I believe that's just got to do with the availability of rain in UU. Drizzle politoed is banned in UU while Sand stream Hippowdon is not, so it is much easier for Stoutland to pull of a sweep than somehow getting up rain with other mons. Sand can be brought up even when hippo is put to sleep but to bring rain up you have to either be faster (involves prankster most of the time) or live a hit/not get taunted and press rain dance.
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ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter dingbat
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Im stupid forgot drizzle is banned ... If it is unbanned however, I expect Kabutops to make a dramatic rise up the rankings.
If it is, then it probably will.
Raikou is definitely pretty good at the moment. What di you guys think is a better coverage move on raikou? Hp grass or ice?
Grass, definitely; now that Zygarde is gone, it's much better to hit Swampert than it does to hit Gligar, in general. I think it depends on your team though, whether you want to lure in Gligar or Swampert.
i dont know if you can call it lure per se, as lets be honest, any self respecting UU player knows that Raikou is gonna have either one of the 2, and will likely switch no matter what. Its definitely used to kill them, but lure them, not so much.
Florges needs to move down to B+ because it can't do anything to its counters/checks. It can't toxic nidoqueen/king, can't toxic jirachi, can't toxic crobat, can't toxic MAggron, and moonblast does absolutely shit to any of them. At least fighting types and chandelure can't switch freely in on blissey and Porygon-Z because thunder-wave.
Also its wishes are weak.
It also loses a vast majority of the time to the 4 pokemon in S-rank (not that I necessarily agree with them being in S-rank). Jirachi absolutely destroys it without taking more than 10% damage back. Most Entei's are choice-banded and 2HKO easily with sacred fire, while not fearing anything but toxic. Crobat can sometimes 2HKO with brave bird, other times it can Taunt+toxic or Taunt+brave bird that will easily wear Florges down. Suicune sets up all over Florges due to it not having a phazing move and even 2HKOes it with a +6 scald.
Also, why is Goodra down at C? l know it has no recovery so it faces competition from special walls, but it still has a solid defensive typing, an absolutely fantastic movepool, ability to tank numerous special hits and retaliate with huge Draco Meteors, and can go physical to lure out its counters. And Gooey makes it great death fodder for offensive teams.
Also its wishes are weak.
It also loses a vast majority of the time to the 4 pokemon in S-rank (not that I necessarily agree with them being in S-rank). Jirachi absolutely destroys it without taking more than 10% damage back. Most Entei's are choice-banded and 2HKO easily with sacred fire, while not fearing anything but toxic. Crobat can sometimes 2HKO with brave bird, other times it can Taunt+toxic or Taunt+brave bird that will easily wear Florges down. Suicune sets up all over Florges due to it not having a phazing move and even 2HKOes it with a +6 scald.
Also, why is Goodra down at C? l know it has no recovery so it faces competition from special walls, but it still has a solid defensive typing, an absolutely fantastic movepool, ability to tank numerous special hits and retaliate with huge Draco Meteors, and can go physical to lure out its counters. And Gooey makes it great death fodder for offensive teams.
Nominating Barbaracle (currently unranked) to A- rank
so, an "A rank" mon is one that "can sweep significant portions of the metagame", right? shell smash barbaracle definitely fits into this category very nicely. with a set of shell smash / razor shell / earthquake / x-scissor, and holding a lum berry, it can OHKO every mon in the S and A ranks with a few exceptions (mega aggron, chesnaught and some bulky waters) after a single boost, and it outspeeds even scarf mienshao/jirachi. it also finds a lot of space for setting up in entei, darmanitan, tauntless crobat, defensive jirachi, etc, and resists fake out / extreme speed which is huge.
so, an "A rank" mon is one that "can sweep significant portions of the metagame", right? shell smash barbaracle definitely fits into this category very nicely. with a set of shell smash / razor shell / earthquake / x-scissor, and holding a lum berry, it can OHKO every mon in the S and A ranks with a few exceptions (mega aggron, chesnaught and some bulky waters) after a single boost, and it outspeeds even scarf mienshao/jirachi. it also finds a lot of space for setting up in entei, darmanitan, tauntless crobat, defensive jirachi, etc, and resists fake out / extreme speed which is huge.
