I think he means there were some doubts, about if they are not broken, prior to the bans before them, not that we can never have a desired metagame. But I am going to second the idea of closing the thread :/ the arguments are going in circles now.
It is funny that you say that all i said to prove Deoxys-S is the best screener is ''lol Deoxys-S'' when i have given multiple reaosns as to why he is.If you don't care to look for them ok,but don't tell me that i have not given reasnons 'cause i have given plenty.Also there are some instances where you don't need playtesting and theory is enough!Have you actually tested it? Testing > theorymon in every possible situation. And all your argument against other screeners is (and pretty much always has been) "lololol Deoxys is better!"
And I've had it to hell with that last statement. Remember when Sun offense was king of OU with Blaziken leading the pack? And remember how Sand offense with Exca picked up a second after Blaziken got the boot? And remember when Dragonite wasn't number 1 in OU? Every single ban made this gen has had a replacement, why the hell wouldn't Deoxys (and please, more or a counterargument than "they're not as good as Deoxys)?
EDIT: I didn't mean as suspect, I meant as a DS on HO teams. Hopefully, Uxie will never be deemed suspect, but saying that no screener has a chance of replacing deoxys on teams is what alexwolf is saying. And Volcarona isn't exactly a supporter.
Scarfers?It seems logical to me that you don't find Deoxys-S broken when you can't recognize his importance at HO teams.
You even believe that if Deoxys-S wasn't around another screenr would just take its place,while this is so obviosuly wrong.
So while i get why you don't find him broken(you don't get his importance as a screener combined with his other very good sets and versatility)
you cannot say anymore that reasons have not been given to you to explain you Deoxys-S brokeness.You just don't get them or don't agree with them.
Finally you can always go and ask a HO offensive player to talk to you about Deoxys-S.Not about his brokeness,because this is arguable,but about the difference between him and other screeners...
Haxorus can even use Dragon Claw if it is at +2,and kill almost everything while not getting locked.So when your Ferro comes in it will simply get ohkoed by Brick Break.
Anyway i am going to repeat the reasons that,imo,make Deoxys-S broken.
1.His DS screen is his best set and the one i find to be broken.It offers immense support WHILE at the same time can setup both entry hazards.No other screener comes even close on doing what Deoxys-S does for offensive teams.
2.His hazards setter set is just a little bit less threatening but very dangerous as well.Again this set helps greatly offensive team with the entry hazards it sets helping sweepers to sweep.
Deoxys-S as a hazard layer will MOST of the time get 2 layer of entry hazrads up which is all an offensive team needs to break through walls and counters.Also Deoxys-S holds a great deal of unpredictability which allows him to ohko common spinners or counters(TTar,Starmie,Tentacruel etc).This makes the opponent more conservative when facing Deoxys-S,forcing more switches and thus giving more free turns for Deoxys-S to lay hazards.
Finally even after Deoxys-S dies the hazards that he put are not easy to get rid of since offensive teams don't leave you too much space to react.
3.When taking the LO cleaner,which is a very good set but not broken like the other 2 sets,into account you find that Deoxys-S runs 3 very good sets,each of them having different counters and each of them being very destructive and dangerous.
So even if the hazard layer set or the DS set weren't broken on their own,if you combine them alltogether they create a broken result.
Finally to also cleat this up i want everyone on the pro-OU side to tell me some counters or ways to reliably beat the DS set,which means giving to Deoxys-S only 1 turn of setup.
However you want to put it, this argument is BS.So even if the hazard layer set or the DS set weren't broken on their own,if you combine them alltogether they create a broken result.
Yeah.As much as I'd like to see same, SAME arguments of Deoxys-S being broken or not being thrown around (oh sure using your speed to set up screens faster than others is too much), I agree with previous posters.
Only a minuscule amount of people are willing to change their opinions on the matter, and, as a result, large portions of this thread resulted in continuous wars with the same, SAME arguments. Quite evidently, some of the arguments presented are simply brushed off. Everything about Deoxys-S must have been said at least twice or more, and yet we aren't painting a solid picture of the metagame here. It's like this: One camp says why something's broken, the other camp else presents solutions to it, the other says "That's preposterous, so it's broken!" and so on. All this for the sake of canceling each threats in the metagame. By now, the council should have the tools to make a decision.
