Pokémon Zygarde

[alexwolf]

Added to the OP the sets of Zygarde from the c&c subforum so that you guys have some solid basis to start discussing. Cleared up the thread as well, and please make questions that could be answered with 1-2 lines in the simple question simple answer thread from now on. Also, stop discussing about what moves Zygarde might get, what stats his possible stronger forme will have, or how he will fare in Ubers; this thread is for discussing Zygarde's viability in OU.

 

[ss234]

Ye so zygarde is actually p good, that bulk + dd + that typing makes zygarde one scary poke. Even with the new fairy type, there isn't rlly much that can wall zygarde-togekiss and skarmory are the only real counters to dd zygarde, while coil only rlly fears kiss again. Thanks to dd its p difficult to check as well-unlike chomper you can't rely on stuff like mega gengy or noivern to revenge kill, obviously stuff like mamo ice shard still works but even then: 394 Atk vs 278 Def & 383 HP (160 Base Power): 316 - 376 (82.51% - 97.39%). Unlike most other dragons it doesn't hit quite as hard, but priority espeed helps here as you can eq smthing and then espeed if it doesn't quite kill, which works very nicely against scarfers. One mon I've had success with alongside zygarde is shadow ball aegislash. Aegi lures in things like gliscor / hippo and does a very large amount with shadow ball, making it much easier for zygarde to sweep. Aegi and zygarde also have very good synergy defensively, what with aegislash nuking fairy types i.e. togekiss and zygarde handling stuff like blaziken and exca(unboosted ofc). So yeah zygarde is manly and ppl should use it more!!!

 

[adu]

People who say its defenses are overrated, think about it.
Jellicent was considered one of the premier special walls of BW OU. And guess what? It has a HP of 100 and a Special Defense of 105, and a defense of just 70! Yes, it had brilliant typing and Will-O-Wisp etc but the fact of the matter is, it has far lower raw stats than Zygarde.
Now I know you can't compare the two, but Jellicent is a good example of how raw stats don't determine viability.
Zygarde may have a low base stat total (Legendary standards lawl) but Coil and Dragon Dance definitely make up for it as well as incredible (unresisted?) STAB. So will it be OU? Yes, because it has a good enough attack (as good as Kingdra's, who is considered a beast) fantastic HP (higher than Jellicent, Ferrothorn and like a whole load of things) incredible defense and good special defense (it's not hopelessly bad) and even good enough speed to top it all off.

So yeah, it won't be Ubers, sure, but that doesn't make it Kyuremly bad.

 

[Piccolo289]

I think that Zygarde can have a niche in vgc with lands wrath

 

[MikeDawg]

I'm telling y'all, coil with espeed/edgequake adamant 252 hp/252 att is the way to go.

Now I'mma go back to alt #6 laddering because the first five are too hopelessly high up to find a match because of all the coil sweeping

 

[Golemman]

First of all, kudos to Yamborski. Seemed like a lot of people dissing Zygarde and you had solid arguements. Before all of your attackers attack me, I'm not insulting you guys you can have your opinions, but please don't come to a thread discussing a pokemons viability in ou and create giant arguements about how it stinks. If you want, just say you believe it will be uu for ...reasons and be on with it.

I think Zygarde will be ou for its great merits as a boosting sweeper. Both options seem very viable, coil for bulky offense and dd for flat out offense. The damage and speed calcs seem to point to dd being the superior option, needing one or two boosts to KO nearly the entire metagame. Skarmory as always will be super common, so precautions must be taken before starting up a sweep. Magnezone is one of its best partners, as it rids him of steels particularly skarm. Galvantula is another as it can negate all grounded scarfers' boosts wih sticky web to prevent revenge killing at +1. Galv also has powerful special coverage to beat skarm hippowdon and landoT with thunder energy ball and hp ice (someone should calc that though, idk if any are OHKOes after SR).

 

[Siggu]

What I don't like of Zygarde is its physical Dragon-type move availability. It literally learns no other moves than Outrage and Dragon Tail. No Dragon Claw (Well, it's justified in that it does not have arms), not even Dragon Rush (Which would work with Coil, at least as an alternative to Dragon Tail), so no 'intermediate Dragon move' Zygarde can use in its boosting sets

Other than that, it's a rather unique Dragon, thanks to Coil. While it shares its Dragon/Ground typing with Garchomp and its 'bulky booster' style with Dragonite, it still manages to be different from the rest

 

[Golemman]

My 200 ev adamant +1 Zyagarde OHKOd a Sylveon with EQ. Don't know what it's spread was. No hazards or previous damage. Idk if that helps at all but shows he can take out some of his checks.

