Other Stall

[Aragorn the King]

Yeah, it would in fact use two bulky waters. It has a FWG core outside of Heatran as well, so I'd be trading a second fire for a second water. I dunno if that's really the solution, but currently Heatran was pulling the least weight of the members on the team and my team would really like water and ice coverage in general.

I'm gonna test it but I was wondering if I could have help in finding out what Empoleon can handle and what it can't, which is why I asked about it.

Interesting. Try it out - see if it works for you. As long as Thundurus + other electrics can be taken care of by other teammates, Empoleon may be a good fit. I don't like it as a sole bulky water since it doesn't resist fire moves, but with two bws, it may work.

 

[Scubasage]

Interesting. Try it out - see if it works for you. As long as Thundurus + other electrics can be taken care of by other teammates, Empoleon may be a good fit. I don't like it as a sole bulky water since it doesn't resist fire moves, but with two bws, it may work.

Thundurus is a shaky one I admit. It might just be easier to have you look at my RMT, if you wouldn't mind.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-fish-the-pixie-and-the-bell-a-tale-of-ou-stall.3514287/

I know the team isn't "optimal" because of a self imposed restriction, but that doesn't mean I can't try to optimize it as best I can anyways.

 

[Aragorn the King]

Thundurus is a shaky one I admit. It might just be easier to have you look at my RMT, if you wouldn't mind.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-fish-the-pixie-and-the-bell-a-tale-of-ou-stall.3514287/

I know the team isn't "optimal" because of a self imposed restriction, but that doesn't mean I can't try to optimize it as best I can anyways.

Sure! I enjoy rating teams - I'll do it when I have time.

 

[Sun King]

One of my in-the-works teams uses two bulky waters (SpDef MegaDos and Quagsire) and I find that the duo work quite well together. Gyarados takes things such as Lando, Keldeo, and Talonflame; Quaggy really helps deal with things like Thundy and Rotom--both of which threaten Gyarados.

 

[StairFall]

One of my in-the-works teams uses two bulky waters (SpDef MegaDos and Quagsire) and I find that the duo work quite well together. Gyarados takes things such as Lando, Keldeo, and Talonflame; Quaggy really helps deal with things like Thundy and Rotom--both of which threaten Gyarados.

You said Megados, so I'm curious how he apparently tanks Keldeo. Considering that you're weak to secret sword and it hits your lower defensive stat.

In unrelated news I recently was testing moltres and a Charizard-Y KO'd him with ancient power and then swept me since he gpt the boost. Not exactly a likely thing I know but if Moltres gains tractionmore offensive teams incorporating Yzard may start using AP over roost.

 

[Aragorn the King]

One of my in-the-works teams uses two bulky waters (SpDef MegaDos and Quagsire) and I find that the duo work quite well together. Gyarados takes things such as Lando, Keldeo, and Talonflame; Quaggy really helps deal with things like Thundy and Rotom--both of which threaten Gyarados.

I'd recommend using specially defensive Gyarados instead of Mega Gyarados. I know you can just mega evolve immediately, but there's really no benefit to every being mega evolved when defensive. The leftovers recovery + permanent Intimidate make me like normal dos more than mega dos a lot more for resttalk sets.

You said Megados, so I'm curious how he apparently tanks Keldeo. Considering that you're weak to secret sword and it hits your lower defensive stat.

In unrelated news I recently was testing moltres and a Charizard-Y KO'd him with ancient power and then swept me since he gpt the boost. Not exactly a likely thing I know but if Moltres gains tractionmore offensive teams incorporating Yzard may start using AP over roost.

Funny. I've seen AP on Heatran before, but never Charizard. I doubt it'll ever become a thing - Roost, Solar Beam, and Focus Miss are all very necessary.