I'll just say my statements on the matter, only to be deflected off with the same conjectures and theorymons. It's a practical Endless Eight. This is why I don't really post in these threads often. Shame this thread is only nine days old.
Yeah.
Let's take a look at the stages of discussion this thread has been going through.
Step 1: The initial discussion in favor of a Deoxys-S ban.
The people who want Deoxys-S banned (let's call them the 'prosecution' :P) seem to present the following arguments:
Step 2: Counterargument from the pro-OU side.
- Deoxys-S provides an extremely strong amount of support, getting down several layers of hazards OR both screens up with little effort
- This consequently breaks hyper offense teams that can promptly set up boosts and ravage the opposing team.
(let's call the people who don't want Deoxys-S banned the 'defense')
Step 3: Rebuttal from the prosecution.
- Deoxys-S has several counters. You can use Magic Bounce to stop hazards/taunt, and you can just hit the opposing team extremely hard (or use Brick Break lolol) or you can 2HKO Deoxys-S with a fast scarfer/priority, or you can use priority Taunt and completely stop it.
- Furthermore, Deoxys-S's support isn't even necessarily broken. It's easy enough to spin away hazards and the screens do, after all, only last for eight turns. Often times a screens offense user will be sacrificing a third of a team to possibly weaken one or two walls and ends up losing momentum a significant portion of the time after the screens disappear. Also, Deoxys-S isn't setting up hazards AND screens at the same time, creating a "pick your poison" scenario for hyper offense. A team can go without hazards and use screens, obtaining setup opportunities but dooming itself to failure when it can't break that Dragonite/Skarmory/X other wall. Alternatively, a team can forego screens and set up hazards, but this makes it much, much harder to set up and sustain a sweep.
Step 4: Rebuttal from the defense.
- said counters to Deoxys-S are either uncommon, not good enough for me, or don't fit on my team so i'm too lazy to adapt
- furthermore, while you can counter either one or the other Deoxys-S variant, you can't counter both solidly at the same time with the same Pokemon
- Despite what you say i'm going to continue parroting myself on how hyper offense is broken with Deo-s while offering no new arguments to actually rebut your opinions.
Step 5: Prosecution repeats itself and basically ignores the defense.
- Deal with it and actually use the Pokemon that can beat Deoxys-S, stop complaining that they are uncommon. They are uncommon because people don't use them, but people don't use them because they are uncommon. e. g. ADAPT JESUS
- Just because you can't counter all sets of a Pokemon at the same time with the same mon doesn't mean it's broken. Good luck countering all Mew sets, lol.
Step 6: Defense repeats itself with the same arguments it initially made to the prosecution's original arguments that the prosecution had made.
End result:
NO YARDAGE GAINED
Also you may have been wondering about where i was going with the 'trial' analogy. The point is, at this point a judge would step in and stop this endless cycle. That is why we have decision-makers, after all. They actually get things done.
You say scarfers but the only viable scarfers that outspeed him are Lati@s,Gengar,Starmie and Terakion of which only Terakion is commonly used.Scarfers?
Dragon Tail users?
Just some examples.
And just this, this makes your argument stand out:
However you want to put it, this argument is BS.
You can't do it all on one set, cause if you do go with Spikes/SR/Reflect/Light Screen, you'll get forced out by the slightest suspiscion of Taunt. And how is it unpredictable?
Team Preview already gives you an idea of what set it's utilizing. And on the oft chance you face a non-standard set, chances are it will suck a lot. And if you apply that logic of banning every pokemon utilising unpredictability to the "extreme" to every pokemon in OU, we might as well ban everything having 3 or more "dangerous" sets. There are pokemon who use this unpredictablity a lot better than Deoxys-S in OU and yet they are barely considerd Uber. And of course it will feel broken, because it does it's job good. But just because it does it's job well, doesn't mean it's broken.
One of the most one sided approach to the matter!Good job!Yeah.
Let's take a look at the stages of discussion this thread has been going through.
Step 1: The initial discussion in favor of a Deoxys-S ban.
The people who want Deoxys-S banned (let's call them the 'prosecution' :P) seem to present the following arguments:
Step 2: Counterargument from the pro-OU side.
- Deoxys-S provides an extremely strong amount of support, getting down several layers of hazards OR both screens up with little effort
- This consequently breaks hyper offense teams that can promptly set up boosts and ravage the opposing team.
