Pokémon Greninja

[flUddOS]

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Atk
Hasty Nature
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power [Fire] / U-turn
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam

I think it's pretty clear that this is going to be the definitive set for Greninja. Spikes/Toxic Spikes are looking to be pretty mediocre, and while HP:Fire is great, it's so hard to get in game that most people will probably decide to go with U-Turn for utility. There's also the possibility that people will EV specifically to outspeed +Speed base 120s in order to pack a stronger U-Turn. Switch to Timid/4 HP for sets that don't include U-Turn.

 

[shack]

So has anyone tried a stall set playing with immunities and resistances? Something along the lines of:

EVs in Speed and HP, Leftovers
- Dark Pulse
- Shadow Sneak
- Substitue
- Spikes (or a fairy move for dragons)

The idea is to get a sub out then use your speed to continuously switch to something that is immune or resists the main threat. Of course this works best with entry hazards, burn/poison. It would take a lot of practice, but the point is to let the hazards break them down while you resist they're attacks.

 

[Schpoonman]

So has anyone tried a stall set playing with immunities and resistances? Something along the lines of:

EVs in Speed and HP, Leftovers
- Dark Pulse
- Shadow Sneak
- Substitue
- Spikes (or a fairy move for dragons)

The idea is to get a sub out then use your speed to continuously switch to something that is immune or resists the main threat. Of course this works best with entry hazards, burn/poison. It would take a lot of practice, but the point is to let the hazards break them down while you resist they're attacks.

This might, MIGHT, work on a bulkier Pokemon as far as abusing resistances goes, but Greninja is far too frail to abuse it effectively. Use Protean for its offensive benefits.

 

[gvmgvm40]

Okay the Greninja set:

Greninja @ Life Orb
Protean
~ Toxic Spikes / Spikes / U-Turn / Water Shuriken
~ Hydro Pump
~ Ice Beam
~ Dark Pulse / Grass Knot / HP Fire / Extrasensory

If you're running anything not mentioned here, you're running something outclassed. If you're trying to use Protean for defensive purposes, you're doing it wrong. If you're trying to use a physical attacking set, you're doing it wrong. If you're trying to spinblock fsr when you can OHKO literally every viable spinner except Tentacruel, you're doing it wrong.

Ideally you'd run enough speed to outrun +120s and dump the rest into Attack/HP depending on your utility move.

 

[RufflesPro]

I believe a set that is hard is hard to wall is

Greninja @ Fighting Gem / Flying Gem
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SpA
Adamant / Hasty Nature
- Power-Up Punch
- Acrobatics
- Waterfall
- Night Slash / HP Fire
I know it's Physical, but who can wall it? If Ferrathorn actually survived Power-Up Punch with Fighting Gem, he can't possibly take STAB +1 Power-Up Punch after that. Forratress can survive a hit because of sturdy, Skarmory can wall a Waterfall, but definitely not a +1 Waterfall (Ofc sturdy gets activated if he had Full HP) Umbreon has the same case as Ferrathorn, a 252 HP / 252 Def Politoad cannot be OHKO-ed by anything I believe, but using a Fighting Gem PUP then a +1 STAB PUP can easily overdo it. but if you already did your Fighting Gem PUP, then Acrobatics can probably kill him. Or, if you have, Night slash will do it. HP Fire is nice on mons like him though, But I'd rather have Night Slash.

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SpA / 4 Atk
Hasty Nature
- Hydro Pump / Surf
- Night Slash
- Ice Beam
- HP Fire
I also used this set, Night Slash is really only for special walls like Blissey and 252 HP / 252 SpD Politaod and Vaporeon and Jellicent etc. Umbreon can wall this set easily, but Hydro Pump, if fails to 2HKO (Which I believe is rare, can definitely 3HKO), Sylveon can also wall this set, but I'd rather switch for any Fairy type I see.

 

[56k]

I dont think Greninja hardly ever has room for Spikes in his moveset, because he absolutely needs all 4 moves of coverage to do his hit-and-run sweeping as effectively as possible. Those spikes also are almost guaranteed to get blown away too, so if you do find a way to use them, it'd better be part of an overall plan and not just hazards-because-why-not.