 

[myw]

I reeeeaally doubt this thing will end up in UU, considering it's unreasonable bulk and acceptable attack stat. That bulk allows for many, many switch ins.

I could be wrong of course, given how early in the meta is. But at least for now, it's making dealing with the top two pokemon easy.

Aegislash - Zygarde can easily set up on an Aegislash (put them in a position where another EQ will kill them, DDance on the shield or switch or desperate Shadow Sneak) and it has the bulk to just take the hits.
Talonflame - Wins the one on one. You can prrrrobably switch Zygarde in on him too, and even win because ExSpeed, but I have not tried it.

Definitely loses to Greninja, though. I've found that Vaporeon is a great teammate though, since she beats Greninja almost 100% of the time (Unless you run some bizarre physical only set, but then you wouldn't go in on Zygarde anyway)

Plus, it has a lot of strong one on ones with older pokemon, I find. I'm going off the general sets though, so I may be discounting the outliers.


I understand the comparisons to Garchomp, but really the extra bulk means a lot, giving it a slight bit more leeway once the game gets to the point where not everything is beautifully calculated 1-2hit KOs.

 

[Chou Toshio]

People who say its defenses are overrated, think about it.
Jellicent was considered one of the premier special walls of BW OU. And guess what? It has a HP of 100 and a Special Defense of 105, and a defense of just 70! Yes, it had brilliant typing and Will-O-Wisp etc but the fact of the matter is, it has far lower raw stats than Zygarde.
Now I know you can't compare the two, but Jellicent is a good example of how raw stats don't determine viability.
Zygarde may have a low base stat total (Legendary standards lawl) but Coil and Dragon Dance definitely make up for it as well as incredible (unresisted?) STAB. So will it be OU? Yes, because it has a good enough attack (as good as Kingdra's, who is considered a beast) fantastic HP (higher than Jellicent, Ferrothorn and like a whole load of things) incredible defense and good special defense (it's not hopelessly bad) and even good enough speed to top it all off.

So yeah, it won't be Ubers, sure, but that doesn't make it Kyuremly bad.

Jellicent has a UNIQUE typing. Zygarde's typing is... Garchomp... Plus both of these Pokemon have negligible abilities (if anything, Garchomp's ability is better...). The problem for Zygarde is that while it's got "good stats", there's an almost identical Pokemon with basically BETTER stats.

Why are Garchomp's stats better?

first let's talk about offense. 130 ATK is great-- it's basically just good enough to do whatever you want with it; it can wall break, sweep, or revenge. If you have 130, no one is worried about your offensive abilities. 100 is a different story.

100 can be really good or really bad, but it's completely dependent on all the factors of the metagame. Starmie has 100 Sp.A, but 100 Sp.A is incredibly good on a special attacking water type-- Ice Beam + Surf/Hydro Pump, or Thunderbolt + Surf/Hydro Pump is powerful, reliable, and most importantly, VERY difficult for major threats in the metagame to handle. 100-105 is a REALLY good special attacking stat for an offensive Water-type like Starmie, Rotom-W, or Greninja. If you're like Victini and have a 180 base power STAB move that can be boosted in sun-- well, yeah then, 100 ATK is more than enough. Also, when you have DOUBLE speed in Rain like Kingdra (which is huge), plus you can spam those same powerful special Water attacks, a lower special attacking stat isn't a big deal-- especially when you have a RAIN boost.

Zygarde is in a totally different boat, and we KNOW this because of another Dragon-Ground relative-- Flygon, who also has 100 ATK. Through the last 2 gens, Flygon has proved itself to be "just too weak" in almost every metagame it's been in (despite having Outrage and EQ). It is weak to the point that "....as disappointing as a Flygon's Outrage" actually became a common saying in our community 4th gen. In 4th gen OU and 5th gen UU, Flygon was a good poke because of its good typing and resilience to hazards, but in both metas (yes, even in last gen's UU)-- that 100 ATK always held it back from being a truly top-tier threat. 100 ATK is not good enough for Dragon/Ground coverage-- even with +1 boosts from Coil or DD.

