np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - Spider Man [Metagrossite remains OU]

[Cloud_Nine987]

^ Bingo. I'm still in the middle as far as banning goes (I said I was leaning towards a ban, but I'm still mostly undecided). You pointed out the biggest flaw I see in this metagame. I find it hard to take people seriously because I cannot interpret whether people truly want it gone or if they want one less threat for their teams to deal with. Every ORAS suspect has been banned so far...I mean, that's just one, but lately the whole metagame has made out not only Mega Metagross, but also Sableye and Diancie to be these absolute monsters, and some people word it like they're unbeatable or like they have zero flaws, when they do have flaws. And I've honestly found it mostly unpleasant to play the meta these days due to these exaggerated claims. Dislike this post all you guys want for my honesty, but I really kinda needed to get that out.

I don't think Mega Metagross restricts teambuilding either. There have been a few valid arguments here and there. I'm not even a mod and I see quite a few posts that are - wait for it - biased. People voting no ban? I bet some of them have Meta on their teams and don't want to lose him. Biased. I mean, on the other hand there are, again, a few valid arguments both ways, such as that Mega Meta is suspectible to burns, intimidate after mega evolving, and pursuit, but every Pokemon is. You can't call Metagross out because it's affected by burns. That'd be like calling for something like Mega Lucario to drop because it can be burned.

edit: retyped some parts of the post to make it easier to read

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

I am usually way more active on these suspect things, but I've unfortunately been busy lately. Anyway I thought I would just throw out my opinion on metagross since from what I can gather it is going to be a close call, maybe slightly leaning towards ban. I will start by saying that I am for NO BAN this time and this is the first suspect test I think I have ever been on this side. I think people want him banned because they do not want to actually build a decent team and want a list of like 10 hard counters to choose from when team building, the fact of the matter is that metagross does limit teambuilding but I do not think it is an unhealthy amount. I also think that he looks more broken from a theory mon perspective, moreso than he is in practice. Obviously I am not saying he is not good in practice, but I just think he is getting oversold because of people evaluating him from his performance on paper. In practice there are plenty of cores that teams are built around that can handle metagross perfectly, I mean slowbro, lando, ferro, hippo, starmie, skarmory, can all be mixed and matched to form an effective core that has plenty of use outside of just handling metagross, they can handle a good portion of the meta and can provide utility through hazard setting and removing. That is just for balance teams too, as has been discussed before offensive teams are not meant to have counters to everything, they can handle metagross by maintaining momentum and worse case scenario they can just sack something and revenge it because 110 is not THAT fast for an offensive team to handle. Then stall can get creative with metagross, but skarmory has been a staple for stall for literally generations and it is a perfectly good counter to metagross, just be sure to give it counter. I am sure stall has more counters but honestly even if skarmory was the only answer, I do not think making stall run skarmory is very unhealthy for the metagame.

The best argument I hear for ban is one I have used on mons in the past, "it is a combination of typing, speed, movepool, bulk, that make him broken" But I think the fact that he is kind of a jack of all trades master of none, is a healthy mon to have as the apex predator for the metagame if you will. The only way he limits teambuilding is by making sure that your team is not weak in one area, because he can cover all of them. Like greninja had too good of a movepool,ability,speed stat I think all three of those aspects of him were broken. Metagross has decent bulk, good speed, good movepool, decent typing, good ability all of them combined seem to only equal one of the best mons in the tier, I see nothing uncompetitive or overpowered in him. But yeah if I end up going for reqs later I will vote no ban.

 

[PresidentBubblebeam]

I am purely a stall player. I have no intention of using Mega Metagross nor have I ever used it at all. Banning it would mean a needless benefit to me as a player.
I highly discourage voting out of feelings. The metagame has no use for anger and hate. It needs truth, logic, and accurate decisions.

Metagross, being a Psychic type, generally has a flaw to the moves: Foul Play, Pursuit.
Sableye, Tyranitar, Mandibuzz, Bisharp, etc.