It's really really unfortunate that Hidden Power does not provide STAB, so many 4x weaknesses he can hit actually don't even get the KO.

The mixed sets seem encouraging, and I like the Power Up Punch and Acrobatics ideas. Sets without LO are also nice to see, because I've seen many a Greninja slowly worn down just from LO Recoil, Iron Barbs, and Hazards without ever hitting a Super Effective move.

Many sets feel compelled to carry a water type move, but remember that Ninja's STAB is always changing and such a compulsion doesn't exist. Are you sure you're hitting many things SE with water moves? If so keep on keeping on, but I have a feeling Ground/Rock/Fire types ALWAYS switch out and you never actually manage to hit with that move. You can try bluffing carrying a water move and use that slot for something else. Also think about what actually threatens your team. Maybe that water move could better belong with your Gastrodon or Rotom-W, freeing up Greninja to run something like IceBeam/DarkPulse/RockSlide/U-Turn

 

[Sir Lemongrab]

After messing around a sort of lead/scout set (Waterfall, Shadow Sneak, U-Turn, and Mat Block) I've come to the conclusion that, in my opinion, Night Slash would be far superior in terms dealing raw damage and setting up quick kills. Running Jolly, you'd need a Life Orb for Shadow Sneak to do any real damage, and Greninja is frail enough as it is. Dark and Ghost both offer the same coverage, and an immunity to Psychic is arguably better than the less common Normal and Fighting. On top of that, there are better users of Shadow Sneak if you need to pick off a kill, or to spinblock. Just my two cents on the matter.

 

[Schpoonman]

After messing around a sort of lead/scout set (Waterfall, Shadow Sneak, U-Turn, and Mat Block) I've come to the conclusion that, in my opinion, Night Slash would be far superior in terms dealing raw damage and setting up quick kills. Running Jolly, you'd need a Life Orb for Shadow Sneak to do any real damage, and Greninja is frail enough as it is. Dark and Ghost both offer the same coverage, and an immunity to Psychic is arguably better than the less common Normal and Fighting. On top of that, there are better users of Shadow Sneak if you need to pick off a kill, or to spinblock. Just my two cents on the matter.

I'm sorry, Psychic as an attacking type is more common than Fighting? I originally meant to be a sarcastic ass in asking this, but seriously, did you play 5th Gen Pokemon?

 

[Sir Lemongrab]

I'm sorry, Psychic as an attacking type is less common than Fighting? I originally meant to be a sarcastic ass in asking this, but seriously, did you play 5th Gen Pokemon?

Wait what. I didn't say that. I said that Normal and Fighting are less common than Psychic as attacking types.

 

[Schpoonman]

Sorry. The point I was TRYING to make still stands.

 

[Sir Lemongrab]

Sorry. The point I was TRYING to make still stands.

No, I'll admit it, you're probably right. Maybe it's just me specifically remembering Psychic- type being more popular, and I could be totally wrong about that. The point I was trying to make still stands, as well, though. :-P

 

[Schpoonman]

Well of course Night Slash is better for getting KOs, it's nearly twice as powerful as Shadow Sneak. But if you'd been paying attention to my last few posts you'd see that I maintain that priority on Greninja is a niche option at best for priority type changing. In this regard, Shadow Sneak is absolutely better than Night Slash, because that +2/+2 Blaziken just fell on its ass with HJK and put it in KO range for, I don't know, Water Shuriken.

All that being said, a physical Greninja is a wasted Greninja. His special movepool is so fucking good that going physical (not just running U-turn, I mean dedicated physical moveset with physical investment) is like going the minimum speed on the Autobahn in a Ferrari. You can do what you want, you're not hurting anyone, but come on, be smart about this.

 

[Taven]

Well of course Night Slash is better for getting KOs, it's nearly twice as powerful as Shadow Sneak. But if you'd been paying attention to my last few posts you'd see that I maintain that priority on Greninja is a niche option at best for priority type changing. In this regard, Shadow Sneak is absolutely better than Night Slash, because that +2/+2 Blaziken just fell on its ass with HJK and put it in KO range for, I don't know, Water Shuriken.

