np: UU Stage 3 - We Are The Champions

[alexwolf]

Ive seen this one set that was pretty amazing once ALL ghost have been eliminated..Retaliate+ Last Resort...The person i played against had two pursuiters specifically for ghost..and just ram through teams with LO Last resort..which seemed like it hit harder than CB return

This set not only needs Pursuit support,it also needs Dugtrio and Magneton support to trap Steel-Rock types.
Very difficult to pull but i can see it working in a very well made team.

 

[jamashawalker]

This set not only needs Pursuit support,it also needs Dugtrio and Magneton support to trap Steel-Rock types.
Very difficult to pull but i can see it working in a very well made team.

Actually thats the nice thing...pursuit support is the only thing youll need..STAB retaliate and STAB Last Resort does more than a neutral Crunch to rocks ...yea fire fang or magneton for steels..but the CB set alone already has problems with steels..so not a complete neccessiy for magneton lol gotta do what you always do against them

 

[alexwolf]

Actually thats the nice thing...pursuit support is the only thing youll need..STAB retaliate and STAB Last Resort does more than a neutral Crunch to rocks ...yea fire fang or magneton for steels..but the CB set alone already has problems with steels..so not a complete neccessiy for magneton lol gotta do what you always do against them

If Stoutland has Life Orb or CB then it is going to be carrying either Fire Fang or Wild Charge which hit many of the Rock,Steels for better damage than Last Resort.
Wild Charge hits Omastar,Kabutops,Aerodactyl and Carracosta harder than Last Resort while Fire Fang hits harder Escavalier,Registeel,Bisharp and Cobalion than Last Resort.
So if you want to make up for the coverage lost by the other moves you should be better packing Dugtrio or Magneton or else this set will just be an inferior and easy walled Stoutland.

 

[Amire]

Why don't you guys use Sigilyph more? Yes, Sableye completely shuts it down, but with support from T spikes and a strong special attacker, it's a very underestimated and dangerous force.

Here's a demonstration: http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-EPIC-SIGILYPH-SWEEP

 

[reachzero]

I haven't seen much discussion of it here, but hands-down the best Pokemon I have used so far this period (and I've been pretty successful in a relatively short period of time) is offensive Porygon2. Most of the Porygon2 I've run into have been essentially defensive, using Trace and Thunder Wave, but that is a pretty weak version of it. I've been using Modest Porygon2 with Tri Attack, Discharge and Ice Beam--with Eviolite, you are already incredibly bulky, allowing you to switch in virtually for free on nearly all Waters, Grasses, and certain Grounds (Donphan and Hippowdon). Download is awesome, boosting your SpA to 508 if you switch in on the right Pokemon (like Hippowdon!). The best switch-ins are pretty clearly Chansey, Snorlax, and Escavalier, and thankfully those are Pokemon you should really be prepared to handle anyway.

There are other Pokemon I really think are good in this metagame that I'm not seeing much, but offensive P2 is so good that I don't want to distract from it by talking about other stuff in this post. :)

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

The UU Senate has decided that Alakazam is like super-weak. By a 5-2 vote, Zam stays UU. Next on the agenda you ask? Hippo/Stoutland for sure.

Alakazam is unquestionably the best Special attacker in the UU metagame; he draws this power from the combination of insane Special Attack and Speed, a great ability in Magic Guard, and a small degree of versatility that allows it to sweep through the UU metagame given ideal conditions. However, all of these factors fail to push Alakazam past the point of brokenness because Alakazam possesses hard counters, can be stopped rather easily with prediction, and relies on the inaccurate Focus Blast to secure most of its KOs.

Some say that Alakazam does not simply fare well in this metagame but actually dominates the metagame to the point where he breaks the metagame. I ask this: How can a Pokemon that possess not one, not two, but three hard counters commonly seen in the metagame be considered "far too powerful to exist in a balanced metagame" (Smogon's Philosophy). A team that packs an Escavalier, Spiritomb, or Sableye will plainly not have much trouble with Alakazam. Escavalier will sit there and tank one or two Focus Blasts (factoring in accuracy) and Pursuit Alakazam to death. Sableye stalls out the Shadow Balls while puncturing the Psychic with a few priority Night Shades in the meantime. Stall teams really enjoy seeing Alakazam in the Team Preview, as every halfway decent stall team has a Pursuiter strong or fast enough to trap Alakazam or a Chansey to wall it.

Alakazam creates tremendous offensive momentum when it switches in on just about anything (and doesn't get OHKO'd in the process), but it cannot maintain that momentum at all. Substitute/Psychic/Focus Blast/Shadow Ball is the main set. And that's with Life Orb, too. As soon as it's an Alakazam vs. anything showdown both the Alakazam user and the opponent have to predict well to use/stop Alakazam effectively. However, only one of those situations can occur. If Alakazam attacks and kills the opponent, it gets a kill and gets Pursuited out of the match. If Alakazam attacks and Psychics the opponent's Pursuiter, Alakazam just surrendered both its life and the team's momentum just as quickly as it got it. If Alakazam Focus Blasts the Pursuiter, it might just win (but that's a great prediction), and if Alakazam Subs then it depends on if the opponent switches or not.