(let's call the people who don't want Deoxys-S banned the 'defense')
Step 3: Rebuttal from the prosecution.
- Deoxys-S has several counters. You can use Magic Bounce to stop hazards/taunt, and you can just hit the opposing team extremely hard (or use Brick Break lolol) or you can 2HKO Deoxys-S with a fast scarfer/priority, or you can use priority Taunt and completely stop it.
- Furthermore, Deoxys-S's support isn't even necessarily broken. It's easy enough to spin away hazards and the screens do, after all, only last for eight turns. Often times a screens offense user will be sacrificing a third of a team to possibly weaken one or two walls and ends up losing momentum a significant portion of the time after the screens disappear. Also, Deoxys-S isn't setting up hazards AND screens at the same time, creating a "pick your poison" scenario for hyper offense. A team can go without hazards and use screens, obtaining setup opportunities but dooming itself to failure when it can't break that Dragonite/Skarmory/X other wall. Alternatively, a team can forego screens and set up hazards, but this makes it much, much harder to set up and sustain a sweep.
Step 4: Rebuttal from the defense.
- said counters to Deoxys-S are either uncommon, not good enough for me, or don't fit on my team so i'm too lazy to adapt
- furthermore, while you can counter either one or the other Deoxys-S variant, you can't counter both solidly at the same time with the same Pokemon
- Despite what you say i'm going to continue parroting myself on how hyper offense is broken with Deo-s while offering no new arguments to actually rebut your opinions.
Step 5: Prosecution repeats itself and basically ignores the defense.
- Deal with it and actually use the Pokemon that can beat Deoxys-S, stop complaining that they are uncommon. They are uncommon because people don't use them, but people don't use them because they are uncommon. e. g. ADAPT JESUS
- Just because you can't counter all sets of a Pokemon at the same time with the same mon doesn't mean it's broken. Good luck countering all Mew sets, lol.
Step 6: Defense repeats itself with the same arguments it initially made to the prosecution's original arguments that the prosecution had made.
End result:
NO YARDAGE GAINED
Also you may have been wondering about where i was going with the 'trial' analogy. The point is, at this point a judge would step in and stop this endless cycle. That is why we have decision-makers, after all. They actually get things done.
Well Kefka, I might have leant a bit in favor of the defense... but that's what I saw from a lot of people. Not all, but a lot.Woodchuck...really? This is why taking the "defense" seriously is difficult at times.
You either attack the pro-Uber side(Saying that we're lazy and don't want to adapt just seems ignorant) or provide things that are just inferior options(I.E. MixNite) and still treat them as if they're full stops to anything.
The fact is...you're always at a disadvantage against these predictions wars(with you trying to use Taunt/Encore) with Deo-S, regardless of...whatever you want to do. Why? Because I still freaking did whatever I wanted to do and depending on the pokemon, nothing stops me from using Taunt myself.
Like Metagross said, he uses Encore Politoed, which is all fine and dandy, but I set up my Light Screen, and then what?
Your Politoed is rather forced to use Perish Song/Toxic/Whatever as my Deo-S switches because his attacks are stupidly weak now.
Adding to this, my Deoxys is still healthy, meaning I can just come back whenever I feel like it and set them up.
Let's see, MixNite is inferior to MixMence and we've been through that. Next.
Rotom-W + Scizor Core - I admitted that this could work(unless I felt the need to set up Reflect first upon seeing the core, but I'm not going to take that into consideration here), but worst case scenario(for the Deo team) is that he I up LS/Reflect and after you send in your other pokemon, I send in something to set up on you. Of course, you could send in your check, but see below.
Ex.
-You lead with Rotom-W
-I use LS
-Rotom uses Volt Switch and you send out Scizor
-I switch to Volcarona or w/e I really want and I proceed to set up on your Scizor, but now I have +2 Sp.Def right off the bat with my Deoxys taking minor damage.
Don't even think of leading with Scizor(and using U-turn) unless you want to allow Deoxys to set up BOTH screens or like risking eating a stray HP Fire.
No one is saying "omg crap that sweeps everything, ban it!" or "omg i dont wanna change my teem, ban it!".
