np: NU Stage 9 - Locked Out of Heaven

[Punchshroom]

There's no denying that Rain is a very powerful playstyle and it is devastating if used well, however I still don't think Damp Rock warrants a ban.

* For one, it will heavily neuter Rain to the point where no one would give it a look. A fine example of this is Trick Room, where despite the presence of powerhouses like Marowak, Octillery and Rampardos, they just can't sweep opponents long enough to be considered a remote threat in most cases. Currently, Trick Room is best used if the Trick Room setter itself is going for the sweep, like Beheeyem or Duosion. Without Damp Rock, Rain would hardly see much success, limiting itself to the likes of Ludicolo or Swanna as Rain setters looking to support themselves instead of others as well.

* Secondly, you claim that it throws much of the opponent's strategies out the window, however this is merely an indication of how Rain takes advantage of today's metagame's more offensive and frailer playstyle, as most of them can't deal with the speed and power increase, much like the case of Sun. After all, there wasn't much talk about 8 turns of Rain swamping many teams during the era where the likes of Gardevoir, Braviary and Musharna were more popular than they are today. If anything, this could be the kind of push we need to bring defensive teams back into the spotlight (You mentioned that Alomomola, Mantine and Munchlax could be problems). Since the RU drops in Scolipede, Jynx and Primeape have shaken up the tier to adopt more offensive playstyles, if Rain (and by extension Sun, I can't stress this enough) can put these offensive teams in their place this could balance out NU by giving defensive teams their chance to shine once more.

Edit: You still haven't fixed that Toxic Spikes weakness I see. This is what I mean by Rain teams being devastatingly weak to them, since they have almost no room for a Poison-type on their team since Amoonguss's departure (:[) , so that's an easy strategy defensive teams (or lead Scolipede) can pull off on you.

 

[canno]

Speaking of Rain, how useful would Scolipede be on a rain team? It absorbs Toxic Spikes for rain teams, sets up Spikes to punish switches, looses it's Fire weakness in the rain, and has it's main coverage move boosted by the rain. If only it could also set-up Rain, otherwise, I think it would be a staple on most rain teams. As it stands though, Scoliepde might not be too bad on a Rain Team.

 

[ryan]

Although I don't have a rain team at the moment, I do use self-setting Ludicolo on one of my team right now alongside Scolipede. The rain boost for Aqua Tail is pretty cool, and I typically go to Scolipede if Ludicolo dies and the rain hasn't ceased.

Anyways, yeah, Scolipede would be pretty cool with rain in spite of not benefiting from it that much.

 

[mkizzy]

Scolipede would definitely be a good asset to a rain team, although hazards are always nice to have. It's the most viable Poison type I see to absorb TSpikes, and it also beats Jynx if you use Pursuit (which is a pretty handy move to carry.) It easily clears the path for other Rain mons such as Carracosta and Ludicolo to sweep.

 

[tennisace]

way ahead of you guys, sorry

Volbeat (M) @ Damp Rock
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Impish Nature
- Encore
- Thunder Wave
- U-turn
- Rain Dance

Seismitoad @ Life Orb
Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SAtk / 160 Spd / 96 HP
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock
- Rain Dance

Scolipede @ Black Sludge
Trait: Swarm
EVs: 252 Atk / 24 HP / 232 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Megahorn
- Aqua Tail
- Spikes
- Toxic

Charizard @ Flying Gem
Trait: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 SDef
Jolly Nature
- Acrobatics
- Flare Blitz
- Roost
- Substitute

Ludicolo @ Life Orb
Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Spd / 4 SDef / 252 SAtk
Modest Nature
IVs: 29 HP
- Giga Drain
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Leech Seed

Sawk (M) @ Choice Band
Trait: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Spd / 4 HP / 252 Atk
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Stone Edge

<tennisace> !ranking love reign, nu
<TIBot> lovereign: NU | 1620 ACRE | 71 GXE | 1733 ± 80 Glicko2 (provisional) | 16-9-0

4 of the losses came from the original version of the team, before I added Sawk > Ditto. I could ladder quite a bit higher with this team if I really wanted to, but tbh rain teams are really boring to play with in general for long periods of time. Unlike my usual offensive teams, I have 2 hard-set win conditions, and if I play stupidly and lose them early (or Hydro Pump misses), then I'm really behind the 8 ball.

You guys are right, Scolipede is really cool on a rain team, but not for the reasons you listed. I'm using it to both outspeed non-scarf Jynx (and by extension Sawsbuck and Primeape) and lure in Pokemon like Alomomola so I can cripple them. I've had quite a few matches where Toxic was the key to winning (especially since so many Alomomola are now running Magic Coat > Protect). With Toxic, Alomomola is now in serious danger of being 2hko'd by Sawk, and can't really stall out Scolipede for long either. I really REALLY wish Scolipede got Rain Dance instead of Sunny Day, though that's an idea for another day.

