Just a question but could someone explain why Alakazam is A rank? Doesn't seem that good. I never see it and when I do see it, it always dies easily. I really see it as more of a C poke. I don't use it often which is why I'm asking as opposed to suggesting the change. So why is Zam A?
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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread
- Thread starter PK Gaming
- Start date
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Alakazam has a great ability in Magic Guard to make up for it's poor defenses, allowing it to come in on hazards and get a free turn with it's sash intact and since it out speeds a majority of the meta it can run through teams if priority users are gone allowing to abuse Life Orb due to Magic Guard, it brings a lot of offensive pressure with it's coverage. The CM set is also a huge pain to stall teams.
update
-Kyurem down from A rank ==> B+ rank
-Zapdos up from C rank ==> B rank
-Blissey down from B rank ==> B- rank
-Chansey down from B rank ==> B- rank
-A-rank now has subdivisions (they're totally preliminary and i'd be willing to explain why I placed each pokemon in w/e tier)
@Kyurem: I got too caught up in Pressure / Sub hype. Kyurem's a pretty good in OU Kyurem-B be damned, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to call it A-rank good. A much needed change imo.
@Zapdos: Amazing on sand stall, and just a massive dick to deal with in general. Bottom line, good players use it so up it goes.
@Blissey & Chansey: Mainstay on stall teams (though i've seen many good stall teams without them) but they're super flawed. They're barely hanging on to B- imo.
@Steelix: it blows.
-Kyurem down from A rank ==> B+ rank
-Zapdos up from C rank ==> B rank
-Blissey down from B rank ==> B- rank
-Chansey down from B rank ==> B- rank
-A-rank now has subdivisions (they're totally preliminary and i'd be willing to explain why I placed each pokemon in w/e tier)
@Kyurem: I got too caught up in Pressure / Sub hype. Kyurem's a pretty good in OU Kyurem-B be damned, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to call it A-rank good. A much needed change imo.
@Zapdos: Amazing on sand stall, and just a massive dick to deal with in general. Bottom line, good players use it so up it goes.
@Blissey & Chansey: Mainstay on stall teams (though i've seen many good stall teams without them) but they're super flawed. They're barely hanging on to B- imo.
@Steelix: it blows.
Ninetales shouldn't be Top A-Rank. I'm going to be honest: It sucks outside of providing weather. More often then not, ninetales is going to lose every weather war due to its poor typing, subpar offenses and SR weakness. To win weather wars, ninetales must rely on its teammates to beat tyranitar, hippowdon and politoed. Because of its garbage typing, it will have to switch out quite often, which is compounded by its SR weakness. I feel that its more fit for Mid/low A-Rank.
Heatran deserves Top A-rank. While its typing gives it some unfortunate weaknesses, it gives it some nice advantages. It resist Dragon, fire, ice, grass and many other important types. Furthermore, with the Air balloon and HP ice, it becomes the best check to ground types in the tier. It has an amazing base 130 special attack and great 91/106/106 defenses, allowing it to tank hits and dish back out powerful damage. Heatran has some flaws, but his pros easily make him Top A-Rank.
Heatran deserves Top A-rank. While its typing gives it some unfortunate weaknesses, it gives it some nice advantages. It resist Dragon, fire, ice, grass and many other important types. Furthermore, with the Air balloon and HP ice, it becomes the best check to ground types in the tier. It has an amazing base 130 special attack and great 91/106/106 defenses, allowing it to tank hits and dish back out powerful damage. Heatran has some flaws, but his pros easily make him Top A-Rank.
Such depth.
If only Steelix got an evo it would be a decent wall with eviolite...
Speaking of which, Ninetales A+? While Salamence is A-, how is Ninetales A+? Any team would be much more scared of Salamence than Ninetales(except a hail team) especially with Moxie. After a Moxie boost, Salamence is nigh unstoppable and can keep gathering the Moxie Boosts until even Steel types are goners.
I'd like to motion Kingdra be moved to A-.
Kingdra has always been underrated but in reality it is a really good mon.
Firstly, considering the swath of weather teams, Kingdra is a fantastic check to a lot of them.
