I think he means there were some doubts, about if they are not broken, prior to the bans before them, not that we can never have a desired metagame. But I am going to second the idea of closing the thread :/ the arguments are going in circles now.
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Deoxys-S Tiering Discussion
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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I'm not going through 22 pages of posts (25 ppp) to find this out;
has it been talked about how a ban would affect the metagame at large? not just if deoxys itself is broken? i.e. what does deoxys check or counter?
IMO it's not broken, and to take it out of the metagame would be to let boosting and scarfed sweepers run rampant with no check other than priority, and those that have priority will dominate the metagame.
has it been talked about how a ban would affect the metagame at large? not just if deoxys itself is broken? i.e. what does deoxys check or counter?
IMO it's not broken, and to take it out of the metagame would be to let boosting and scarfed sweepers run rampant with no check other than priority, and those that have priority will dominate the metagame.
I definitely agree with closing this thread early. The conversations are just looping over & over and if anyone that's read all 20+ pages of this thing and is still on the fence after all this, there's nothing anyone could say to change their minds one way or the other at this point since anything and everything that can be said about Deoxys-S has been said already at least once or twice.
On top of that, X5Dragon's got a good point; this really is just becoming a "flame war" as much as I hate that term. It's gone from everyone presenting their own points to everyone just bashing each other's opinions.
On top of that, X5Dragon's got a good point; this really is just becoming a "flame war" as much as I hate that term. It's gone from everyone presenting their own points to everyone just bashing each other's opinions.
I gave a brief yet slightly biased summary of everything said in page 21. What is a balanced metagame? Let's focus on that and then we can not only decide on who to ban but why should we.
A balance metagame, imo, is the one where any play style has a fair chance. What play styles do we have in this metagame?
Weather-less Stall
Weather Stall
Sand
Hail
Sun
Rain
BP
Trick Room
U-Turning
HO
Bulky Offense
That pretty much 99% of most teams being used in OU.
Blaziken made Sun teams superior to all others. Garchomp did the same with Sand Veil. Drizzle + Swift Swim made anyone running anything but rain as a dude swimming against the current. Excadrill made sand teams the dominant force. Thundrus was making Rain a very close second and if he were left and Excadrill banned Rain would had replaced Sand immediately. And now Deo is making HO the superior play style and the evidence shows clearly.
You see nobody gives a damn if for example, D-Nite was used 50% on every and single team, did he give any one playstyle an advantage? No. You can use him in the rain, in the sand, Stall, etc. and still be able to use whatever you want and kill him.
A balance metagame, imo, is the one where any play style has a fair chance. What play styles do we have in this metagame?
Weather-less Stall
Weather Stall
Sand
Hail
Sun
Rain
BP
Trick Room
U-Turning
HO
Bulky Offense
That pretty much 99% of most teams being used in OU.
Blaziken made Sun teams superior to all others. Garchomp did the same with Sand Veil. Drizzle + Swift Swim made anyone running anything but rain as a dude swimming against the current. Excadrill made sand teams the dominant force. Thundrus was making Rain a very close second and if he were left and Excadrill banned Rain would had replaced Sand immediately. And now Deo is making HO the superior play style and the evidence shows clearly.
You see nobody gives a damn if for example, D-Nite was used 50% on every and single team, did he give any one playstyle an advantage? No. You can use him in the rain, in the sand, Stall, etc. and still be able to use whatever you want and kill him.
I agree. I feel like the people left posting are the ones that are only here to present one side of the argument. At this point, nobody is changing their mind. Myself included. And we're not the ones that have to be convinced.
I would like to see a council vote soon. If not, at least a paragraph or two about what their opinions are now. It would be very helpful so we could get to specifics of what we still have to debate.
I would like to see a council vote soon. If not, at least a paragraph or two about what their opinions are now. It would be very helpful so we could get to specifics of what we still have to debate.
What complete legitimacy said.