As expected, bulky mons are a serious problem to the team, though getting Stealth Rock up early is key, as it allows me to 2hko Regice in the rain with Hydro Pump most times. Sawk works quite nicely in that regard, allowing me to immediately threaten a ton of mons on defensive teams. So many people still switch Weezing into Sawk directly, only to find themselves 2hko'd by Earthquake...

I could make some changes to the team, like Rain Dance > Leech Seed on Ludicolo, but again I'm bored of the team. The largest problem by far is that I don't have very many Rock/Flying resists. Also, if you can outstall my rain the first time, it's a lot easier the second time (unless I ko at least 2 Pokemon in the meantime).

In conclusion: Rain is great vs teams that are unprepared, but it's really REALLY easy to be marginally prepared for them, since the Pokemon that check rain are great Pokemon in their own right. Damp Rock is really helpful, but it doesn't make or break rain teams.

edit: ps acro charizard gets a lot of fun kos like skuntank and uhhh other stuff i can't remember

 

[Gl4ss]

And again Liepard makes my day miserable. Some guy is just running around with Liepard, Murkrow, Ditto, and fillers and I of course smack myself to death because I smack myself in confusion the vast majority of the time (I counted). Must I seriously run Lickilicky and Bastiodon to deal with this -_-"

 

[Infernis]

You could run a Rapid Spinda with Own Tempo. You have to forgo Contrary, but then you can't use Superpower with Rapid Spin anyway. :naughty:

 

[Axa]

Purugly has Own Tempo, outspeeds Liepard and Fake Out + Return KOs it (U-Turn also leaves it near death). It can also more or less trade with Murkrow (beware of Thunder Wave though).

 

[Aasgier]

Be careful of Fake Out as Liepard has Prankster Encore access though...

 

[Punchshroom]

This is why I love Encore Liepard, numerous "safe" attacks such as Fake out, Substitute, Heal Bell, recovery moves or Protect just easily backfire in the face of the feline.

 

[skylight]

You could run a Rapid Spinda with Own Tempo. You have to forgo Contrary, but then you can't use Superpower with Rapid Spin anyway. :naughty:

Spinda has no real use now in most of the meta, though. Sure it can use Rapid Spin but it's still weak defensively (and without offensive investment it's still weak offensively too) and having it specifically for Liepard (which is common but not too common) just seems like you're wasting a spot. The other spinners all can offer something - Armaldo can make for a slower sweeper as well as a spinner, Torkoal can potentially burn what it's facing/what switches in, so can Wartortle, etc. Spinda can use Toxic but it can't actually do anything (except if they're attacking but Missy would prefer to burn) to ghosts that come in, while all the others can do at least something. With that in mind, even with the Liepard role, it has no secondary role (that others aren't more efficient at) and you're giving up a spot that could be dedicated to something that can help against Liepard if hax doesn't play too much into Liepard's hand.

 

[The Quasar]

[...]It'd also be cool if people I know use Rain extensively like The Quasar could post their opinions on this matter, as it would be good to get some feedback from veterans of the strategy.
[...]

You have to excuse me, but I haven't read that (about Damp Rock Suspect/Ban) before.

First of all I'm glad you have prompted me to respond because I'd like to play with rain team and you acknowledge me like not being totally unable to play enought good. :D

Well, there are two focal point to consider about:

1) I don't play long since (about six months).

2) When I approached pokemon battling, I approached what could make my learning easier. Furthemor somthing was not popular (look Usage Stats)

Then, rain offense team. ;)
It's not so difficult for a "rookie" building around rain. Ludicolo, Shell Smash Gorebyss (with White Herb), SR Seismitoad, a speed spinner like Armaldo, Swanna/Mantine for a speed Hurricane/Arial Ace and so on. That's no problem to find Swift Swimmers. I used always a leader like Rotom-S (with Damp Rock for a rapid Volt-Switch) but a Prankster leader perhaps is quite better. I think the strength of rain teams has certainly increased with the Amoonguss and Cinccino ban, while I have not tested a team vs Jynx and Scopelide; also IMHO these pokemon can interact well like rain teammates, above all the first but also the second, as The Reptile and Tennisace say.
Clearly the speed gives great advantages but generally, I found insuperable difficult vs Trick Team and quite problems with stall team, as well as against an opponent Ludicolo. So i think the rain team are not so broken, but rather a good surprise weapon, which I use in other tier.
Because even the main issue is not damp rock, I think.
Usually I put Rain Dance on three pokemon, only once with Damp Rock. I think it would not be so restrictive not have the Damp Rock, if I want to use rain team.

 

[Infernis]

Spinda has no real use now in most of the meta, though.