Will-o-wisp and scald are also very common moves in the OU environment.

Note: there is an unofficial trend of steel types being banned simply because of curiosity to suspect testing. I would not advise you to follow.

Don't Ban

Honestly, I can't think of a single Poke that can effectively pursuit trap megagross other than maybe Bisharp. But even then it's a bit shaky when it could just go straight for the hammer arm. Also, Tyranitar is no answer to megagross when it just gets outsped and utterly destroyed by hammer arm.

 

[WebBowser]

My primary issue with anti-ban arguments is that it feels like they are viewing him as a sweeper, he's not. He's more like Aegislash then he is like Lucario or Mega Maw. Like Mega Metagross, Aegislash is never going to sweep a competent team under any circumstances, he's too slow, doesn't hit hard enough, and has a large number of viable checks. Yet Aegislash was still broken, because he had a very easy time swapping in thanks to his typing and could dent virtually any switch in with his phenomenal STAB. This led to him putting tremendous pressure on the enemy team at virtually 0 risk to itself. Mega Meta is very similar, except that he doesn't have quite as good of a STAB move, but makes up for that with speed, allowing him to hit many of his swap ins twice before they get a chance to hit back. Also unlike Aegislash, he maintains his considerable bulk even while he's attacking, meaning he doesn't need to screw around with kings shield 50/50s (don't get me wrong, king's shield is a phenomenal move, but meta doesn't need it).

I think mmeta is similar enough to aegislash to warrant a ban.

 

[quagback2qc]

As mentioned above, there is no real way to pursuit trap, or use foul play on Megagross. However, Megagross does have a definite number of mons that can check it like Mega Slowbro, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, reg slowbro, defensive lando-t, hippo etc. In this case, Megagross suffers from 4MSS because it can't run coverage moves in order to get past all of these walls. For example, it can't run hammer arm, ice punch, grass knot, earthquake in addition to Meteor Mash, zen headbutt, and bullet punch if it desires priority. It is also, as mentioned above, checked by scald and will-o-wisp as well as t-wave, all of which reduce its ability to sweep. It isn't broken enough to deserve a ban yet.

 

[trillyntruly]

man, i think you're skewing the reality just a lil bit. you're right, greninja had an amazing movepool, ability, and speed stat. but metagross's bulk is decent? no it's fucking great. his speed is great too, it's no 'ninja, but the list of mons breaking 110 is not that high. i've always considered 110 to be the benchmark for insanely fucking fast, below that is fast, above that is holy shit, you got most of the meta beat. 110 is a great speed tier. his typing is more complicated. you have to look at it offensively and defensively. defensively, there are better ones sure, but steel is the best defensive typing without a doubt. his psychic typing generally just gives him more weaknesses but it does even out one of steel's weakness. he's got a really good defensive typing as a result of his steel type. offensively, he's no water/fightng but, i've said this before and i'll say it again, psychic/steel is fantastic neutral typing. he hits most things for neutral damage and that is good. that allows him to punch most things very hard with his stabs without really having to think and he has the coverage to hit what his stabs don't. his ability bolsters his already insane attack.

also, when greninja was being suspected, nobody was like "we can't ban greninja, he keeps megagross, that ridiculous powerhouse, in check by resisting his priority and bopping him with dark pulse!" but now it's "omg we can't ban megagross, diancie will murder!"

now, don't get me wrong, diancie might (read: will almost certainly) start running things with megagross gone, but i think it's clear which of them is easier to handle overall. diancie pretty much just dies to a bubblebeam, hits the same speed tier, and actually has a greater list of mons that can switch in on it due to it only having 2 primary coverage options outside of STAB. the difference here is unlike megagross who can demolish all of his switch-ins (barring some possible RU mons or something) with the right coverage move, diancie has actual real switch-ins that can come in reliably. i don't need a core to feel safe trying to cover diancie, and it seems like it's that way with pretty much every other threat. keldeo, sableye, diancie, altaria, zard, you name it, it has within OU a reliable switch-in. which mon is a reliable switch-in to megagross? and plz don't say SpDef slowbro again.