All that being said, a physical Greninja is a wasted Greninja. His special movepool is so fucking good that going physical (not just running U-turn, I mean dedicated physical moveset with physical investment) is like going the minimum speed on the Autobahn in a Ferrari. You can do what you want, you're not hurting anyone, but come on, be smart about this.

I'm curious to know what you think is the superior special set. I'm really torn between Grass Knot and U Turn currently.

 

[Schpoonman]

That's a really hard question to satisfy because Greninja has so many options. It really depends on what your team needs, and I hate to say that but it's true. The metagame is so fresh that I don't know enough about what's popular to give you a hard and fast answer. Do you fear Azumarill and bulky waters more or do you want the utility of U-turn?

 

[Lady Valkyrie]

I'm curious to know what you think is the superior special set. I'm really torn between Grass Knot and U Turn currently.

I'd run U-Turn if you're spiking leads. Starmie does get hit for 80 from Grass Knot though, so it ties Dark Pulse. Pokes like Gyarados (120), Tyranitar (120), Jellicent (100), Cloyster (100), Blastoise (80/100 in Mega) get hit hard for super-effective STAB, if they're still dominant in the metagame and you're using the ninja late game, I'd say Grass Knot's more valuable.

Extrasensory's interesting as fighting types looking to come in on it are resisted and it's taking neutral from all of its old threats. It seems the best move for keeping him alive... until Mega Gengar comes in who's able to wall it in just about every form. Focus Blast, Thunderbolt, Shadow Ball and even a potential Fire Blast ruins it in every way. I think running U-Turn is valuable, with speed invested you'll outrun Gengar before it can Mega Evolve. If it gets off the Mega, you're out sped and dead.

My bad, you can out speed and get out before Gengar traps you - so max speed looks crucial as Gengar will probably be running around a lot in this meta game.

 

[Taven]

I'd run U-Turn if you're spiking leads. Starmie does get hit for 80 from Grass Knot though, so it ties Dark Pulse. Pokes like Gyarados (120), Tyranitar (120), Jellicent (100), Cloyster (100), Blastoise (80/100 in Mega) get hit hard for super-effective STAB, if they're still dominant in the metagame and you're using the ninja late game, I'd say Grass Knot's more valuable.

Extrasensory's interesting as fighting types looking to come in on it are resisted and it's taking neutral from all of its old threats. It seems the best move for keeping him alive... until Mega Gengar comes in who's able to wall it in just about every form. Focus Blast, Thunderbolt, Shadow Ball and even a potential Fire Blast ruins it in every way. I think running U-Turn is valuable, with speed invested you'll outrun Gengar before it can Mega Evolve. If it gets off the Mega, you're out sped and dead.

My bad, you can out speed and get out before Gengar traps you - so max speed looks crucial as Gengar will probably be running around a lot in this meta game.

I Agree, Extrasensory will be really great for dealing with both Gengar and Fighters. But where would it fit in?

Using U-Turn and Extrasensory leaves Ice Beam, Hydro Pump, and Hidden Power fire. I'm leaning more towards The first two as I can already deal with steel types but it is a hard choice nonetheless.

 

[Lady Valkyrie]

I Agree, Extrasensory will be really great for dealing with both Gengar and Fighters. But where would it fit in?

Using U-Turn and Extrasensory leaves Ice Beam, Hydro Pump, and Hidden Power fire. I'm leaning more towards The first two as I can already deal with steel types but it is a hard choice nonetheless.

Seeing as Greninja gets STAB off everything it fits in on just about most teams, so I think it's up to what your team needs coverage for. Hidden Power Fire seems like a bit off a waste, it's really only seems to be doing you favors for Ice/Steel. It seems necessary for hitting Scizor/Fortress/Ferrothorn but I think you'd be better squeezing HP Fire onto something else or using generic Fire against them (ala Heatran). 60 BP STAB (90 BP) is weaker than most of Greninja's better moves with their STAB.