Yep! I was making a joke.

On the note of Torkoal, though, it's my backup response to Liepard on a couple teams. The defensive spinner set is pretty difficult to kill with Foul Play, plus it still 2HKOs with Lava Plume. Swellow is also pretty darn good at countering the thing. It's immune to paralysis if Flame Orb is already activated, plus Quick Attack can actually deal some major damage before any of Liepard's moves. Plus, if you get Swaggered, Swellow's a pretty darn good sweeper at +2 or +4 attack. (Assuming the Random Number God favors you.) Or you can beat yourself to death. What fun it is, playing against Liepard!

 

[Punchshroom]

Ironically, the best response against annoying T-Wave Liepards are Encore Liepards. In case you haven't got my message, T-Wave Liepard sucks.

 

[Shuckleking87]

Well, in my opinion, lum berry dragon dance tropius is a great conger to liepard. However, though encore has its merits, thunder wave is a very good option spreading paralysis to help bulkier sweepers, especially with the increase in the speed tier.

 

[Punchshroom]

Prankster Thunder Wave seems good, but Liepard in practice is a very poor user of the move because he has such poor defenses and survivability. I'd much rather use Murkrow or Volbeat who, despite the SR weakness, can actually survive a neutral STAB hit and heal off the damage to live to tell the tale (Volbeat is probably better off fully supporting the team though).

Edit: Should Liepard have Encore, Dragon Dance would just backfire like almost any other non-damaging move out there (Thunder Wave: 0 ; Encore: >9000). DD also makes Tropius susceptible to Foul Play, and banana dino isn't fast enough to outspeed Liepard at +1.

Edit v (below): Yeah Scraggy's a bitch for Liepard to face.

 

[Cherub Agent]

Scraggy is an excellent answer thanks to its quadruple Dark resist, Shed Skin to cure status, and Drain Punch which OHKOs liepard and heals any confusion damage.

 

[GOthee]

Lets chaneg the topic. Many consider TW Liepard useless. many dont. I think he is far from useless becasue of amzing ability Prankster. Well anyways..

What do you think about Munchlax ?? He hasnt recieved so much use, or is he competetively being used more than what the statistics show.

 

[WhiteDMist]

Lets chaneg the topic. Many consider TW Liepard useless. many dont. I think he is far from useless becasue of amzing ability Prankster. Well anyways..

What do you think about Munchlax ?? He hasnt recieved so much use, or is he competetively being used more than what the statistics show.

No, the debate isn't about whether Prankster Liepard is good, but whether Liepard is better off using Thunder Wave or Encore. But yeah, everyone can just head over to this thread to continue such a debate.

Munchlax isn't used all that much because it is better suited for defensive teams, which are still pretty rare in this metagame. You CAN run an offensive Munchlax that still has the bulk to handle Jynx to a degree, but generally you would be better off just using a faster Pokemon to revenge kill. The stats literally count the number of times Munchlax is used, so I think it is accurate enough a portayal. As for my own opinion of it, I don't care for its reliance on RestTalk for recovery. Like many other players, I hate that it basically becomes dead weight the minute it uses Rest, meaning that you have to take advantage of the few turns it can afford to NOT use Rest while still maintaining decent HP (a very difficult thing to do). That's not to ignore the fact that this meta is STILL very physically oriented, making Lickilicky more popular due to Wish and Heal Bell being useful for a larger variety of teams.

 

[Ewil]

Actually i use Munchlax on a defensive team and he does a great job in phazing and spreading occasional paralysis (i'm not too lucky) and he's a pretty good Jynx counter. I paired Munchlax with Pivot Musharna that can remedy with Heal Bell to the Sleep caused by Rest. In any case Sleep Talk helps a lot in most situations, so is not that dead weight while he's asleep. I've faced a Curse Munchlax with Leftovers and he was pretty effective (not that much, because i'd Haze in my team :P)

 

[skylight]

Hm just wondering but has anyone else been facing slower, more stage 8-orientated teams on the ladder? I mean I prepare for the relevant threats now, and not stuff from the last metagame, but it appears that people are getting really creative. Are all your teams equipped to handle things like CM Mushy in every second team, and do you think that those Pokemon that we expect not to be used are actually things we need to prepare for the most - or do you think they're less relevant now? (As they pretty much can fuck around with teams more suited to this metagame).

 

[Ewil]

I think that the 8-round threats like Sub-BU Braviary and CM Musharna are minor threats in this meta. Actually anyone runs faster mons and a Dark-Type, with Skuntank and Scolipede on a lot of teams, Mushy has a bad time to setup CMs. Sub-BU Braviary due to the less usege of Rock Types that he loves to setup on and to the raise popularity of SR setter like Piloswine and Seismitoad, he founds a bad time to setup too. Basically for me, the only 8-round threat that has remained a threat is Sawk, but he founds competition with Premeape that is faster and has a momentum gainer with U-turn.

