Theorymon Sessions

[ebeast]

What if Metang got Recover?

Metang has always been locked down upon because of its mediocre offensive presence and lack of recovery. However, if Metang got Recover its niche would be improved many timesfold. With a 16 PP 50% recovery move Metang is capable of abusing its great Steel/Psychic typing in many ways such as becoming a much more reliable check to a myriad of threats. Pokemon such as Zangoose, Glaceon, Vanilluxe, Rotom-F, Altaria, Cinccino, Absol, Skuntank, Gardevoir, Kadabra, and Musharna are all easily checked by Metang and worn down by a combination of Meteor Mash and Toxic. Something such as Stealth Rock / Recover / Meteor Mash / Toxic would cover a good amount of bases and gives Metang a lot of utility to work around with.

 

[C AllStar]

What if Floatzel gets Swords Dance?

Floatzel is often overlooked since it faces competition with fast cleaners like Tauros and Zangoose. It is still a great pokemon though. The main problem it faces is lack of power. Tauros gets Sheer Force, Zangoose gets Toxic Boost while Cincinno gets Skill Link to boost the power of its moves. Comparatively, Floatzel gets only Bulk Hp as set up move and has weak base power moves. While Swords Dance takes one turn to set up, which is quite an issue due to Floazel's frailty, it is usually possible due to its ability to force switches. It can even set up on defensive moms relying on Will-O-Wisp to stop physical sweepers thanks to Water Veil provided it forgoes Ice Punch. It's extremely high base 115 speed lets it speed ties with Cincinno, making it significantly harder to revenge kill. The main thing making it dangerous is its access to Aqua Jet, making it impossible to revenge by frail scarfers such as scarfed Zebstrika. Besides, Floatzel can even pass its boosts to dangerous sweepers such as Tauros and Swellow, threatening its checks such as Tangela. Swords Dance Floatzel will become one of the biggest offensive threats in NU and would probably be banned if it's too dominating.

 

[Black Osprey]

What if Swalot got Recover?

Swalot is an oft overlooked Pokemon with good mixed defenses, workable mixed offenses, great HP, and a great defensive typing. On paper, he seems like an ideal defensive with access to Yawn, Encore, and the ability to absorb toxic spikes, or could function as a boosting wall, with access to Stockpile and/or Curse, effectively keeping most attackers at bay. But, there is one, very big problem: Swalot's only recovery is in Pain Split, which does nearly nothing for Swalot unless he is at drastically low health (with max investment, his HP maxes out at 404. Most mons that threaten it won't give it much back.) I think Swalot's viability would increase if it had more reliable recovery. I would love it if he learned Recover, which could better increase his survivability and carve a nitch for himself as someone who could wall Gurdurr, put him to sleep after taking anything he can throw at it, and, and presenting it from setting up with Yawn. I don't think Swalot would become top in NU after the addition of Recover, but it would definitely increase its usability.

 

[Black Osprey]

What if Octillery got Shell Smash?

Octillery has been rotting in NU due to its abysmal speed, which is truly its only flaw, since its move pool is amazing, including the rare Water Spout. Other notable moves are Ice Beam, Energy Ball, Fire Blast, Scald, Rock Blast, Signal Beam, Sludge Wave, and Swagger; all fantastic moves that make him unpredictable and terrifying with its even offenses. Shell Smash suddenly makes this octopus viable, letting him outspeed a lot of the meta game, and deal huge damage, capable of destroying the majority of the tier with a Shell Smash set with Rock Blast, Ice Beam, and Scald. It would be amazing in him.

Sorry for the repost, but I just thought of this.

 

[Shuckleking87]

Too bad Octillery doesn't actually have a shell, though the move would make it extremely dangerous

 

[Black Osprey]

Too bad Octillery doesn't actually have a shell, though the move would make it extremely dangerous

Yeah, too bad for that. I guess any boosting move would be awesome forit, though the only one that would make sense is Swords Dance, since it's a predator.

 

[WhiteDMist]

Bumping this with Zeb's approval

So March is coming up fast and with it come new tier changes. The following Pokemon are very likely to drop down to NU barring some unforeseen RU spamming of them: Primeape, Klingklang, Mandibuzz, Rhydon, Scolipede, and Munchlax. Also notable is the fact that Alomomola, Walrein and Liepard are pretty close to the RU cutoff mark. Last time these questions were asked, they didn't happen; Cinccino, Emboar, and Amoonguss were also in the tier. So here are some questions to think about with the current metagame in mind:

1. What effect would Munchlax have? Would Munchlax completely replace Lickilicky as a Special Wall and Phazer? Or would it be pretty much ineffective like it is in RU?

2. What role would Primeape have in the NU metagame? Will it be able to knock Sawk of its pedestal? Is it more likely to fall into the same role it has in RU? Personally I think it'll become a very effective revenge killer with its amazing base 95 Speed.

