional compared to how Lass makes it possible. Or rather what is more important here is that because of how bad defensively ice is its not as if Mamoswine has the luxury to take a hit as it makes a sub, Lass is the same but because of its speed it can sub down before taking any damage until a miss occurs allowing for the creation of an intact sub. Which is why I don't really support a complex ban for this mon since its quite clear unlike any other user Froslass has the right speed to utilize snow cloak to great effect.
Talk of banning frosslass (or whatever combination was the "best" choice) was not because she was "annoying" in hail. It was that under hail conditions, her very existence with the ability snowcloak creates an unfair and uncompetitive situation. Damn near everyone acknowledged that something needed to be done. The reasons why people are now saying Frosslass is not a problem dont really make sense. The two most common I've seen in the thread.
1. The prevalence of sand teams keeps Frosslass in check. I believe this to be flawed thinking and doesnt really address anything. The frequency of a broken situation should have no bearing on whether or not that situation is broken cause, well, it's broken. In a hail v. sand match up yes, frosslass will not have an evasion boost as often.Cool. It is still 20% evasions when it does occur. In hail v. nonweather? Ya, nothing changes. She receives a 20% evasion boost for doing nothing, again. Smogon has already taken steps to remove evasion from the game. I have no idea why it is still allowed through abilities. Now add in that Frosslass can take full advantage of that evasion and you have one shitty situation which leads me to reason number 2.
2. There are now pokemon that check Frosslass.Oh really? Who are they? Go ahead, switch in Darm/Chany (two pokemon hit hard by hazards and take hail damage) into Frosslass as she subs. You have an 80% chance to hit her. She has a 100% chance to paralyze you or lay spikes. If you miss, both jobs are accomplished. Oh, you have a Machamp? OK, you either get paralyzed or spikes on your side of the field but you force Frosslass out. Not too bad I guess. What else are we switching into Frosslass exactly? You are basically forced to keep whatever your 'counter' is in and hope to hit through evasion and paralysis, all while taking damage from hail and getting hazards on your side of the field. If you are lucky your counter dies and breaks the sub. I hope that second pokemon you switch in can take the hazard damage, outspeed, AND kill Frosslass. Oh right, she can switch...
I get that sand is the new dominant whether but I would appreciate it if the council would at least discuss Frosslass. I understand her prevalence is lower but that doesnt somehow make a 20% evasion boost less effective when it occurs. I don't want to seem like the guy still beating the horse but you mean to tell me that PAGES AND PAGES of discussion mean nothing because Hippowdon is in the tier? Give me a break.
I have been having a ton a success with a set that I don't know if I've seen more than a handfull of times. Choice Specs Mismagius is a really fantastic poke in this meta. Base 105 speed means its outspeeding most non scarfed pokes, base 105 sp atk hits pretty hard with specs, and it can even switch in once or twice on neutral special attacks thanks to its base 105 sp def. I've noticed while ghost resists are actually pretty sparse, Snorlax is pretty common (and hates being tricked spec), same with Registeel (same thing) and Empoleon (can't take to many Thunderbolts, and Scald isn't enough for a base 105 sp def). Other than that, I haven't really seen to many. I'll remove those, and if specs are still on, Shadow Ball is very easy to spam. Specs Mismagius also can 'check' rapid spin. I use it as my hyper offense spin blocker and it can switch in once or twice, cripple the spinner with a powerful attack, making it so the spinner can be picked off by almost any member of my team, or giving them specs. In general, its a really solid set that deserves more love.
Yeah about roserade, she is just too dominant, its pretty much use her or use her. T-spikes/Sleep powder + awesome attacking stats turn her into a monster! I dont really have problems with the pure attackings ones with LO, but the bulky ones with black sludge + hazzards are sure a dam to deal with. And she is pretty versatile too, you can never know if you send in something to resist a possible leaf storm, or a sleep fodder. I'd guess she needs to go.
What compounds Roserade's issues as a hazard setter is that she just beats out two of the top spinners Blastoise/Donphan (yeah we have others but they're not too viable in UU for a reason, save Hitmontop obviously) too easily and thanks to natural cure can even have a reliable way of recovery to come back set hazards again. So that the hazard setters still have too much of a distinct advantage over the the existing spinners, which is what really makes her pretty questionable as she does have an ease at setting hazards as well as being an offensive presence to scare off Donphan & Blastoise from spinning. In addition to all her other support roles of course, she's not just good she's great. Broken that needs to be considered with how the metagame is being shaped by her hazards and just how 'easy' it is to be rid of them.
Froslass is of course in the same vein not only being able to act as a spin blocker but a hazard setter at the same time in addition to if the weather permits it granted an evasion boost with her ability she's capable to abusing thanks to her speed.
Question: you made this post some time ago. How does the idea that any team without a Rhyperior has no chance against DetroitLolCat's team tie in with the idea that only the frailest and failest offensive teams lose to Stoutland?
