Pokémon Greninja

[ChunkyShtew]

You can EV it to outspeed base 120s (Alakazam) and dumping the remaining EVs into HP for a LO number or Atk for a stronger U-Turn. So your spread would look like: 16 HP or 16 Atk / 252 SAtk / 240 Spd with a Naive Nature.

Thanks for the fast response! That makes sense about alakazam, I'd agree 240speed is a good number.

What about transfering some special attack to attack to increase that u-turn damage? Or would that be silly to do since 3 of my attacks are special attacks anyways? Also would hydro pump OHKO a bold 160spD EV Klefki? I'm finding him to be quite common running the prankster thunder wave/swagger/substitute/foul play set

 

[Schpoonman]

I wouldn't do 120s alone just yet. Wait to see if Tornadus-T makes a return.

 

[The Great Gastly]

The move-set I'm planning on running is something like this...

Greninja @ Life Orb / Focus Sash
Timid Nature -- EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpAtk / 252 Spe
- (Toxic) Spikes
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- U-Turn / Grass Knot / other coverage move?

My question... do you think HP Fire is entirely necessary for a spiking / toxic spiking set like this? :O
I've paired him with Noivern + Galvantula to form a strong Volt-Turn core that can provide Tailwind, Sticky Web, and Spikes support. Try it out!

Also, irrelevant to competitive play, but I finally bred a timid + six 31 IV Protean Froakie this morning and I'd like to move on to Galvantula so I can test the three of them working together... I'm just hoping HP Fire isn't necessary. :s

 

[Schpoonman]

Water Shuriken is weaker than Waterfall (tops out at 75, I don't know why the fuck GameFreak would buff all these multi-hit moves like Bullet Seed in BW and then introduce a new one that's nearly half as strong). Water Shuriken's REAL merit is a priority type change. You're Fire-type from HP Fire and Azumarill just switched in? Water Shuriken ensures you take dick for damage (for a certain value of "dick for damage") and can seriously hurt Azumarill the next turn with Grass Knot.

The reason I would run HP Fire on a Spiking set is because of all the Pokemon that can potentially remove your hazards that are weak to Fire: Forretress, Scizor, and Skarmory all come to mind. I don't know how fast exactly 30 Spe IV Greninja is, though; does he outspeed Tornadus-T still?

 

[bluebolt]

I made a physical set, but while it's not strong, it can use prediction to avoid attacks rather than just resisting them and can turn itself into Ghost Type to prevent its spikes from being spun away. I dunno what item it should use, though. The only problem with this so far is probably just that it could switch into a pokemon with the types of its Protean attacks instead of being immune itself, bar the unliklihood it'd be outsped. It has a niche of potentially killing some pokemon that don't predict the set itself, and having a priority ghost move against Gengar. I think this could be a lot better, aside from me being too cowardly to choose which natures, EVs or item would be best. So halp me. :I

Ability: Protean

-U-turn
-Spikes
-Shadow Sneak
-Water Shuriken / Waterfall

 

[The Great Gastly]

Water Shuriken is always weaker than Waterfall (tops out at 75, I don't know why the fuck GameFreak would buff all these multi-hit moves like Bullet Seed in BW and then introduce a new one that's nearly half as strong). Water Shuriken's REAL merit is a priority type change. You're Fire-type from HP Fire and Azumarill just switched in? Water Shuriken ensures you take dick for damage (for a certain value of "dick for damage") and can seriously hurt Azumarill the next turn with Grass Knot.

The reason I would run HP Fire on a Spiking set is because of all the Pokemon that can potentially remove your hazards that are weak to Fire: Forretress, Scizor, and Skarmory all come to mind. I don't know how fast exactly 30 Spe IV Greninja is, though; does he outspeed Tornadus-T still?

Fair enough, but the threats you listed still don't enjoy taking Life Orb boosted Hydro Pumps due to their weaker special defense + Hydro Pump's respectable BP. (Hydro Pump is also stronger than a super-effective HP Fire on skarm!)

They may not all be OHKO'd entirely, but they could only have one chance to remove the hazards against a well-played offensive team. And as for Tornadus-T, i'm sure it's still outsped when running HP Fire, but I don't know for sure. :O

 

[Schpoonman]

Hydro Pump is weaker than SE HP Fire.

Hydro Pump: 77.98 - 92.35%
HP Fire: 85.93 - 100.91%

I believe you also forgot to incorporate STAB and Hydro Pump's BP drop.

 

[Thorhammer]

Water Shuriken is always weaker than Waterfall (tops out at 75, I don't know why the fuck GameFreak would buff all these multi-hit moves like Bullet Seed in BW and then introduce a new one that's nearly half as strong). Water Shuriken's REAL merit is a priority type change. You're Fire-type from HP Fire and Azumarill just switched in? Water Shuriken ensures you take dick for damage (for a certain value of "dick for damage") and can seriously hurt Azumarill the next turn with Grass Knot.