3. What changes would Klingklang and Scolipede have on the metagame? Klingklang and Scolipede are possibly dropping to NU, and they have rather unique roles. Scolipede is a powerful and FAST Spiker, and it is also a mighty Bug sweeper with Swords Dance and Megahorn. Klingklang is an effective Steel-type sweeper, and it can take advantage of being one of the only fully evolved Steel-types in the tier with possible defensive sets (though probably not).

4. What role would Rhydon have? Eviolite Rhydon is the most physically bulky Pokemon in the game; how would that affect the way people use it? It can't quite use Custap Berry like Golem and Gigalith, but it has a great niche in Megahorn and its massive base 130 Atk stat.

5. Would Mandibuzz completely alter the metagame? It is a difficult Pokemon to take out in a single hit, and it provides us with a new Dark type that can pretty easily handle the popular Psychic and Ghost types of the tier.

6. If Alomomola goes up, what would happen to NU Stall and balanced teams? It has been with us for so long, it has become a bit of a crutch for stalling out whole teams on its own. Without it, what would we do?

7. Would the loss of Liepard and Walrein affect the NU metagame much? Walrein is pretty useless without permanent Hail. Liepard is a very annoying Pokemon, so perhaps it would be a good thing if it rises. Then again, it is a very reliable user of Encore and Thunder Wave, stopping many sweeps from happening immediately.

8. What Pokemon in the current metagame could possibly rise in usage with the addition of ALL these RU Pokemon? What Pokemon could possibly fall?


We have a little over 12 days (from this post) before the tier shifts happen. If anyone wants to theorymon Mesprit and Hariyama possibly dropping as well, I encourage it. Now these questions are pretty specific, but also take into consideration that at least half of them may drop together. Please explain your theories as well, or make comments on other people's theories. Theorymon to your hearts content!

 

[Punchshroom]

Prepare for rant:

1. What effect would Munchlax? Munchlax's inability to outpace literally everything and lack of Leftovers, Heal Bell, and reliable recovery means it would face stiff competition from the other bulky Normals in the tier, such as Lickilicky and Miltank. It takes special blows incredibly well though, sponging the likes of Regice and Ludicolo with great ease, while Whirlwind means it is not easy setup fodder, so it could still see some use on full stall.

2. What role would Primeape have in the NU metagame? Knock Sawk off its pedestal, no. Be Sawk's best partner in crime, definitely. Musharna is much less of a hard stop to Primepae due to U-Turn scoring good damage and keeping momentum, and Punishment to really lay the beatdown on unsuspecting CM Musharna to the point where the blob can be KOed by a teammate, something Sawk can't dream of doing. Sawk still has Mold Breaker and insane power going for it so it won't be outclassed, but these two would be the best of buds (Throh: ;.;)

3. What changes would Klingklang and Scolipede have on the metagame? Klingklang would be quite a threat, taking everything Klang has and amping it up to 11. Those sexy sweeper-like stats pair better on Klingklang than on Klang, and it still has that marvelous Steel typing. Being the fastest Normal-Flying resist in the tier is such a godsend for offensive teams, as they no longer have to worry about Swellow and Scarf Braviary for the most part without sacrificing precious offensive momentum. For my thoughts on Scolipede, check here to here.

4. What role would Rhydon have? Rhydon is the bulky pivot that balanced teams would really like. While it has slightly less utlity than Golem who has Sturdy and Sucker Punch, Rhydon has greater power, phenomenal physical bulk with Eviolite, and Megahorn to skewer the likes of Musharna and Torterra, pokemon Golem would have no hopes of beating. It would also be the go-to Stealth Rocker over Golem in many cases: while Golem is owned by Sawk's CB Close Combat, max HP Eviolite Rhydon only has a 12% chance of getting OHKOed, and that can be easily avoided with minimal defensive investment or a +Def nature. If that weren't enough, Rhydon can even pull off CB or Rock Polish sets, with greater coverage than Golem and arguably Golurk while being stronger than both of them (albeit slower).

5. Would Mandibuzz completely alter the metagame? Yes, I would very much welcome what is bar none the best Musharna counter RU has to offer. She doesn't trap like Skunk per say, instead she just sits her ass down and refuses to die. She is an excellent stallbreaker with Taunt and Roost alone, but has other moves such as U-Turn, Knock Off, Whirlwind, Punishment, Foul Play, Torment, Fake Tears and other various disruptive moves that fellow stallbreakers Misdreavus and Golbat can only dream of. Mandibuzz can reduce the influence of Psychics in the tier, notably Musharna and Swoobat, if not force Psychics to adapt with Thunderbolt, which may instead leave them vulnerable to Skuntank's trapping.

6. If Alomomola goes up, what would happen to NU Stall and balanced teams? Alomomola's surprising prowess in RU is just a demonstration of its incredible physical walling ability: no other pokemon in NU, much less other tiers, can take physical hits to such a degree, pass off huge Wishes, and remain healthy throughout the course of the match, offering tremendous support. While it is known as common setup fodder, physical attackers will really dominate the now heavily crippled stall/balaned teams once our big Luvdisc bids farewell.