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Barbaracle...in A-?
Okay I think you're literally aiming extremely high for Barbaracle. Considering how it's mediocre in NU and is barely passable in RU I don't see why it would deserve to be so highly ranked in UU. I get that it can sweep with Shell Smash but I mean why would I ever want to use this thing ever any Shell Smash user available. A prime example of another Shell Smash user in UU is Cloyster, who is currently C Rank, and has major advantage over Barbaracle because it can smash Substitutes and can also afford to go mixed with Hydro Pump, and that gives Barbaracle competition for a teamslot. I understand Barbaracle also has the ability to set up on birds and Entei and Darmanitan and has a more expansive movepool, but it needs to have a setup opportunity to be any good really, and even Omastar does way better than Barbar as a Smasher because more power. It has an awful lot of weaknesses and there's no guarantee you'll be able to set up on those aforementioned mons. Barbaracle needs way too much support for an A Rank mon, I could see it in C because I guess being able to sweep is cool, but putting it up with metagame staples in A- just isn't okay, it needs way too much support for such a high ranking.
I'm frankly going to question Medicham's placement in B- again. Frankly I don't see why I would ever want to use this thing as a wallbreaker. Even though it "2HKOes/OHKOes everything in the tier!!!" that's not really that good, and beyond that, it's strictly inferior to a load of Fighting-types in UU like Mienshao, Infernape, Machamp, even Hitmonlee, etc. all of which have better coverage or better bulk (in Machamp's case). Yeah I get Medicham hits hard but it's slow compared to Infernape and Mienshao, and the lack of Knock Off really hurts and gives it a complete inability to break things like Cresselia. Even if it does work decently I don't think it's worth using over other Fighting-types in UU, it's too frail and outclassed to be worth it imo. Being able to 2HKO/OHKO everything in the tier doesn't make it viable.
Also Florges is A- because the CM+Aroma+Synthesis set is really good. It's an impressive bulky sweeper with reliable recovery and an incredible defensive typing, holding three valuable resistances as we've all seen, and it can boost its power and become almost completely impeccable on the special side once it boosts a CM or two, which with Florges is really easy because of its bulk and typing. It can heal itself reliably which is awesome and remove status from itself, and it can hit hard with a Moonblast after it attains enough boost, which can even heavily dent Mega Aggron once that is weakened. If we're looking at the WishTect set alone, then yes, that set is B+ at best as it is only as useful as fellow WishPassers Aromatisse and Blissey, but its CM+Synthesis set puts it a notch above those two, it's a really good set and you should definitely try it: you won't be disappointed.
Idk about Goodra but I like the CB set a lot and I think that set is legit, it switches in on Shaymin and to an extent Celebi and Chesnaught really well and with CB intact its Outrage hits hard, and it crushes bulky Water-types with CB Power Whip which is awesome because bulky Waters are plentiful in this meta, having EQ and Iron Tail as coverage is also nice especially to crush Florges and Aroma with the latter thinking they can come in...Really cool stuff imo, and it still packs decent special bulk to take on stuff like Raikou and bulky Waters, which is neat. Not quite sure if it deserves higher or to stay but the CB set is kinda neat, so it could also be in the same level as stuff like Spiritomb, Diancie, and Feraligatr in B-. Idk though lol since I know Goodra has rather stiff competition as a Dragon-type, but imo I do think it's kinda legit with CB.
Okay that was longer than what I had planned to post but...whatever lol.
Okay I think you're literally aiming extremely high for Barbaracle. Considering how it's mediocre in NU and is barely passable in RU I don't see why it would deserve to be so highly ranked in UU. I get that it can sweep with Shell Smash but I mean why would I ever want to use this thing ever any Shell Smash user available. A prime example of another Shell Smash user in UU is Cloyster, who is currently C Rank, and has major advantage over Barbaracle because it can smash Substitutes and can also afford to go mixed with Hydro Pump, and that gives Barbaracle competition for a teamslot. I understand Barbaracle also has the ability to set up on birds and Entei and Darmanitan and has a more expansive movepool, but it needs to have a setup opportunity to be any good really, and even Omastar does way better than Barbar as a Smasher because more power. It has an awful lot of weaknesses and there's no guarantee you'll be able to set up on those aforementioned mons. Barbaracle needs way too much support for an A Rank mon, I could see it in C because I guess being able to sweep is cool, but putting it up with metagame staples in A- just isn't okay, it needs way too much support for such a high ranking.