If you analyze the situation above, there's almost no way Alakazam comes out with a switch unless it can Sub and take out the opponent's Pursuiter, and have nothing on the opponent's team that can revenge kill it. Not exactly the most feasible of win conditions.

Now, some people say that running a counter to Alakazam is unreasonable because it's complete dead weight on a team. That's just wrong. If a Pokemon is completely manageable in the metagame (as Alakazam is; something has hard counters then it can be managed), then running a hard counter to it will never be dead weight. Just about every sweeper in every tier in every metagame has required you to run either:
1. A specific counter
2. At least one check, preferably 2
to be beatable in the metagame. Alakazam is no different. If you run a counter, you won't lose a Pokemon. If you run some checks, you might lose one but you won't get swept. All a matter of preference.

One other observation is that Alakazam is broken because this metagame is perfect for it. That is just not true. This metagame used to be perfect for Alakazam, but now that people have had a little more time to develop Alakazam has been weakened in the context of current UU. The Sand and Spikes dominance hasn't gone anywhere, but as of now the move Pursuit has popped up on just about every team in the game. From my observations on the ladder, Alakazam has been getting a lot fewer sweeps because players are more prepared for it. Until Alakazam proves itself to be unmanageable without extreme adaptation, it will not be getting a ban vote from me.

this will proly seem like an echo of what heysup said and a little of what i think sjcrew said (despite him voting uu) - zams fallen into a metagame which suits him perfectly but its much more than that - he absolutely dominates it. assuming life orb psychic/shadow ball/focus blast/substitute is the most common set, i still fail to see why this set is "easy" to counter - heysups already given you guys the calcs and the fact of the matter is, nothing switches in willy nilly on an alakazam besides chansey - (wow hazards, sand, and no lefties recovery what fun) and spiritomb (still vulnerable to spikes and sr, and what happens when zam subs on the tomb switch, and then attacks - if its cb tomb, zam either gets to switch out on its prio move or stay in on pursuit). everything else is ohkoed or 2hkoed (and outsped) by alakazam by one certain move - im not saying hes uncheckable because he can be ohkoed by shit like scarf krook pursuit and cb weavile and even scarf flygon u-turn .. but the fact of the matter is, its a risky play where the person with the check cant fuck up or they will be dead - and the fact of the matter is any competent zam player will continually switch in and out, or use sub, to make sure none of these checks get a free switch-in...

i think the best pokemon to compare zam to is skymin from 4th gen - it had tons of checks and even counters and yet it was banned - why? because it hit way too hard and way too diversely. getting in a check was rarely safe and usually had to be done by saccing or multiple pokemon combinations...sounds a lot like alakazam now

by keeping zam uu, we are allowing a pokemon that absolutely dominates the meta to simply dictate the pace of games because of his useful unique features (magic guard in a truly heavy spikes/ss meta, psychic/fighting coverage, etc). my question to you voting uu is "why?". do you not find yourself uneasy about zam at all - i sure do when i play it, even with multiple checks, simply because it can rip holes in teams so quickly and never lose momentum because of magic guard - its a pokemon that makes you lose if you dont play perfectly vs it and the opponent isnt a total retard with it (just like skymin anyone?)

obviously you guys have already submitted your thoughts and paras so i doubt this will mean much, especially if the votes are already being counted, but if we can have 1 final discussion on zam, i hope you can keep this para in mind and simply think as a natural pokemon player would think - how does zam affect the meta? (and no, i dont mean will the meta change if he leaves, im asking what does his presence do to the meta?)

voting BL

Alakazam is UU.

First of all, Alakazam does not strain teambuilding to an unreasonable degree nor does it put unreasonable pressure on offensive teams. This is because, not only are there pokemon that straight up wall Alakazam such as twave Chansey, Foul Play Sableye, most forms of Spiritomb, and Aerodactyl in the sand, it is also very easy to simply remove Alakazam from the match by using any reasonably strong pursuit. When you consider how difficult it is to get Alakazam in during a match (most of the time, the user of Alakazam will have to sacrifice a pokemon to get it in), the user of Alakazam will begin the match at a severe disadvantage if his opponent carries one of the many pokemon that can simply remove Alakazam from the match at will. In addition, this isn’t OU where Lucario can set up on choiced pursuit and sweep teams; in UU, pokemon like scarf Krookodile and CB Weavile also check pokemon like Bisharp and Cobalion that set up on choiced pursuits. Spiritomb also threatens these pokemon with Will-O-Wisp, considering that Spiritomb does not have to use a choice item to counter Alakazam. Essentially, I find Alakazam no more threatening than a pokemon like Heracross. They will both beat unprepared teams fairly easily, but if you are getting swept by either of them with regularity it is a problem with your team, not with the pokemon. Needless to say, stall and balance should be able to handle Alakazam easily, as fitting in a pokemon that can wall Alakazam and/or one that can pursuit it is almost a requirement.

I would also bring up the same points that ToF brings up in his statement; however I could not elaborate on his points with any more clarity or accuracy than he has said. Therefore, if you are reading this right now, you should just go reread ToF’s statement. I’m waiting.