The real appeal of Water Shuriken is priority; it hits harder than Aqua Jet most of the time and on average. Of course, with its Attack stat and lack of boosting moves, Greninja isn't exactly an ideal priority user; it's better off making use of its Speed to deal heavier blows to slower enemies.

 

[The Great Gastly]

Hydro Pump is weaker than SE HP Fire.

Hydro Pump: 77.98 - 92.35%
HP Fire: 85.93 - 100.91%

I believe you also forgot to incorporate STAB and Hydro Pump's BP drop.

Oops, I forgot Protean working with hidden power.

However, I'm going to personally stay away from HP Fire (since I now have my perfect Froakie and never want to see another one hatching again...), but I can for sure see its place on some sets. :]

Also, in general, do I have the right idea with my set? I'm not sure if U-Turn is the best idea with Timid Nature, but I know it'd be used more for the momentum and free switch opportunities... this guy has so many options I wish I could fit them all on one set! :O

 

[Schpoonman]

Dude, you're gonna want a Froakie with every Hidden Power type. Imagine if Starmie could learn Flamethrower. That is why you want a Froakie with every Hidden Power type.

EDIT: no wai

 

[Fennekin]

Been using the standard special set on online matches (Hydro Pump / Ice Beam / Grass Knot / Dark Pulse @ LO) and it's wonderful to no end. Admittedly, I could see Naive U-Turn being perhaps even more effective than my set. Either way, has anyone tried out Shadow Sneak or HP Ghost? Being a pure ghost seems pretty useful every now and then, too. Spin/HJK blocking is never a bad thing to have.

 

[Shroomisaur]

Been using the standard special set on online matches (Hydro Pump / Ice Beam / Grass Knot / Dark Pulse @ LO) and it's wonderful to no end. Admittedly, I could see Naive U-Turn being perhaps even more effective than my set. Either way, has anyone tried out Shadow Sneak or HP Ghost? Being a pure ghost seems pretty useful every now and then, too. Spin/HJK blocking is never a bad thing to have.

Is there a specific reason to run Dark Pulse? With Protean STAB on everything, I think I'd much rather have HP Fire or U-Turn in that final slot.

As for Shadow Sneak and HP Ghost hijinks, yes that's argued quite a bit here. If you run U-Turn one of the biggest advantages is the ability to hit with it and immediately switch out to your Ghost-type. That's why it's generally not worth a moveslot for the sole purpose of avoiding spin.

 

[NinjaSonic]

Anybody consider lead Physical Greninja.

Greninja @ ITEM (Assault Vest/Leftovers/Life Orb) Not sure here.
252 Atk/252 Speed/4 HP
Jolly (+Speed, -Special Attack)

Spikes
Water Shuriken
Shadow Sneak
U-Turn

It hits every rapid spinner for at least neutral damage, also can protect it's own Spikes. 2 Priority moves makes it easy to keep damage off to an extent. Also pairs well with a Volt Switch partner perhaps Galvantula. May sound dumb but could almost be a dual lead team.

 

[Ser Olmy ap Sennon]

In all honesty, I'm wondering if Adamant would be a better fit since you're still the fastest non-Prankster Spiker and usually the fastest Toxic Spiker, and two of your offensive moves have priority. Just a thought. I'm not looking at Speed numbers right now, or running damage calcs on + or neutral attack natures either, but I may when my brain is working better.

 

[NinjaSonic]

On the Greninja build I posted any ideas on the best item? I was considering Focus Sash so you'll get at least two Spikes off. I'm thinking GrenGantula could be a thing but looking for some input. I know it's not supposed to discuss two Pokemon but they compliment each other well.

Greninja @ ITEM (Focus Sash/Not sure still)
Protean
252 Atk/252 Speed/4 HP
Jolly

Spikes
Water Shuriken
Shadow Sneak
U-Turn

Galvantula @ ITEM
Compound Eyes
252 SpA/252 Spe/4 HP
Modest

Volt Switch
Thunder
Energy Ball
Sticky Web/Bug Buzz/Toxic

If this is the wrong place for this anybody have an idea where to post a dual lead thing.

 

[PJ_Graphix]

Any insight on if protean greninja could be used to counter/check SB Blaziken/Mega Blaziken? With priority shadow sneak to make his HJK crash and priority water shuriken to take him out (unsure on damage calculations)? Seems to me Blaziken isn't left with many sweeping options other than baton passing out. And then greninja has access to haze.

Any thoughts or are there too much mind games / prediction to make it viable? Sorry if this has been discussed. Too many pages on this thread to search for it specifically

 

[bonk]

Is there any reason why Taunt isn't used on anyone's spike set? Taunt would take care of pokemon planning to defog your spikes away, and then U-turn would be used to put in a spin blocker.