We're going in circles, people keep misunderstanding things(especially my posts apparently...maybe I just need to make myself clearer when I post here <,<), and it's not getting better. Maybe this thread should just be closed or something.
We're going in circles, people keep misunderstanding things(especially my posts apparently...maybe I just need to make myself clearer when I post here <,<), and it's not getting better. Maybe this thread should just be closed or something.
i would be willing to convince anyone whose minds are tinted blind with the way they see the ou metagame, how it developed and where it stands now, and that it is merely no different in hindsight; just restricted.
if "playstyles" are to be as competitive as one another for the ou metagame to be desirable, after we banned ss + drizzle, we probably shouldve caught on to the fact that by then the more suspects we remove, the more difficult it is to contain the ones who remain in the tier. blaziken and sun; chomp and sand; and then thundurus etc.
thing is, they thrived in the ou metagame but equally dealt with one another to the point where what mattered most was the way you built your team and not the pokemons influence in any given match.
so, garchomp evaded your attack once? wow, blaziken is now at +2 and +1 with one of the best attacking combinations in fire and fighting, with a ridiculously powerful hi jump kick. thundurus sets up a nasty plot and is CAPABLE of sweeping your team, but it can only dream your excadrills' rock slide misses.
but the thing is we still have these types of pokemon and with lots of threats out of the way, deoxys-s supports the dragonites, terrakions, latios', tornadus', etc. of this world. to deal with these threats efficiently, however, we have little choice but to fall back on the situational niches we include in our teams like espeon.
i know its all fun and games when im writing in a way that is open minded to suggest we should perhaps reconsider the way the game is played as a whole, but even i would not like to see rain and swift swim in ou ever again. that was essentially tyranitar and 5 excadrills and we know when its just "too much".
if "playstyles" are to be as competitive as one another for the ou metagame to be desirable, after we banned ss + drizzle, we probably shouldve caught on to the fact that by then the more suspects we remove, the more difficult it is to contain the ones who remain in the tier. blaziken and sun; chomp and sand; and then thundurus etc.
thing is, they thrived in the ou metagame but equally dealt with one another to the point where what mattered most was the way you built your team and not the pokemons influence in any given match.
so, garchomp evaded your attack once? wow, blaziken is now at +2 and +1 with one of the best attacking combinations in fire and fighting, with a ridiculously powerful hi jump kick. thundurus sets up a nasty plot and is CAPABLE of sweeping your team, but it can only dream your excadrills' rock slide misses.
but the thing is we still have these types of pokemon and with lots of threats out of the way, deoxys-s supports the dragonites, terrakions, latios', tornadus', etc. of this world. to deal with these threats efficiently, however, we have little choice but to fall back on the situational niches we include in our teams like espeon.
i know its all fun and games when im writing in a way that is open minded to suggest we should perhaps reconsider the way the game is played as a whole, but even i would not like to see rain and swift swim in ou ever again. that was essentially tyranitar and 5 excadrills and we know when its just "too much".
It is funny that you say that all i said to prove Deoxys-S is the best screener is ''lol Deoxys-S'' when i have given multiple reaosns as to why he is.If you don't care to look for them ok,but don't tell me that i have not given reasnons 'cause i have given plenty.Also there are some instances where you don't need playtesting and theory is enough!
Did we need any playtesting to see that kyogre is Uber?No!
The same way Deoxys-S is so much better as a screener than any other.Just look at the reasons i gave if you don't understand why...
Finally i am not saying that if Deoxys-S goes no other screener will take its place and it will be the end of dual screening but it will be twice more difficult to pull it of without him around.
X5Dragon, I believe that currently the various playstyles that exists are relatively balanced; the boom in HO teams is just a knee-jerk reaction of most players after Excadrill left the scene. The loss of Excadrill made HO teams at an equal standing against Sand Teams, but it hasn't made HO teams overwhelmingly powerful. To me, it's the most straightforward and predictable strategy to beat.
