np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 6 - Enter Sandman

[Arcticblast]

I won't really participate in the test, but I'll still be following this thread. From what I remember from the little I battled in the Rough Skin test, Donphan makes a nice check to Garchomp with its high defense + Ice Shard.

PDC, there's also the option of Sand Stream + Sand Veil complex ban.

 

[Electrolyte]

Sand Stream and Sand Veil...
I don't really think that will work as well as simply banning Sand Veil. The problem with this complex ban is the fact that Sand Veil out of Sand is still better than Rough Skin (imo). Here's my proof:

1. First of all, Sand is common enough for Chomp to be able to abuse it around 35% of the time. If your opponent happens to carry Sand, then they're at a huge disadvantage should you use Chomp. This will surely discourage many players from using Sand, possibly causing a minor disturbance in the metagame. Backfire.

2. Chomp only needs sand because of it's ability. There really isn't any other benefit, unlike Swift Swim+power boost, or Chlorophyll+Solarbeam. Banning Sand with Chomp will not really affect its usefulness or not, because its only boost is in evasion. I'm not saying that this is a small advantage, but compared to Swift Swim, well, who knows. It's not as if taking Sand away is going to make much of an impact, because often times Sand will be provided for you.

Of course, there is a fine line between the difference in advantage between Rough Skin and SV+no sand. It depends on the amount of sand usage, which is a lot right now, making SV+no sand still a little bit better than RS, imo. Of course, making a complex ban like this could decrease the usage of Sand and make RS better, but is this what we really want?

 

[alkinesthetase]

35%? that is an astoundingly high number compared to what august statistics show:

sand..........................16.073%

and don't even start on the percentage of sand usage in this ladder. everyone and their mother is testing garchomp and everyone wants to get the chance to hax people to death with subsd chomp at least once in their life. EVERYONE is running sand. (exaggeration) the sand percentage is going to be way higher than it would be in a regular environment - by its very nature, the suspect test system incorporates this skew. in fact, even on the suspect ladder where sand veil was banned and garchomp was legal, sand only saw 23% usage. still not 35%. and on top of that chomp needs to actually score a sand veil miss for this to pay off.

as for point #2, i have difficulty following. your point is that chomp doesn't really need sand except for veil, yes? so it could really get away with running veil, even if there was no sand? well this point applies to rough skin just as well, even more so if anything because rough skin outclasses unactivated sand veil.

and the last question seems irrelevant. whether we ban ss+veil or all veil, sand still suffers from the loss of veil chomp. in fact, without an activated veil, the garchomp discussion thread suggests that the best weather for chomp is actually sun. yeah. do we want to make sun any better? there are probably a million answers to the question, but none of them matter in the context of this thread. that's a topic for another suspect test.

 

[TheStarRapper]

One thing I've noticed while playing is that because quite a few people expect Garchomp to be on their opponents team, they don't even pack Chomp themselves and instead design Anti-Meta teams. I mean, probably 20% of the matches I've played are people abusing Weather and Non-weather: Sans Chomp. I have not used Garchomp on my ladder teams yet, most likely because I have yet to make a good team to build around him as I'd rather not just slap him on. Maybe he is that good, but it will probably be later in the test that I actually start using him myself. Like they say to new surgeons: watch one, do one, teach one.

While I have mostly run Sun and Hail to negate Sandstorm, I remember playing one match where I was getting absolutely Curb-Stomped, and my opponent and I tested out If I would actually hit subs with my last mon. I ended up hitting every single sub, we laughed and he outraged me cleanly. Probability is a strange thing.

That's my experience anyway. I'm not trying to be contrarian to the above post, as most opponents do run Chomp. Just doing my best to analyze the flip side of the affair.