EDIT: Set I had in mind:

Spikes Danger w/ Taunt
Greninja @ Focus Sash / Leftovers
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Atk
Hasty/Naive Nature
- Spikes
- U-turn
- Taunt
- Hydro Pump/Ice Beam/HP Fire/Grass Knot (Depends on what your team needs)

Of course you could go all physical and use other moves in the last slot with the added bonus of a much stronger U-turn

 

[Thorhammer]

+0 252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja (resisted): 212-250 (83.4%-98.1%)
+2 252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja (resisted): 425-500 (166.8%-196.2%)

What HJK?

EDIT: Scratch those calculations; I used the wrong stats. Assumed Serebii's minimums were 31 IVs and 0 EVs like Smogon's, but they're 0 IVs and 0 EVs.

Actual range is 175-206 (61.5%-72.3%), which isn't nearly as awful. Of course, that's at +0. If Greninja switches into Swords Dance, it gets OHKOed by Flare Blitz the next turn. If it switches into Flare Blitz, it gets finished off the next turn. If it switches into HJK, it's already dead.

 

[EtherDrive]

there would never be any reason for greninja to switch into anything unless you want it to take the fall

With that said, greninja would be faster on the first turn they're both out anyway. Hydro Pump, Surf, Waterfall, Extrasensory, Acrobatics

You have options

 

[Jaetheho]

Any insight on if protean greninja could be used to counter/check SB Blaziken/Mega Blaziken? With priority shadow sneak to make his HJK crash and priority water shuriken to take him out (unsure on damage calculations)? Seems to me Blaziken isn't left with many sweeping options other than baton passing out. And then greninja has access to haze.

Any thoughts or are there too much mind games / prediction to make it viable? Sorry if this has been discussed. Too many pages on this thread to search for it specifically

In this case, why would you start off with the shadow sneak when you can start off with the water shuriken?

It's way safer as if the blaziken flareblitzes, gg

 

[Mocha]

This post of mine is probably better off in a Spikes thread discussion, but I'm starting to question the viability of Spikes on Greninja, let alone Spikes at all. Other than messing with Focus Sashes, it doesn't seem that reliable, plus you have to take three turns if you want to get the most out of it, and Greninja doesn't strike me as being durable for that long. And it doesn't affect Flying/Levitate Pokemon, which, now with all the Sticky Web nonsense, encourages people to use them more.

Not to mention, with all the Defog/Rapid Spin, it doesn't seem worth it. I'm sure it has its uses though, but I'm not convinced yet. It's not like Greninja is lacking in his movepool, especially since it's a struggle to find only 4 moves to squeeze into his moveset. With Spikes, you're missing another potentially better option.

 

[RufflesPro]

I'm surprised people didn't bring up some physical set, I ran this set on my Greninja and gave some good result

Greninja @ Fighting Gem / Flying Gem
Ability: Torrent / Protean
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant/Hasty Nature
- Power-Up Punch / U-Turn
- Acrobatics
- Waterfall
- Night Slash / U-Turn

Fighting Gem to make that Power-Up Punch really powerful (Especially if Super Effective), then you'd lose your item, making Acrobatics base 110 power, not to mention your +1 Atk, Flying on him is really good (IMO) because it removes three threats to Greninja: Bug, Fight, AND Grass, the only pokemon that MIGHT survive a +1 Acrobatics is Conkeldurr -Maybe. Waterfall is as better than Hydro Pump after +1 Atk, and that chance of flinching with that Speed is nice nice nice! I just put U-turn with that Power-Up Punch if you chose the Flying Gem.

Flying Gem + Acrobatics is always good, but without a fighting gem, Power-Up Punch doesn't do that much, so U-Turn is probably prefered. The rest is the same. But hey I forgot to say something, when Protean comes out, Acrobatics can be really good because that makes Fighting and Grass Not Very Effective.

 

[Shroomisaur]

Greninja @ Fighting Gem / Flying Gem
Ability: Torrent / Protean
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant/Hasty Nature
- Power-Up Punch / U-Turn
- Acrobatics
- Waterfall
- Rapid Spin / Night Slash / U-Turn

- Rapid Spin / Night Slash / U-Turn

- Rapid Spin

ಠ_ಠ

 

[Punchshroom]

I don't get why people are still trying to block the spin with a situational move when they can just hit almost every spinner hard or outright KO them, then get right back to hazard setting. It has the speed, power and of course coverage to do so.

 

[Shroomisaur]

I don't get why people are still trying to block the spin with a situational move when they can just hit almost every spinner hard or outright KO them, then get right back to hazard setting. It has the speed, power and of course coverage to do so.

I don't get it either, but I gave up arguing against it about 10 pages or so ago. People are just crazy about turning into a Ghost even though there's no reason to do so. Dodging fighting moves and Rapid Spin is cool, but Greninja does not exist in a Vacuum. Even putting aside the fact that Greninja could directly KO most spinners... you have teammates to handle them. Ghost types all have excellent synergy with Greninja to begin with, so there's no reason not to simply U-Turn out to a counter.

Love your username btw