To close, I’d just like to add one more point. When considering if a pokemon is broken or not, I always discount arguments that revolve around one side significantly outplaying the other. Arguments like “x pokemon obviously predicts the switch into y and uses z move” and “x pokemon has trouble switching in, but can predict the opposing pokemon using a support move and come in, or it can come in on a predicted double switch” hold absolutely no ground. If one user must significantly predict for a pokemon to be effective, the door is just as open for the other user to predict the prediction, etc. I cannot tell you how many times I have stayed in against Alakazam with my fighting type as my opponent predicts the switch to my pursuiter and uses focus blast. Situations like that simply comes down to who plays better and does not support either side’s case regarding a pokemon’s tiering.

Free Alakazam

I'm not much of a big writer, so this'll be brief. My initial plan was to ban Alakazam. It's extremely fast and powerful, and Magic Guard is a blessing. If it can switch in unharmed, you're instantly under pressure, especially if it manages to hide safe behind a Substitute. However, a few things put a stop to it quite handily, due to its awful defenses. Special Defense Escavalier, Spritomb, Sableye, and just about every pursuiter / Scarf mon can revenge it. Yes, sashZam exists, but in my experience it was a lot weaker than LO variants, and wasn't as much of a problem most of the time. Basically, you have to have something that can take a hit from it, and KO back, or outspeed and KO it. That's not as bad as it sounds, though. The reason that it's not that bad is because most of the Pokemon that beat it are pretty good, and have great usefulness outside of countering zam. It can also be played around if you're smart. Most well built teams can usually handle an Alakazam with minimal damage, and you don't have to over focus on it, because it can usually be handled easily by one Pokemon. If I can do it, anyone can! That's why I think it should stay UU. The point I'm trying to anchor is, it does have a few great counters, and is revengable, and just because everyone and their mother doesn't counter it, doesn't mean that it's broken. I'm not denying that it's very powerful, but it's managable if you use your brain.

On the subject of Alakazam, I feel as though he's more or less wormed his way into a really convenient metagame for him. Passive damage is at an all-time high because of the dominance of Sand and entry hazards, and a lot of teams demand his presence. Getting past him is not easy at all unless you're packing a dedicated counter, but fortunately, there are some of those. I know of at least three fail-safe counters (Spiritomb, Sableye, Escavalier), maybe more (Scarf Flygon is not KOed by any of his moves), and Pursuit users can get rid of him for good (50/50 if he's running a Sash). Krook's been seeing a lot of usage lately, Weavile is still around, and Stoutland keeps him in line, along with the rest of offense.


The LO/Sash bluff is his biggest offense, in my opinion, but Focus Sash Alakazam just doesn't bring home the KOs he needs to, making it easier to handle him on the defense regardless. Just keep around a nice special tank with recovery and you shouldn't fear him outlasting your checks. UU from me.

Alakazam should most definitely be BL.

Obviously, we don't want to get in the habit of banning the strongest Pokemon because strongest does not mean broken by any means. With Alakazam, it is very clearly much more than that. Having to play guessing games with attacks, sets, and 50/50 prediction games in order to beat Alakazam is ridiculous, especially because the risk is likely losing two or more Pokemon due to Focus Sash or losing one of your main counters to Life Orb and the reward is just taking care of one offensive Pokemon. While offense is the most disadvantaged team type against Alakazam, stall and balance have a shit load of problems as well.

I'll delve into explanations of each playstyle with calculations if needed.

Offense/Balance

Almost no offensive Pokemon can survive an LO attack from Zam, but more concerning is that most can't even survive an attack from the sash variannt.

Rhyperior is still OHKOed by Grass Knot
Machamp still OHKOed by Psychic
Darmanitan OHKOed
Froslass (Shadow Ball)
Heracross
Chandelure
Durant
Stoutland
Abomasnow
Zoroark
Bisharp
Roserade
Cobalion
Krookodile
Weavile
Houndoom
(etc)

All still OHKOed just with Stealth Rock.

You still have Zapdos, Victini, Mew, Snorlax, and etc who cannot switch in safely because they'll be 2HKOed.

Alakazam with Sash has an extra life, but Life Orb admittedly has more use against stall and balance while still gaining some insane OHKOes on these Pokemon:

Donphan
Tornadus
Flygon
Mismagius
Victini
Zapdos
Golurk
Azelf
Rotom-H
Aerodactyl

I mean Focus Sash is more reliable against offensive teams, reliably taking out at least two Pokemon, but against Life Orb your bulky offense or balance have no chance of taking these attacks. Also note that CB Spiritomb is actually 2HKOed by LO Grass Knot, meaning Spiritomb's not even fully reliable. Focus Blast similarly 2HKOes CB Escavalier, meaning it's not a safe switch in either.

Against Alakazam, offense does not really need a switch but what can even revenge kill it effectively. Scarf Pursuit is probably one of the most idiotic solutions I have heard so far, considering it gives your opponent a free attack against you. If your opponent has remotely close to your skill level, obviously they won't send something in that you can easily handle. They'll send in their Band Cross, Rhyperior, Shell Smasher, etc and make you pay for that. Not to mention, Scarf Pursuiters mean you always need to sacrifice one Pokemon to Alakazam anyway, since he OHKOed all of them with Focus Blast. The only way to beat Alakazam with an offensive team is to severely outplay your opponent with a U-turn / Pursuit user or by keeping momentum and just sweeping through it. The difficulty here is that, assuming your opponent is good, you will not always have momentum, and also consider that Alakazam does a very good job of changing momentum on its own due to the set mystery it provides.