7. Would the loss of Liepard and Walrein affect the NU metagame much? I couldn't care less about Walrein, it's better in RU where Snover is anyway. Liepard though...please don't leave. I don't give two shits about parafusion spammers, but Encore Liepard has saved me so much you wouldn't believe, it just grabs momentum so easily if the opponent isn't on high alert. Want to Shell Smash? Liepard jumps in and wastes your White Herb. You have a Signal Beam Gardevoir? What good is that if you can't use it right now? You managed to Sub before my Swagger or presumed Thunder Wave? Watch on helplessly as you get locked into Sub while Liepard does the same and start whittling away at you. Want to heal? Yeah, you get the picture. Foul Play is also such an amazing tool due to the amount of physical attackers in the tier. It can target Zangoose, Golurk, Braviary, Sawsbuck, physical Samurott, Pinsir, even CB Sawks are all fair game. No, I'm not sure if I even want to play much of NU if Liepard leaves, it's just that crucial a pokemon for me (maybe not so much for the rest of you who have to deal with parafusionners :( ).

8. What Pokemon in the current metagame could possibly rise in usage with the addition of ALL these RU Pokemon? What Pokemon could possibly fall? I'll just say this, if Scolipede sets foot in the tier, offensive teams would skyrocket faster than Air Balloon Rotom-S. Hariyama may also be joining us, and has an edge over Throh in terms of bulky-Fighting shuffler due to Thick Fat and will be the best Fighting-type Trick Room sweeper we'll have. The addition of Klingklang and Rhydon would make things painful for physical Flying-types everywhere: Swellow, AcroBlimp and SubBU Braviary would likely take a nosedive (get it, cos' Flying types???) in usage. Psychic-types may fall due to Mandibuzz along with Skuntank being too much for them to handle in one set, and Psychic spam can still be messed up by Primeape's U-Turning, weakening their effectiveness against Sawk when the time comes.

 

[TailsTheeFox]

Agreeing with Punch on everything in the last post, excluding Munchlax as I assume it might have a slightly bigger effect with that bulk-Best little mon to have Trick Room support... But what if DELIBIRD'S DM WORLD ABILITY WAS SWITCHED INTO MAGIC GUARD? His DM ability treats him like a metapod, he doesn't get a different ability that can be used, he gets Vital Spirit and Insomia. With his Ice/Flying typeing, he's literally the worst Rapid Spinner. Not in NU, but in the game. What if some christmas magic was sprinkled on him though? He'd instantly become one of the best spinners, being able just hop in and spin away everything! His stats are not pretty, but he can roll around with a 252 EV invested Speed stat, and with Magic Gaurd, could carry a life orb and just take the power with no recoil! Still, he has the problem of his awful typeing, a weird movepool that focusess on Attacking with lower than average accuracy moves phisically, but with a good ability he could actually be playable!

 

[psVoltage]

Oh yes i am exited for these changes :3 But heres what i think about the matter at hand.

1. What effect would Munchlax?
Well i think that it wont become the best, due to lack of reliable recovery mostly. There is alot of redeeming factors though like a phazing move that doesnt miss ( looking at you lickiliki ) But yeah i can see it being used on like full stall, but it will still have alot of competition.

2. What role would Primeape have in the NU metagame?
I doubt it will outclass sawk, as the banded/ E belt set is beastly in power. But i can really see it being an amazing scarfer, and also IT CAN FIGHT MUSHY! I was so exited to find out it had punishment and u turn lol. I will definetly be trying them out as sorta like a fighting duo like punch said.

3. What changes would Klingklang and Scolipede have on the metagame?
Klingklang is another miracle, an actually steel sweeper! I am also so so exited for this guy to show up and start wreaking havok lol. That brings me to wonder, will magnemite with eviolite be able to tank a few hits from it and kill with hp fire? Now about scolipede this thing is going to be insane lol. 112 base speed is no joke, and along with a slew of offensive and suportive options this thing is most likely an instant s rank pokemon. I mean seriously look at its crazy movepool.

4. What role would Rhydon have?
Oh finnaly this guy moves down :3, i never really liked golem or any of those guys. Now rhydon would be the go to stealth rocker no doubt, and it has alot of utility. Megahorn to kill psychics, one of the best walls like ever, balanced teams like mine are in for a treat :)

5. Would Mandibuzz completely alter the metagame?
OMG the teir needs this bird in my opinion, as punch said it is one of the best mushy counters you can get. And we need a couple more of those since atm its runing rampant in the teir D: Anyway it wont be traping anything due to lack of pursuit or any power, but it will just sit there absorbing psychics like a pro, and being an amazing stallbreaker. We welcome you Mandibuzz!