Rain teams hate Kingdra the most because:
a) It abuses Swift Swim and has amazing STABs
b) It can set up with Dragon Dance and sweep
c) It 4x resists Water-type moves
Sun Teams hate Kingdra as well because of a 4x resist to Fire.
Sand teams hate it too because of Water STAB
Name one other mon that's got 4x resists to both Water and Fire. Palkia. And where is that? Ubers.
Kingdra is SERIOUSLY underrated and is the best Anti-meta mon(save Rayquaza who is Uber) in this BW2 Metagame.
For that, it deserves A-, if not A
It does fulfill the condition of walling a majority of the metagame(Rain and Sun)
Speaking of which, Ninetales A+? While Salamence is A-, how is Ninetales A+? Any team would be much more scared of Salamence than Ninetales(except a hail team) especially with Moxie. After a Moxie boost, Salamence is nigh unstoppable and can keep gathering the Moxie Boosts until even Steel types are goners.
I'd like to motion Kingdra be moved to A-.
Kingdra has always been underrated but in reality it is a really good mon.
Firstly, considering the swath of weather teams, Kingdra is a fantastic check to a lot of them.
Rain teams hate Kingdra the most because:
a) It abuses Swift Swim and has amazing STABs
b) It can set up with Dragon Dance and sweep
c) It 4x resists Water-type moves
Sun Teams hate Kingdra as well because of a 4x resist to Fire.
Sand teams hate it too because of Water STAB
Name one other mon that's got 4x resists to both Water and Fire. Palkia. And where is that? Ubers.
Kingdra is SERIOUSLY underrated and is the best Anti-meta mon(save Rayquaza who is Uber) in this BW2 Metagame.
For that, it deserves A-, if not A
It does fulfill the condition of walling a majority of the metagame(Rain and Sun)
TCTphantom
formerly MX42
Nominating Victini for B or B- tier.
Victini is one of the best pokemon in sun, right behind Venusaur. V-Create 2HKOs the entire game in sun, with very few not being OHKOed. Now, just being able to nuke everything is not too great. But being able to do so in many different ways is. The coverage Victini runs determines who can counter it. Its almost obvious Victini will run V-Create and Bolt Strike. Glaciate ruins Dragons besides KyuB, who loses to V Create.Brick Break ruins T Tar and Heatran somewhat, or U Turn to gain momentum or Trick to cripple a wall. It could also go special with 77% accurate Thunders and Focus Blasts. It could even go Trick Room in the sun, which I have to say is quite strong...
Victini is one of the best pokemon in sun, right behind Venusaur. V-Create 2HKOs the entire game in sun, with very few not being OHKOed. Now, just being able to nuke everything is not too great. But being able to do so in many different ways is. The coverage Victini runs determines who can counter it. Its almost obvious Victini will run V-Create and Bolt Strike. Glaciate ruins Dragons besides KyuB, who loses to V Create.Brick Break ruins T Tar and Heatran somewhat, or U Turn to gain momentum or Trick to cripple a wall. It could also go special with 77% accurate Thunders and Focus Blasts. It could even go Trick Room in the sun, which I have to say is quite strong...
Nintales is a rank because it sets up perms sun, perms weather is why politoad is s-rank. Also you cannot compare ninetales with mence
If you think kingdra should be s-rank because of enamy rain then your gonna have a hard time. First of all only about 15% of teams use rain, so it isn't that useful and kingdra is easily stoppable as most rain teams have ferrothorn who walls kingdra. Also the only set that does damage is the specs set, which can be easily scouted and then go into a counter. It is anti meta and useful but it has its flaws, so that is why it should be b-rank.
B- sounds good to me, because... V-Create + coverage options. The only thing I would say is not true about MX42's post are the comments on the special set. There is no reason to use it when Heatran, Volcarona, and, god forbid, Infernape exist, since all outclass it in some way. All Victini has going for it in that regard is surprise factor...
252 SpA Life Orb Victini Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 300-355 (71.42 - 84.52%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 259-306 (61.66 - 72.85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
... but even then, it doesn't seem like it's worth it. From a point of coverage, the only thing Victini gains is Grass Knot, seeing as everything else that Victini would use on a special set has a physical, variant that can be backed up by a fully invested V-Create.
But yeah, Victini has a good niche that could possibly fit B-, but no more.