 

[Dell]

Hm just wondering but has anyone else been facing slower, more stage 8-orientated teams on the ladder? I mean I prepare for the relevant threats now, and not stuff from the last metagame, but it appears that people are getting really creative. Are all your teams equipped to handle things like CM Mushy in every second team, and do you think that those Pokemon that we expect not to be used are actually things we need to prepare for the most - or do you think they're less relevant now? (As they pretty much can fuck around with teams more suited to this metagame).

Not sure if I can answer this in the sort of pace or tone that you're probably looking for, but honestly I feel that most of Stage 8's metagame nowadays consists of their general inability to keep up with the fast-paced offensive nature of the metagame generally speaking since most of Stage 8's most prominent threats tends to rely on a lot prediction and more team support based upon a typing and speed tiers that oftentimes leave then to being punished a lot more so by more adapted teams.

Regarding Pokemon like Musharna, however, the reason why it is still a necessity to invest on some sort of worthwhile check for it is because on paper it's significant enough of a threat in general to decide their entire prominence in an actual battle based on team matchup (well it's always been that way honestly). Every competent player prepares for metagame threats that fits in this specific category because that's the kind of situation that's generally considered the deciding factor in which if you don't carry some sort of proper check to those kind of threats then you would be prone to becoming steamrolled nearly entirely whereas if you do actually prepare for it then it won't be of any major issue for you, in which case the latter is often superior even if they are showing a sub-par in the metagame on paper. So from there, even if you do inadvertently structure your team on a way that functions especially well in the Stage 9 metagame, chances are that basing off of the general prominence of the threats here will you only at worse be facing the situation in which if you're playing smart in the prediction and threat management department, you'll probably only run into a few Stage 8 prominent random threats that might trouble your team (such as idk, Life Orb/SubDisable Haunter? Either way this particular Pokemon probably hasn't changed all that much so that probably wasn't the best example).

Anyhow, one particular topic that I've always wanted to cover in the current metagame is the potential prominence of Hyper Offense in the current metagame. Seeing as this is generally considered to be an often under-looked strategy (and actually one of my favorite play styles), has anyone ever tried structuring a team of this sort? Frankly, it isn't much surprise if this wouldn't be the case since Hyper Offense teams have always been quite rare. I feel that a team arch-type of this play style can definitely be a wake up call to most Stage 9 team lineups that we've seen climb the ladder, with many options for setup sweepers that's proven to be very solid in the metagame (such as Shell Smash Carracosta, Calm Mind Serperior, SubSalac Scolipede, Nasty Plot Misdreavus, SubBU Braviary, etc.) and tend to have good synergy in terms of typing and threat management with plenty of teams that each individual sweeper are capable of posing as a threat towards with plenty of hazard and dual screen users to choose from. How do you think Hyper Offense would fare in the current metagame?

 

[Infernis]

As someone who primarily runs a hyper offense team (plus Torkoal), I'd say it works pretty well. HOWEVER, it has some serious problems with bulkier teams. Piloswine, Carracosta, Skuntank, Alomomola, some Misdreavus, and Musharna are particular threats. With a Hyper Offense team, it's nigh-impossible to have more than one counter to each of those. If you lose your priority users, Piloswine, Carracosta, and Skuntank can deal some serious damage. The walls are difficult to break without dedicating teammates to the task. Musharna practically has to be hit super-effectively, or it's going to set up.

Hyper offense is decent in stage 9, but a lot of stage 8 threats trip it up quite a bit.

 

[ium]

i wouldn't really structure hyper offensive teams to ensure that i have every single bulky pokemon covered. isn't the point to just pressure the most concerning pokemon through boosted strong hits until other members of the same part of the attacking spectrum can break through? rain dance teams are a common example seeing as how things like lickilicky, munchlax, and regice are great checks but are nowhere near able to fend off several rain threats repeatedly. hyper offense just capitalizes on the fact that the opposing team will more often than not have very few good answers to a certain range of threats.

i've been messing around with kingler recently because it seemed decent on paper, but at best it's just okay. i originally thought about having something that can utilize good speed to take advantage of a frail metagame, but the agility set is grossly weak, and a double boosting set is ridiculously dumb except against ladder because nobody in their right mind would let kingler set up twice in a row. i've had more success with substitute + swords dance or agility, with salac berry and petaya berry respectively, but i'm more or less using a samurott, which can basically compensate for its lower speed with aqua jet. kingler has a few merits like messing around with substitute, which allows it to catch weezing or misdreavus off-guard and 2HKO them at +2, or being able to smack jynx with an x-scissor when you're faster or protected by substitute, but there aren't any other vast differences aside from annoyer being weak to it.