Pokémon Gardevoir

[Shrilakkigan]

While I can't argue those numbers, Gardevoir doesn't really want to fully invest into attack when Double-Edge is her only viable physical move. Sure, she has Giga-Impact, Facade, and Return as well, but those are situational at best, and they would all be Fairy-type anyway. No, she wants speed and whatever bulk she can get, which is something that Double-Edge impacts, and she wants to support her main sweeping moves. When you think of it like that, and then compare fully invested Psyshock to minimally invested Double-Edge, you get:

252+ SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 312-367 (43.6 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 265-313 (37.1 - 43.8%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 228-268 (32.3 - 38%) -- 96.3% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 195-229 (27.6 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

It's a matter of Want vs Need, where she wants to include a fully physical move, but needs to support her main cast of Hyper Voice/Moon Blast, Focus Blast, Shadow Ball, Thunderbolt, Psychic, or whatever else you want her to have. Psyshock lets her stack the special and physical investments together to let her improve her speed or bulk, and it receives whatever Calm Mind boosts that may come, whereas any physical boosts will have to be passed in.

That's not to say that Double-Edge is necessarily a bad idea, but it's a situational move itself. The first real advantage that Double-Edge has over Psyshock is in Umbreon, who has the highest Special Defense of a Dark-type aside from Mega Gyarados, and is still 2HKO'd by a fully invested Hyper Voice. As for Gyarados, I'm not really sure what Mold Breaker does to Pixilate, but she shouldn't be staying in against it for too long anyway.

Aside from that, Double-Edge would only really be viable on Showdown, because she learns it from a FRLG tutor, and trying to breed a 5 IV ralts in BW2 is a hellish experience; I don't particularly care to try to breed something comparatively viable in the Emerald era, when Psyshock can be put on a nigh perfect ralts after a few hours in XY. In reality, this is likely a very minor point, what with Showdown being available and all, but it can still be troublesome for breeders.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Here, look, it can make it through the pink blobs a whole lot easier, for instance, let's set the playing field to 0/0+ on both sides:
0 Atk Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blissey: 616-726 (94.6 - 111.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blissey: 561-661 (86.1 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Chansey: 501-589 (78.1 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Chansey: 456-537 (71.1 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Then, let's set the blobs to full:
0 Atk Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 265-313 (37.1 - 43.8%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 243-286 (34 - 40%) -- 33.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 195-229 (27.6 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 Atk Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 195-229 (27.6 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 178-210 (25.2 - 29.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Then, let's invest Gardevoir:
252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 279-328 (39.6 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 228-268 (32.3 - 38%) -- 96.3% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 381-448 (53.3 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 312-367 (43.6 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Just fyi, at 252-, Gardevoir does the exact same damage with Double-Edge as Psyshock does at 252+. I'm not saying Double-Edge is great, but it has the merit of being more reliable against blobs. But really, you shouldn't be keeping it in on them anyways.

The recoil damage will take out a significant portion of Gardevoir's health, you know.

 

[TKGriffiths]

Those calculations against chansey/blissey with no defensive investment are completely meaningless and irrelevant, why did you waste your time doing that?

 

[Machi]

I've brought up before, but I really want to talk about mixed Mega Gardevoir. I'll write it up tomorrow, I'm falling asleep young thus

Moreover you're still giving up potential coverage, in the case of your suggestion Moonblast/Hyper Voice which is a huge trade off on its own, as well as limiting the power of MGardevoir's other moves due to possible investments to atk EV (compounded by the lack of LO which makes most mixed sets effective in the first place). I really don't think this needs to be brought up again since it requires a steep trade off, and this isn't even considering the recoil damage on a mon that already has bulk issues.

 

[skies]

Those calculations against chansey/blissey with no defensive investment are completely meaningless and irrelevant, why did you waste your time doing that?

Evening the playing field, notice how both sides are at 0 everywhere.

And guys, I'm not saying you should always use Double-Edge and everything else sucks!!!11!, but it is a gimmicky option that can get through the blobs, s'all.

 

[Machi]

Evening the playing field, notice how both sides are at 0 everywhere.

And guys, I'm not saying you should always use Double-Edge and everything else sucks!!!11!, but it is a gimmicky option that can get through the blobs, s'all.

But the blobs are hardly your primary concern which can be dispatched via Psyshock without the drawbacks. What MGardevoir tends to have issues with are Scizor and Aegislash, and other steels depending on the coverage it opts for. Double Edge does nothing to alleviate that issue, you're still not getting past anything new, since the mons you've mentioned in the calcs prior when you brought this up the first time were not necessarily issues in the first place since MGard already had the tools in her special move pool to be rid of them without any drawbacks as compared to using Double edge.