I'm frankly going to question Medicham's placement in B- again. Frankly I don't see why I would ever want to use this thing as a wallbreaker. Even though it "2HKOes/OHKOes everything in the tier!!!" that's not really that good, and beyond that, it's strictly inferior to a load of Fighting-types in UU like Mienshao, Infernape, Machamp, even Hitmonlee, etc. all of which have better coverage or better bulk (in Machamp's case). Yeah I get Medicham hits hard but it's slow compared to Infernape and Mienshao, and the lack of Knock Off really hurts and gives it a complete inability to break things like Cresselia. Even if it does work decently I don't think it's worth using over other Fighting-types in UU, it's too frail and outclassed to be worth it imo. Being able to 2HKO/OHKO everything in the tier doesn't make it viable.
Also Florges is A- because the CM+Aroma+Synthesis set is really good. It's an impressive bulky sweeper with reliable recovery and an incredible defensive typing, holding three valuable resistances as we've all seen, and it can boost its power and become almost completely impeccable on the special side once it boosts a CM or two, which with Florges is really easy because of its bulk and typing. It can heal itself reliably which is awesome and remove status from itself, and it can hit hard with a Moonblast after it attains enough boost, which can even heavily dent Mega Aggron once that is weakened. If we're looking at the WishTect set alone, then yes, that set is B+ at best as it is only as useful as fellow WishPassers Aromatisse and Blissey, but its CM+Synthesis set puts it a notch above those two, it's a really good set and you should definitely try it: you won't be disappointed.
Idk about Goodra but I like the CB set a lot and I think that set is legit, it switches in on Shaymin and to an extent Celebi and Chesnaught really well and with CB intact its Outrage hits hard, and it crushes bulky Water-types with CB Power Whip which is awesome because bulky Waters are plentiful in this meta, having EQ and Iron Tail as coverage is also nice especially to crush Florges and Aroma with the latter thinking they can come in...Really cool stuff imo, and it still packs decent special bulk to take on stuff like Raikou and bulky Waters, which is neat. Not quite sure if it deserves higher or to stay but the CB set is kinda neat, so it could also be in the same level as stuff like Spiritomb, Diancie, and Feraligatr in B-. Idk though lol since I know Goodra has rather stiff competition as a Dragon-type, but imo I do think it's kinda legit with CB.
Okay that was longer than what I had planned to post but...whatever lol.
He's just testing to see how many people would bandwagon and like his post based on his reputation. Weed out the posers.
cloyster is weak to stealth rock, is OHKOed by any non resisted special move (it dies to forretress' volt switch after sr at -1), walled by literally any steel including the incredibly common jirachi/empoleon, lacks an extreme speed resistance, as well as not being able to setup on fire types, and has worse coverage.
as for omastar, it looks stronger in theory, but lets make a practical comparison. list of pokes beaten by omastar but not barbaracle: chesnaught, (mega) swampert, quagsire, gastrodon, physically defensive aromatisse...?
list of pokes beaten by barbaracle but not omastar: blissey, umbreon, spdef celebi, spdef jirachi, empoleon, cresselia, tentacruel, scarf mienshao, scarf hydreigon, scarf jirachi (hell, even scarf celebi/shaymin/roserade/lucario). what list do you think is more relevant? you can argue omastae can run earth power to beat empoleon and spded jirachi, but then it loses to any bulky water. and if you ditch ice beam, it fares even worse vs dragons/grasses.
im not trolling or anything, i just looked at the description of an A rank mon and decided it fits in well. it really sweeps most of the metagame, and basically all the support it needs is something to lure chesnaught and some bulky waters, like dbond sharpedo. this replay shows how easy it is for barbaracle to sweep a standard team. (i would have more replays, but i usually dont save them. i just searched my name in the replay viewer to see if anyone was stalking me and found that one lol)
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This seems like more of a call for a research week than an actual ranking. No one right now uses Barbaracle so we dont know whether to logically agree or disagreee. I looked at it a couple of time seeing that with tough claws it can prob wreck alot of things after +2, but that doesnt mean it does in practice. Hold off on this imo and for people to use it and see if its actually good imo
hehe I know what mons we're using next week ayyyyyyyyyy
inb4 king forgets about barbar for rw
Rw?