 

[Stone RG]

Being uncompetitive doesn't necessitate a ban. Acupressure and Quick Claw are about as uncompetitive as it gets, but under normal circumstances they simply aren't effective enough to make a noticeable impact on the flow of battle. If you used AncientPower Omastar, more often than not it would prove to be a slightly weaker HP Rock Omastar. Although, in a few circumstances, it would get a fantastic boost, and even less times than that it would get a nearly game-winning boost with +2 or +3 to all stats. Even though AncientPower could win you a game, it doesn't win enough games to be thought of as broken, so it won't be banned. A label of competitive or uncompetitive is only the first step in making the decision of whether or not something should be banned

Sand Veil doesn't work most of the time either, yet people still use it over a consistent ability that needs NO field conditions whatsoever, the difference between broken and uncompetitive is that the the former is something that overcentralizes the metagame or is difficult to counter, but it takes skill to use it, for example you won't be getting swept by a physical Darkrai anytime soon, yet we banned it him as a whole. The latter, on the other hand, takes absolutely no kind of skill to use (don't put Substitute in this topic, that is a form of abusing), it just rolls on luck, something we try to reduce as much as possible, like Sand Veil.

 

[Danger Mouse]

So far, I've had several battles decided by a crucial sand veil miss, whether on my side or that of my opponent. I think the opportunity to test this is very helpful, as it really brings to light how broken sand veil really is: badly, badly broken.
I hope I can build up a solid enough ranking so I can participate in suspect voting. We shall see...

 

[Lavos]

So far, I've had several battles decided by a crucial sand veil miss, whether on my side or that of my opponent. I think the opportunity to test this is very helpful, as it really brings to light how broken sand veil really is: badly, badly broken.

Exactly right. It's scenarios like the ones you describe that make Sand Veil so anti-competitive and really just a way for the losing battler to pull a victory out of his or her trousers. You should have won games that you lost to Sand Veil hax, and vice versa. The presence of that ability is just inviting the RNG to screw with you.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Bringing back broken Pokemon like Garchomp doesn't lessen the power creep at all - it just makes things worse.

We need to get our priorities in order - slow down the meta by banning broken things and THEN look at bringing back banned Pokes. The OU meta is in need of cleansing because it's almost unplayable now.

 

[Electrolyte]

I might have actually brought up Chomp-in-Sun :O

anyway, if Sand Veil was still allowed, then of course at least I would use it over Rough Skin, just like some people still use Kingdra to counter Rain. Except Garchomp is already hard enough to counter as it is.

You also bring up a good point, alk, about Sun. If Sand Veil+Sand complex ban was underwent, well Garchomp being so popular in Sun would support my idea. There you have it- the perfect counter to Sand, one that resists Rock types moves, uses enemy sand to transform itself into a Dancing monster, and punching massive holes in the opponent and then letting Chlorophyll sweepers do their thing. Another reason why even a complex ban wouldn't work. If Sun hates Sand, Garchomp loves Sun, and Sand hates Garchomp, wouldn't that make Sun all the more broken now that one of it's best counters is countered?

What I really meant by #2 was why I would consider taking the risk of Sand Veil even without my own Sand. Rough Skin is a great ability, but if it were allowed, the added evasion that comes with SV is just too good to pass up, even if 84% of the time (as you said) Sand isn't up. Having no Sand doesn't exacly cripple Chomp either, so naturally SV would be preferred over RS, if it were allowed. But hey, that's just my input.

EDIT:
@ Super Mario Bro:
sorry, but I fail to see how the OU metagame is 'almost unplayable now'. Sure, there's been a power creep, but it's not as if there are any particular pokemon that are so powerful that they just tear everything apart. There really isn't much that is broken right now, other than Sand Veil, which is being taken into consideration right now. Garchomp may seem powerful, but it's still walled by Skarmory and Gliscor, and very susceptible to multi-hit ice moves. It's also great set-up bait for (yes) Cloyster, whose massive Defense will allow it to take an EQ and OHKO back with Icicle Spear. Garchomp is also a great 'cleansing' for the OU meta- it's a great answer to Tornadus, Terrakion, and the multitude of therians because it has just enough power and speed, and bulk to do work against them. The scarf set is an excellent answer to Terrakion and all therians because it outspeeds Thundurus-T by 1BP. That's real speed creeping.

 

[SaberSeven]

I might have actually brought up Chomp-in-Sun :O

anyway, if Sand Veil was still allowed, then of course at least I would use it over Rough Skin, just like some people still use Kingdra to counter Rain. Except Garchomp is already hard enough to counter as it is.