Stall

Stall obviously can take a Psychic here and there, but it really can't do anything to a well-played Alakazam. It's not getting worn down, and that's how stall tends to win. LO Zam 2HKOes these defensively EV'd stall mons:

Mew
Chansey (Psyshock required)
Snorlax
Zapdos
Suicune
Milotic
Raikou
Registeel
Umbreon
Zapdos

Stall has the ability to carry defensive Spiritomb and Escavalier who can more easily deal with Alakazam, however it still forces you to use specific counters that can have a very detrimental effect on your team, and people are well aware of this considering the statistics of Spiritomb specifically.

Moving on....

I think it's very important to remember precedents that have already been set for the UU metagame, and I'm specifically looking at UU gen 4 Cresselia. We had decided as a group that Cresselia was not individually broken, but that it could run a number of sets with a number of different counters even though there still were some hard counters for all sets. Just the threat of having to play a complete guessing game for counters pushed it over the edge. Now to me it seems highly illogical that Alakazam not be held to the same standard, especially since he's way more dangerous to more types of teams than Cresselia was in gen 4, at least in my opinion.

It needs to get the big boot.
____________

Note: calculations easily shown by this calculator http://www.honko.freehosting.com/coverage_calc.html

I believe Alakazam should stay UU.

Alakazam is an extremely dangerous threat in UU, if not the top offensive threat within the current metagame. However, being the top threat does not immediately mean that it's ban-worthy. A lot of the negative sentiment around Alakazam to me is just the inability to deal with certain, specific sets. Offensive teams struggle immensely against Alakazam, specifically Focus Sash and Sub varients, while Stall teams love seeing an Alakazam in the team preview as it's essentially deadweight against the likes of Chansey + Pursuiter (Krookodile, Escavalier, Spiritomb, all common members of a stall team).

I think it's generally important when looking at the possibility of banning anything to look at the effect it's gonna have on the future metagame. When you look at prior UU bans, which should always, I feel, be used as precedent (since they provide a great insight into the process and general thinking), Alakazam does not resonate "pro-ban" as much as something like Staraptor did. Staraptor could clean up basically all kinds of teams, be they high offense, stall, or balanced. Alakazam struggles to achieve these same results; while it is definitely a dangerous offensive threat, it doesn't meet the same level of destructive ability that Staraptor did. Furthermore, Alakazam has not had a drastic effect on the metagame; I would argue Hippowdon or Roserade is more of a suspect than Alakazam simply because of the tectonic change the UU metagame took once the full potential of these Pokemon was realized (which is why Hail has basically died and Spikes are THE METAGAME). While Alakazam takes advantage of these two field conditions with its new Magic Guard ability, there are a handful of cleaners in the metagame that equally benefit, including Darmanitan, Zapdos, etc. Alakazam might be the best abuser of these conditions, but that does not lead to a "pro-ban" conclusion.

In terms of how the metagame would look if Alakazam was banned, I would expect it to be the same Sand + Spikes denominated metagame it is now. Alakazam has no massive impact on the way the metagame is being played. Alakazam simply abuses these two field conditions, which doesn't necessitate a ban in my opinion. Alakazam or no-Alakazam, team building for the metagame is going to be very similar. Alakazam is a dangerous threat no doubt, but even with Alakazam gone I doubt the usage of things like Krookodile, Escavalier, or Spiritomb would dip. The rise in usage of the aformentioned Pokemon is due to other factors, most notably probably being that they are damn good Pokemon.

Look, with Alakazam you have a good idea of what it's gonna do (abuse its special attack stat), but you don't know how it's going to achieve it (Life Orb, CM, Focus Sash, Substitute). You have definitive ways to kill it (Spiritomb, Escavalier, Sableye, Krookodile, Weavile), but once in a while you might get tripped up by the element of surprise. Hey, this kind of reminds me of what you'd call wall-breakers that can run a multitude of sets; for example, Flygon (Physical or Mixed), Kingdra (Physical or Special), Houndoom (Special or Mixed), and Tornadus (Specs or possibly Taunt + Physical). If you mispredict against any of these things, you might lose a Pokemon or two, but that doesn't imply any of these things are broken. The same applies to Alakazam; you have some things you can definitively send out, but when not carrying these counters, you might get messed up by surprise. Ladies and gents, that is the game of Pokemon. Alakazam can possibly beat you with a multitude of sets (the element of surprise), and if it does, you just need to reconsider and revamp your team to be prepared for it next time.

 

[Meru]

I've found Darmanitan to be an amazing revenge killer and wall breaker in this meta. Almost nobody is running bulky waters because of Roserade. Only thing hurting his fame is Sandstorm adding to an abundance of residual damage

 

[WinstonShnozwick]

So alakazam is here to stay. Guess I can abuse the hell out of it now.