Extrasensory only deals with regular Gengar, you'd get trapped once it Mega'd and likely OHKO'd by Shadow Ball. Ice Beam for Drags/Breloom/Part-Flyings like Togekiss that already have trouble coming into SR. Hydro Pump is best for hitting neutral, Fire types in the meta-game currently are just more trouble than they're worth, Ice already deals with Ground.

Water's only get super effective on Aerodactyl (might creep back up to OU with a Mega, but gets pwned by Ice), T-Tar (which now has 7 weakness) and Terrakion (again, plenty of weakness on it already). I'd almost forge neutral STAB for something that gets better coverage with STAB on everything. Just about everything can run T-Bolt: Starmie, Gengar, Blissey, T-Tar and I think that would ultimately be the ninja's downfall.

So,
Extrasensory - 80 BP, for pesky fighting types looking to come in on it and Terrakion.
Ice Beam - 90 BP, reasons above.
Grass Knot for Gyarados, Blastoise, Jellicent and Cloyster (I wouldn't use it on T-Tar as it could hit back with Fire Blast),
U-Turn for keeping up momentum
OR Dark Pulse - 80 BP for Latias/Latios, Jirachi (haha), Slowbro/King, Celebi M-Gardevoir, Cresselia and Espeon.

Woah, Dark Pulse looks like it will be invaluable on Greninja. Especially now that Jirachi takes super-effective on Ghost/Dark, but it's not available yet nor the Lati twins.

 

[Fluffy Blue Bunny]

Can anyone please explain to me why everyone seems to consider "hasty" the best nature for mixed Greninja instead of "naive?" Considering the prevalence of Aegislash and Scizor, I would assume that people would rather not lower Greninja's physical bulk in order to live priority attacks. I personally run "naive" and that allows me to revenge +2 (shadow sneak) Aegislash at good health. Not to mention that Greninja is often 2HKO'd by resisted special hits anyway.

 

[Kyrone619]

I know his attack is not his best stats but this guy gets Water Shuriken (a priority water move), Shadow Sneak (A priority Ghost move) and U-Turn (a bug switch move). If you could breed Ice shard onto him it would create an awesome gimmick set with protean.

Even if he cannot learn that there are options for a physical set such as acrobatics, theif, spikes, protect or you could even try out power up punch. Be interested in seeing what bred moves he learns.

He can literally be your hazard and spin blocker with protean (spikes/shadow sneak) Can be funny that you turn ground to take that first lightning attack and lay spikes, they switch to a spinner as you put then second layer down then your priority with shadow sneaks and become the spin blocker and with his great speed you can very easily U-Turn out and come back later to annoy :D

*edit*
Decided I like this theory so much I am going to go test it, so breeding time <.<'

 

[Punchshroom]

I know his attack is not his best stats but this guy gets Water Shuriken (a priority water move), Shadow Sneak (A priority Ghost move) and U-Turn (a bug switch move). If you could breed Ice shard onto him it would create an awesome gimmick set with protean.

Even if he cannot learn that there are options for a physical set such as acrobatics, theif, spikes, protect or you could even try out power up punch. Be interested in seeing what bred moves he learns.

He can literally be your hazard and spin blocker with protean (spikes/shadow sneak) Can be funny that you turn ground to take that first lightning attack and lay spikes, they switch to a spinner as you put then second layer down then your priority with shadow sneaks and become the spin blocker and with his great speed you can very easily U-Turn out and come back later to annoy :D

Here's a better idea: instead of dicking around with the spinner, why not just smash it with your arsenal of STAB moves, then setting the hazards back again right after (assuming they have been spun)? Using Shadow Sneak reduces your overall coverage against a majority of threats.

 

[Kyrone619]

Here's a better idea: instead of dicking around with the spinner, why not just smash it with your arsenal of STAB moves, then setting the hazards back again right after (assuming they have been spun)? Using Shadow Sneak reduces your overall coverage against a majority of threats.

If I spent 3 turns laying spikes and they just throw in a spinner I would much rather protean to a ghost type to stop the rapid spin then have to set up all the layers of spikes again and do some damage rather than switching to a ghost type, which would take even longer to get spikes back up. Then again against someone using defog the point would be moot.