You also bring up a good point, alk, about Sun. If Sand Veil+Sand complex ban was underwent, well Garchomp being so popular in Sun would support my idea. There you have it- the perfect counter to Sand, one that resists Rock types moves, uses enemy sand to transform itself into a Dancing monster, and punching massive holes in the opponent and then letting Chlorophyll sweepers do their thing. Another reason why even a complex ban wouldn't work. If Sun hates Sand, Garchomp loves Sun, and Sand hates Garchomp, wouldn't that make Sun all the more broken now that one of it's best counters is countered?

What I really meant by #2 was why I would consider taking the risk of Sand Veil even without my own Sand. Rough Skin is a great ability, but if it were allowed, the added evasion that comes with SV is just too good to pass up, even if 84% of the time (as you said) Sand isn't up. Having no Sand doesn't exacly cripple Chomp either, so naturally SV would be preferred over RS, if it were allowed. But hey, that's just my input.

EDIT:
@ Super Mario Bro:
sorry, but I fail to see how the OU metagame is 'almost unplayable now'. Sure, there's been a power creep, but it's not as if there are any particular pokemon that are so powerful that they just tear everything apart. There really isn't much that is broken right now, other than Sand Veil, which is being taken into consideration right now. Garchomp may seem powerful, but it's still walled by Skarmory and Gliscor, and very susceptible to multi-hit ice moves. It's also great set-up bait for (yes) Cloyster, whose massive Defense will allow it to take an EQ and OHKO back with Icicle Spear. Garchomp is also a great 'cleansing' for the OU meta- it's a great answer to Tornadus, Terrakion, and the multitude of therians because it has just enough power and speed, and bulk to do work against them. The scarf set is an excellent answer to Terrakion and all therians because it outspeeds Thundurus-T by 1BP. That's real speed creeping.

Landorus-T and Bronzong also make nice checks to Chomp. The former with Intimidate to weaken Chomp's attacks and the latter with resistances to both of its STABs and can also retaliate with HP Ice.

 

[Phozon]

I've been doing alot of calcs w/ Land-T and Brong on a Garchomp and the one problem to them is the idea of an SD chomp. Even after intimidate, a chomp at +1 even if its jolly can almost OHKO a *Land-T- 77.23%~91.9%. Meaning that it really can't switch in on an outrage. and Idk how many people are running fireblast/ fire fang on chomp but heres some more calcs:

Brongzong- Impish 252HP/ 252Def vs. Garchomp w/ Life Orb- Jolly 252Atk/ 252Speed:

Outrage ( at +1 )- 55.64%~ 64.45%
Outrage ( at +2 )- 74.55%~ 87.64%

Fire Fang (at +1)- 80.73%~ 95.27%
Fire Fang (at +2)- OHKO

Fire Blast- 54.55%~ 64%

Landerous-T- Impish 252HP/ 252Def vs Garchomp w/ Life Orb- Jolly 252Atk/ 252 Speed

Outrage (at +1) OHKO

Fire Fang (at +1)- 43.26%~ 50.78%
Fire Fang ( at +1 in the sun )- 64.26%~ 75.55%

Fire Blast- 31.66%~ 37.3%
Fire Blast ( in the sun )- 47.34%~ 55.8%

Idk what the most common OU set of Garchomp is right now, but I've been playing with a life orb set and these are just some of the numbers I've been running.

*Yache Berry Chomp- Jolly 252/252 after +1

 

[SaberSeven]

I've been doing alot of calcs w/ Land-T and Brong on a Garchomp and the one problem to them is the idea of an SD chomp. Even after intimidate, a chomp at +1 even if its jolly can almost OHKO a *Land-T- 77.23%~91.9%. Meaning that it really can't switch in on an outrage. and Idk how many people are running fireblast/ fire fang on chomp but heres some more calcs:

Brongzong- Impish 252HP/ 252Def vs. Garchomp w/ Life Orb- Jolly 252Atk/ 252Speed:

Outrage ( at +1 )- 55.64%~ 64.45%
Outrage ( at +2 )- 74.55%~ 87.64%

Fire Fang (at +1)- 80.73%~ 95.27%
Fire Fang (at +2)- OHKO

Fire Blast- 54.55%~ 64%

Landerous-T- Impish 252HP/ 252Def vs Garchomp w/ Life Orb- Jolly 252Atk/ 252 Speed

Outrage (at +1) OHKO

Fire Fang (at +1)- 43.26%~ 50.78%
Fire Fang ( at +1 in the sun )- 64.26%~ 75.55%

Fire Blast- 31.66%~ 37.3%
Fire Blast ( in the sun )- 47.34%~ 55.8%

Idk what the most common OU set of Garchomp is right now, but I've been playing with a life orb set and these are just some of the numbers I've been running.