On the sandstorm thing, I havent seen an overwhelming number of those teams (like in OU where every otehr team is weather), but the ones that are there, are just too good thanks to hippowdon. I think the culprit is hippo, because he is very bulky and difficult to take down, and hits hard too. He's just too good.

 

[Pocket]

Well, SJCrew and I were discussing about hippo + stoutland / abundance of Spikes, and here are my impressions that I gave him. I'm posting it here, because I want to hear other's feedback. SJCrew is more than welcome to copy-paste his response, too.

---

I agree that it is difficult to check both Stoutland and Hippowdon, so you need separate mons to check them (Heysup would say CBRhyperior, but it actually needs SR + Spikes to achieve the EQ 2HKO on Hippowdon). However, Stoutland is largely a revenge-killer, so it's not like it can switch into Hippowdon's checks, either. Hippowdon also lacks any offensive presence, although it hits drastically harder than Hippopotas, so can't someone switch in like a SD / CB Heracross into Hippowdon and start wrecking shit?

I think the combination of Spikes + Sandstream makes both issues look much more menacing than each one really is. As far as Spikes goes, I think one just needs to assume a layer of Spikes or two as the default condition, much like SR is pretty much assumed to be up.

Although, Spikes + Hippowdon or Hippowdon + Stoutland may not be much of a problem, Spikes + Hippowdon + Stoutland may be the right combination that is really frustrating people right now [kind of analagous to Froslass (aka free Spikes + Snow Cloak) + Abomasnow]. If we really need to ban something, I'd have to say Stoutland is the culprit. Honestly, what does Hippowdon provide other than awesome defense and sand? It's good at taking hits, but it doesn't really dish hits back; I find it hardly threatening, especially with BW UU having plenty of mons to deal with Hippowdon.

Just like Excadrill in OU, I think Stoutland provides sand with the offensive pressure thanks to its blistering Speed boost to truly take advantage of sand's residual damage and Spikes. If you noticed most of your posts about Stoutland, you include Spikes + Sandstream as the common denominator. "With Spikes + Sandstream, it can even pressure mons such as Rhyperior." Spikes is clearly not broken, and not Hippowdon for solely summoning Sandstream. I think Stoutland is the main abuser of this triad situation.

I think removing Hippowdon is knee-jerk reaction, just like how people in OU wanting to ban Drizzle. "Swift Swimmers weren't broken before Drizzle, so it HAS TO BE Drizzle that is breaking Rain." Just b/c Sand w/ Hippopotas was manageable doesn't mean that the newcomer Hippowdon is the culprit to Sand's new-found success. It simply means that Hippopotas was a shitty mon, so people abused the best weather abuser at the time, Abomasnow. Now a sandstorm summoner with more defensive utility comes in, and now Sand blooms and Hail once again takes a back seat. The reason why Stoutland wasn't so threatening is b/c Hippopotas was weak and sand was largely uncommon. As sand as the common condition, Stoutland rips.

Then again, as Heysup concluded, it may very well be that there is nothing broken about Stoutland + Hippowdon. Yes, they are good, but manageable. Stoutland's offense is hardly extraordinary - even with Adamant, it is hitting as hard as a Jolly mon with 114 base Atk. Hippowdon is like Chansey - it walls shit and possesses supportive roles, but it is a momentum killer and easily exploited.

 

[Snunch]

Remember how when hail teams started taking the metagame by storm, Blastoise quickly rose in popularity because it was the only spinner capable of standing up to Froslass? With Roserade on a huge number of top teams, countering the popular spinners and setting up hazards at the same time, the same kind of adaptation is needed again. As the only spinner legal in UU that counters Roserade (outside of Armaldo in the sand I guess?), I think it's Cryogonal's time to shine. I'm not entirely sure what set to run though. Max speed? Max spdef? Physically bulky? Regardless, the metagame has let Cryogonal grow out of its "third-rate spinner that's only usable on hail teams" niche and I expect its usage to rise just like Blastoise did.

 

[casey90]

I've been doing a fair amount of laddering lately, and I'm shocked at how well azumarill has been doing lately, a simple CB set can tear up so many teams by itself, (for the record I use AJ, Waterfall, Superpower, Double-edge) I'm pretty sure it 2hkos the entire current meta with the appropriate move, and can easily clean up weakened teams late game with aqua jet.

 

[Forsety]

@Snunch

I've considered Cryogonal many times for role of Rapid Spinner but I hit the same problem you have and find it a perplexing puzzle honestly so I'm up for some discussion on it. I can't figure out if I'm supposed to EV it offensively, Spd, Def or for S.Def and also it has serious issues with its last move despite the fact it has no coverage anyway.

Recover is basically a given on it, there is no way to drop it, when you have a blatant SR weakness and attacks are flying everywhere and its useful. Rapid Spin is basically a requirement too as its the sole reason you use this guy, so you have your default moveset as Rapid Spin and Recover. Since you would never let any mon be defenseless Ice Beam is a given too.

Then you're left with the last slot? Reflect or Light Screen w/Light Clay? Haze, Confuse Ray or Toxic? But if you're up against a Froslass Hidden Power is basically required. My conclusion so far is speed should be what it takes advantage of first but to what degree and also where all the rest of the EV's go depends on the last move I think.