 

[Sun King]

I don't MEVO Gyarados until those threats are out of the game. Once you do MEVO, I find that he really helps break stall with the ResTalk set. I literally just made the team today, but after 10 games it's worked pretty well. In my experience, Gyarados doesn't really NEED the passive recover for any of those things (although if I find that I really need it, it's a simple adjustment)

 

[StairFall]

I'd recommend using specially defensive Gyarados instead of Mega Gyarados. I know you can just mega evolve immediately, but there's really no benefit to every being mega evolved when defensive. The leftovers recovery + permanent Intimidate make me like normal dos more than mega dos a lot more for resttalk sets.

Funny. I've seen AP on Heatran before, but never Charizard. I doubt it'll ever become a thing - Roost, Solar Beam, and Focus Miss are all very necessary.

Really, in my experience I've seen equally as many all out attacker Yzards as I have roost + 3 attack Yzards. Typically its fire/solar/focus and then quake or hp ice. Like I said I highly doubt it will happen, most people who use roost will continue using roost, most people using 4 attack variants will stick to hp ice for that dragonite hit. But in the ever so unlikely case Moltres becomes a popular check to him I could see it catching on, since it let's you win mirror matches too.

Not really a big deal though, just something I thought was funny that happened while laddering.

I don't MEVO Gyarados until those threats are out of the game. Once you do MEVO, I find that he really helps break stall with the ResTalk set. I literally just made the team today, but after 10 games it's worked pretty well. In my experience, Gyarados doesn't really NEED the passive recover for any of those things (although if I find that I really need it, it's a simple adjustment)

The idea of using a mega pokemon that undergoes a type change to check multiple different threats depending on whether you've MEVO'd or not sounds risky. Gyarados is a good Keldeo check because you resist both STABs and are beefy from both ends of the spectrum via intimidate. Water/Flying is just an all together better typing. Not weak to fighting or grass, resist bug instead of being weak to it, ground (and spikes/T spikes) immunity.

I guess if you REALLY don't like being weak to stealth rock it's okay. Not like crawdaunt or Sharpedo are going to be competing against him as a water/dark type.

 

[Sun King]

Really, in my experience I've seen equally as many all out attacker Yzards as I have roost + 3 attack Yzards. Typically its fire/solar/focus and then quake or hp ice. Like I said I highly doubt it will happen, most people who use roost will continue using roost, most people using 4 attack variants will stick to hp ice for that dragonite hit. But in the ever so unlikely case Moltres becomes a popular check to him I could see it catching on, since it let's you win mirror matches too.

Not really a big deal though, just something I thought was funny that happened while laddering.


The idea of using a mega pokemon that undergoes a type change to check multiple different threats depending on whether you've MEVO'd or not sounds risky. Gyarados is a good Keldeo check because you resist both STABs and are beefy from both ends of the spectrum via intimidate. Water/Flying is just an all together better typing. Not weak to fighting or grass, resist bug instead of being weak to it, ground (and spikes/T spikes) immunity.

I guess if you REALLY don't like being weak to stealth rock it's okay. Not like crawdaunt or Sharpedo are going to be competing against him as a water/dark type.

The thought isn't changing its typing to take different threats. It stays base form until it can pretty much just clean up with Mega form. As I've said--it's worked quite well in the first few games. Literally the only thing that's different up until the MEVO is the Leftovers recovery--which--when combined with wish support, really isn't much of an issue.

EDIT: On top of that, it absorbs Knock Off from anything not named Bisharp very nicely.

 

[StairFall]

The thought isn't changing its typing to take different threats. It stays base form until it can pretty much just clean up with Mega form. As I've said--it's worked quite well in the first few games. Literally the only thing that's different up until the MEVO is the Leftovers recovery--which--when combined with wish support, really isn't much of an issue.

EDIT: On top of that, it absorbs Knock Off from anything not named Bisharp very nicely.

So you're not using Megados as a wall or tank, you're using Specially defensive gyarados, but giving up lefties for the ability to MEVO late game and use him as an offensive pokemon.

I'd like to see the entire set, because I don't see Specially defensive Dos giving up any utility for say dragon dance, and I don't see Megados cleaning late game without either DDing up or running a fully offensive spread.