However with just 8 more Sp.Atk, greninja is not exactly going to be an impressive damager, so having spikes, water shuriken and shadow sneak with one more slot (probably U-turn) does not make me sweat about a sub-par damagers coverage, especially if he can get in some easy priority kills.

 

[Punchshroom]

If I spent 3 turns laying spikes and they just throw in a spinner I would much rather protean to a ghost type to stop the rapid spin then have to set up all the layers of spikes again and do some damage rather than switching to a ghost type, which would take even longer to get spikes back up. Then again against someone using defog the point would be moot.

However with just 8 more Sp.Atk, greninja is not exactly going to be an impressive damager, so having spikes, water shuriken and shadow sneak with one more slot does not make me sweat about a sub-par damagers coverage, especially if he can get in some easy priority kills.

Greninja is not the type of Pokemon to feasibly lay down 3 layers of Spikes, the most realistic case scenario is one or two layers (and this is assuming against a blind Electric-attack). You're essentially trying to use Greninja as some sort of ghetto Froslass, except Greninja actually has the tools to outsped and hammer nearly every spinblocker out there.

The reason people favor special Greninja is because it makes full use of Protean's benefits: hitting everything hard with high BP moves and good coverage, while also changing its typing around to cover its current weaknesses. Your Greninja has noting but moves hovering around the 40-70 base range and lackluster coverage, making it achingly weak as a result and struggling to KO anything.

 

[Sir Lemongrab]

Well of course Night Slash is better for getting KOs, it's nearly twice as powerful as Shadow Sneak. But if you'd been paying attention to my last few posts you'd see that I maintain that priority on Greninja is a niche option at best for priority type changing. In this regard, Shadow Sneak is absolutely better than Night Slash, because that +2/+2 Blaziken just fell on its ass with HJK and put it in KO range for, I don't know, Water Shuriken.

All that being said, a physical Greninja is a wasted Greninja. His special movepool is so fucking good that going physical (not just running U-turn, I mean dedicated physical moveset with physical investment) is like going the minimum speed on the Autobahn in a Ferrari. You can do what you want, you're not hurting anyone, but come on, be smart about this.

O-
Okay now. Nobody was saying that you're wrong. I was simply stating my personal opinion on what I felt was more useful for Greninja if you're specifically going for kills off the bat. And, like I said, priority type changing is also a niche.

 

[Kyrone619]

Greninja is not the type of Pokemon to feasibly lay down 3 layers of Spikes, the most realistic case scenario is one or two layers (and this is assuming against a blind Electric-attack). You're essentially trying to use Greninja as some sort of ghetto Froslass, except Greninja actually has the tools to outsped and hammer nearly every spinblocker out there.

The reason people favor special Greninja is because it makes full use of Protean's benefits: hitting everything hard with high BP moves and good coverage, while also changing its typing around to cover its current weaknesses. Your Greninja has noting but moves hovering around the 40-70 base range and lackluster coverage, making it achingly weak as a result and struggling to KO anything.

cannot argue too much with that.

However the problem then is, there would not be much point running him as a hazard user anyway as he is just plain inferior to the alternatives.

 

[CarnivorouSwarm]

I definitely think we're right in thinking that support sets are bad on Greninja because of his offensive prowess and lack of defenses.

BUT, I know this was already asked, and people seemed to be pretty adamant about a physical set always being inferior, BUT, is a physical set really totally worthless in comparison to the special set? I think it does a few things.

PROS:
1. Gives added strength to U-Turn, letting Greninja GTFO should a problem arise.
2. Slightly less predictable than a special set. Because of the movepool special set, everyone expects special attacker Greninja and may very well just bring in a special wall immediately given his ability to STAB any type.
3. Gives the potential for fighting gem/PUP with EV investment, and the buff from PUP might make up for the difference in the 95/103 stats. (Calcs here?)

CONS:
1. Yes, his physical movepool is not his special movepool.
2. Yes, his Spat hits harder than his Atk without needing a buff like PUP.
And I'd imagine there are others.