The big difference between Starmie and Flygon (and therefore Starmie and Zygarde), despite having the same 100 base offensive stat, is simply this-- breakdown of the metagame. Surf / Ice Beam / Thunderbolt coming off 100 SpA is a lot scarier than Outrage/EQ coming off 100 ATK just because the former is a lot harder to deal with using OU threats. Outrage coming off 100 ATK is just weak enough that even Pokemon like Slowbro and Suicune don't really care about it. When we're talking about a meta with threats like Landorus-T, Skarmory, and Azumarril-- damn, you're REALLY up a creek without a paddle.

As for bulk, yes Zygarde has tremendous bulk, but it doesn't have the typing or support tools to be a good wall. It only has offensive tools.

So, going offensive, the natural route is to use that bulk to set up for a sweep, and it has the tools for that (Coil and DD). Unfortunately, most of its main competitors ALSO have great set up tools, and great bulk. Garchomp is no Zygarde, but it IS still one of the statistically BULKIEST Pokemon in the tier. Garchomp's 108 / 95 / 85 makes it statistically bulker than Heatran, and on par or better than Jirachi/Celebi/etc. Zygarde's a lot bulkier yes, but they're still both going to be 1-2HKO'd by Ice and Dragon attacks. There's also Dragonite to consider. Both of these Pokemon have offensives that are a lot scarier-- that 100 ATK is just too weak.

Zygarde's only real saving grace is that this meta is so chock full of Priority, and really powerful priority... Talonflame's Brave Bird, Aegislash's Shadow Sneak, Lucario's Extremespeed/Bullet Punch, Kanghaskan and Mawhile's Suckerpunches, Azumarril's Aqua Jet, and there's still Scizor, Breloom, and Dragonite to account for as well. When it comes to these prioirty attacks, the difference between Zygarde's bulk and Garchomp's bulk is huge-- especially if we're talking about Coil. Will it be enough? I doubt it. This is a metagame where even Garchomp isn't really a stand out, and Dragon / Ground coverage has never been worse than it is now.

 

[jas61292]

I think you are really selling Zygarde short here by comparing with Garchomp. Yes, they share the same type. But that is it. Period. Garchomp does not have better stats. Garchomp has different stats. Sure, if you try and play like Garchomp with Zygarde, you won't be successful. But if you try and play Salamence like Dragonite you won't be successful either, and those two are probably MORE similar than Zygarde and Garchomp. Yes, Garchomp has 130 Atk. That's wonderful. But we are not talking about Garchomp here. You don't write off Pokemon because one guy with the same type has a higher stat. Honestly, my biggest problem with arguments against Zygarde like this are that there are a ton of comparisons of stats, and statistical bulk and this number and that number. But when it comes to battles, those are really irrelevant.

You need to play a pokemon to its advantages, not the advantages of other Pokemon of its type, and Zygarde's advantages are its bulk and its movepool. Sure, its movepool is offensive, not supportive, but that doesn't suddenly makes its bulk useless or anything. And to say that its type is not good defensively... are you kidding me? Zygard can come in and set up with impunity on nearly half of all physical Pokemon in the entire game, if not more. Its type is an absolute blessing for it, at least the way this early metagame is shaping up.

To me, I think the problem is that people are trying to think of Zygarde as fitting into a role that Dragons are known for, when it simply does not. Yes, it can Dragon Dance, but frankly, I don't think its even that good at that. Coil is what Zygarde can do that no other Dragon can do, and to use it properly in this role, you have to play it like no other dragon plays. Hell, in my opinion, Zygarde is at its best when it is not even using a Dragon move, which in the past would be blasphemous for any Dragon. But Zygarde is not a traditional Dragon, and trying to play it like one, or even compare it to one is really not a fair analysis of what it can do.