6. If Alomomola goes up, what would happen to NU Stall and balanced teams?
Can't say im not glad this thing is going away, it was just a pain to kill >_<. On the other hand it was a pain to kill for the other guy too... Mixed feelings but i think rhydon can sorta fill that role? Just no wish lol

7. Would the loss of Liepard and Walrein affect the NU metagame much?
Not really for walrein, its a peice of crap not under hail, so keep it in ru were it belongs lol. Liepard on the other hand is both good and bad. Annoying yes, but its one of the best support pokes out there, as punch explained in detail.

8. What Pokemon in the current metagame could possibly rise in usage with the addition of ALL these RU Pokemon? What Pokemon could possibly fall?
Definetly Musharna and Gardevoir the monsters that they are are stoped cold by mandibuzz/ skuntank which is a really really good thing for this meta if we ever want to balance it out. Gardevoir not so much since it can adapt and run t-bolt, but you get what i mean. Then the second would be flying types, i mean rhydon sorta counters them lol hes extrememly bulky and even more with resist. Klang in a way, most likely because he can set up in most of their faces. Those are the most likely ones at the moment.

 

[Gl4ss]

1. What effect would Munchlax? Would Munchlax completely replace Lickilicky as a Special Wall and Phazer? Or would it be pretty much ineffective like it is in RU?

Coincidentally, Munchlax has already dropped on PO NU. It is still largely ineffective due to the prevalence of hazard stacking and many many phazers as well as the fact that the tier is somewhat physically oriented as is. Lickilicky's superior mixed bulk and Wish support tend to win the day

2. What role would Primeape have in the NU metagame? Will it be able to knock Sawk of its pedestal? Is it more likely to fall into the same role it has in RU? Personally I think it'll become a very effective revenge killer with its amazing base 95 Speed.


Sawk's power and access to Mold Breaker I still find superior for cleaning purposes. Though Primeape would make a far better pivot with its much greater speed.

3. What changes would Klingklang and Scolipede have on the metagame? Klingklang and Scolipede are possibly dropping to NU, and they have rather unique roles. Scolipede is a powerful and FAST Spiker, and it is also a mighty Bug sweeper with Swords Dance and Megahorn. Klingklang is an effective Steel-type sweeper, and it can take advantage of being one of the only fully evolved Steel-types in the tier with possible defensive sets (though probably not).

As a large presence on PO's NU which has long featured Klinklang in a starring role, let me tell you that it devastates. The addition of Leftovers and much higher speed means that it only needs to run about 100 speed EVs to outpace just about every notable scarfer and can set up in Alomomola's face.

At +2 and behind a sub you can pretty much say good night, nothing is dealing with that Klinklang at that point bar Torkoal and a very defensive Metang, which is why defensive Torkoal is so common on PO. Poliwrath is also not available in Smogon's NU which is rather unfortunate.

While Steel STAB can be a bit subpar in many environments, it just happens to be awesome in NU. With very few viable bulky waters outside of setup bait Alomomola, Gear Grind crushes the common Rock type walls like Gigalith and Golem, as well as Piloswine. It also has the added benefit of breaking sturdy, meaning that after one Shift Gear Klinklang outspeeds and OHKOs Scarf Sawk without fail even if it has sturdy.

Klinklang behind screens comes with my highest recommendations, it's a nightmare

Scolipede I could see becoming easily the premier offensive spiker, blazing speed, excellent Bug STAB and fantastic coverage with a very decent attack stat and access to Swords Dance.

4. What role would Rhydon have? Eviolite Rhydon is the most physically bulky Pokemon in the game; how would that affect the way people use it? It can't quite use Custap Berry like Golem and Gigalith, but it has a great niche in Megahorn and its massive base 130 Atk stat.

The beauty of Rhydon (Another pokemon that has already been NU in PO NU for some time) is that it doesn't NEED to invest in its Def at all, hitting over 400/400 defenses with 252 hp. This allows it to invest heavily in Speed to nab the quick 2hko on standard Roselia and outpace common walls, Atk to become a hard hitting tank, easily 2hkoing Musharna with Megahorn and smashing things with its STAB attacks, or even SDef, becoming capable of taking on any special attacker that fails to carry a Grass or Water type move. It's also an excellent phazer with Roar and Dtail, with the massive bulk to take on boosting physical sweepers like Pinsir.

5. Would Mandibuzz completely alter the metagame? It is a difficult Pokemon to take out in a single hit, and it provides us with a new Dark type that can pretty easily handle the popular Psychic and Ghost types of the tier.

This is getting a bit repetitive, but Mandibuzz has been in NU on PO for some time. I find it highly underrated, as people shy away from the Stealth Rock weaknesses, but with ridiculous 110/105/95 defenses, 80 speed, a massive support movepool, instant recovery, phazing, good typing, and Foul Play/Brave Bird for offensive presence it can checkmate entire teams. Seriously

Sometimes I look at the opposing team and say to myself. "Alright, I just have to take out their Rhydon and Mandibuzz wins it"

6. If Alomomola goes up, what would happen to NU Stall and balanced teams? It has been with us for so long, it has become a bit of a crutch for stalling out whole teams on its own. Without it, what would we do?