Research Week
Nominating Serperior for A/A+ rank.
Contrary really makes Serperior that good. It has no trouble finding setup opportunities considering that bulky waters are on almost every team. 130 base power STAB that effectively acts as Nasty Plot is a move that is on par with how amazingly good Sacred Fire is. Serperior is very comparable to Shaymin because both their Grass STABs come at effectively no opportunity cost. The only things that are holding Serperior back from being broken are Jirachi and Crobat. Even with those two checks Serperior might still be suspect worthy. So I'll say it again; Contrary really makes Serperior that good.
Contrary really makes Serperior that good. It has no trouble finding setup opportunities considering that bulky waters are on almost every team. 130 base power STAB that effectively acts as Nasty Plot is a move that is on par with how amazingly good Sacred Fire is. Serperior is very comparable to Shaymin because both their Grass STABs come at effectively no opportunity cost. The only things that are holding Serperior back from being broken are Jirachi and Crobat. Even with those two checks Serperior might still be suspect worthy. So I'll say it again; Contrary really makes Serperior that good.
I'm going to strongly support this nomination for A rank, now that people are really starting to dig into its best sets here. My expectations have finally come into reality here!!!
What I have seen lately is the influx of Synthesis+Taunt Serperior. This thing takes a massive shit on stall with that set, since Serperior can set up on most of the shit, heal off the damage, and set up all over it. This set truly adds an extra dimension to Serperior's versatility with its support moves, and it is now a true threat against any playstyle out there.
I will probably add Emboar to C rank, because it faces heavy competition with Darmanitan/Mienshao as wallbreakers, and those two are generally better options anyways. Emboar has some clear niches from those two, namely being able to deal with bulky waters to an extent, but even then, it does a shaky job at that.
What I have seen lately is the influx of Synthesis+Taunt Serperior. This thing takes a massive shit on stall with that set, since Serperior can set up on most of the shit, heal off the damage, and set up all over it. This set truly adds an extra dimension to Serperior's versatility with its support moves, and it is now a true threat against any playstyle out there.
I will probably add Emboar to C rank, because it faces heavy competition with Darmanitan/Mienshao as wallbreakers, and those two are generally better options anyways. Emboar has some clear niches from those two, namely being able to deal with bulky waters to an extent, but even then, it does a shaky job at that.
I agree with Serperior in at least A, but my only concern with putting it in A+ would be PP issues. That in my mind will always be an issue holding Serperior back. A lot of other boosters that use low-PP moves sort of get around that by boosting first and then firing off stupidly powerful attacks. But the more Serperior boosts the more quickly he gets to being dead weight.
Synth+Taunt Serperior sounds suitably horrifying, until you realize it only has 8 PP on both Leaf Storm and Synthesis, which severely limits Serperior's staying power. We know that Suicune will almost always win a PP war, but what often isn't addressed is that Sleep Talk is a HUGE part of that. That's up to 16 turns that can be hugely important. Imagine if you've already (somehow) used all 24 Scalds. Sleep Talk is potentially another 16 Scalds. Or it's a bunch of extra boosts if for whatever reason you could never fit them in while awake. Serperior just doesn't have that kind of staying power. He shreds shit very very quickly, but if Serperior doesn't make a mark very quickly he will struggle to make a mark at all.