I'd recommend running a semi-stall team with more aggressive passive damage and heavy use of burn coupled with a bulky DD Megados to clean up at the end.

 

[Sun King]

So you're not using Megados as a wall or tank, you're using Specially defensive gyarados, but giving up lefties for the ability to MEVO late game and use him as an offensive pokemon.

I'd like to see the entire set, because I don't see Specially defensive Dos giving up any utility for say dragon dance, and I don't see Megados cleaning late game without either DDing up or running a fully offensive spread.

I'd recommend running a semi-stall team with more aggressive passive damage and heavy use of burn coupled with a bulky DD Megados to clean up at the end.

What utility are you talking about? On my team, he's literally a Lando/Keldeo/Talonflame counter. I use DD for when it's time to clean. All you need is Waterfall and max HP/SpDef to counter the aforementioned threats. Paired with Chesnaught's Leech Seed, you can get all the passive recovery/residual damage you want.

 

[StairFall]

What utility are you talking about? On my team, he's literally a Lando/Keldeo/Talonflame counter. I use DD for when it's time to clean. All you need is Waterfall and max HP/SpDef to counter the aforementioned threats. Paired with Chesnaught's Leech Seed, you can get all the passive recovery/residual damage you want.

So he's a dedicated keldeo/lando/Smogonberd counter rather than a particularly dedicated special wall. You're no running rest or T wave or dragon tail or anything like that?

Wouldn't tanking hits early game diminish ypur ability to set up multiple DDs late game? I mean with no attack or speed investment ypu're not cleaning with just 1.

 

[Sun King]

So he's a dedicated keldeo/lando/Smogonberd counter rather than a particularly dedicated special wall. You're no running rest or T wave or dragon tail or anything like that?

Wouldn't tanking hits early game diminish ypur ability to set up multiple DDs late game? I mean with no attack or speed investment ypu're not cleaning with just 1.

Correct--he's a dedicated counter; the difference is that if I find myself in a situation where I can boost up multiple times without anything interrupting me, I can sweep. I am running Rest; that way I can stay healthy throughout the match. The reason I'm using Gyaradosite over Leftovers is the extra power, bulk, and Mold Breaker (sup Quagsire). Tanking hits early generally doesn't affect my ability to clean up late game because I run Sylveon for Wish support, and Chesnaught helps provide Leech Seed recovery (on things like Chansey, 'Mola, etc.). The team is a fully functioning full stall team, with the option to boost up with Gyarados if the circumstances are right.

As for running T-Wave or D-tail--
I never use Thunder Wave on my teams because I'm okay with being outsped--the hax chance COULD potentially help, but I'd rather have a damaging status such as Burn or Toxic on my opponents. Dragon Tail, on the other hand, COULD be useful. I feel that my team, however, can handle most threats without needing Dragon Tail. Additionally, the team is not very hazard-centric, so D-Tail doesn't really fit in much.

I wouldn't have used Gyaradosite if it didn't fit in with the rest of my team.

 

[MagikaripIsOP]

Ajwf don't want to rush you or anything but when are you going update your stall guide?

 

[Ajwf]

I at least want to wait for mawile to finish. Beyond that, I think the issue is I haven't made enough stall teams this meta... It's a different beast and I haven't devoted much (any) time to figuring it out.

 

[TIZNE]

Yeah, I'm interested in that guide of yours too, Ajwf . I've been using it even in this new meta, focusing the first slot to be a dedicated CB Azumarril counter (instead of Aegi), taking the Grass/Poison choice, so it's still an "Ice Weak" slot.

I'm expecting a suspect for Heracross, Pinsir, CharX, and maybe even the genies... IMHO, banning Aegislash was like opening the Pandora's box...

 

[Sun King]

IMHO, we're probably not getting suspects for Heracronite, Gardevoirite, nor Medichamite. They just don't carry their weight against offense, and that's the majority of the player base. I don't think there's going to be enough of an outcry for the ban.