While Alomomola's massive Wishes and incredibly versatile bulk have long made it a staple for Stall, I find that an over reliance on it can cripple a good stall team, as while it does have massive bulk, it is often the pokemon on a stall team that provides openings for opponents to tear wholes in your team. Simply put Alomomola, in addition to being setup bait for a lot of things, doesn't actually take hits as well as we like to believe, taking just a little bit too much damage from some things no matter how you EV it. That other pickings at bulky water are slim, but with the removal of Emboar from the tier I feel that Alomomola's role may not be as important on Stall teams as it was in the past.

7. Would the loss of Liepard and Walrein affect the NU metagame much? Walrein is pretty useless without permanent Hail. Liepard is a very annoying Pokemon, so perhaps it would be a good thing if it rises. Then again, it is a very reliable user of Encore and Thunder Wave, stopping many sweeps from happening immediately.

I loathe Liepard's Swagger/Play set, aside from that I feel like it could use more Nasty Plot. Walrein does suffer from that horrible rock weakness for a wall as well as no recovery, I wouldn't miss it.

8. What Pokemon in the current metagame could possibly rise in usage with the addition of ALL these RU Pokemon? What Pokemon could possibly fall?

The drops include a huge number of pokemon that benefit from screens, so I could see common Dual Screeners like Serperior and Meganium and Gardevoir seeing more use. Klinklang in conjunction with hazards can drastically reduce the viability of Hyper Offense, a single boost which is not that hard to obtain with Klinklangs decent bulk can sweep teams with ease. Rhydon's bulk and power are a rare combination for a defensive pokemon, extremely hard to switch into, and nearly impossible to OHKO on the physical side, also a nightmare for hyper offense. Even Band Sawk fails to OHKO a defensive Rhydon, Klinklang at +1 has no chance, Zangoose's boosted Close Combat obviously falls short, and Rhydon can easily tank an Earthquake from Golurk while hitting back for a KO if Golurk has been weakened. Specially Defensive Rhydon also has a niche as a secondary counter for Musharna, 2hkoing with Megahorn even without atk investment while taking relatively little from even +1 Psychic. I would expect more balance and semistall in the tier with the drops, who suit slower paced teams a little better.

 

[watashi]

i recently peaked on the po ladder with a team based on klinklang and i can definitely attest to gl4ss's statements. although it has pretty poor coverage, once its counters are removed, klinklang can sweep extremely easily due to its great typing that allows it to set up on so many pokemon and shift gear, which basically removes any chances of one using a choice scarf pokemon to revenge kill. many checks to klinklang can be worn down easily; things like rotom-s, gurdurr, and golurk can beat klinklang one on one, but will fall to a boosted attack if they have previously switched into wild charge or gear grind. all klinklang has to do is come in on something it beats and fire off a few shots to ensure that it can sweep late game. very few physical walls in the tier can actually beat klinklang, so there will definitely be some changes to the movepools of certain pokemon, such as increased usage of hidden power ground musharna, hidden power fighting misdreavus, or hidden power fire tangela.

as for scolipede, it can also plow through many physical walls in the tier, including the big bad musharna. however, it has a few hard counters such as weezing, misdreavus, and either golurk or drifblim depending on the coverage move you use. scolipede can also be killed by scarf users rather easily because of its lack of ability to boost its speed (unless you use cbb's famed sd subsalac set). however, it is much more powerful than klinklang since the swords dance set is most likely holding a life orb and megahorn will hit like a truck, especially with a swarm boost. it should be noted that flamethrower weezing can counter both klinklang and scolipede, so expect to see more of that. this will probably also make gothorita a popular choice to use alongside these two sweepers since it can remove the fart cloud without trouble.

 

[Punchshroom]

I dunno, I always thought that the real danger about Scolipede is that it provides support for its teammates in Spikes (or Baton Pass) while remaining a powerful offensive presence (can't say the same for Rosy and Garbo) with great speed and wondrous coverage (Cacturne needs Sucker Punch, which can be exploited), with its offensive sets being potent lures (for spinners) or make good wallbreakers/sweepers in their own right. The same pokemon that hardwall offensive Scolipede can't stop 2-3 layers going up most of the time should the Pede be a supportive set.

Weezing will likely rise, though Mold Breaker Sawk would still limit its usefulness, so there's that.

 

[NfskMjmMal]

1. What effect would Munchlax? Would Munchlax completely replace Lickilicky as a Special Wall and Phazer? Or would it be pretty much ineffective like it is in RU?