Synth+Taunt Serperior sounds suitably horrifying, until you realize it only has 8 PP on both Leaf Storm and Synthesis, which severely limits Serperior's staying power. We know that Suicune will almost always win a PP war, but what often isn't addressed is that Sleep Talk is a HUGE part of that. That's up to 16 turns that can be hugely important. Imagine if you've already (somehow) used all 24 Scalds. Sleep Talk is potentially another 16 Scalds. Or it's a bunch of extra boosts if for whatever reason you could never fit them in while awake. Serperior just doesn't have that kind of staying power. He shreds shit very very quickly, but if Serperior doesn't make a mark very quickly he will struggle to make a mark at all.
Taunt and Synth Serp is just stupid. I battled it yesterday vs. My np togetic team. It caught me off guard, but it lets Crobat and Jirachi check it for free with little fear of Glare.
Nowadays I'm viewing Serperior similarly to Mega Beedrill in the sense that if you don't have one of the things that stops it then you're in for a world of pain. However, if you do have one of the things that stop it then it really doesn't bother you all that much. I've been playing with a team weak to Mega Beedrill recently and it is a real pain to deal with without something like Crobat on your team. I see Serperior pretty much the same way. I do agree with the PP Issues though, especially given the popularity of Entei, causing it to effectively have 4 Leaf Storms.
I wouldn't mind seeing Ferroseed ranked. It's a really superb hazard setter. It faces stiff competition from Forry, but it has better bulk and a superior defensive typing plus access to Leech Seed and Thunder Wave to distinguish itself. Iron Barbs also helps it punish Rapid Spinners and VoltTurn heavy teams. The fact that it is not afraid of bulky waters alone gives it a decent niche over Forry.
It's also a huge momentum sink and complete and utter taunt bait, so I wouldn't place it higher than C/B-, but I definitely believe it has a place in UU (albeit a small one).
I'm on my phone right now, but I'll post some replays when I get to a computer.
It's also a huge momentum sink and complete and utter taunt bait, so I wouldn't place it higher than C/B-, but I definitely believe it has a place in UU (albeit a small one).
I'm on my phone right now, but I'll post some replays when I get to a computer.
Agreeing with Serperior to be moved up (also nominating Shaymin to move down). I can see how the 8PP thing could be an issue but really that's enough to do huge damage to a lot of teams (it doesn't "effectively have 4 Leaf Storms". Also Entei gets 2HKOd by switching in without Rocks and can be OHKOd by +2 Leaf Storm after Rocks). As long as you don't mindlessly spam it when the opponent has like, a Crobat or an Amoonguss, then Leaf Storm's PP is good enough to do what Serperior needs to do. Taunt+Synth is not stupid at all and, at the cost of not being able to nail Scarf Rachi and Crobat, allows you to defeat special walls like Blissey with enough PP, enough health, and no status to defeat more Pokemon after the wall is dead. And the threat of Glare makes ScarfRachi and Crobat reluctant to switch in in the first place. In addition, many of its revenge killers (Scarf Darm, Mega Aero) can't switch directly in because of hazard damage + attack damage (and again, threat of Glare). And it's hard as hell to pivot around Serperior with the usual pivots like Gligar, Vaporeon, and even defensive Rotom-H must be at full health with no rocks on the field to switch in.
Couple replays featuring Taunt Serperior and how much work it does against balanced teams (though again, with its variety of utility moves, it goes in against all playstyles):
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-206540580
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-206373194
As for Shaymin, I think it should be moved down to A-. It is still very good and it's got some things that Serperior doesn't, such as immediate power, coverage moves to hit almost any switchin, a little more bulk, and Healing Wish. However, it's slower and Leaf Storm boosts are a lot better than Seed Flare drops, and it doesn't have the utility in Taunt and Glare that Serperior can threaten basically everything with.
TL;DR
Couple replays featuring Taunt Serperior and how much work it does against balanced teams (though again, with its variety of utility moves, it goes in against all playstyles):
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-206540580
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-206373194
As for Shaymin, I think it should be moved down to A-. It is still very good and it's got some things that Serperior doesn't, such as immediate power, coverage moves to hit almost any switchin, a little more bulk, and Healing Wish. However, it's slower and Leaf Storm boosts are a lot better than Seed Flare drops, and it doesn't have the utility in Taunt and Glare that Serperior can threaten basically everything with.
TL;DR
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