We're saying that it's unhealthy for the metagame because it's too demanding just to have a chance to stop its support and its support makes threatening sweepers even harder to deal with(whether it's the LO Revenger, the hazard setter, the Dual Screener, or a mix of them).
Some sarcastic use of "good job" and then he complains about me using irony... (ps i believe you didn't quite use 'irony' correctly, sarcasm is a better term but hey you aren't apparently a native english speaker so no biggie, i got your point)alexwolf said:One of the most one sided approach to the matter!Good job!
It is one thing to not agree with someone and it is another thing to not respect his opinion and his arguments.
You say things like ''the pro-ban side wants Deoxys-S banned 'cause they are lazy to adapt'' or ''they don't give examples to back up their claims''.
I know that some people here,including me,may not argue in the best way,but disregarding their examples and ideas which they have multiple times mentioned is just insultive!
Irony is one of the worst kind of arguing,and you made your best to make this thread even worse...
Again good job!
Only a minuscule amount of people are willing to change their opinions on the matter, and, as a result, large portions of this thread resulted in continuous wars with the same, SAME arguments.
Like Metagross said, he uses Encore Politoed, which is all fine and dandy, but I set up my Light Screen, and then what?
Your Politoed is rather forced to use Perish Song/Toxic/Whatever as my Deo-S switches because his attacks are stupidly weak now.
Adding to this, my Deoxys is still healthy, meaning I can just come back whenever I feel like it and set them up.
Let's see, MixNite is not inferior to MixMence and we've been through that. Next.
Well Kefka, I might have leant a bit in favor of the defense... but that's what I saw from a lot of people. Not all, but a lot.
My major beef with banning Deoxys-S is that, while it is very, very good at setting up whatever support it brings to the table, that support itself isn't broken. Hazards can be spun and screens certainly don't last forever. Not to be insulting, but spouting phrases like "it's unhealthy for the metagame" when you haven't really shown its support to be gamebreaking in any way. As I said in an earlier post, either you get hazards up and end up getting revenged because of the lack of screens, or you get your screen stalled out and end up dying. Yeah, you weaken the opposing team, but against competent teams being used by competent players, you're basically sacrificing a third of your team to take out one Pokemon and weaken one more... if everything goes right.
Even if Deoxys-S is very, very good at its job, that in no way makes it very, very broken. I can be the BEST burger flipper in the world, and I'm still raking in less cash than the worst CEO in the world.
Thing is, why should I care if my attacks are weak? I'm crippling your sweepers with scald burn/toxic/perish song/encore set up move, etc. I actually played one of the pro uber users here with this joke team on the ladder (he used a screen deo-s with 5 sweepers too...). Deo-s was a liability for him if anything in our battle. He was forced to sac it early only getting up SR which I spun. He also got up light screen mid game which was useless since I already crippled half his sweepers. :/
My only problem was that your post was supposed to sum up what has been said 'till now.Well Kefka, I might have leant a bit in favor of the defense... but that's what I saw from a lot of people. Not all, but a lot.
My major beef with banning Deoxys-S is that, while it is very, very good at setting up whatever support it brings to the table, that support itself isn't broken. Hazards can be spun and screens certainly don't last forever. Not to be insulting, but spouting phrases like "it's unhealthy for the metagame" when you haven't really shown its support to be gamebreaking in any way. As I said in an earlier post, either you get hazards up and end up getting revenged because of the lack of screens, or you get your screen stalled out and end up dying. Yeah, you weaken the opposing team, but against competent teams being used by competent players, you're basically sacrificing a third of your team to take out one Pokemon and weaken one more... if everything goes right.
Even if Deoxys-S is very, very good at its job, that in no way makes it very, very broken. I can be the BEST burger flipper in the world, and I'm still raking in less cash than the worst CEO in the world.
edit: oh while i'm being ironic
Some sarcastic use of "good job" and then he complains about me using irony... (ps i believe you didn't quite use 'irony' correctly, sarcasm is a better term but hey you aren't apparently a native english speaker so no biggie, i got your point)
I never said that the pro-ban side never gives examples to back up their claims. Don't put words in my mouth. What I am saying is that both sides are reiterating the same arguments over and over; this debate simply isn't going anywhere. And yes, alexwolf, I never really enjoy reading your posts because they are often incoherent. However, you did a relatively good job getting your point across on that post, so I will sincerely say "good job!".