I won't debate that Dragon/Ground coverage is not what it used to be (though seriously people, don't use Dragon. Coil EdgeQuake is so much better), and that is somewhat unfortunate for Zygarde. But I'll just say this: I've used both Garchomp and Zygarde plenty in this new meta, and yes, neither is an amazing standout. However, the fact is the downsides of the type in the current meta hurt Garchomp way more than Zygarde. If anything, Zygarde not being a standout should be a bad omen for Garchomp, not vice versa, as Garchomp can't even take advantage of some of the best parts of the typing like Zygarde can.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I think you are really selling Zygarde short here by comparing with Garchomp. Yes, they share the same type. But that is it. Period. Garchomp does not have better stats. Garchomp has different stats. Sure, if you try and play like Garchomp with Zygarde, you won't be successful. But if you try and play Salamence like Dragonite you won't be successful either, and those two are probably MORE similar than Zygarde and Garchomp. Yes, Garchomp has 130 Atk. That's wonderful. But we are not talking about Garchomp here. You don't write off Pokemon because one guy with the same type has a higher stat. Honestly, my biggest problem with arguments against Zygarde like this are that there are a ton of comparisons of stats, and statistical bulk and this number and that number. But when it comes to battles, those are really irrelevant.

Waiting for the substance that contains a compelling argument. What makes this thing good?
And of course stats make a big difference between two pokes of similar typing with almost negligible abilities. Zygarde doesn't have any major advantage movepool wise either.

You need to play a pokemon to its advantages, not the advantages of other Pokemon of its type, and Zygarde's advantages are its bulk and its movepool. Sure, its movepool is offensive, not supportive, but that doesn't suddenly makes its bulk useless or anything. And to say that its type is not good defensively... are you kidding me? Zygard can come in and set up with impunity on nearly half of all physical Pokemon in the entire game, if not more. Its type is an absolute blessing for it, at least the way this early metagame is shaping up.

Ok, so there it is, but it's a little different from what I was getting at. The point I was making is that Dragon/Ground is one of those typings (like Dragon/Water and Ice/Ground) that has good offensive synergy, with few weaknesses and few resistances. It's ideal for a set up sweeper-- but poor for a defensive mon. My point was about it being a poor defensive typing as a defensive mon. Dragon / Ground is not a typing you want for a wall, and you'll notice that part of my post says-- doesn't have the typing or movepool to be a wall. So your point isn't even discounting mine.

Your point is that Zygarde's typing and movepool is suited to be a bulky set up sweeper-- which is true. I posted a number of reasons why it suffers in that role in OU-- the fact that it doesn't hit hard enough at +1 is a big factor. The fact that it's not fast enough to avoid powerful special hits is another. The fact that its weaknesses, though few, are very common in OU, and as one of OU's slower dragons, it's even more vulnerable. The fact that Dragon / Ground has lost a lot of viability in this set up sweeper role.

I will admit, I haven't used Zygarde or Garchomp in the current meta, so I don't have experience to compare directly-- and you can't really fault me for it because, as you said, neither is really a stand out (realistically, neither is very good...) in this current metagame.

I DID however, in my post, site some reasons why I think the current meta would be a lot kinder to Zygarde than Garchomp-- the fact that physical priority IS the metagame, and makes it a lot harder for Garchomp to function in a set up sweeper role; it's bulk isn't "extreme" enough, and it's Speed means jack when everything is using priority anyway. However, as we both know that doesn't mean that Zygarde is particularly good, and I don't really care about an argument into "which is comparatively worse."

No one knows what the future will hold for tiering, and we're trying to avoid discussion on bans, however-- I will say that a metagame that allows for Zygarde to be a "major threat" would probably also be a metagame that makes garchomp "an even more major threat." In other words, if the metagame shifts to be truly kind to Zygarde, than it's likely we're talking about a metagame where Dragon / Ground can be a major offensive threat and where priority and Speed boosts aren't constantly stomping any chance of successful traditional set up sweeps-- in which case, Garchomp will likely be the more threatening mon.

As it stands, Zygarde might be the better set up sweeper in this meta, but I still think I'd rather bring a CB Garchomp with me in this meta than either as a set up sweeper.

 

[Azure30]

If only this thing had some form of reliable recovery, it would have made a niche as an extremely good parashuffler with Glare + Dtail. Too bad Dragonite does it better even if its using twave. I think thats why people are getting the feeling that this thing will drop out of OU - Dragonite and Garchomp just do it better than this guy.

 

[jas61292]

I DID however, in my post, site some reasons why I think the current meta would be a lot kinder to Zygarde than Garchomp-- the fact that physical priority IS the metagame, and makes it a lot harder for Garchomp to function in a set up sweeper role; it's bulk isn't "extreme" enough, and it's Speed means jack when everything is using priority anyway. However, as we both know that doesn't mean that Zygarde is particularly good, and I don't really care about an argument into "which is comparatively worse."