*Yache Berry Chomp- Jolly 252/252 after +1

I was talking unboosted/Scarfed Garchomp, but yeah. You got a good point. Thanks for the info though. :]
FreeGarchomp2012

 

[Electrolyte]

what kind of Landorus-T is 252/252+? I haven't seen a single Landorus yet that had max HP or max Def. +1 Outrage does 130-153% to standard 0/4 Lando. +0 252 Outrage vs 4/0 Lando does 87-102%, which is a 94% OHKO with SR up. -1 252 Outrage vs 0/4 Lando does 58-69%, a 2HKO. Because Chomp outspeeds, Landorus is in no way a safe switch in to chomp, as it is 2HKO'ed even when Chomp is at -1. Even Dragon Claw has a chance of 2HKO'ing with SR up- so Landorus is not a good switch in. I usually use Forretress or Ferrothorn, whose Gyro Balls do a hefty chunk. Cloyster again is a decent revenger, as EQ fails to even 2HKO, and Icicle Spear is always an OHKO. Cloyster can even SS as Chomp SD's, and then kill it afterwards. Not that any logical player would stay in.

 

[Keikari]

You know, after thinking, I realized that why? Why is Smogon against complex bans? They're not even complex. If I were a newer player I'd find team and moveset building and predicting more complex than SV Garchomp is banned while RS Garchomp isn't. Someone explain what is wrong with complex bans? If in fact RS Garchomp does fit in and isn't broken, that's great. I won't mind trying it, but why not just ban SV Garchomp? What's wrong with that? Why not bring back Blaze Blaziken or allow Mold Breaker Excadrill when it comes or if it's available, let it in! If it isn't broken, let it in! Let Sand Veil which only worked for Garchomp stay legal and also let Pokemon who aren't broken with their other abilites become legal again!

Pocket EDIT: this is not a place for discussing Blaziken and Excadrill without their offending abilities

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

To be honest calcs do little to prove a pokemon's power or lack of it when it comes to banning, 2 years ago you could of made a similar post showing Kingdra vs Ferrothorn trying to show that drizzle + swift swim was fine. I don't disagree with you, but it is important to know for the future that just showing calculations is not an argument.

What convinced me that sand veil Garchomp is broken is Katari's post about his (or her sorry) situation of how Katari made a solid and creative team in the rough skin metagame, but now the team was much worse off simply by having sand veil. Even though as a staller, I don't have this issue, I sympathize with someone else's options being severely limited and being forced to play a certain way.

I kind of agree with some of the posts in this thread wanting it just banned, it seems like we are jumping through hoops just to allow this in OU. I think this is a bit of backwards thinking to be honest, just to try to get our favorite OU dragon back to beat out Genesect, and some other pokemon. I don't know that is what it seems like to me. I'm not going to press this further because I don't feel like debating that at all.

But if Garchomp must be OU, which the current opinion is, the total ban of sand veil is probably the best way to go about things. Sand veil + sand would just really devastate sand teams which don't need to go further down. Yes cacturn is hurt in lower tiers, but I would rather a single pokemon be crippled than an entire play style. There are significant differences between Kindgra vs rain and Garchomp vs sand, that should be apparent.

 

[Phozon]

what kind of Landorus-T is 252/252+? I haven't seen a single Landorus yet that had max HP or max Def. +1 Outrage does 130-153% to standard 0/4 Lando. +0 252 Outrage vs 4/0 Lando does 87-102%, which is a 94% OHKO with SR up. -1 252 Outrage vs 0/4 Lando does 58-69%, a 2HKO. Because Chomp outspeeds, Landorus is in no way a safe switch in to chomp, as it is 2HKO'ed even when Chomp is at -1. Even Dragon Claw has a chance of 2HKO'ing with SR up- so Landorus is not a good switch in. I usually use Forretress or Ferrothorn, whose Gyro Balls do a hefty chunk. Cloyster again is a decent revenger, as EQ fails to even 2HKO, and Icicle Spear is always an OHKO. Cloyster can even SS as Chomp SD's, and then kill it afterwards. Not that any logical player would stay in.