On the flipside I did find it pairs wonderfully with Qwilfish if you want to play it more defensively if only because its the only thing in existance that isn't annihilated by the ridiculous offensive combo of Fire/Rock/Fighting.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

As the author of the RU analysis for Cryogonal, I will vouch for Cryogonal's abilities which are comparable to Blissey's in OU, although not nearly on the same scale. In RU the Specially Defensive set it its best but I would think a Dual Screens set is better in UU.

And btw, always max SpDef, its Def isnt worth investing in unless your Dual Screening.

 

[Godsend]

Druddigon is very under rated at the moment. CB reaches 558 attack, combined with the few useable steel types in UU and you have a powerhouse staring you down. He's a lot like Esca, a slow, powerful wall breaker. Being able to 2HKO Slowbro without rocks is great too.

 

[sax king]

And it has a fire resistance as well as Sucker Punch, making it a good Chandelure, Alakazam, and Alakazam counter.

 

[Scoopapa]

^^ you forgot about alakazam and alakazam, who it also counters quite well.

Unfortunately CB and Sucker Punch have some issues together. Druddigon's truly shines in Trick Room, though. Godsend, maybe pair it with that Duosion :D.

 

[Godsend]

^^ you forgot about alakazam and alakazam, who it also counters quite well.

Unfortunately CB and Sucker Punch have some issues together. Druddigon's truly shines in Trick Room, though. Godsend, maybe pair it with that Duosion :D.

lol You know me and my Duo. Trick Room Duosion people, give it a shot. It's just as strong as its big brother, just a bit more frail and doesn't have Focus Miss. Other then that, it is really good.

 

[Banedon]

Many of those Zam paragraphs were a bit disappointing. Most people mentioned the big three Zam checks (Spiritomb, Escavalier and Sableye) although nobody mentioned how Sableye doesn't get Pursuit so Zam can switch out for free. Most people mentioned Pursuit, yet nobody mentioned how Focus Sash hard counters Pursuit. Weavile, Krookodile, etc - who cares if they can't OHKO with Pursuit while non-LO Focus Blast KOes them all. Sure it's inaccurate, but it's still 70% chance to hit. In fact 3/7 of the paragraphs didn't even mention Sash.

Close reading the paragraphs:

Now, some people say that running a counter to Alakazam is unreasonable because it's complete dead weight on a team. That's just wrong. If a Pokemon is completely manageable in the metagame (as Alakazam is; something has hard counters then it can be managed), then running a hard counter to it will never be dead weight. Just about every sweeper in every tier in every metagame has required you to run either:
1. A specific counter
2. At least one check, preferably 2
to be beatable in the metagame. Alakazam is no different. If you run a counter, you won't lose a Pokemon. If you run some checks, you might lose one but you won't get swept. All a matter of preference.

If you run a specific counter (one of the big three) then you won't get swept. If you run a check, you CAN get swept. Here's how it happens:

Alakazam switches in, kills something.
You go to your check.
If your check has Pursuit, it's likely weak to Focus Blast. If Alakazam survives the hit with Sash (or simply because Jolly Scarf Hera Pursuit vs. non-switching out Alakazam fails to OHKO) and KOes back then you lose a second Pokemon. That's two Pokemon, and if you just lost a Scarfer then you are in trouble against a big multitude of Pokemon.

Snunch's point that it's not OU and there is no Lucario to set up on choiced Pursuit is a good one, but it should still be noted that there are plenty of deadly Pokemon that can still set up on Pursuit (Venomoth, Omastar) or simply bash something in (CB Rhyperior, CB Heracross). Also this:

To close, I’d just like to add one more point. When considering if a pokemon is broken or not, I always discount arguments that revolve around one side significantly outplaying the other. Arguments like “x pokemon obviously predicts the switch into y and uses z move” and “x pokemon has trouble switching in, but can predict the opposing pokemon using a support move and come in, or it can come in on a predicted double switch” hold absolutely no ground. If one user must significantly predict for a pokemon to be effective, the door is just as open for the other user to predict the prediction, etc. I cannot tell you how many times I have stayed in against Alakazam with my fighting type as my opponent predicts the switch to my pursuiter and uses focus blast. Situations like that simply comes down to who plays better and does not support either side’s case regarding a pokemon’s tiering.

It may be personal preference but I find it hard to ignore a Pokemon that causes a 50/50 every time it switches in. Especially this one. Consider:

In your case -
If Zam uses Psychic, go to Pursuiter.
If Zam uses Focus Blast, stay in with Fighting-type.

In Zam's case -
If he switches to Pursuiter, use Focus Blast.
If he stays in with Fighting-type, use Psychic.
No matter what he does, I can use Sub.
If I have Sash, I can Psychic with little risk.

Clearly Zam has the advantage. Sub and Sash ease prediction significantly to the point that "one user must significantly predict for [Alakazam] to be effective" does not apply.