Kingdra has actually improved since I first recommended it for C in this thread (though its initial placement was B).
The Good:
-Ferrothorn's popularity and universal presence on rain teams seems to have waned a bit
-Celebi has become more popular in its place, but Kingdra's Rain LO set can easily pack Signal Beam or Ice Beam and 2HKO it
-Blissey and Chansey have become almost non-existant (this is HUGE for Kingdra)
-Deoxys-D getting banned is not bad for Kingdra either
-Vaporeon has fallen off the map
-Kingdra's Rain Dance set has proven to be extremely lethal-- as effective or more effective than Specs
-Popularity of Scarf Keldeo and Terrakion and frequency of sun/rain teams make RD Kingdra even more lethal
The Bad:
-Tornadus-T getting banned meant fewer rain opponents, and a metagame less centralized around rain offense (which Kingdra is extremely useful against)
^This is part of the trend of Specs Kingdra => RD Kingdra
-Popularity of Rock Polish Landorus-I... ew....
The Good:
-Ferrothorn's popularity and universal presence on rain teams seems to have waned a bit
-Celebi has become more popular in its place, but Kingdra's Rain LO set can easily pack Signal Beam or Ice Beam and 2HKO it
-Blissey and Chansey have become almost non-existant (this is HUGE for Kingdra)
-Deoxys-D getting banned is not bad for Kingdra either
-Vaporeon has fallen off the map
-Kingdra's Rain Dance set has proven to be extremely lethal-- as effective or more effective than Specs
-Popularity of Scarf Keldeo and Terrakion and frequency of sun/rain teams make RD Kingdra even more lethal
The Bad:
-Tornadus-T getting banned meant fewer rain opponents, and a metagame less centralized around rain offense (which Kingdra is extremely useful against)
^This is part of the trend of Specs Kingdra => RD Kingdra
-Popularity of Rock Polish Landorus-I... ew....
TCTphantom
formerly MX42
The small advantage of a special set is 77% accurate Thunders and Focus Blasts.
Lucario should be A- already. It has amazing sweeping potential and is one o the best late game sweepers in OU at the moment. If you don't carry a pokemon that can beat it, you're in for a hard time. It's speed is somewhat of a letdown, but it mainly relies on strong priority to kill its opponents. Even Mixed Hippowdon is OHKO'd by a +2 Close Combat, and Gliscor and Lando-T are crushed on the switch in by Ice Punch. Unfortunately it can't get past Jellicent, but then neither can Keldeo, an S Rank poke. Overall, if you let it get a Swords Dance in, you're in for a world of hurt. It's no better or worse than Breloom, who sits in A. Sure, that has Spore, but its also much slower and doesn't have the ability to go mixed (although I wouldn't recommend mixed Lucario). Lucario in the right hands is immensely dangerous.
Lavos
Banned deucer.
as chou implied, kingdra needs to move up to b-rank at the very least. it's the single best offensive check against the most overpowered playstyle in the game right now, which is enough to justify its rank change alone. however, it has a lot else going for it too. with mediocre offensive stats, but a fantastic rain-based movepool, it can really hit hard using a choice specs set, or set up rain itself with rain dance and then go to town. even the largely forgotten sub + dd set is useful in this metagame, setting up all over common pokemon like politoed, tentacruel, starmie, and choice-locked keldeo. i've used kingdra on a lot of teams even after the torn-t ban and its effectiveness hasn't decreased one bit. if anyone would like to contend that it's not worthy of the rank i'm assigning it, i will be more than happy to argue with you. so, for now, i'll say put kingdra in b-rank.
I'd like to contend on one basis: Kindgra deserves better. Kingdra deserves A- in my opinion because it alone walls BOTH rain and sun teams as well as being capable of beating sand teams. Which other mon can claim that?