Of course you can't balance all playstyles to the same level. For instance, Hail would always be the minority playstyle, unless we eliminate other playstyles, such as Politoed, Ninetales, Hippowdon, and Tyranitar. What you are suggesting is not probable or even ideal.
The past banned suspects all had a major stranglehold on the OU metagame, restricting us to a few mons that can perfectly deal with them. You can't say the same thing for Deoxys-S. If your team is prepared to deal with opposing Spikers, then you should not have problems with Spike-stacking Deoxys-S. If your team is prepared for Dual Screen HO, then you should be able to deal with Dual Screen Deoxys-S. If you have a solid offensive core to break through walls, then breaking Deoxys-S should not be hard. Unlike past suspects, Deoxys-S doesn't require a specific niche counter to fend off; there are numerous ways to beat Deoxys-S, allowing many teams to handle HO without being forced to add a "Deo-S counter" that does not fit their team.
Of course you can't balance all playstyles to the same level. For instance, Hail would always be the minority playstyle, unless we eliminate other playstyles, such as Politoed, Ninetales, Hippowdon, and Tyranitar. What you are suggesting is not probable or even ideal.
The past banned suspects all had a major stranglehold on the OU metagame, restricting us to a few mons that can perfectly deal with them. You can't say the same thing for Deoxys-S. If your team is prepared to deal with opposing Spikers, then you should not have problems with Spike-stacking Deoxys-S. If your team is prepared for Dual Screen HO, then you should be able to deal with Dual Screen Deoxys-S. If you have a solid offensive core to break through walls, then breaking Deoxys-S should not be hard. Unlike past suspects, Deoxys-S doesn't require a specific niche counter to fend off; there are numerous ways to beat Deoxys-S, allowing many teams to handle HO without being forced to add a "Deo-S counter" that does not fit their team.
As much as I'd like to see same, SAME arguments of Deoxys-S being broken or not being thrown around (oh sure using your speed to set up screens faster than others is too much), I agree with previous posters.
Only a minuscule amount of people are willing to change their opinions on the matter, and, as a result, large portions of this thread resulted in continuous wars with the same, SAME arguments. Quite evidently, some of the arguments presented are simply brushed off. Everything about Deoxys-S must have been said at least twice or more, and yet we aren't painting a solid picture of the metagame here. It's like this: One camp says why something's broken, the other camp else presents solutions to it, the other says "That's preposterous, so it's broken!" and so on. All this for the sake of canceling each threats in the metagame. By now, the council should have the tools to make a decision.
I'll just say my statements on the matter, only to be deflected off with the same conjectures and theorymons. It's a practical Endless Eight. This is why I don't really post in these threads often. Shame this thread is only nine days old.
Only a minuscule amount of people are willing to change their opinions on the matter, and, as a result, large portions of this thread resulted in continuous wars with the same, SAME arguments. Quite evidently, some of the arguments presented are simply brushed off. Everything about Deoxys-S must have been said at least twice or more, and yet we aren't painting a solid picture of the metagame here. It's like this: One camp says why something's broken, the other camp else presents solutions to it, the other says "That's preposterous, so it's broken!" and so on. All this for the sake of canceling each threats in the metagame. By now, the council should have the tools to make a decision.
I'll just say my statements on the matter, only to be deflected off with the same conjectures and theorymons. It's a practical Endless Eight. This is why I don't really post in these threads often. Shame this thread is only nine days old.
Scarfers?
Dragon Tail users?
Just some examples.
And just this, this makes your argument stand out:
However you want to put it, this argument is BS.
You can't do it all on one set, cause if you do go with Spikes/SR/Reflect/Light Screen, you'll get forced out by the slightest suspiscion of Taunt. And how is it unpredictable?
Team Preview already gives you an idea of what set it's utilizing. And on the oft chance you face a non-standard set, chances are it will suck a lot. And if you apply that logic of banning every pokemon utilising unpredictability to the "extreme" to every pokemon in OU, we might as well ban everything having 3 or more "dangerous" sets. There are pokemon who use this unpredictablity a lot better than Deoxys-S in OU and yet they are barely considerd Uber. And of course it will feel broken, because it does it's job good. But just because it does it's job well, doesn't mean it's broken.