I'm not much of a big writer, so this'll be brief. My initial plan was to ban Alakazam. It's extremely fast and powerful, and Magic Guard is a blessing. If it can switch in unharmed, you're instantly under pressure, especially if it manages to hide safe behind a Substitute. However, a few things put a stop to it quite handily, due to its awful defenses. Special Defense Escavalier, Spritomb, Sableye, and just about every pursuiter / Scarf mon can revenge it. Yes, sashZam exists, but in my experience it was a lot weaker than LO variants, and wasn't as much of a problem most of the time. Basically, you have to have something that can take a hit from it, and KO back, or outspeed and KO it. That's not as bad as it sounds, though. The reason that it's not that bad is because most of the Pokemon that beat it are pretty good, and have great usefulness outside of countering zam. It can also be played around if you're smart. Most well built teams can usually handle an Alakazam with minimal damage, and you don't have to over focus on it, because it can usually be handled easily by one Pokemon. If I can do it, anyone can! That's why I think it should stay UU. The point I'm trying to anchor is, it does have a few great counters, and is revengable, and just because everyone and their mother doesn't counter it, doesn't mean that it's broken. I'm not denying that it's very powerful, but it's managable if you use your brain.

Props to Moo for being the first person to mention Sash, but the reasoning behind not going for BL is rather sparse. "In my experience it was a lot weaker than LO variants" isn't an argument, because I can (truthfully) say that in my experience Sash Zam was a lot more effective than LO variants. Being able to outspeed and KO, or take a hit and KO, is true enough, but you need examples or you can say the same for Deoxys-A being UU (you can beat Deoxys-A if you outspeed and KO, or can take a hit and KO ...).

Moo alludes to "Pokemon that beat it" and says "[Alakazam] is revengable", but doesn't list examples. I presume the Pokemon that beat it are the same big three (or Snunch's Aerodactyl in sand), but to say that all four are pretty good and have uses outside dealing with Alakazam takes some justification imo. Yes, they aren't useless, but I'm doubtful about Spiritomb's for example in any meta without Alakazam i.e. it's only there for dealing with Alakazam. Sure it covers other threats, but most of them can be better handled by something else. Revenging it ... is a different matter. If you're facing an Alakazam at 100% health and possibly toting a Focus Sash, what revenges it without being obvious and thus easily played around? It's easy to tell if a Pokemon outspeeds Alakazam and therefore switch out. It's also easy to tell if a Pokemon has Pursuit and therefore stay in (this choice is especially easy if Zam has Sash). I guess Pokemon like Crobat and Scarf Flygon can U-turn safely on Alakazam, but they don't kill Alakazam. Since Alakazam unlike other Pokemon cannot be worn down by passive damage, this is a significant thing.

On the subject of Alakazam, I feel as though he's more or less wormed his way into a really convenient metagame for him. Passive damage is at an all-time high because of the dominance of Sand and entry hazards, and a lot of teams demand his presence. Getting past him is not easy at all unless you're packing a dedicated counter, but fortunately, there are some of those. I know of at least three fail-safe counters (Spiritomb, Sableye, Escavalier), maybe more (Scarf Flygon is not KOed by any of his moves), and Pursuit users can get rid of him for good (50/50 if he's running a Sash). Krook's been seeing a lot of usage lately, Weavile is still around, and Stoutland keeps him in line, along with the rest of offense.


The LO/Sash bluff is his biggest offense, in my opinion, but Focus Sash Alakazam just doesn't bring home the KOs he needs to, making it easier to handle him on the defense regardless. Just keep around a nice special tank with recovery and you shouldn't fear him outlasting your checks. UU from me.

I can mostly agree with SJCrew's paragraph, but pointing out a few things: it's actually 70/30 if Zam has a Sash (Focus Blast hit rate), unless the Pursuiter is something like Scarf Heracross when it's 100/0 in favour of Alakazam. Also Scarf Flygon does not OHKO with U-turn while being 2HKOed by Psychic, so if it switches into Sash Alakazam and does not use U-turn it's dead - although personally I'd be inclined to switch Alakazam out and save the Sash. That would lose momentum, but as long as Alakazam has a Sash it'll be very effective later in the game.

Against Alakazam, offense does not really need a switch but what can even revenge kill it effectively. Scarf Pursuit is probably one of the most idiotic solutions I have heard so far, considering it gives your opponent a free attack against you. If your opponent has remotely close to your skill level, obviously they won't send something in that you can easily handle. They'll send in their Band Cross, Rhyperior, Shell Smasher, etc and make you pay for that. Not to mention, Scarf Pursuiters mean you always need to sacrifice one Pokemon to Alakazam anyway, since he OHKOed all of them with Focus Blast. The only way to beat Alakazam with an offensive team is to severely outplay your opponent with a U-turn / Pursuit user or by keeping momentum and just sweeping through it. The difficulty here is that, assuming your opponent is good, you will not always have momentum, and also consider that Alakazam does a very good job of changing momentum on its own due to the set mystery it provides.

Heysup mentions things that can make any Scarf Pursuit pay, which is good. I'll add that if Alakazam didn't have Magic Guard, it can be beaten much easier by offensive teams because they can sacrifice something to it and revenge. Alakazam can switch out, but it's not easy to switch in and it'll be worn down fast. Wear it down enough and it'll be vulnerable to priority. It won't have Sash either, which makes it easy to Pursuit.