Look at the S-rank threats and see how Kingdra fares:
a) Keldeo: Thanks to a 4x resist to water, Kingdra can wall Keldeo all day long. This is the statistic for 252 SpA Rain boosted Choice Specs Hydro Pump: 35.87 - 42.37% to 252 HP Kingdra
So a locked Keldeo can't do much while Kingdra can set up with DD and rampage with Outrage.
b) Landorus: Can't take a boosted Outrage either
c) Politoed: similar to Keldeo
d) Terrakion: OHKOed by Waterfall, outspeed in rain
Look at the S-rank threats and see how Kingdra fares:
a) Keldeo: Thanks to a 4x resist to water, Kingdra can wall Keldeo all day long. This is the statistic for 252 SpA Rain boosted Choice Specs Hydro Pump: 35.87 - 42.37% to 252 HP Kingdra
So a locked Keldeo can't do much while Kingdra can set up with DD and rampage with Outrage.
b) Landorus: Can't take a boosted Outrage either
c) Politoed: similar to Keldeo
d) Terrakion: OHKOed by Waterfall, outspeed in rain
252 HP Kingdra, really? What are you going to outspeed/threaten with that? The issue is that Kingdra can't really find the time to boost in this metagame (the fact that the same Keldeo's attack can 2HKO standard Kingdras is proof). Dragonite at least has bulk, Volcarona boosts its Special Defense as well, while Landorus-I / Landorus-T can scare out shit with its good speed tier / Intimidate respectively along with crushing power right off the bat. Kingdra only boasts good speed and power under Rain, otherwise base 95 offenses with 75/95/95 bulk isn't really cutting it in terms of boosting sweeper material. It is probably better off attacking off the bat, but again base 95 offenses seem inefficient for that role. It should stay in B-Rank, probably not high B either.
I'm talking about under rain.
In rain, this is the damage by a 252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo without rain vs the Chesto Rest Kingdra set: Hydro Pump: 22.49 - 26.44%
So with that, Kingdra doesn't take much damage, can easily Dragon Dance twice, Rest if necessary or Dragon Dance again(risk of crit) and sweep.
KIngdra's role is anti-meta. Lando doesn't like a DD Water Fall. DD while any counter tries to switch in makes Kingdra really fast.
Sun teams can't do anything to Kingdra, neither can Rain or Sand.
Also, another + is that it is the ONLY dragon in OU with no weakness to Ice, meaning it can easily tank Ice shards from Mamoswine all day long.
In rain, this is the damage by a 252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo without rain vs the Chesto Rest Kingdra set: Hydro Pump: 22.49 - 26.44%
So with that, Kingdra doesn't take much damage, can easily Dragon Dance twice, Rest if necessary or Dragon Dance again(risk of crit) and sweep.
KIngdra's role is anti-meta. Lando doesn't like a DD Water Fall. DD while any counter tries to switch in makes Kingdra really fast.
Sun teams can't do anything to Kingdra, neither can Rain or Sand.
Also, another + is that it is the ONLY dragon in OU with no weakness to Ice, meaning it can easily tank Ice shards from Mamoswine all day long.
I have been using kingdra for some time and its truly amazing, but seriously its not A-Rank. It depends too much on rain (either rain dance or an opponent's politoed) to stand out from other dragons. Sun teams completely destroy kingdra by weakening its water stab and forcing it to rely on dragon attacks making it easily walled. Rain and sand commonly carry counters/checks such as ferrothorn (wall any set), skarmory (wall physical sets) and blissey/chansey (wall special sets). Also kingdra is not the only ou dragon with neutrality to ice. Kyurem-B is there too. For these reasons kingdra should just be B-Rank. Its anti-meta but mediocre stats, easily walled by one of the most common pokemon in the game and limited movepool make it easy to beat most of the time.
Just a nitpick: Kyurem-B is also neutral to Ice.
Anyway, I agree with Kingdra being B+. I think A- is a bit far for something that is so reliant on rain. Only Venusaur above it is that reliant on weather being in play, and Venusaur is arguably more dangerous than Kingdra. It is still a great pokemon and probably the best counter to rain, but otherwise its just horribly outclassed by just about every other Dragon.
EDIT: Ninja'd Godammit.
Anyway, I agree with Kingdra being B+. I think A- is a bit far for something that is so reliant on rain. Only Venusaur above it is that reliant on weather being in play, and Venusaur is arguably more dangerous than Kingdra. It is still a great pokemon and probably the best counter to rain, but otherwise its just horribly outclassed by just about every other Dragon.
EDIT: Ninja'd Godammit.