Yeah.
Let's take a look at the stages of discussion this thread has been going through.
Step 1: The initial discussion in favor of a Deoxys-S ban.
The people who want Deoxys-S banned (let's call them the 'prosecution' :P) seem to present the following arguments:
- Deoxys-S provides an extremely strong amount of support, getting down several layers of hazards OR both screens up with little effort
- This consequently breaks hyper offense teams that can promptly set up boosts and ravage the opposing team.
(let's call the people who don't want Deoxys-S banned the 'defense')
- Deoxys-S has several counters. You can use Magic Bounce to stop hazards/taunt, and you can just hit the opposing team extremely hard (or use Brick Break lolol) or you can 2HKO Deoxys-S with a fast scarfer/priority, or you can use priority Taunt and completely stop it.
- Furthermore, Deoxys-S's support isn't even necessarily broken. It's easy enough to spin away hazards and the screens do, after all, only last for eight turns. Often times a screens offense user will be sacrificing a third of a team to possibly weaken one or two walls and ends up losing momentum a significant portion of the time after the screens disappear. Also, Deoxys-S isn't setting up hazards AND screens at the same time, creating a "pick your poison" scenario for hyper offense. A team can go without hazards and use screens, obtaining setup opportunities but dooming itself to failure when it can't break that Dragonite/Skarmory/X other wall. Alternatively, a team can forego screens and set up hazards, but this makes it much, much harder to set up and sustain a sweep.
- said counters to Deoxys-S are either uncommon, not good enough for me, or don't fit on my team so i'm too lazy to adapt
- furthermore, while you can counter either one or the other Deoxys-S variant, you can't counter both solidly at the same time with the same Pokemon
- Despite what you say i'm going to continue parroting myself on how hyper offense is broken with Deo-s while offering no new arguments to actually rebut your opinions.
- Deal with it and actually use the Pokemon that can beat Deoxys-S, stop complaining that they are uncommon. They are uncommon because people don't use them, but people don't use them because they are uncommon. e. g. ADAPT JESUS
- Just because you can't counter all sets of a Pokemon at the same time with the same mon doesn't mean it's broken. Good luck countering all Mew sets, lol.
Step 6: Defense repeats itself with the same arguments it initially made to the prosecution's original arguments that the prosecution had made.
End result:
NO YARDAGE GAINED
Also you may have been wondering about where i was going with the 'trial' analogy. The point is, at this point a judge would step in and stop this endless cycle. That is why we have decision-makers, after all. They actually get things done.
lol this is so true. It seems like the defense has better arguments, too. Meanwhile, I've been playing about the ladder with a quick rainstall team (yeah I'm using Golurk as a spin blocker -.-) I put together and haven't had any trouble with those Deo+5 sweeper teams. Politoed is sufficient in forcing Deoxys out with a simple Encore to Spin later. The threat of Scald or Specs Hydro Pump forces them to set up SR or Light Screen first.
Woodchuck...really? This is why taking the "defense" seriously is difficult at times.
You either attack the pro-Uber side(Saying that we're lazy and don't want to adapt just seems ignorant) or provide things that are just inferior options(I.E. MixNite) and still treat them as if they're full stops to anything.
The fact is...you're always at a disadvantage against these predictions wars(with you trying to use Taunt/Encore) with Deo-S, regardless of...whatever you want to do. Why? Because I still freaking did whatever I wanted to do and depending on the pokemon, nothing stops me from using Taunt myself.
Like Metagross said, he uses Encore Politoed, which is all fine and dandy, but I set up my Light Screen, and then what?
Your Politoed is rather forced to use Perish Song/Toxic/Whatever as my Deo-S switches because his attacks are stupidly weak now.
Adding to this, my Deoxys is still healthy, meaning I can just come back whenever I feel like it and set them up.