Finally ToF's paragraph takes a unique approach. Judging a Pokemon by how the metagame will change without that Pokemon isn't something I do and it isn't in the characteristics of an Uber either, but then I guess to each his own. I can agree that removing Alakazam is less likely to impact the meta as removing Hippowdon. I'll point this out though:

Look, with Alakazam you have a good idea of what it's gonna do (abuse its special attack stat), but you don't know how it's going to achieve it (Life Orb, CM, Focus Sash, Substitute). You have definitive ways to kill it (Spiritomb, Escavalier, Sableye, Krookodile, Weavile), but once in a while you might get tripped up by the element of surprise. Hey, this kind of reminds me of what you'd call wall-breakers that can run a multitude of sets; for example, Flygon (Physical or Mixed), Kingdra (Physical or Special), Houndoom (Special or Mixed), and Tornadus (Specs or possibly Taunt + Physical). If you mispredict against any of these things, you might lose a Pokemon or two, but that doesn't imply any of these things are broken. The same applies to Alakazam; you have some things you can definitively send out, but when not carrying these counters, you might get messed up by surprise. Ladies and gents, that is the game of Pokemon. Alakazam can possibly beat you with a multitude of sets (the element of surprise), and if it does, you just need to reconsider and revamp your team to be prepared for it next time.

The only problem with that is, if you expect a physical Flygon and mispredict vs. a mixed Flygon, you can revenge it and still be in the match. This doesn't happen with Alakazam. Since it can't be worn down, you need Pursuit to eliminate it, but like I wrote before Pursuit is unreliable unless you know it doesn't have Sash, when even then you need to be faster or be able to survive a hit.

I think my biggest disappointment with everyone's paragraphs is that they don't give enough credence to the Sash set. In particular, although many people mentioned how Sash Zam does not get as many KOes (maybe, but I'm happy to switch around until the other team is weakened and then go for the cleanup), but nobody mentioned how Sash Alakazam is the ultimate revenge killer + it's very good at finishing up teams late-game. The ability to survive any single revenge kill attempt is HUGE, and makes all checks to it shaky.

That said, I haven't played any UU games for over a week now, and I'm not about to start - so gl with the tiering and feel free to ignore me :)

 

[Pocket]

Focus Sash Zam doesn't pack a punch. It's main move only having 90 BP doesn't help either. Sash Zam is pretty much dead weight against a team with Escavalier or Spiritomb. Imo, it really needs LO to be threatening. It's cool that Sash Zam provides protection against faster Pursuiters, but that's about it, whereas the loss of destructive power is a larger drawback, imo. I could see why the senators didn't really emphasize the sash set in their explanations.

 

[Heysup]

Rhyperior is still OHKOed by Grass Knot
Machamp still OHKOed by Psychic
Darmanitan OHKOed
Froslass (Shadow Ball)
Heracross
Chandelure
Durant
Stoutland
Abomasnow
Zoroark
Bisharp
Roserade
Cobalion
Krookodile
Weavile
Houndoom
(etc)

I stopped there because the point is made. It's still a deadly Pokemon with deadly coverage moves, deadly power, and most importantly deadly Speed. Sash gives it a second life. You try to revenge kill it with Scarf Darma, you lose a Pokemon. If you try to switch in a fast Pursuit user, you also lose. Anything faster is beaten easily with sash, and then you're stuck with slower Pokemon who are forced to take a hit...if they can.

 

[Shy Glizzy]

I think we all know that Alakazam can OHKO sweepers with super-effective moves. The difference between LO and sash come into play when you are trying to break down mons like Hippodowon or Milotic.

 

[alexwolf]

I think i read it a few times but since i don't remember where i am just going to respond to it.
Max HP Spiritomb survives 2 GK from Focus Sash Zam.
It does not survive 2 GK from LO Zam but it doesn't need to because LO Zam doesn't use GK.
So anyone saying that LO Zam 2hkoes Spiritomb with GK,pls stop it 'cause it doesn't even matter when no one really uses it.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

Alakazam's found a new innovation when it comes to four moveslot syndrome called one-item syndrome.

The reason I didn't mention Focus Sash Alakazam in my paragraphs is because it's walled by a ton of stuff. I promise you I took SashZam into consideration when I submitted my paragraphs, but I remembered that it's pretty much designed to get one kill and then die, just like just about every revenge killer in any metagame.

Sashed Alakazam has little to no sweeping potential because it has the ability to 2KO everything, but will be killed in 2 hits by anything. It literally can't switch into anything, which relegates its function to pure revenge killer. Because of this, it's easier to tell what kind of Alakazam you're facing.

 

[alexwolf]

What Cryogonal has everybody been using?
Enough speed to outspeed base 100s or fully specially defensive?
Or even physically defensive?
Cryogonal has the ability to stop every Roserade out there,only fearing Sleep Powder,while hitting very hard especially with blizzard in hail teams.
I find it very useful in the current stage of the metagame!

 

[666lumberjack]

@above
Actually I believe when I calced it I found offensive roserade could outrun and 2HKO with Leafstorm - and that's assuming you run bulk in stead of speed. There may be a golden ev spread that can east a leaf storm, outrun and ohko, but even then you'll be heavily crippled.