 

[TKGriffiths]

Evening the playing field, notice how both sides are at 0 everywhere.

And guys, I'm not saying you should always use Double-Edge and everything else sucks!!!11!, but it is a gimmicky option that can get through the blobs, s'all.

"Evening the playing field" makes no sense because it doesn't apply to any real situation.

 

[Aoda]

I'm not sure why people are discussing gardevoir vs aegislash. With defenses that poor, She has no business staying in on aegislash. Moonblast/Shadowball was only mentioned at first, because it has near perfect coverage.

 

[Strykeypoo]

Does Mega Gardevoir win the 6th gen award for base stats that indicate one way of usage but a movepool and typing that suggests another?

165/100 are amazing offensive stats, and Pixilate would be an amazing ability, essentially giving it a Life Orb for its Fairy stab Hyper Voice. That weak offensive coverage is probably the biggest roadblock. Offensive Gardevoir needs to run max speed if it doesn't want to miss out on a load of speed ties, but (for example) even with modest it still has to rely on SR to reliably kill minimum investment Talonflame. Then there are pokemon like Heatran and Aegislash it just can't touch, while without defensive investment even Jolly Garchomp can revenge kill it EQ.

That support movepool is so good, though.

 

[NoStatusPlz]

Does Mega Gardevoir win the 6th gen award for base stats that indicate one way of usage but a movepool and typing that suggests another?

165/100 are amazing offensive stats, and Pixilate would be an amazing ability, essentially giving it a Life Orb for its Fairy stab Hyper Voice. That weak offensive coverage is probably the biggest roadblock. Offensive Gardevoir needs to run max speed if it doesn't want to miss out on a load of speed ties, but (for example) even with modest it still has to rely on SR to reliably kill minimum investment Talonflame. Then there are pokemon like Heatran and Aegislash it just can't touch, while without defensive investment even Jolly Garchomp can revenge kill it EQ.

That support movepool is so good, though.

I suggested a mixed set, take a look. incredibly useful given that very few steels are immune to thunder wave (excadrill, ??) and can cripple pretty much all her common switch ins. encore destroys walls and makes it an effective wallbreaker too. the half support/half nuke setup is the way to go imo.

 

[skies]

"Evening the playing field" makes no sense because it doesn't apply to any real situation.

252 Atk Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 255-300 (36.2 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 207-244 (29.4 - 34.6%) -- 8.4% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 348-409 (48.7 - 57.2%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 283-334 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Happy? Double-Edge still wins in real situations.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

252 Atk Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 255-300 (36.2 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 207-244 (29.4 - 34.6%) -- 8.4% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 348-409 (48.7 - 57.2%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 283-334 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Happy? Double-Edge still wins in real situations.

And still takes away a third of Gardevoirs own hitpoints.

Don't use recoil moves on the pink blobs... just don't.

 

[S0L1D G0LD]

252 Atk Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 255-300 (36.2 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 207-244 (29.4 - 34.6%) -- 8.4% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 348-409 (48.7 - 57.2%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 283-334 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Happy? Double-Edge still wins in real situations.

And then loses as it kills you.

 

[skies]

I'm sorry for bringing up something new besides the standard, jeez, no need to jump down my throat.

 

[S0L1D G0LD]

I'm sorry for bringing up something new besides the standard, jeez, no need to jump down my throat.

It wasn't because it's unorthodox that I shot it down, I love underrated sets, it's because of how bad recoil moves are without rock head.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

The dual offensive STABs are not quite optimal since they are both resisted by Steel types. Focus Blast is the best "solution", but from experience the 70% accuracy is quite a turn off for many players.

What is the use or niche for this thing? It takes a lot of damage from physical attacks, has no reliable means of recovery, and has no form of strong priority and it is outsped by things like Garchomp.

I suggested a mixed set, take a look. incredibly useful given that very few steels are immune to thunder wave (excadrill, ??) and can cripple pretty much all her common switch ins. encore destroys walls and makes it an effective wallbreaker too. the half support/half nuke setup is the way to go imo.

A mixed set? It only has an attack stat of 75 and does not have access to any high base physical power moves such as Superpower (with the exception of Double Edge) or a boosting item. The aforementioned calcs show that it couldn't break through Eviolite Chansey with Psyshock (so it needs Knock Off support), but at least it could break through other Fairies.

Edit:

I didn't even think about Aegislash when I suggested Focus Blast.

 

[NoStatusPlz]

ehh you should def read that whole string. mixed in terms of support/nuke

 

[El Coqui]

Does Mega Gardevoir win the 6th gen award for base stats that indicate one way of usage but a movepool and typing that suggests another?