Let's see, MixNite is inferior to MixMence and we've been through that. Next.
Rotom-W + Scizor Core - I admitted that this could work(unless I felt the need to set up Reflect first upon seeing the core, but I'm not going to take that into consideration here), but worst case scenario(for the Deo team) is that he I up LS/Reflect and after you send in your other pokemon, I send in something to set up on you. Of course, you could send in your check, but see below.
Ex.
-You lead with Rotom-W
-I use LS
-Rotom uses Volt Switch and you send out Scizor
-I switch to Volcarona or w/e I really want and I proceed to set up on your Scizor, but now I have +2 Sp.Def right off the bat with my Deoxys taking minor damage.
Don't even think of leading with Scizor(and using U-turn) unless you want to allow Deoxys to set up BOTH screens or like risking eating a stray HP Fire.
No one is saying "omg crap that sweeps everything, ban it!" or "omg i dont wanna change my teem, ban it!".
We're saying that it's unhealthy for the metagame because it's too demanding just to have a chance to stop its support and its support makes threatening sweepers even harder to deal with(whether it's the LO Revenger, the hazard setter, the Dual Screener, or a mix of them).
You either attack the pro-Uber side(Saying that we're lazy and don't want to adapt just seems ignorant) or provide things that are just inferior options(I.E. MixNite) and still treat them as if they're full stops to anything.
The fact is...you're always at a disadvantage against these predictions wars(with you trying to use Taunt/Encore) with Deo-S, regardless of...whatever you want to do. Why? Because I still freaking did whatever I wanted to do and depending on the pokemon, nothing stops me from using Taunt myself.
Like Metagross said, he uses Encore Politoed, which is all fine and dandy, but I set up my Light Screen, and then what?
Your Politoed is rather forced to use Perish Song/Toxic/Whatever as my Deo-S switches because his attacks are stupidly weak now.
Adding to this, my Deoxys is still healthy, meaning I can just come back whenever I feel like it and set them up.
Let's see, MixNite is inferior to MixMence and we've been through that. Next.
Rotom-W + Scizor Core - I admitted that this could work(unless I felt the need to set up Reflect first upon seeing the core, but I'm not going to take that into consideration here), but worst case scenario(for the Deo team) is that he I up LS/Reflect and after you send in your other pokemon, I send in something to set up on you. Of course, you could send in your check, but see below.
Ex.
-You lead with Rotom-W
-I use LS
-Rotom uses Volt Switch and you send out Scizor
-I switch to Volcarona or w/e I really want and I proceed to set up on your Scizor, but now I have +2 Sp.Def right off the bat with my Deoxys taking minor damage.
Don't even think of leading with Scizor(and using U-turn) unless you want to allow Deoxys to set up BOTH screens or like risking eating a stray HP Fire.
No one is saying "omg crap that sweeps everything, ban it!" or "omg i dont wanna change my teem, ban it!".
We're saying that it's unhealthy for the metagame because it's too demanding just to have a chance to stop its support and its support makes threatening sweepers even harder to deal with(whether it's the LO Revenger, the hazard setter, the Dual Screener, or a mix of them).
You say scarfers but the only viable scarfers that outspeed him are Lati@s,Gengar,Starmie and Terakion of which only Terakion is commonly used.
Also you say DT users.Can you pls mention some DT users in OU?
Ok there is Dragonite,Gyarados and?
Finally on the unpredictability thing u got it all wrong.What i meant is that when you face Deoxys-S you are forced to play conservatively 'cause if you don't you risk losing a poke in the process or letting him setup for free.
And he can abuse the unpredictability that he has,because he has such threatening sets with small number of counters/checks.
Unpredictability is the least that Deoxys-S is accused for.You focus too much on this and lose the point.
The DS and the Hazard setter are the possibly broken sets,and they become even more when you factor its unpredictability.It's not the surprise factor alone that breaks him...
One of the most one sided approach to the matter!Good job!
It is one thing to not agree with someone and it is another thing to not respect his opinion and his arguments.