No one knows what the future will hold for tiering, and we're trying to avoid discussion on bans, however-- I will say that a metagame that allows for Zygarde to be a "major threat" would probably also be a metagame that makes garchomp "an even more major threat." In other words, if the metagame shifts to be truly kind to Zygarde, than it's likely we're talking about a metagame where Dragon / Ground can be a major offensive threat and where priority and Speed boosts aren't constantly stomping any chance of successful traditional set up sweeps-- in which case, Garchomp will likely be the more threatening mon.

The one problem I have with this is that you talk about "the fact that physical priority IS the metagame" but then completely disregard the fact that Zygarde has access to the best priority move in the game. Zygarde doesn't just tank priority hits, it can outspeed them and net kills without even being hit in the first place. That is why a coil set is so dangerous on Zygarde, and why what it can do is not comparable to what Garchomp can do in the least. Garchomp can set up all the Sword Dances it wants (or use a band or scarf or whatever), but the minute Mamoswine comes in, it has to bail. Its fun is over. While obviously that is the most extreme example, as you admitted, powerful priority is everywhere. CB Scizor for example does ~50% to offensive Garchomps. That doesn't make Garchomp useless or anything, but its obviously hampering.

Zygarde, on the other hand, as you yourself were getting at, frankly does not give much of a shit about priority. While priority users can come in after Garchomp gets a kill or something and prio the crap out of it, if Zygarde had but one turn to set up, the same cannot be said. At +1 Def, 252/0 Zyg is rarely even 2HKOd by LO Mamo Ice Shard. Not even Icicle Crash is guaranteed to KO. Scizor, on the other hand, becomes complete setup bait for it. So yeah, in a metagame dominated by priority, Zygarde is really not giving much of a shit about it.

But, of course, Zygarde does not have massive speed. Faster things can beat it without needing priority. And I'm not going to try and argue that Zygarde has the power to bust through these things with ESpeed. HOWEVER, it does have ESpeed, AND it has the bulk to get the fuck out when something faster comes in and be able to easily just set up again later in the battle. It can come in and out repeatedly without caring much about residual damage, unlike many of the things that threaten it (BTW, while not abusing it, per se, Zyg does really like Sand for this reason). This really compliments ESpeed, which lets it simply beat things that would otherwise threaten it. It might not be able to do it right off the bat, but it doesn't take too much to let it be set up to the point where it doesn't care about a large portion of the tier.

Now I'm not going to say that Zygarde is one of the most dangerous Pokemon in the metagame. I do think it is quite good, but not necessarily one of the top Pokemon out there. I just think that you are restricting yourself by comparing it with Garchomp where such comparisons really serve no purpose. The two share nothing be a type and can't really fit in the same roles. Maybe a metagame very advantageous to Zygarde would also be advantageous to Garchomp, but if that was the case they would still both be common since they fit different roles on teams and would not be stealing the use from each other.

 

[Siggu]

You are a Smogon mod. I would have thought you of all people would know better then to compare Zygarde to Garchomp. The only thing they have in common is typing.

Garchomp has more sheer wall breaking power and moveset diversity.
Zygarde has far better sweeping ability alongside Extremespeed priority utility.
Flygon is garbage.

Zygarde does not have better sweeping potential than Garchomp. It may be better as a bulky sweeper (Higher defenses + Coil) and it may be the only Dragon/Ground that learns Dragon Dance, but that does not make it a better sweeper. Garchomp has better sweeping ability from the get-go while Zygarde needs to (And can) take its time to get to similar levels, so they are not comparable

It needs to concentrate on its differences (Tangrowth-level physical bulk while still having good special bulk, only Dragon with Coil, only Dragon/Ground with Dragon Dance and Extremespeed) because then one would be better off using Garchomp

 

[Yamborski]

Zygarde does not have better sweeping potential than Garchomp. It may be better as a bulky sweeper (Higher defenses + Coil) and it may be the only Dragon/Ground that learns Dragon Dance, but that does not make it a better sweeper. Garchomp has better sweeping ability from the get-go while Zygarde needs to (And can) take its time to get to similar levels, so they are not comparable

It needs to concentrate on its differences (Tangrowth-level physical bulk while still having good special bulk, only Dragon with Coil, only Dragon/Ground with Dragon Dance and Extremespeed) because then one would be better off using Garchomp

What will you be sweeping with 102 base speed. A stall team? 102 isn't as godly as it was in gen 4.