 

[Aberforth]

Lando-T, normal slowbro (only 2hkod by gk, so it can come in on anything else), Skarmory, suicune, gliscor, and scizor are all reliable switch ins, as well as ones that can switch in if he's not running hammer arm like ferrothorn. As for his bulk, it's base bulk is great, however with no investment and a - nature in one of the defenses needed if you're running grass knot, that bulk is not as good as it would look at a glance. And steel psychic isn't that great of an offensive typing anyway, it is walled by one type, forcing you to run one of earthquake or hammer arm, and is relatively bad vs a lot of water types such as slowbro, gyarados, and empoleon. He needs that coverage, and whatever coverage he does go for leaves him walled by other, very common mons.

Stop overhyping metagross, basically. It's a good mon, but it's not banworthy.

 

[trillyntruly]

except you neglected to consider all of the coverage moves at his disposal. i was specifically saying that in order to safely cover megagross you need to utilize a core because slowbro gets 2hkod by grass knot and lando/gliscor gets bopped by ice punch. skarm can lose to tpunch/hp fire sets (lol) and scizor (mega), the most reliable, also can get bopped by hp fire (lol). this is why people suggest using cores like lando/slowbro, because then you're essentially guaranteed safety. what other threat requires cores in order to guarantee a safe switch-in? none to my knowledge. every other threat has a mon that can come in with near impunity.

 

[TeamRocketWarehouse]

Couldn't access my old account. Turns out hotmail wiped out my previous e-mail so no more 2K+ post count for me.
Anyway, voting for ban. Noting beforehand so I can avoid obvious calcs. Yes, this thing can be easily checked.
Things people think counter but really don't

mSlowbro
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 240-284 (60.9 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
mSableye
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 192-226 (58 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 133-157 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 186-220 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Things in OU that do counter

84 Atk Mega Scizor Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 112-132 (37.2 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO(assuming they stay in)
252 SpA Rotom-H Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 338-398 (112.2 - 132.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Only two counters currently that don't become dead weight on the team. I've been involved in the metagame since the days of Shoddy. Relying on Burn, Toxic, and something like Whirlwind to save your team from something as unhealthy as this is poisonous to the metagame. ToxicStall and BurnStall should never be an option for countering something. Yes, this thing can be checked but then again, so was Aegislash, Greninja, mKangaskhan, mMawile, and so on so forth honestly. The check argument gets old real fast. I would love for this thing to stay in the metagame but sadly I don't think this can happen.

Does mMetagross benefit the metagame? To a degree, yes. It can check many Fairies and counter others as well. However, Heatran, Scizor, Magnezone, and such do the same as well. Does this Pokemon prevent others from being used? As much as other Pokemon in the current tier do to each other, yes. That is the natural order of things if I recall correctly. As said previously, mMetagross pretty much gives us the Greninja effect all over again. You don't know what set it's running. It can run over your team either way. Voting ban honestly.

EDIT: Noticed BB code has been done away with. The hell.
EDIT: For the sake of ruining the arguments of others
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 340-404 (96 - 114.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 136-160 (40.7 - 47.9%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
I honestly don't even know why I bothered listing Skarmory. It can't damage mMetagross to save its life.

0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 178-210 (44 - 51.9%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 248-292 (64.9 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Shame Landorus-T gets outsped, eh?
252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 238-280 (87.5 - 102.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 288-342 (71.4 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 212-250 (60.2 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 314-370 (74.7 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 182-216 (69.4 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Zebstrika]

except you neglected to consider all of the coverage moves at his disposal. i was specifically saying that in order to safely cover megagross you need to utilize a core because slowbro gets 2hkod by grass knot and lando/gliscor gets bopped by ice punch. skarm can lose to tpunch/hp fire sets (lol) and scizor (mega), the most reliable, also can get bopped by hp fire (lol). this is why people suggest using cores like lando/slowbro, because then you're essentially guaranteed safety. what other threat requires cores in order to guarantee a safe switch-in? none to my knowledge. every other threat has a mon that can come in with near impunity.