You say things like ''the pro-ban side wants Deoxys-S banned 'cause they are lazy to adapt'' or ''they don't give examples to back up their claims''.
I know that some people here,including me,may not argue in the best way,but disregarding their examples and ideas which they have multiple times mentioned is just insultive!
Irony is one of the worst kind of arguing,and you made your best to make this thread even worse...
Again good job!
Finally 2 things about the Rotom-W+Scizor combo.
1.They can only prevent Deoxys-S from setting up both screens if Rotom-W is specs and less than 50% of the time.So for example scarf Rotom-W + Bandzor will never prevent Deoxys-S from getting 2 screens or 1 screen + 1 hazard.
Here are the damage calcs:
Specs Modest's Rotom-W's Volt Switch vs Deoxys-S behind LS :
508 Atk vs 432 Def & 304 HP (70 Base Power): 90 - 106 (29.61% - 34.87%)
Band Scizor's BP vs Deoxys-S without Reflect :
591 Atk vs 216 Def & 304 HP (60 Base Power): 177 - 208 (58.22% - 68.42%)
Both pokes have to do near max damage roll to 2hko.And i assumed the most powerful form of that core using specs modest Rotom-W.
2.They are 2 pokes.There is an obvious downside to this.You need 2 slots to cover 1 threat instead of one restricting you even more.
Well Kefka, I might have leant a bit in favor of the defense... but that's what I saw from a lot of people. Not all, but a lot.
My major beef with banning Deoxys-S is that, while it is very, very good at setting up whatever support it brings to the table, that support itself isn't broken. Hazards can be spun and screens certainly don't last forever. Not to be insulting, but spouting phrases like "it's unhealthy for the metagame" when you haven't really shown its support to be gamebreaking in any way. As I said in an earlier post, either you get hazards up and end up getting revenged because of the lack of screens, or you get your screen stalled out and end up dying. Yeah, you weaken the opposing team, but against competent teams being used by competent players, you're basically sacrificing a third of your team to take out one Pokemon and weaken one more... if everything goes right.
Even if Deoxys-S is very, very good at its job, that in no way makes it very, very broken. I can be the BEST burger flipper in the world, and I'm still raking in less cash than the worst CEO in the world.
edit: oh while i'm being ironic
Some sarcastic use of "good job" and then he complains about me using irony... (ps i believe you didn't quite use 'irony' correctly, sarcasm is a better term but hey you aren't apparently a native english speaker so no biggie, i got your point)alexwolf said:
I never said that the pro-ban side never gives examples to back up their claims. Don't put words in my mouth. What I am saying is that both sides are reiterating the same arguments over and over; this debate simply isn't going anywhere. And yes, alexwolf, I never really enjoy reading your posts because they are often incoherent. However, you did a relatively good job getting your point across on that post, so I will sincerely say "good job!".
Yes, I believe a lot of bans are because people are too lazy to adapt. Sue me. I believe the pro-OU side brings up better arguments. Sue me.
Honestly, attacking my posts as 'one-sided' does nothing to disprove them at all... of course it's one-sided as I'm agreeing with one of the sides. How about I attack you for being one-sided as you blindly stick to your own assumptions and debate the smallest of points? BOTH sides are one-sided, and no one is ever really willing to change their stances in these debates. Again, I think AccidentalGreed has made a really illuminating post.
I believe that an arguement made by the "defense was that HO would die without Deoxys-S. It was rebuttal with "there are a multitude of dual screening options for a team, so HO wouldn't die". Just add that to your list :P
Anyway I think we should wait for the new usage statistics to come out before the council makes a decision. Aren't they supposed to come out in the begging of December? The usage statistics will allow us to make a more informed decision and mathmatically show Deoxys-s effect on the metagame. The statistics are whole lot better than "BUT, BUT I SEE DEOXYS ON EVERY TEAM NOW!!11!!" And let us move away from anadoctal evidence. I will be hypocritical here though and give some anedoctal evidence: guys look at the RMT section and note how many teams use Deoxys+5 sweepers. None of the dual screeners/hazard setters are used. BTW I speculate that if the usage statistics have the sets of pokemon as well, we will see that dual screen sets are used on a minisculy small amount of pokemon bar Deoxys, even though they are standard/recommended sets.