Can you build an effective offensive team without Rhyperior that is not destroyed by Stoutland?
So say Alakazam switches in on your Roserade's Spikes. You predict Psychic / Psyshock and go to Weavile, getting in on the immunity. Now you are faster and have STAB Pursuit, so you go ahead and use it. Alakazam stays in, hangs on with Focus Sash and then OHKOes Weavile with Focus Blast. What're you going to do next? It can switch out of any revenge killer (without Pursuit) you switch in now, too, since it takes no damage from hazards.DetroitLolCat said:
Things I'd vote to ban this round: Alakazam, Stoutland, Frosslass (or Snow Cloak + Snow Warning, if we allow that).
Are you fucking kidding me? Leave it to the UU megathread to find every compliment I give to SS team users and take them out of context as an argument for whatever it is they are trying to prove. So desperate, so petty.
I'm not going to further dignify your question / attack with more than a "yes". The reasoning has been stated already in this thread, generally I might summarize it for users asking questions who don't attack me like that.
OK, how about simply including Pokemon like Aggron (another very effective CB user) or Steelix, Regirock, into your team? The last two are very useful support Pokemon that can be part of an effective defensive core. Stoutland by no means can sweep any offensive team that lacks a Rhyperior...
Maybe you didn't mean it as an attack, but how well do you really expect me to receive someone blatantly taking a post out of context and then anchoring on that point? Definitely feels, smells, and tastes like an attack.
Anyway I happened to have a team that I've been fooling around with. Here's a random team that I found that I did pretty well with while I was bored:
SashZam, Bulk Up Machamp, LO Shaymin, Hazards Omastar, SubSplit LO Chandelure, SubCM Raikou.
Obviously there are problems with the team and I'm fully aware of them, but it works well because it beats Stoutland, offense, and most stall pretty easily. Stoutland can only OHKO Raikou with CB Frustration. The rest can easily take one and KO back or better, get a Substitute up. Obviously I don't use Raikou liberally, but I could probably afford to since I have Omastar who abuses Stoutland's existence by making it that much harder to switch in every time Stoutland comes out.
I'm not specifically preparing for stoutland, but I'm just generally building a team that can take a strong neutral attack and then hit hard enough to KO back.
Anyway I happened to have a team that I've been fooling around with. Here's a random team that I found that I did pretty well with while I was bored:
SashZam, Bulk Up Machamp, LO Shaymin, Hazards Omastar, SubSplit LO Chandelure, SubCM Raikou.
Obviously there are problems with the team and I'm fully aware of them, but it works well because it beats Stoutland, offense, and most stall pretty easily. Stoutland can only OHKO Raikou with CB Frustration. The rest can easily take one and KO back or better, get a Substitute up. Obviously I don't use Raikou liberally, but I could probably afford to since I have Omastar who abuses Stoutland's existence by making it that much harder to switch in every time Stoutland comes out.
I'm not specifically preparing for stoutland, but I'm just generally building a team that can take a strong neutral attack and then hit hard enough to KO back.
There are CB Aggron,CM Cobalion and Aero,with Taunt of 'course,that destroy both Hippo and Stoutlnad and can be used in offensive teams.
Or if you want offensive checks to just Stoutland there are many,i have mentioned them again so just read last posts!
what are people's opinions on moltres in the current meta? beside the ever present 4x sr weakness, it seems it would match up well vs some common threats like rhyperior/roserade/froslass.
Its 90 base speed while good leaves it pretty vulnerable to other threats that and because of the presence of other dangerous fire types like Chandelure/Victini/Damartian the metagame is pretty well prepared to defend against its stabs, bulky waters at UU. It could attempt to stall but with Hail and Sand storm being up in UU more frequently than in RU aside from SR damage it would also be taking residual damage. Zapdos also fares much better than it with higher base speed and only x2 weakness to SR - so defensive Moltres has a clear cut competition here. Final nail in the coffin of course is the existence of Chansey, I'm hoping the usage stats from October continue I'd be pretty interested to see an UU without Chansey and how that affects special attackers.
i dont think i have seen a single chansey in uu for 2 weeks, and i'm like 1330+ ranking :s
That's weird, I've seen plenty. Mabye a few less since Sableye became really common, but thery're still out there
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe it moved up to OU with the 3 month usage stats at the same time machamp chandelure etc moved down.
@ heysup
Just because you peaked number 1 on ladder with cb rhyperior doesn't make stoutland not suspect worthy, seriously your constant reminders of this are getting a bit repetitive by now....
Nope still UU, its only with the latest stats that it broke into OU % but that doesn't mean it will be moving up to OU. It'll be the October-November-December weighted stats that will determine whether Chansey will move up or not, so if the usage trend of October continues then it'll be OU come January.
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