By your logic of having a coverage move for everything, then a lot of pokemon are uncounterable.

Hide

• Charizard is definitely uncounterable. Not even Mega Altaria can counter ALL charizard...Tough claws Iron Tail is a 2HKO. Yep, I can bring that up if you're gonna use HP Fire or Thunder Punch Metagross.
• Gengar is uncounterable, between its LO sets with all of the possible 4th move coverage, and its stall breaker sets
• Thundurus has no counters if you really want to get picky and go through all of its possible coverage moves and physical sets
• Mega Heracross has no hard counters and its SD + stabs + rock blast set alone has like 2 counters
• Mega Gardevoir has no counters, most of its conventional counters get beat by Calm Mind, Taunt, Shadow Ball, or Wisp
• Diggersby now has no counters since it got access to the elemental punches and knock off. (+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 309-367 (78.4 - 93.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)
• Kyurem-B still has no counters, since its LO set can theoretically run Outrage, Fusion Bolt, Ice Beam, Earth Power, Iron Head, or HP Fire with max Atk, SpA, or Speed
• Let's not forget Mew is uncounterable, for reasons that should be obvious.

Even pokemon that have hard counters usually have so few that it's impossible to make a team that comes anywhere close to hard countering the meta. You'll need a Mega Venusaur to counter Mega Altaria, and a Clefable to counter mega Gallade, and a Cresselia to counter Landorus-I, and a Kyurem-B to counter Manaphy, keep going and you'll soon realize you're out of team spots way before you've countered every pokemon. (Also, it would be impossible to beat a team that hard counters all 6 of your pokemon and has recovery, because there is literally no way for you to do more damage than they can heal if they keep switching to the hard counter of whatever pokemon you have out.)

It's not even like each individual Metagross set is broken, since like 15 OU pokemon and a bunch more lower tier pokemon can switch into a set that lacks one or two of Hammer Arm, Earthquake, Grass Knot, Ice Punch, HP Fire, or Thunder Punch. If you want to beat Metagross with a pair of pokemon, you have to make an entire third of your team from...

...oh, about a third of the metagame.

 

[NotSoClutch]

Couldn't access my old account. Turns out hotmail wiped out my previous e-mail so no more 2K+ post count for me.
Anyway, voting for ban. Noting beforehand so I can avoid obvious calcs. Yes, this thing can be easily checked.
Things people think counter but really don't

mSlowbro
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 240-284 (60.9 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
mSableye
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 192-226 (58 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 133-157 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 186-220 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Things in OU that do counter

84 Atk Mega Scizor Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 112-132 (37.2 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO(assuming they stay in)
252 SpA Rotom-H Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 338-398 (112.2 - 132.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Only two counters currently that don't become dead weight on the team. I've been involved in the metagame since the days of Shoddy. Relying on Burn, Toxic, and something like Whirlwind to save your team from something as unhealthy as this is poisonous to the metagame. ToxicStall and BurnStall should never be an option for countering something. Yes, this thing can be checked but then again, so was Aegislash, Greninja, mKangaskhan, mMawile, and so on so forth honestly. The check argument gets old real fast. I would love for this thing to stay in the metagame but sadly I don't think this can happen.

Does mMetagross benefit the metagame? To a degree, yes. It can check many Fairies and counter others as well. However, Heatran, Scizor, Magnezone, and such do the same as well. Does this Pokemon prevent others from being used? As much as other Pokemon in the current tier do to each other, yes. That is the natural order of things if I recall correctly. As said previously, mMetagross pretty much gives us the Greninja effect all over again. You don't know what set it's running. It can run over your team either way. Voting ban honestly.

EDIT: Noticed BB code has been done away with. The hell.
EDIT: For the sake of ruining the arguments of others
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 340-404 (96 - 114.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 136-160 (40.7 - 47.9%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
I honestly don't even know why I bothered listing Skarmory. It can't damage mMetagross to save its life.