Munchlax and LickiLicky aren't really in the same boat. Lickilicky has Wish and Heal Bell, while Munchlax's pure Special Bulk really outclasses Lickilicky. It sounds really obvious to say this, but Munchlax is more effective in NU. One of the things Munchlax relies on is hazards because its niche is walling and phasing due to not that much offensive presence. NU has worse spinners than RU. Armaldo and Torkoal don't really threaten the opponent like Kabutops and Cryogonal do. So, it's easier for Munchlax to do its job better because hazards are more likely to stay.

Munchlax, compared to Lickilicky, counters things better but also gets beaten more easily. I'm having a hard time thinking of a Poke that gets more crippled than Munchlax would if it's Tricked a Scarf. Munchlax walls some of NU's biggest special threats very well though.

252SpAtk Choice Specs Exeggutor (+SAtk) Leaf Storm vs 252HP/252SpDef Eviolite Thick Fat Munchlax (+SpDef): 41% - 48% (195 - 231 HP). Wowwwww plus RestTalk Munchlax really doesn't care about Sleep Powder

252SpAtk Solar Power Charizard (Neutral) Fire Blast in Sun vs 252HP/252SpDef Eviolite Thick Fat Munchlax (+SpDef): 21% - 25% (104 - 123 HP). Guaranteed 5HKO. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO-

0SpAtk +2 Musharna (Neutral) Stored Power vs 252HP/252SpDef Eviolite Thick Fat Munchlax (+SpDef): 25% - 30% (123 - 145 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO. This is after 2 Calm Minds.

But the problem is, although Munchlax walls some things so well, it just kinda takes hits and doesn't do a whole lot of damage unless you have like all four layers up. Plus, pretty much all teams carry at least one thing that takes care of Munchlax with no issues. Overall, Munchlax and Lickilicky aren't in the same boat. Muchlax is more extreme on all ends.

2. What role would Primeape have in the NU metagame? Will it be able to knock Sawk of its pedestal? Is it more likely to fall into the same role it has in RU? Personally I think it'll become a very effective revenge killer with its amazing base 95 Speed.

Primeape and Sawk function differently as well. Choice Band Sawk breaks walls like Primeape cannot, while Scarf Primeape can revenge kill and steal back the momentum with U-turn like Sawk cannot. It'll have the same role as in RU, just a little better. I think the closest thing to NU that could truly make Sawk almost unviable due to pure outclassing is Heracross, which is almost going up to OU if anything.

Primeape's Attack isn't too much lower than Sawk's, while Sawk isn't that much slower than Primape, but the differences are enough to facilitate different functions that the player will choose based on which their team needs more. However, with U-turn and Punishment, Primeape can deal with Musharna way better than Sawk can.


Might comment on the others later, need sleep zzzzzzzzzzz

 

[skylight]

I'm more interested in the fact that CB Adamant with SR (Scolipede, that is) can OHKO Mushy, and that it can outspeed and OHKO Ludi with Timid Scarf Megahorn - two of which are big players in NU. It can also 2HKO and set up on Tangela and Vileplume, 2HKO Golurk if carrying Aqua Tail, 2HKO Samurott, has a chance of 2HKOing Sawk, can destroy Gardevoir and so on makes it seem like it'd be a really dominant force, given that some of the most used Pokemon (besides Alomomola but if no Scald burn it can set up on it I guess) can't safely switch in, and are out-sped by it. The fact that it can do all that and is a fast Spiker makes it really good. I think it'll change up NU a lot and make people reconsider whether they want to carry Weezing etc as mentioned, because it can certainly be dangerous.

 

[chitinase]

1. What effect would Munchlax? Would Munchlax completely replace Lickilicky as a Special Wall and Phazer? Or would it be pretty much ineffective like it is in RU?
I've always been pretty partial to Munchlax. However Ghost types still wall it completely so it'd probably do better working hand-in-hand with Lickilicky for a double wall, because that would possibly be the most annoying stall team ever. Sawk however would massacre this.

2. What role would Primeape have in the NU metagame? Will it be able to knock Sawk of its pedestal? Is it more likely to fall into the same role it has in RU?
Primeape makes a great revenge killer, and the fact that its movepool is much more viable in this metagame than Sawk's is also very nice (the wonderful U-turn). However when it comes to pure power Sawk is still much more effective, but Primeape would be nice to pick off weakened opponents. Also Featherdance Murkrow is a hard stop to Sawk but can't affect Primeape much due to Defiant. I think it'll just end up as a partner to Sawk - double Fighting core?

3. What changes would Klingklang and Scolipede have on the metagame?
Klingklang has amazing offensive pressure and with the lack of good special attackers in the tier (and with super-effective attacks) it'd be difficult to stop after it's set up. Also another good Steel-type in the tier is always appreciated. It'd be a hard stop to Braviary due to resistance to its STABs and Gear Grind. We'd probably see more special attackers around.
Scolipede, I don't really have opinions on. I foresee more hyper-offense and definitely more spinners.