Yes, I believe a lot of bans are because people are too lazy to adapt. Sue me. I believe the pro-OU side brings up better arguments. Sue me.
Honestly, attacking my posts as 'one-sided' does nothing to disprove them at all... of course it's one-sided as I'm agreeing with one of the sides. How about I attack you for being one-sided as you blindly stick to your own assumptions and debate the smallest of points? BOTH sides are one-sided, and no one is ever really willing to change their stances in these debates. Again, I think AccidentalGreed has made a really illuminating post.
We're at 20+ pages and I'm sure we've established how good that support really is. After screens, your entire team is basically at +2 in both defenses.
You know how deadly Dnite is, right? Everyone does.
Now, imagine being completely unable to even 2HKO it unless you use super powerful Ice attacks.
Max Attack CB Mamoswine fails to OHKO 0/0 Dnite with Icicle Crash with MS + Reflect and you can rest assured Mamoswine isn't going to survive another turn.
Your only option is basically Skarmory and hope that WW favors you because not even Scarf Latios can OHKO it after a LS.
I don't even want to think about a Volcarona with Dual Screen support if you lack Scarf Terrakion(surprisingly, after Reflect, Jolly Scarf Terrakion fails to OHKO 0/0 Volcarona if it carries a Rock-resist Berry, not that it matters though).
Oh, what about Terrakion himself! Look at how he can beat pretty much any physical wall in OU with his STABs. Now add Screens to his already decent bulk.
Now, don't get me wrong, I'm NOT saying it's an auto-lose against Deoxys-S + 5 sweepers/whatever you run.
What I AM saying is that you lose momentum and there's almost nothing you can do about it. Even your "counters" fail to stop it.
At least with Uxie, Deo-D, Espeon, etc. you can Taunt them before they start or you can run a hard-hitting scarfer that doesn't become useless after wards OR you can just naturally out speed some of them.
Finally, none of the other screeners have SR + Spikes or even good offensive options. The best offensive screener(other than Deo-S) out there is Espeon, but his coverage is so lacking(and he's a lot more frail than Deo-S too) that you might as well not even rely on it.
Now, you can't tell me that 5-6 is bad for the Deo user when said Deo user just put your entire team at -2/-2 offenses for 8 turns and possibly killed one of your own pokemon in the process.
It's like in...Chess <,<
Yes, I just sacrificed my Rook, but in the process, I have just weakened you considerably and I have two mating threats(mating = checkmate...I'm not trying to sound dirty or anything, that's the actual term) so you're automatically put on the defensive and I can take advantage of that weakness. You can still win by playing correctly, but it's an uphill battle.
The difference between Chess and Pokemon is that I could actually stop that disadvantage earlier, while in Pokemon, I have very few options against it.
You can't cripple anything if the sweeper doesn't give a rat's ass about that certain status(or if you get Taunted, your only option is...Scald)
Could you please post the battle here if you saved it? I'd also like to know WHO you fought.
Myzozoa under one of my alts. I didn't save the log...he was in a hurry to leave after our battle ended (this was yesterday, btw). But I'm probably the only one using golurk in OU so he'll probably remember. :p
Also, haxorus/Salamence/Dragonite do care about status. They're so weak without initial set up, too so it wasn't hard to spread the burn on half his team with chansey wish support. Encore/perish song made sure I controlled the battle the whole time.
They do, but NP Lucario, for example, doesn't care about Toxic and Burn is only a minor annoyance(and relying on it, even with Scald's haxyness, isn't too great IMO).
Encore + Perish Song is annoying, I can't argue that. But what do you do against offensive sets? What if you Encore Spikes? What happens when you get inevitably forced out? Deoxys is still healthy and can come in whenever he feels like it.
"I never see Uxie, so it doesn't matter" is a moot point. No one is denying that its outclassed by Deo-S, and HO, at the moment, is more inclined to use Deoxys. Of Deoxys gets the boot, guess what all those Deo-S will become? It's not like Exca where the only thing remotely like it is Stoutland, and the strategy will die. I just can't see everyone just immediately dropping HO with Deoxys gone.
And what do you mean you don't see hazard setters? Ferrothorn is still common, and it will pretty much always get hazards (don't say you can easily Taunt it, as the defense has said it before and will say it again: wat else is going on a Taunt spree in OU? BulkyDDGyara?