 

[myw]

Zygarde does not have better sweeping potential than Garchomp. It may be better as a bulky sweeper (Higher defenses + Coil) and it may be the only Dragon/Ground that learns Dragon Dance, but that does not make it a better sweeper. Garchomp has better sweeping ability from the get-go while Zygarde needs to (And can) take its time to get to similar levels, so they are not comparable

It needs to concentrate on its differences (Tangrowth-level physical bulk while still having good special bulk, only Dragon with Coil, only Dragon/Ground with Dragon Dance and Extremespeed) because then one would be better off using Garchomp

"Only Dragon/Ground with Dragon Dance and Extremespeed" is basically a better sweeper than anything without DD.

 

[Golemman]

While priority users can come in after Garchomp gets a kill or something and prio the crap out of it, if Zygarde had but one turn to set up, the same cannot be said. At +1 Def, 252/0 Zyg is rarely even 2HKOd by LO Mamo Ice Shard. Not even Icicle Crash is guaranteed to KO. Scizor, on the other hand, becomes complete setup bait for it.

As setup bait priority users, include Aegislash whose shadow sneak does about 18% to a 104 HP evd Zygarde.

 

[PokemonMasterDebater]

It needs to concentrate on its differences (Tangrowth-level physical bulk while still having good special bulk, only Dragon with Coil, only Dragon/Ground with Dragon Dance and Extremespeed) because then one would be better off using Garchomp

Much like how Scizor needs to focus on its differences from Genesect. Or how Delphox needs to focus on its differences from Victini. Or how Hitmonlee needs to focus on its differences from Conkelderr.

See a patern here? All these are pairs of offensive pokemon that share the same typing, yet play absolutly nothing alike due to differences to their stats, movepools and abilities. These don't really compete with eachother for the same spots on a team. There truly is no comparison between them.

 

[Impy]

If you want a dragon that can use extremespeed, use Dragonite. If you want a dragon/ground type that can set up and sweep, use Garchomp. Coil is interesting, but tit for tat both Dragonite and Garchomp are faster and do a hell of a lot more damage, and much faster than Zygarde; if Zygarde wants to do comparable amounts of damage, it needs to use coil twice, whereas Garchomp and Dragonite can wreck teams with one swords dance or dragon dance, respectively. The defensive orientation is almost good-looking until you realize that dragon/ground is a garbage defensive typing.

Let's face it, Zygarde is just completely outclassed at everything it does, and its one gimmick, coil and dragon tail, is no longer as good as it once was with fairies that resist it and exploit its special defense. Togekiss destroys this thing with little effort.

I don't know, maybe I'm using it wrong (used the dragon dance set with little luck) but it seems to be just...meh. Too good for lower tiers, but it will never make waves in standard.

Of course, this is all before it gets some batshit insane buff in the next game and becomes another ubers mainstay the way Kyurem-W did, but that's not relevant yet.

 

[PokemonMasterDebater]

If you want a dragon that can use extremespeed, use Dragonite. If you want a dragon/ground type that can set up and sweep, use Garchomp.

Who is getting swept by SD 'Chomp? It seems like it wouldn't be bulky enough or fast enough to sweep anything other than a unprepared stall team.

Coil is interesting, but tit for tat both Dragonite and Garchomp are faster and do a hell of a lot more damage, and much faster than Zygarde;

If speed is important, DD Zygarde is faster than both of them after a boost. Besides, Coil is used for the extra survivabilty from the defense boosts, and extra relyablity of Stone Edge from accuracy boosts.

The defensive orientation is almost good-looking until you realize that dragon/ground is a garbage defensive typing.

That's quite the overstatement. Being resistant to rocks, and immune to electric is a great thing for Zygade, as it lets him switch in and out far more freely than Dragonite. Being able to switch into T-waves without waisting its Lum is nice too. It wouldn't be good for a wall, but it isn't a wall.

Let's face it, Zygarde is just completely outclassed at everything it does, and its one gimmick, coil and dragon tail, is no longer as good as it once was with fairies that resist it and exploit its special defense. Togekiss destroys this thing with little effort.