165/100 are amazing offensive stats, and Pixilate would be an amazing ability, essentially giving it a Life Orb for its Fairy stab Hyper Voice. That weak offensive coverage is probably the biggest roadblock. Offensive Gardevoir needs to run max speed if it doesn't want to miss out on a load of speed ties, but (for example) even with modest it still has to rely on SR to reliably kill minimum investment Talonflame. Then there are pokemon like Heatran and Aegislash it just can't touch, while without defensive investment even Jolly Garchomp can revenge kill it EQ.

That support movepool is so good, though.

Bad offensive coverage? Are we talking about the same pokemon?

 

[Strykeypoo]

Bad offensive coverage? Are we talking about the same pokemon?

Yes. Fairy, Psychic, Ghost and Fighting don't provide the coverage that you need for 6th gen OU. As mentioned by several others, Aegislash just stops that. Scizor can come in on any move and then OHKO, same goes for Genesect and even Jirachi too. To get passed specially defensive Skarmory and Heatran you have to rely on Focus Miss, which will do the job less than 3/4ths of the time. Then you're still limited by the 100 speed tier, opening yourself up to revenge kills from the likes of Talonflame, Gengar, Garchomp and Mega Lucario.

M-G doesn't have the speed to sweep, so it needs to be able to come in and be able to just kill something. Usually it's not fair to come two largely unrelated pokemon to each other, but considering that Gardevoir will be taking up your mega spot on your team, you've gotta ask what it can do that Mega Lucario or Mega Pinsir wont do.

 

[El Coqui]

I thought (or am assuming) you had meant movepool but see you mean its typing okay i can see that

 

[TKGriffiths]

252 Atk Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 255-300 (36.2 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 207-244 (29.4 - 34.6%) -- 8.4% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 348-409 (48.7 - 57.2%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 283-334 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Happy? Double-Edge still wins in real situations.

What do you mean Double-Edge wins? In only the third calc do you even have a chance to win, (and even there it's less than 50%), the rest of the time they just heal off the damage and you kill yourself with recoil.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

Yes. Fairy, Psychic, Ghost and Fighting don't provide the coverage that you need for 6th gen OU. As mentioned by several others, Aegislash just stops that. Scizor can come in on any move and then OHKO, same goes for Genesect and even Jirachi too. To get passed specially defensive Skarmory and Heatran you have to rely on Focus Miss, which will do the job less than 3/4ths of the time. Then you're still limited by the 100 speed tier, opening yourself up to revenge kills from the likes of Talonflame, Gengar, Garchomp and Mega Lucario.

M-G doesn't have the speed to sweep, so it needs to be able to come in and be able to just kill something. Usually it's not fair to come two largely unrelated pokemon to each other, but considering that Gardevoir will be taking up your mega spot on your team, you've gotta ask what it can do that Mega Lucario or Mega Pinsir wont do.

Hyper Voice can go through Trevenant's subs or any subs.

 

[Machi]

It wasn't because it's unorthodox that I shot it down, I love underrated sets, it's because of how bad recoil moves are without rock head.

And that you end up losing your main STAB, which is boosted akin to LO, while having to split offenses, and you'd really be sacrificing Moonblast/Hyper Voice to carry Double Edge and Fairy STAB is the primary appeal of MGardevoir.

Unorthodox sets are good and all to the degree that they actually help to bypass things that normal sets wouldn't be able to manage or change the way in which said mon would be dealt with, but in this case it doesn't exactly change anything with how one deals with MGard since popular steels will still be the primary answer against her rather than the pink blobs (which she already can deal with to a degree thanks to Psyshock).

 

[Richitt]

Yes. Fairy, Psychic, Ghost and Fighting don't provide the coverage that you need for 6th gen OU. As mentioned by several others, Aegislash just stops that. Scizor can come in on any move and then OHKO, same goes for Genesect and even Jirachi too. To get passed specially defensive Skarmory and Heatran you have to rely on Focus Miss, which will do the job less than 3/4ths of the time. Then you're still limited by the 100 speed tier, opening yourself up to revenge kills from the likes of Talonflame, Gengar, Garchomp and Mega Lucario.

M-G doesn't have the speed to sweep, so it needs to be able to come in and be able to just kill something. Usually it's not fair to come two largely unrelated pokemon to each other, but considering that Gardevoir will be taking up your mega spot on your team, you've gotta ask what it can do that Mega Lucario or Mega Pinsir wont do.

How does Aegislash stop that? I understand the Scizor, but not the slash.

 

[reale]

I think gardevoir will become a solid mega UU
I've tried using her( yes should be her ) in Ou and it drops me below 1100s
her defense is too low, any neutral physical hit wrecks her (hello EQ).