Anyway I think we should wait for the new usage statistics to come out before the council makes a decision. Aren't they supposed to come out in the begging of December? The usage statistics will allow us to make a more informed decision and mathmatically show Deoxys-s effect on the metagame. The statistics are whole lot better than "BUT, BUT I SEE DEOXYS ON EVERY TEAM NOW!!11!!" And let us move away from anadoctal evidence. I will be hypocritical here though and give some anedoctal evidence: guys look at the RMT section and note how many teams use Deoxys+5 sweepers. None of the dual screeners/hazard setters are used. BTW I speculate that if the usage statistics have the sets of pokemon as well, we will see that dual screen sets are used on a minisculy small amount of pokemon bar Deoxys, even though they are standard/recommended sets.
"I never see Uxie, so it doesn't matter" is a moot point. No one is denying that its outclassed by Deo-S, and HO, at the moment, is more inclined to use Deoxys. Of Deoxys gets the boot, guess what all those Deo-S will become? It's not like Exca where the only thing remotely like it is Stoutland, and the strategy will die. I just can't see everyone just immediately dropping HO with Deoxys gone.
And what do you mean you don't see hazard setters? Ferrothorn is still common, and it will pretty much always get hazards (don't say you can easily Taunt it, as the defense has said it before and will say it again: wat else is going on a Taunt spree in OU? BulkyDDGyara?
And what do you mean you don't see hazard setters? Ferrothorn is still common, and it will pretty much always get hazards (don't say you can easily Taunt it, as the defense has said it before and will say it again: wat else is going on a Taunt spree in OU? BulkyDDGyara?
Thing is, why should I care if my attacks are weak? I'm crippling your sweepers with scald burn/toxic/perish song/encore set up move, etc. I actually played one of the pro uber users here with this joke team on the ladder (he used a screen deo-s with 5 sweepers too...). Deo-s was a liability for him if anything in our battle. He was forced to sac it early only getting up SR which I spun. He also got up light screen mid game which was useless since I already crippled half his sweepers. :/
We're at 20+ pages and I'm sure we've established how good that support really is. After screens, your entire team is basically at +2 in both defenses.
You know how deadly Dnite is, right? Everyone does.
Now, imagine being completely unable to even 2HKO it unless you use super powerful Ice attacks.
Max Attack CB Mamoswine fails to OHKO 0/0 Dnite with Icicle Crash with MS + Reflect and you can rest assured Mamoswine isn't going to survive another turn.
Your only option is basically Skarmory and hope that WW favors you because not even Scarf Latios can OHKO it after a LS.
I don't even want to think about a Volcarona with Dual Screen support if you lack Scarf Terrakion(surprisingly, after Reflect, Jolly Scarf Terrakion fails to OHKO 0/0 Volcarona if it carries a Rock-resist Berry, not that it matters though).
Oh, what about Terrakion himself! Look at how he can beat pretty much any physical wall in OU with his STABs. Now add Screens to his already decent bulk.
Now, don't get me wrong, I'm NOT saying it's an auto-lose against Deoxys-S + 5 sweepers/whatever you run.
What I AM saying is that you lose momentum and there's almost nothing you can do about it. Even your "counters" fail to stop it.
At least with Uxie, Deo-D, Espeon, etc. you can Taunt them before they start or you can run a hard-hitting scarfer that doesn't become useless after wards OR you can just naturally out speed some of them.
Finally, none of the other screeners have SR + Spikes or even good offensive options. The best offensive screener(other than Deo-S) out there is Espeon, but his coverage is so lacking(and he's a lot more frail than Deo-S too) that you might as well not even rely on it.