I'm not saying that anyone would stay in. But those are just some of the things I've been calcing. I personally am trying to find something that would want to take hits from chomp and besides:

Max HP/ Sp.Def Ferrothorn gets 2HKO-ed by a Fire Blast from Chomp and Fire Fang( +0 ) if chomp is +2 it will be over kill and a physically defencive one will be 2HKO by Fire Fang and theres a 6% chance Fire Blast could be a OHKO. Again, idk how many people are running some kind of fire move on chomp. Also, these cals are based off of a chomp w/o Life orb and the chomp is Jolly.

 

[ab15]

I agree

You know, after thinking, I realized that why? Why is Smogon against complex bans? They're not even complex. If I were a newer player I'd find team and moveset building and predicting more complex than SV Garchomp is banned while RS Garchomp isn't. Someone explain what is wrong with complex bans? If in fact RS Garchomp does fit in and isn't broken, that's great. I won't mind trying it, but why not just ban SV Garchomp? What's wrong with that? Why not bring back Blaze Blaziken or allow Mold Breaker Excadrill when it comes or if it's available, let it in! If it isn't broken, let it in! Let Sand Veil which only worked for Garchomp stay legal and also let Pokemon who aren't broken with their other abilites become legal again!

I agree, whats so bad about complex bans, trying to find out what move sets were legal through breeding was much more complicated.
But I have to disagree about garchomp with sand veil, the luck really does mess with the game.

 

[SJCrew]

How do you suggest we ban secondary effects within the confines of the game cartridge? All of those moves have an intended purpose outside of their extraneous luck factor. Sand Veil has no purpose other than to make all moves Stone Edge against Garchomp. You yourself said this. Do you want all of your moves to be Stone Edge against Garchomp? That sounds like an absolutely horrifying competitive game to me and I would not willingly subject myself to that kind of frustration.

The facets of luck we can reasonably regulate already have been or will be handled. Moody left us early, OHKO will never be unbanned and neither will DT/Minimize. Evasion is the last of the completely uncontrollable luck factors we'd have to deal with in this game and I support any motion to help remove it altogether.

 

[Pocket]

Just like in the previous Garchomp Suspect Discussion thread, do not derail this thread with topics about irrelevant bans. Main offenders including bringing back Excadrill and Blaziken without their offending abilities and banning Snow Cloak. I warned you in the previous thread, and I'm giving a warning now. Any posts on these subject would be deleted, and the poster will be infracted. gl hf

 

[PK Gaming]

I've tried giving Sand Veil a chance, but there's just no redeeming the ability. No, I haven't been salted out by Garchomp, nor have I haxed someone in return (my matches have been relatively hax free actually);

---

I am convinced that Sand Veil is an ability designed for low-skill players to counter good players that play at higher levels. In a way, Sand Veil is a lot like random crits, a mechanic designed to give players a chance against good players using a game mechanic that can seem totally unfair to everyone else. (I'm disregarding crits being used to break boosting Pokemon btw, so bear with me) However, you can't really "abuse" random crits, whereas Sand Veil is an ability you have complete control over at all times.

There's this misconception that Sand Veil isn't a big deal, but I think this is largely due to low level matches. We've all heard of the "I would have beaten Garchomp if Ice Beam hit" story, and to them it's a "a once in a while type thing". I've heard people say that Sand Veil is no different than random crits or status hax. Contrary to popular belief, it's actually very overpowered (especially at high levels of play) because competitive players don't just "rely" on Sand Veil hax. They do everything in their power to make sure that Sand Veil activates (which is done via Substitute) at no negative net cost to the player.

Just my 2 cents. Sand Veil isn't a "once in a while ability, deal with it" hax. It has a very serious effect on the metagame; Don't believe me? Some of the top PS ladderers are using Sand Veil teams.

PS: Skarmory's on every team. Bluh, bluh, stupid bird.

 

[IstheCakeReallyaLie]

Oh and Skarmory's on every team. Bluh, bluh, stupid bird.

Well, there really isn't anything else that checks 'Chomp, which is why it was banned in the first place.

Pocket EDIT: THere are handful of checks to Chomp...