Scrafty for D Rank. I feel like he is outclassed completely as a DD user nowadays by Gyarados, Mence, Dragonite, Kingdra and even Haxorus because of their superior power, speed and even bulk with intimidate and/or multiscale (obv Haxorus has less bulk than Scrafty but hits like 3 Scraftys in exchange) For the little guy to have any power you need to use Hi Jump Kick which gets royally fucked by hax, ghosts and protect. If you run Drain Punch or a Jolly nature you're hitting like a wet paper bag, too. You need Moxie to make him threatening at all but then status and any Choice Scarf user will still almost always stop your sweep because Scrafty is so slow. The Bulk up Set would seem to be a better use of Scrafty's stat distribution but in the offensive, weather-boosted BW2 metagame there's just no way he's gonna get going and you still have to rely on Shed Skin to activate to beat status/ wake up from Rest which is your only "reliable" way to recover. When I see D rank I honestly almost instantly think of Scrafty in the BW2 metagame since I feel pokemon like Golurk and Kabutops who are placed in this ranking at least have some certain role in the meta that no other mon can perform (Swift Swim SR/ Spinner, SR Spinblocker who checks Terrak really well) whereas Scrafty really only has his 2 predictable, mediocre sets which are both only threatening after heavy turns of setup with little to no chance of surviving these setup turns/ ko-ing necessary threats due to lack of bulk, speed and noteworthy resistances. The line in the D rank description about "more trouble than their worth" seems to ring perfectly true for this guy if it does for any mon on the list.
I've used Kingdra a ton and honestly I felt like the physical variants are not so great. Sure, if your opponent has Rain and you're able to wear down Ferrothorn, Kingdra is pretty much guaranteed to sweep. However, it's pretty bad outside of Rain, so if your opponent brings Sand or Sun or something your sweeper is in a pretty lame situation, even more since Kingdra relies on a lot of team support to remove Ferrothorn etc.. However, I feel like the Rain Dance LO Special set is much superior. Basically, it allows a weatherless team to have some form of weather control. It's really good against Sun teams and it works ok against Sand teams, and it still wrecks offensive Rain teams if you're able to remove Ferrothorn. It still requires some team support for that which is why I think B+ is the most appropriate ranking for it. But yeah all in all stop using physical Kingdra and bring in the Rain Dance LO Special set, you won't regret it
Sylveon
Banned deucer.
I disagree with Hippowdon in A+ rank. Sure it may be bulky as hell with reliable recovery and brings sand storm by just switching in but outside of that it just sits there and phaze. A lot of physical attackers can still break trough it. Kyurem-B, Dragonite, Haxorus, Breloom, Feraligatr, Victini and even Tyranitar (2HKO's with Aqua Tail) not to mention it still has to worry about all the Special Attackers in the tier. There's just always something that will force it out. Sand isn't nearly as good as Sun or Rain now if Excadrill was OU...
+1 252 Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 193-228 (45.95 - 54.28%) -- 3.91% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 214-252 (50.95 - 60%) -- 85.94% chance to 2HKO
Not breaking it anytime soon. Kyurem-B is more of a mixed attacker and feraligatr is well, irrelevant. Even if some physical attackers are capable of 2hkoing it, hippowdon still has reliable recovery and whirlwind, allowing it to keep those threats in check. While sand does not have as much abusers as sun and rain, it has the best weather starters and the most powerful pokemon in the tier (landorus) at its disposal. Hippowdon deserves A-Rank.
Kingdra is by far a lot more of a threat than Venusaur. It hits harder, and has a more useful dual stab than Venusaur, seeing as how Venusaur can only use it's Grass stab efficiently, due to Poison being a pitiful type. Kingdra, makes great use of it's Dragon stab and it's Water stab, due to under Rain Hydro Pump 2 hitting many things, and it's Dragon stab hitting big threats like Kyurem-B, Salamence, Haxorus, and Dragonite.
The problem is
Kingdra can't utilize its appropriate weather due to the ban
So it is essentially a super niche pokemon with base 95 stats across the board (ie... not very good)
I'm also under the belief that the life orb rain dance set is the best one (though its still meh).There is absolutely zero reason to use dragon dance... 95 base attack and speed are awful. period. Its coverage is technically great, but it is hard walled by ferrothorn, a very common poke. (plus with 95 base attack, those resists aren't dying too easily)
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