Now, you can't tell me that 5-6 is bad for the Deo user when said Deo user just put your entire team at -2/-2 offenses for 8 turns and possibly killed one of your own pokemon in the process.
It's like in...Chess <,<
Yes, I just sacrificed my Rook, but in the process, I have just weakened you considerably and I have two mating threats(mating = checkmate...I'm not trying to sound dirty or anything, that's the actual term) so you're automatically put on the defensive and I can take advantage of that weakness. You can still win by playing correctly, but it's an uphill battle.
The difference between Chess and Pokemon is that I could actually stop that disadvantage earlier, while in Pokemon, I have very few options against it.
You can't cripple anything if the sweeper doesn't give a rat's ass about that certain status(or if you get Taunted, your only option is...Scald)
Could you please post the battle here if you saved it? I'd also like to know WHO you fought.
My only problem was that your post was supposed to sum up what has been said 'till now.
If i have done a small paragraph to explain whatever has been said 'till now i wouldn't be sarcastic or ironic to the other side.I would try to be as much objective as i could.
Of 'course either of us is entitled to his opinion and this is perfectly fine!
But when you are doing a synopsis of what has been said try being less hostile and more impartial.Not for me,which you don't believe that i am a good poster,but for the posters that you respect from the pro-ban side and have posted here.
Because by mocking the entire pro-ban side you dishonest and mock the good posters also.
That was my point!
Myzozoa under one of my alts. I didn't save the log...he was in a hurry to leave after our battle ended (this was yesterday, btw). But I'm probably the only one using golurk in OU so he'll probably remember. :p
Also, haxorus/Salamence/Dragonite do care about status. They're so weak without initial set up, too so it wasn't hard to spread the burn on half his team with chansey wish support. Encore/perish song made sure I controlled the battle the whole time.
They do, but NP Lucario, for example, doesn't care about Toxic and Burn is only a minor annoyance(and relying on it, even with Scald's haxyness, isn't too great IMO).
Encore + Perish Song is annoying, I can't argue that. But what do you do against offensive sets? What if you Encore Spikes? What happens when you get inevitably forced out? Deoxys is still healthy and can come in whenever he feels like it.
Thing is, I headed into the battle having a good idea his Deoxys was DS, and I was correct. Spikes would have been a minor annoyance considering Tentacruel is a really good Spinner in the rain. Deoxys can't come in whenever it feels like it. It risks getting burned, poisoned, and hurt by boosted water attacks. Lucario is easy to handle with Dragonite, Tentacruel, NP can be encored, Perish Song, etc. If it Aura spheres on the Encore big deal. I get a free switch into my Dragonite, and can wish later to heal my Politoed.
Edit: Besides, most DS HO teams go all out physical or they lose their effectiveness (one can go all out special, too, but that's generally considered inferior in this metagame imo).
Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could have been. What I said was that the people in defense of keeping Deoxys OU said "hyper offense would die" My rebuttal was that there were a multitude of other screeners to choose from so HO as a playstyle wouldn't die. This was just a response about woodchuck's portrayl of us wanting to ban stuff not giving good reasons.
Obviously there are hazard setters everywhere (n shit sherlock kinda level :p) What I meant was a lead hazard setter for HO. Yes I know hazard leads aren't used much anymore because of team preview. But what I mean are fast hazard setters for HO. This a lot harder to prove than DS aspect since those kind of sets aren't used much anymore, but they are still out there and at least should have some niche. Really the only ones I can think of are SR aero, SR Azelf, Spikes Frosslass.
My point is really that Deoxys outclass them [all] pretty much, with the only thing having some competition is DS espeon for DS sets (mind you espeon is not as bulky). Ultimatly this is what I find disconcerning and why I remain in the ban camp. I'm not arguinh for diversity I'm just saying I find it odd that one poke just outclasses a huge amounts of set.
And to those saying "just put this on your team; your just lazy" that was the stuff spouted for excadrill/thunderus. Just replace it with "gliscor/skarmory/conkledurr" and "gastrodon/starmie".
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