That is why everyone who is using it effectily is saying, "Don't use Outrage, Stone Edge is way better"
Also, Dnite has a serious case of 4MSS now. It wants to be able to run Fire Punch, Earthquake, Thunder Punch, Extreme Speed, Dragon Dance, Dragon STAB, and maybe Roost, in order to beat Skarm, Heatran, Mamo, Togekiss, Ferrothorn, and Forretress. Zygarde is content with EdgeQuake, ESpeed, and boosting move of choice. Not sure if that will make much of a difference, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

I don't know, maybe I'm using it wrong (used the dragon dance set with little luck) but it seems to be just...meh. Too good for lower tiers, but it will never make waves in standard.

I have a feeling Coil will give it enough of a niche to stay OU.

 

[Lord Jesseus]

Let's face it, Zygarde is just completely outclassed at everything it does, and its one gimmick, coil and dragon tail, is no longer as good as it once was with fairies that resist it and exploit its special defense. Togekiss destroys this thing with little effort.

Again, this is why we advocate Stone Edge over Dragon Tail. It'll stop missing after a Coil and hits Togekiss pretty hard.
Zygarde, depending on what set Togekiss runs, can outspeed and either OHKO with Stealth Rocks or Tank a hit and 2HKO.

+1 252 Atk (custom) Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 284-336 (75.93 - 89.83%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk (custom) Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Togekiss: 224-264 (59.89 - 70.58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Togekiss (Move 1) vs. 122 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 284-336 (73.38 - 86.82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Togekiss (Move 1) vs. 122 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 312-368 (80.62 - 95.09%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

(Move 1 is Dragon 80, and I made Togekiss Dragon - this simulates Dazzling Gleam. Custom is obviously just Zygarde. HP seems random, and kind of is, see below; realisitcally you'd probably be running more?)

So it can OHKO Max HP Offensive builds, and survive against even the strongest Defensive Builds (for which I'm assuming Leftovers). The only issue is speed. It's probably not optimal, but Jolly with 136 EVs outspeeds all Togekiss without a boost (since I'm assuming Coil, not DD, for this example). A build like 120 HP/252 Atk/136 Spe should work if Togekiss is really troubling you (which is the build I've used in the calcs) but may not be optimal in the grand scheme of things. And off course, it is still dicey and depends highly on what Togekiss is actually running these days. If they're tending towards slower, bulkier builds you can probably go adamant and drop some speed EVs for HP. Anything with a Life Orb that you don't kill first absolutely kills you.

The point is though, Zygarde does stand a fair chance against Togekiss. Togekiss is still a good check, but it doesn't destroy it with "little effort"; it's kind of a toss up depending on their respective builds.

 

[Chou Toshio]

The one problem I have with this is that you talk about "the fact that physical priority IS the metagame" but then completely disregard the fact that Zygarde has access to the best priority move in the game. Zygarde doesn't just tank priority hits, it can outspeed them and net kills without even being hit in the first place. That is why a coil set is so dangerous on Zygarde, and why what it can do is not comparable to what Garchomp can do in the least. Garchomp can set up all the Sword Dances it wants (or use a band or scarf or whatever), but the minute Mamoswine comes in, it has to bail. Its fun is over. While obviously that is the most extreme example, as you admitted, powerful priority is everywhere. CB Scizor for example does ~50% to offensive Garchomps. That doesn't make Garchomp useless or anything, but its obviously hampering.

Zygarde, on the other hand, as you yourself were getting at, frankly does not give much of a shit about priority. While priority users can come in after Garchomp gets a kill or something and prio the crap out of it, if Zygarde had but one turn to set up, the same cannot be said. At +1 Def, 252/0 Zyg is rarely even 2HKOd by LO Mamo Ice Shard. Not even Icicle Crash is guaranteed to KO. Scizor, on the other hand, becomes complete setup bait for it. So yeah, in a metagame dominated by priority, Zygarde is really not giving much of a shit about it.

Dude, who are you arguing with-- I basically agreed that Zygarde looks better in this meta as a setup sweeper than Garchomp; and I even said because of priority. I don't get what you're arguing with when we agree on this point.

But, of course, Zygarde does not have massive speed. Faster things can beat it without needing priority. And I'm not going to try and argue that Zygarde has the power to bust through these things with ESpeed. HOWEVER, it does have ESpeed, AND it has the bulk to get the fuck out when something faster comes in and be able to easily just set up again later in the battle. It can come in and out repeatedly without caring much about residual damage, unlike many of the things that threaten it (BTW, while not abusing it, per se, Zyg does really like Sand for this reason). This really compliments ESpeed, which lets it simply beat things that would otherwise threaten it. It might not be able to do it right off the bat, but it doesn't take too much to let it be set up to the point where it doesn't care about a large portion of the tier.