0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 178-210 (44 - 51.9%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 248-292 (64.9 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Shame Landorus-T gets outsped, eh?
252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 238-280 (87.5 - 102.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 288-342 (71.4 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 212-250 (60.2 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 314-370 (74.7 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 182-216 (69.4 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Yep, you are right. Metagross can get by its common counters/checks, but out of curiosity, how many metagross do you see that run two moves of coverage? With options being thrown around like pursuit, rock polish, bullet punch, etc to go along with at least one STAB (and often times two), it's hard to imagine metagross really making much use of its wide range of low power coverage options. This is of course what we call 4MSS. Now this isn't always a bad thing, but in mega Metagross' case, it's kind of difficult to use even a small portion of the coverage options it really needs to broken. While theorymoning it's pretty easy to say "hey I'm going to use grass knot on my metagross," but in practice how many people really sacrifice hammer arm/EQ, zen Headbutt, ice punch/thunder punch/utility move for grass knot? Obviously some people do, but is it really a significant enough portion of people to really be frightened by something that rarely OHKOs the things it is specifically used for in the first place?

It could just be me, but this seems like a theorymon suspect based on the fact that a lot of people don't like the meta and just want the best Pokemon gone. I've met reqs, so expect at least one no ban vote.

 

[TeamRocketWarehouse]

By your logic of having a coverage move for everything, then a lot of pokemon are uncounterable.

Hide

• Charizard is definitely uncounterable. Not even Mega Altaria can counter ALL charizard...Tough claws Iron Tail is a 2HKO. Yep, I can bring that up if you're gonna use HP Fire or Thunder Punch Metagross.
• Gengar is uncounterable, between its LO sets with all of the possible 4th move coverage, and its stall breaker sets
• Thundurus has no counters if you really want to get picky and go through all of its possible coverage moves and physical sets
• Mega Heracross has no hard counters and its SD + stabs + rock blast set alone has like 2 counters
• Mega Gardevoir has no counters, most of its conventional counters get beat by Calm Mind, Taunt, Shadow Ball, or Wisp
• Diggersby now has no counters since it got access to the elemental punches and knock off. (+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 309-367 (78.4 - 93.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)
• Kyurem-B still has no counters, since its LO set can theoretically run Outrage, Fusion Bolt, Ice Beam, Earth Power, Iron Head, or HP Fire with max Atk, SpA, or Speed
• Let's not forget Mew is uncounterable, for reasons that should be obvious.

Even pokemon that have hard counters usually have so few that it's impossible to make a team that comes anywhere close to hard countering the meta. You'll need a Mega Venusaur to counter Mega Altaria, and a Clefable to counter mega Gallade, and a Cresselia to counter Landorus-I, and a Kyurem-B to counter Manaphy, keep going and you'll soon realize you're out of team spots way before you've countered every pokemon. (Also, it would be impossible to beat a team that hard counters all 6 of your pokemon and has recovery, because there is literally no way for you to do more damage than they can heal if they keep switching to the hard counter of whatever pokemon you have out.)

It's not even like each individual Metagross set is broken, since like 15 OU pokemon and a bunch more lower tier pokemon can switch into a set that lacks one of Hammer Arm, Earthquake, Grass Knot, Ice Punch, HP Fire, or Thunder Punch.

The problem is that all of those Pokemon lack the bulk that mMetagross has. Sure, they can kill left and right with the proper prediction but can they tank majority of the tier and function as a wallbreaker from hell? No.