4. What role would Rhydon have? Eviolite Rhydon is the most physically bulky Pokemon in the game; how would that affect the way people use it?
Rhydon would make a perfect partner to specially defensive Vileplume since it's pretty much physically bulky and stops everything that might even have a chance of taking Vileplume down. It's bulky enough to take just about any physical hit, and has enough offensive presence to stop things from setting up on it. The only reason why I'm not sure if it'd be used is because of things like mixed Samurott or Eelektross.

5. Would Mandibuzz completely alter the metagame?
I am completely for Mandibuzz moving down because we need more Dark-types in the tier, and Psychic spam has become a lot more common since Absol left. Mandibuzz would probably up the level of full-on stall teams to be more viable. Either that, or I'd see more Taunters running around. Mandibuzz just refuses to die.

6. If Alomomola goes up, what would happen to NU Stall and balanced teams? It has been with us for so long, it has become a bit of a crutch for stalling out whole teams on its own. Without it, what would we do?
YES. I'm sorry, I really don't like Alomomola. It's become quite annoying to see it on every other team and with Alomomola leaving I think more teams would switch from stall to perhaps either balanced or part-stall, which is not as incredibly annoying. And it would be a refreshing change.

7. Would the loss of Liepard and Walrein affect the NU metagame much?
I'd mourn the loss of Liepard, but Walrein should really just move up to join Snover and Glaceon, since it's not very useful out of hail. Liepard does have the spot of the fastest Prankster user in NU (also meaning the fastest Encore and T-Wave in the metagame) and with Jolly and max speed investment outspeeds Scarf Gardevoir by two points, which means it can revenge a (severely?) weakened Gardevoir. I've always seen Liepard as a surprisingly solid way to deal with set-up sweepers - you're trying to set up? Liepard laughs at you with Encore. On the off chance that you sub to stop T-Wave? Encore keeps you using sub until you switch out. The loss of Liepard might see more set-up sweepers.

8. What Pokemon in the current metagame could possibly rise in usage with the addition of ALL these RU Pokemon? What Pokemon could possibly fall?
I really don't know, but I'd expect (well, actually I'd hope to see) a decrease in Psychic spam.

 

[tennisace]

This thread is pretty dead, but I'd like to pose an interesting question and maybe get it started back up again.

What if Slaking got U-turn? Would it be NU, PU, or even out of NU completely?

I'll post my thing once a couple people respond.

 

[WhiteDMist]

What if Slaking got U-turn? Would it be NU, PU, or even out of NU completely?
I think that U-turn would be pretty revolutionary on Slaking. It already has great power and Speed, meaning either Choice Band or Choice Scarf are very viable for it. With U-turn, you gain a spammable attack that gets around the only drawback it has in Traunt. Sure, once you wear down your counters, you would prefer to use your STAB and it'll be back to the same old Traunt problem. But by that time, you really shouldn't be in a position to have to worry about that, since U-turn is still a great option for overall utility. Hazards will be a problem like they are for every other U-turn and Volt Switch user of course, but that is nothing a good spinner or anti-lead won't solve. I think it would probably rise out of NU.

 

[Leafshield]

I think if Slaking got access to U-Turn, it would rise to at least RU. Slaking's already amazing Speed and Attack would make it a fantastic scout, especially since it completely avoids his Truant problem. Of course, you're gonna want to hit stuff harder later with a STAB Return or Double-Edge, so that brings his terrible ability back to light, but I think that can be played around easily with proper team support. All around, Slaking getting U-Turn would be a blessing, carving him a niche with his amazing power and deceiving speed.

I have another topic of discussion:

What if Pinsir got Megahorn? How would it effect it's role in the tier? Do you think Pinsir would rise above the NU tier?

I think Pinsir getting the notable extra power in Megahorn would make it a much larger threat, shutting down the Psychic- Types is already threatens and scaring them out of the metagame effectively. What do you guys think? I feel Pinsir would become much more common in the tier, as its surprising Defense stats let it survive even SE hits from many threats in the meta. I think it would become a dominating force in the tier, and move up to RU, but not UU, due to the presence of the superior Heracross.

 

[skylight]

I agree it'd probably leave NU. I mean it has both Moxie and Mold Breaker (with the former more notably making it a bigger threat) which already makes it great (but Megahorn would be the icing on the cake!)

However just in general I do think that Megahorn would be extremely useful on it, especially with Moxie and Scarf. I think it would probably reduce Scolipede usage - because it's effectively reducing the usefulness of Scolipede other than being a Spiker (which is the role I'd see Scolipede mostly having) while Pinsir on the other hand would be the offensive revenge killer that it already is, but to a greater extent.

 

[Shuckleking87]

I would think Slaking would get more usage, but would not rise out of NU. U-turn would become a very predictable move to play around, as it uses a move that isn't u-turn, a free turn to set up wouldn't be that difficult, though it has very god speed with a choice scarf. NU has a couple fighting pokes, but RU has so many fighting pokes that slaking would not last. It would be a beast in NU, but could not handle the RU metagame.