Mega Pinsir, on the other hand, has gotten to the point of absurdity. You CAN still counter it with Rhyperior and Doublade (Doublade 0 Spe IV can Gyro Ball twice then kill with Shadow Sneak) but it really has gone too far. Close Combat lets it get past its previous counter, Skarmory. At the same time, he shits on offense, so I think he'll probably get at least a suspect test.

TIZNE you're totally right: banning Aegislash WAS like opening Pandora's box. I just wish that offensive players could get over themselves and realize that a balanced metagame means that neither offense NOR stall (nor balanced) dominates. Offense is so ridiculous with this gen's power creep.

 

[Ajwf]

One of the few stalls I've seen to have major success recently is Tesung's (for reference). I've been looking through stall teams more than anything else because there's just so much less time if I was to try and develop a trend for stall team spots than what I had before... I mean, I basically had from January to July to make the conclusions about the trend in an aegislash meta... Between Monte Cristo's (and I guess by extension, Adrian's) victinistall, Tesung's, and a few of my own dabbles, I'm trying to pick up specific trends.

But the one trend both Monte and Tesung followed was a speedy psychic type. I know what monte's is for (I've talked to him multiple times), he runs victini to take out mega heracross (Checks it, I believe) and counter Medicham-mega. I'm not sure Tesung's jirachi can counter either, (he was choosing between a spdef and scarf set last time I saw him), but his would be able to, with a scarf, check medi/hera/gard. With Spedef and some speed, it probably still checks hera, counters gard and lets something else solve Medi. In fact, Tesung runs a second psychic, starmie, which I believe is probably the bulky set jukain has been advertising. I would imagine it checks Medi at the very least. I know Jukain's set outsped a raikou so it could easily manage. So I'm wondering if the answer to these new wallbreakers isn't Fast Psychics or Doublade.

It seems that somehow, stall is meant to take those three wallbreakers with two mons max. It seems like Victini from the psychics will check all of them. Spdef Jirachi can counter in one (gard) and check another (hera). Scarf checks all three. Starmie can check two (Hera/Medi) but probably can't stop a Gard. Even a modest Alakazam could check off Medi/Hera, and it does have access to taunt. Even Sableye (+another mon) is pretty decent for checking down Hera and basically countering Medi.

Keldeo countering has become a very noticeable role recently. Even though it's not considered a great stall breaker even with specs, you can't just have a chansey do it. Amoongus/Venu, Starmie, Slowbro and Celebi all are pretty prevalent, especially since all of them can perform other roles. I'm thinking that if you use a second mon to cover off the three wallbreakers, that mon also is responsible for keldeo (since psychics can basically overlap on medi and keldeo).

And as a last note, two of the three teams I'm looking over use a target other than skarm to take on Pinsir-mega. Tesung and I both have forgone Skarm for a rock type (Aero-Mega and Rhyperior respectively). Just food for thought.

 

[Scubasage]

Ajwf I remember seeing a set for Mega Aero on stall but I don't remember where, and it was a week or two ago. Would you happen to know what it was? Or if not, if you were to use Mega Aero on stall to counter birdspam, what set would you run?

EDIT: Disregard this, I'm really dumb. It was in the Aerodactyl thread rather than a stall related thread.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/aerodactyl.3490131/page-4#post-5643830

 

[StairFall]

IMHO, we're probably not getting suspects for Heracronite, Gardevoirite, nor Medichamite. They just don't carry their weight against offense, and that's the majority of the player base. I don't think there's going to be enough of an outcry for the ban.

Mega Pinsir, on the other hand, has gotten to the point of absurdity. You CAN still counter it with Rhyperior and Doublade (Doublade 0 Spe IV can Gyro Ball twice then kill with Shadow Sneak) but it really has gone too far. Close Combat lets it get past its previous counter, Skarmory. At the same time, he shits on offense, so I think he'll probably get at least a suspect test.

