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Pokémon Greninja
- Thread starter Hypercut
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Why do people keep trying to insist on using physical greninja? Like his attack isn't even that great, his only way to boost is power-up punch and nothing in his physical movepool does very much. Like his strongest moves are waterfall and u-turn... and I guess a mediocre acrobatics? Who's really afraid of shadow sneak from base 95 attack guys...
Does the surprise factor count for something?
Pre-Pokebank, I was running a physical Choice Banded Greninja. That STAB U-Turn does a tonne of damage to unsuspecting Special Walls. I'm pretty sure the Special set is better, but sometimes using the non-standard approach with a Pokemon can give you a huge advantage.
Absolutely disgusting.
PSA: Stop Choice locking your Greninjas, people. It defeats the entire purpose of Protean.
It doesn't necessarily defeat Protean's purpose. You still hit like a truck on something. Sure you can't switch moves, but the move you do use effectively has 2x power with Specs/Band damage plus Protean pseudo-STAB (however, if you use Scarf Greninja, you're high). Also, he said he was testing it in Pre-Pokebank stages, he's not saying it's good now. It does have a surprise factor, but overall, Special Greninja is so much better. There's really no argument.
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I think Grass Knot is better than HP Grass since it strikes a much heavier hit on targets such as Mega Gyarados, Suicune and Slowbro, not to mention Ttar, Terrakion and Hippowdon while still hitting Azumarill for the same damage as HP Grass. Rotom-W is 2HKOed by Extrasensory anyway unless specially defensive, which is suboptimal this gen and mostly used by people who run the default spread of Showdown(hence they should be easier to beat because they are new to the game). HP Fire is nice tho.
It has Return, a powerfull and reliable move. Physical Greninja should always spam Return unless it's coverage moves are better in this situation.
Stop. Just stop. When the only good move you have is RETURN, then there's a problem.
Physical Greninja is shit, has no niche, and should never be discussed again.
Why are people using physical greninja..I'm pretty sure special greninja is more effective, and does more damage.
I've lost counts on how many times have we discussed Physical Greninja, the general consensus seems to be that Special Greninja completely outclasses it, but if Greninja somehow got access to better physical moves (probably via move tutor in either ORAS or an hypothetical Z version) it could become viable, but as it is now there is no reason to use it in competitive battling.
I didn't said that Physical Greninja should be used, I said that if it's used, it should run Return, because it is it's best move and has good neutral coverage with Waterfall and Night Slash and that it should be used if you can't hit something for SE damage with your other moves.
Let's discuss special Greninja. I find extrasensory to be a great move on greninja as it allows you to deal with mega venusaur and keldeo, two very common pokes. Hidden power fire is also very useful as scizor often switches in on a predicted ice beam hoping to bullet punch you. HP fire also deals with ferrothorn, another common switch in.
Ok, maybe Physical isn't THAT BAD.
It can also 2HKO Mega Venosaur with Extrasensory
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 244-291 (67 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO and thanks to being Psychic Type you don't get OHKO back, though you get quite chunked down.
What? That fight was either rigged or crap. What self-respecting non-Mega Stone Aerodactyl is slow enough to get beat by a Greninja? Don't get me started on the crappy set on that Zygarde.
Edit: Rock Slide is a fun move, though. If it ever gets a move better than Power Up Punch, it'll stop getting crapped on.
I use a variant of this set and pair it with Bisharp, and it actually works pretty well!
I honestly don't like the combo of U-Turn + LO. I find it counterproductive most of the time.
I've been using a Choice Specs Greninja, and so far its been my favourite Greninja to use. Expert Belt Greninja doesn't hit hard enough for me, and Life Orb Greninja doesn't last long. Specs Hydro Bump is a scary attack that few Pokemons enjoy facing. Both Timid and Modest hit hard, but I go with Modest because I'm greedy.
A timid Specs Greninja calculations:
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 160-190 (49.3 - 58.6%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 374-444 (115.4 - 137%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mega Venusaur: 234-276 (64.2 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 204-240 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-W: 170-204 (55.9 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
As for Modest:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mega Venusaur: 254-302 (69.7 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 218-260 (53.9 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 344-408 (83 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 410-486 (126.5 - 150%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 288-340 (80.4 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 348-410 (90.1 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 222-264 (74.4 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
A timid Specs Greninja calculations:
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 160-190 (49.3 - 58.6%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 374-444 (115.4 - 137%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mega Venusaur: 234-276 (64.2 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 204-240 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-W: 170-204 (55.9 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
As for Modest:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mega Venusaur: 254-302 (69.7 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 218-260 (53.9 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 344-408 (83 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 410-486 (126.5 - 150%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 288-340 (80.4 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 348-410 (90.1 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 222-264 (74.4 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
While specs are perfectly viable I think the ability to switch moves and take advantage of its great coverage and protean is better for greninja, so life orb is generally preferred.
But Protean is sometimes a double edged sword if the other player predicts correctly right.
Never use Modest Greninja. Ever. Period.
Choice specs Greninja is bad because you already have power with STAB and high base-power moves. You're basically taking away your wonderful coverage and locking it into one move, which in kind of pointless...
Those calculations above are kind of meaningless because Greninja already gets most of those OHKOs and 2HKOs with Life Orb...
If you don't believe me, I can show you with my own calculations. In conclusion, stick to Special LO Greninja, please and thank you.
My effort to get a new discussion going: Substitute+3 Attacks Greninja
Greninja forces so many switches, so a Substitute set can let it predict less against stuff like Conkeldurr, and be less easily revenged by stuff like Talonflame, Breloom, and Scizor. It does have its downfalls, such as Losing it's health very quickly. So, a set would look something like this:
Greninja@Life Orb/Expert Belt
-Substitute
-Extrasensory
-Ice Beam
-Hydro Pump
Just a new idea to get the discussion going and talk about something other than Physical Greninja (which we were bashing back in December lol).
Choice specs Greninja is bad because you already have power with STAB and high base-power moves. You're basically taking away your wonderful coverage and locking it into one move, which in kind of pointless...
Those calculations above are kind of meaningless because Greninja already gets most of those OHKOs and 2HKOs with Life Orb...
If you don't believe me, I can show you with my own calculations. In conclusion, stick to Special LO Greninja, please and thank you.
My effort to get a new discussion going: Substitute+3 Attacks Greninja
Greninja forces so many switches, so a Substitute set can let it predict less against stuff like Conkeldurr, and be less easily revenged by stuff like Talonflame, Breloom, and Scizor. It does have its downfalls, such as Losing it's health very quickly. So, a set would look something like this:
Greninja@Life Orb/Expert Belt
-Substitute
-Extrasensory
-Ice Beam
-Hydro Pump
Just a new idea to get the discussion going and talk about something other than Physical Greninja (which we were bashing back in December lol).
Specs Greninja does not make Protean pointless because Protean powers up Greninja's coverage moves as well, so spamming one move isn't entirely useless.
Sub Greninja sounds nice, although it is a bit sad that it turns Greninja into a type with no resistances and one immunity. At least Greninja is good at forcing switches, as you said.
And yes, Modest Greninja isn't worth it since you're not even outspeeding Keldeo or Latios.
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