Pinsir with megahorn would be a huge upgrade. It is obviously very similar to Heracross of UU, except it has a stealth rock weakness, lack of second SATB move and a weak bug move. Pinsir could OHKO musharna after leftovers with a choice scarf set with megahorn, which is pretty impressive, and could run a choice scarf set better, as locking yourself into x-scissor just isn't that strong. Scolipede would have a sub salac berry and spike set as its only advantage over pinsir.

 

[skylight]

Since we can bring up discussion and the other one seemed to have died out...

What if Swellow got access to Close Combat?

Swellow is a relevant Pokemon right now especially in the faster metagame. However, it's flawed in that it can't get Close Combat to take on the rock/steels, while the slower Braviary has access to Superpower. With Close Combat Swellow would no doubt be more useful, but would also be easily revenge killed to priority if it lacks Quick Attack, and opts for CC over that. On the other hand, if it replaces U-turn then it loses an extremely valuable move, which can make it a tough decision as to what would be removed.

Would this change how well Swellow does in the metagame right now? Would Close Combat make it too broken? Or is there enough priority and faster threats to take it out? What specific Pokemon would this affect, and in a butterfly effect, would it have any impact on anything else said Pokemon might support? And if you used CC, what move would you replace? Why?

Sorry it's long-ish, I just thought it was an interesting thought the other day!

 

[Leafshield]

Swellow getting CC is actually a pretty awkward buff. For one, it gives it the ability to beat the Rock- and Steel- Types that usually force it out. But on the other hand, it means that Swellow has to give up one of its all important options in U-Turn and Quick Attack. If it relplaces U-Turn, Swellow is susceptible to being revenge killed, and if it replaces Quick Attack, it's gonna lose the ability to pick off weakened Scarfers or faster threats.

Of course, giving it Close Combat could give it a way to beat its counters, and maybe not require U-Turn so much, letting it stay in longer (though Toxic Orb racks up fast). I say it's a cool change, and I would definitely want to test it.

 

[Celever]

Swellow getting CC would really make Swellow counter-less besides getting toxic stalled! The only draws it has right now is it needs a status to have enough power, and it is hard-walled by rock and steel types. It would mean that physical walls would rise in usage just to counter the thing.
Also S rank on viability ranking.

Let's think of another topic though:
What if sky attack no longer needed to charge?

Because most of you probably have never heard of the move before, let me elaborate.
Sky attack is a base 140 move with 90 accuracy. It is physical, it has a 30% chance to flinch and a high crit rate. Also is physical.

Broken right? Well, not that many pokemon can learn it. Only flying types can, for one thing (base 210 wooh) and not even all of those can.
The two main birds of NU, swellow and braviary, can both learn sky attack. Would they leave the tier if it lots it's charge?
The bulky bird, however, tropius, cannot learn sky attack, whereas it's (kinda part) rival noctowl can. Would noctowl kick Tropius off of it's not that much noticed pedestal?

Discuss. :D

 

[Aasgier]

What if Swellow had access to Close Combat?

Close Combat on Swellow would make it very hard to counter, even moreso since Swellow also has Pursuit as well as Quick Attack, and that huge base speed, making checks and counters rare.
However, Scarfers can still revenge it with Swellow being SR-weak, and this can cause numerous problems at times as Swellow does not like being scared out.
Also, lower defence when the opponent survives your CC will mean you ARE dead with those defences.

It would certainly be better, but it would be nowhere near as broken as the next suggestion.

What if Sky Attack no longer needed to charge?

Braviary with no-recharge Sky Attack might go RU. Sky Attack is incredibly powerful especially on Braviary and could easily deal with an opponent or two.
Especially since it is no longer possible to wear it down through Brave Bird recoil which is a somewhat common way to deal with Braviary.

Swellow is in the same boat, though Toxic will still wear it down. Dunno if it would go RU, but it would certainly stay in the top of NU.

OP? Yes. Even moreso if we take the non-NU birds into account, and especially Staraptor.

Noctowl, however, would not be broken with these Sky Attack mechanics, neither knock Tropius of its pedestal. Noctowl has 50 Base Atk, which even with a drawback-free Sky Attack is not too threatening.
Noctowl is a decent special wall, it rather had a move to reinforce that instead, and preferably one that can't be Taunted.




Talking about Noctowl, what if Noctowl got access to a special Flying-type move with 90 BP that boosts SpDef one stage each time it is used?

Would Noctowl become viable in NU with such a move?

Noctowl is a special wall, but with a rather unfavourable typing. It has currently no niche, since Amoongus is out of the tier and Contrary Serperior has yet to be released.

But with such a move, it would become very hard to break after a few boosts, and against weaker special attackers, or those without Super Effective moves, it has no problem setting up.

On the other hand, on the physical side, it would still be as frail as ever. Any thoughts?