TIZNE you're totally right: banning Aegislash WAS like opening Pandora's box. I just wish that offensive players could get over themselves and realize that a balanced metagame means that neither offense NOR stall (nor balanced) dominates. Offense is so ridiculous with this gen's power creep.

I disagree. Power creep is part of the game, and a healthy metagame is not necessarily a perfectly balanced metagame. Gen II for instance is lopsided as hell and almost Stall: The Game, however it's also one of the most stable and playable metas there is. Just because something shits all over stall isn't a reason to ban it, it just means stall isn't particularly viable this generation. I like stall, but that doesn't mean heracronite, gardevoirite, or medchamite deserve a ban just because they crap on 1 particular playstyle.

More on topic, I've been experimenting with Fairies recently, and how does everyone feel about Togekiss? Sure it's doubly immune to two types that have fairly great synergy together, however I've had limited success with it and it mostly just takes hits and then recovers, not contributing to the weakening of the other team. Most of my stall teams have used steels instead of fairies for dragon control but after getting torn to shreds by a bulky Char-X recently I've been looking into them. Azumarill is a fantastic Char-X counter I know, but it's also very offensively oriented. I was considering a sub punch azumarill but am unsure.

 

[Sun King]

I disagree. Power creep is part of the game, and a healthy metagame is not necessarily a perfectly balanced metagame. Gen II for instance is lopsided as hell and almost Stall: The Game, however it's also one of the most stable and playable metas there is. Just because something shits all over stall isn't a reason to ban it, it just means stall isn't particularly viable this generation. I like stall, but that doesn't mean heracronite, gardevoirite, or medchamite deserve a ban just because they crap on 1 particular playstyle.

More on topic, I've been experimenting with Fairies recently, and how does everyone feel about Togekiss? Sure it's doubly immune to two types that have fairly great synergy together, however I've had limited success with it and it mostly just takes hits and then recovers, not contributing to the weakening of the other team. Most of my stall teams have used steels instead of fairies for dragon control but after getting torn to shreds by a bulky Char-X recently I've been looking into them. Azumarill is a fantastic Char-X counter I know, but it's also very offensively oriented. I was considering a sub punch azumarill but am unsure.

If I'm not mistaken, our goal is to make a perfectly balanced metagame…

Part of the reason Gen II is so stable is because of a few things. First, there are only about 25-30 actual OU threats. To put that into perspective, that's less than all of the A ranked threats in our current OU (A meaning A+, A, and A-). Second, Gen II is as you said--dominated by stall. A stall-based metagame will ALWAYS be stable because it's consistent. Part of the reason so many tour players use stall is because of that consistency. But, however, just because it's stable doesn't meant it's balanced.

Also, please re-read my post. I didn't say that Heracross, Gardevoir, nor Medicham deserved a ban because of how they crap on stall. I said that they weren't likely to get a ban because of the minor impact they have on the rest of the metagame. As for the power creep being part of the game…I liken the power creep to inflation in an economy. It's inevitable, yet you need to keep it in check; it's essentially maintaining the hygiene of the metagame.

And to help contribute to the rest of the thread, I find myself using cleric Clefable quite a bit. It's really awesome to be able to compress an Unaware user and a cleric all in one. This does have the drawback, however, of putting a lot of pressure on to Clefable. The more things it can do, the greater its importance is to stay alive. Togekiss could have the potential to do some cool semi-stall shenanigans with NP Baton Passing.

 

[StairFall]

Also, please re-read my post. I didn't say that Heracross, Gardevoir, nor Medicham deserved a ban because of how they crap on stall. I said that they weren't likely to get a ban because of the minor impact they have on the rest of the metagame. As for the power creep being part of the game…I liken the power creep to inflation in an economy. It's inevitable, yet you need to keep it in check; it's essentially maintaining the hygiene of the metagame.