 

[Pocket]

PKGaming, the entire purpose of the suspect ladder is to actually experience first hand the haxy nature of Sand Veil and to measure the extent of its malignancy to the metagame. The fact that you are "convinced" that Sand Veil should gtfo has less substance if your actual play experience show otherwise (aka "Sand Veil wasn't that bad"). J/S

 

[PK Gaming]

Well, there really isn't anything else that checks 'Chomp, which is why it was banned in the first place.

Well yeah that goes without saying. Garchomp without Sand Veil actually has a decent amount of checks. It's unfortunate that they can't be counted in this metagame due to Sand Veil.

PKGaming, the entire purpose of the suspect ladder is to actually experience first hand the haxy nature of Sand Veil and to measure the extent of its malignancy to the metagame. The fact that you are "convinced" that Sand Veil should gtfo has less substance if your actual play experience show otherwise (aka "Sand Veil wasn't that bad"). J/S

Pocket, I've been watching a lot of suspect matches, and the result of those matches basically confirmed my thoughts on Sand Veil. I don't think BW has changed significantly enough to 'balance' Sand Veil, and in fact, I don't think anything would balance Sand Veil because Sand Veil is inherently an overpowered ability. The metagame is eerily similar to the old chomp legal metagame, except more and more people are relying on Hippowdon since it performs double duty. JS, I only played like 8 matches, and I got really lucky in a few of them. If I were to play more matches, i'm guaranteed to get haxed by a person actively trying to abuse Sand Veil.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

They do everything in their power to make sure that Sand Veil activates (which is done via Substitute) at no negative net cost to the player.

Shelling out 25% of your HP every turn is a huge negative cost to the player. Sand Veil strategies also have huge downside potential, as if a player relies on Substitute to get Sand Veil hax, there's an 80% chance every turn that the only thing that happens that turn is the Sand Veil user losing 25% of its health.

The latter, on the other hand, takes absolutely no kind of skill to use (don't put Substitute in this topic, that is a form of abusing), it just rolls on luck, something we try to reduce as much as possible, like Sand Veil.

So abusing an ability takes no skill? Substitute+Sand Veil is a skillful tactic, albeit an obvious one. A Sand Veil abuser cannot just smash the Substitute button and automatically win the game, as if you know that the opponent is going to use Substitute, then you have a free turn to do whatever you please. Why not bring in your weather changer and laugh at Garchomp's Sand Veil? If you don't have a weather changer (Sand vs. Sand or Sand vs. nonweather), then why not attack Garchomp. 80% of the time using Substitute on a Sand Veil Pokemon works out in your favor anyway. Or switch in a Scarfer, a counter to Garchomp (there is more than Skarmory, people!), or just attack.

Also, we do not try to reduce luck as much as possible. Smogon has never attempted to legislate as much luck out of the game as they can. There are plenty of luck-based strategies that are allowed in OU, such as Scald spamming, Paraflinch, and Snow Cloak abusing. People claim that luck is "uncompetitive" when they realize that Smogon has never attempted to legislate luck out of Pokemon and that Smogon defines luck in moderation to be a positive aspect of Pokemon. Pokemon will always have luck in it. Sand Veil is not an inordinate amount of luck unless it's on a 600 BST pseudo-legendary dragon with great STABs, amazing bulk, and a troll 102 Speed tier.

Maybe it's just Garchomp that's making Sand Veil look bad. Instead of focusing on the Sand Veil miss, focus on the fact that it let Garchomp sweep you. Garchomp's the problem. If Garchomp's overpowered because Sand Veil lets it sweep too easily, why not just keep it in Ubers where it belongs?

 

[IstheCakeReallyaLie]

Well yeah that goes without saying. Garchomp without Sand Veil actually has a decent amount of checks. It's unfortunate that they can't be counted in this metagame due to Sand Veil.

Yeah, I probably should have made that more clear. Back in Gen IV, there were no real checks to Chomp that I know of besides Skarm, but now it's better. Apparently. I wasn't into the meta until a bit before BW2. I, personally, think Garchomp is OP no matter what. It's really the only thing that I think signifies a "Power Creep"; the average BST are staying about the same for all non-legend (I know there's a difference between legend and Uber, I'm just pointing it out) Pokemon, and the legends make sense (gods of time and space vs three sorta rare birds).