Now I'm not going to say that Zygarde is one of the most dangerous Pokemon in the metagame. I do think it is quite good, but not necessarily one of the top Pokemon out there. I just think that you are restricting yourself by comparing it with Garchomp where such comparisons really serve no purpose. The two share nothing be a type and can't really fit in the same roles. Maybe a metagame very advantageous to Zygarde would also be advantageous to Garchomp, but if that was the case they would still both be common since they fit different roles on teams and would not be stealing the use from each other.

And I'd agree with your assessment of Zygarde as a mediocre Poke that can still somewhat be threatening; it has an easier time sweeping than Garchomp in this meta because it can easily shake off priority, and while a +1 Extreme Speed is pitifully weak, in an end game where it could get to +2 or more, it could do some damage on a weakened team.

I'd disagree that Ground/Dragon is a type that can switch in and out easily-- few resistances, hit by Spikes, and also threatened by Burn and Poison, plus no recovery outside leftovers. It's a bit above average in its ability to switch in and out just because of SR resist, sand / t-wave immune, but it's no Flygon, or even Skarmory in terms of resilience to passive damage/status.

The metagame isn't also brimming with Pokemon it can set up on, especially if it's investing in Speed.

Sharing a typing is already sharing a lot, especially when neither of you have really unique abilities, and are both bulky offensive Pokemon with Speed hovering around 100. That's already more than enough to need to compare.


No one can really speculate on a hypothetical metagame that doesn't exist but-- I'll just say that if Zygarde existed in BW, it would most likely be UU, and the main reasons would be-- Garchomp does everything better, 100 is too weak, 95 is too slow, it can be taken out too easily by faster Ice/Dragon attacks. Right now the metagame is packed full of ridiculously powerful priority that pretty much stomp on Garchomp's chances to really sweep (and also makes non-priority Speed tiers SO irrelevant compared to previous gens, so 95 v. 102 means nothing lol). That's why Zygarde fares much better as a sweeper.

It's also a metagame where everything is so stupidly overpowered that Zygarde really can't be seen as good. If though-- the bans fall such that a metagame more like BW or DPP arises, Garchomp will clearly be the better Pokemon.

 

[Impy]

I'll go with "not using it right" then, because in the few times I did it was very unsatisfying.

 

[Yamborski]

The metagame isn't also brimming with Pokemon it can set up on, especially if it's investing in Speed.

Serious question. Have you extensively used Zygarde or are you just talking out of your butt and completely theorymoning? I've been in the top 10 of both PS and PO so while neither ladder is impressive I can at least talk from experience when I say this thing can set up EASILY.

It only requires 152 Speed EVs with a neutral nature to outpace 130s at +1 and everything relevant at +2 (and believe me it reaches +2 frequently). That leaves 104 HP EVs left, enough to allow you to survive Scarf Garchomp Outrage (just an example of its bulk, not a hit I actually suggest taking). 252 Attack Adamant gives it 91% the power of Jolly Garchomp. Not spectacular but easily capable of sweeping at +1 and enough to OHKO Talonflame with Extremespeed at +1 with rocks (or you can just tank the Brave Bird / Acrobatics and DD again).

STAB Draco Meteor
STAB Outrage
LO Ice Beam

These are the three moves that can OHKO Zygarde. Zygarde can, with few exceptions, tank a hit from everything else. It has a LOT of bulk, more than even Hippowdon. It sets up easily on pretty much anything that doesn't have those moves. It doesn't have the sheer power to OHKO everything at +1 but it can do so late game. Its real strength is waiting until the opponent lacks those three moves or at least until their users are low on HP enough that Zygarde can just wipe them out. With them gone Zygarde can easily reach +2 or more allowing it to steamroll anything.

Stop comparing it to Garchomp. Yes it is a worse Garchomp but Garchomp is also a worse Zygarde. It only shares Garchomp's typing. Blissey isn't bad because it can't sweep as well as Tauros. Zygarde GETS DRAGON DANCE. It gets the best setup move in the game with the sheer bulk required to use it alongside the best offensive typing you could wish for. Zygarde walks all over teams late game. Garchomp can not do this.