My mistake, I'd misinterpreted your opinion about hera/gard/medi and assumed you meant that they indeed did deserve bans/suspect tests for the sake of balance but wouldn't be suspect because the majority of the playerbase isn't particularly bothered by them.

Thanks for the clefable suggestion. I'd been using Chansey as my cleric, but I think I'll consider a counter chansey if I make clefable my cleric. My team's defences lean slightly toward the special side of the spectrum, so a pokemon like counter chansey that can simply remove physical threats from the game rather than wearing them down may be just what I need.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

I just think full stall is flat-out shit. You NEED more offensive presence than just a zard x or scizor. Semi-stall isn't much better, but at least it has something resembling offensive presence. I just think you need to settle for checking the bigger threats(hera, medi, garde, terra, mew etc.)and countering the rest. you can't counter the meta anymore, and its just too apparent this gen. Gen 6 was the point where a balanced meta became somewhat impossible, because the power creep is too great. Unless something drastic happens next gen, I feel pokemon is doomed to an inherently imbalanced meta.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

One of the few stalls I've seen to have major success recently is Tesung's (for reference). I've been looking through stall teams more than anything else because there's just so much less time if I was to try and develop a trend for stall team spots than what I had before... I mean, I basically had from January to July to make the conclusions about the trend in an aegislash meta... Between Monte Cristo's (and I guess by extension, Adrian's) victinistall, Tesung's, and a few of my own dabbles, I'm trying to pick up specific trends.

But the one trend both Monte and Tesung followed was a speedy psychic type. I know what monte's is for (I've talked to him multiple times), he runs victini to take out mega heracross (Checks it, I believe) and counter Medicham-mega. I'm not sure Tesung's jirachi can counter either, (he was choosing between a spdef and scarf set last time I saw him), but his would be able to, with a scarf, check medi/hera/gard. With Spedef and some speed, it probably still checks hera, counters gard and lets something else solve Medi. In fact, Tesung runs a second psychic, starmie, which I believe is probably the bulky set jukain has been advertising. I would imagine it checks Medi at the very least. I know Jukain's set outsped a raikou so it could easily manage. So I'm wondering if the answer to these new wallbreakers isn't Fast Psychics or Doublade.

It seems that somehow, stall is meant to take those three wallbreakers with two mons max. It seems like Victini from the psychics will check all of them. Spdef Jirachi can counter in one (gard) and check another (hera). Scarf checks all three. Starmie can check two (Hera/Medi) but probably can't stop a Gard. Even a modest Alakazam could check off Medi/Hera, and it does have access to taunt. Even Sableye (+another mon) is pretty decent for checking down Hera and basically countering Medi.

Keldeo countering has become a very noticeable role recently. Even though it's not considered a great stall breaker even with specs, you can't just have a chansey do it. Amoongus/Venu, Starmie, Slowbro and Celebi all are pretty prevalent, especially since all of them can perform other roles. I'm thinking that if you use a second mon to cover off the three wallbreakers, that mon also is responsible for keldeo (since psychics can basically overlap on medi and keldeo).

And as a last note, two of the three teams I'm looking over use a target other than skarm to take on Pinsir-mega. Tesung and I both have forgone Skarm for a rock type (Aero-Mega and Rhyperior respectively). Just food for thought.

I feel checking those threats isn't quite good enough.
Victini is 2hko by HJK after SR
heracross does major damage also

252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 202-238 (62.3 - 73.4%)
can't ko back either.

Jirachi is pretty good tho.

Keldeo and Pinsir countering is pretty important tho

and smog frog last i checked semi stall was topping the ladder

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

I feel checking those threats isn't quite good enough.
Victini is 2hko by HJK after SR
heracross does major damage also

252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 202-238 (62.3 - 73.4%)
can't ko back either.

Jirachi is pretty good tho.

Keldeo and Pinsir countering is pretty important tho

and smog frog last i checked semi stall was topping the ladder

because the ladder is generally mediocre, and shitty stall/semi-stall>shitty offense users