 

[TeamRocketWarehouse]

Yep, you are right. Metagross can get by its common counters/checks, but out of curiosity, how many metagross do you see that run two moves of coverage? With options being thrown around like pursuit, rock polish, bullet punch, etc to go along with at least one STAB (and often times two), it's hard to imagine metagross really making much use of its wide range of low power coverage options. This is of course what we call 4MSS. Now this isn't always a bad thing, but in mega Metagross' case, it's kind of difficult to use even a small portion of the coverage options it really needs to broken. While theorymoning it's pretty easy to say "hey I'm going to use grass knot on my metagross," but in practice how many people really sacrifice hammer arm/EQ, zen Headbutt, ice punch/thunder punch/utility move for grass knot? Obviously some people do, but is it really a significant enough portion of people to really be frightened by something that rarely OHKOs the things it is specifically used for in the first place?

It could just be me, but this seems like a theorymon suspect based on the fact that a lot of people don't like the meta and just want the best Pokemon gone. I've met reqs, so expect at least one no ban vote.

Generalizing because of its similarity to Greninja. This is literally the Greninja problem all over again.
EDIT: Automerge really needs enabled.

 

[NotSoClutch]

Generalizing because of its similarity to Greninja. This is literally the Greninja problem all over again.

The difference is that Greninja's coverage was stab and that it had 0 hard counters. Even with mega metagross' movepool, AV slowbro, rocky helmet skarm, bulky starmie, cress, rocky helmet mew and so on are all able to hard counter it if running the right EVs etc. Not to mention that mega gross doesn't have the same speed tier that Greninja had. If every single Pokemon that couldn't be countered with normal team building were banned, we would have to get rid of things like Crawdaunt (cause it could have aerial ace for that Chesnaught you thought was a safe switch), Kyube (it could be banded or life orb or scarf or sub oh my), and don't get me started on Landorus-I...My point is, being able to get past common checks isn't something that necessarily makes something broken. Obviously Metagross has more bulk and speed than anything else I mentioned, but none of these things is particularly broken because of great coverage ffs.

 

[ShatteredSummers]

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 136-160 (40.7 - 47.9%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
I honestly don't even know why I bothered listing Skarmory. It can't damage mMetagross to save its life.

Now this makes me mad. Why are so many people saying that Skarm can't beat Mega Metagross? Counter Skarmory completely stops Mega Metagross.

 

[NotSoClutch]

Now this makes me mad. Why are so many people saying that Skarm can't beat Mega Metagross? Counter Skarmory completely stops Mega Metagross.

Counter skarm is a bit meh to be honest. Rocky helmet is what really gets to MegaGross. Not to mention that thunder punch can't even break skarm XD

 

[TeamRocketWarehouse]

Now this makes me mad. Why are so many people saying that Skarm can't beat Mega Metagross? Counter Skarmory completely stops Mega Metagross.

Skarmory prolongs the problem.

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

Besides, if you run Thund Punch for just Skarm (Who can be stopped by Magnezone cores) Then you are losing out on so many things. You are basically checked by any Bulky water type bar MDos. In fact, you still will be fucked because Counter Skarm shits on the idea of TPunch, being 3HKOed by it and nearly OHKOing it back.

Thunder Punch is an inferior move that makes MMeta walled by so much shit. GK is easily its best move of use.

 

[FrocoTerra]

The difference is that Greninja's coverage was stab and that it had 0 hard counters. Even with mega metagross' movepool, AV slowbro, rocky helmet skarm, bulky starmie, cress, rocky helmet mew and so on are all able to hard counter it if running the right EVs etc. Not to mention that mega gross doesn't have the same speed tier that Greninja had. If every single Pokemon that couldn't be countered with normal team building were banned, we would have to get rid of things like Crawdaunt (cause it could have aerial ace for that Chesnaught you thought was a safe switch), Kyube (it could be banded or life orb or scarf or sub oh my), and don't get me started on Landorus-I...My point is, being able to get past common checks isn't something that necessarily makes something broken. Obviously Metagross has more bulk and speed than anything else I mentioned, but none of these things is particularly broken because of great coverage ffs.

Greninja also didn't have almost anything near the bulk MegaGross has. MegaGross has higher defensive stats in all 3 stats than Skarmory. That's insane. Uninvested, it takes STAB super effective EQs from 252 Atk Garchomp. How is that fair, for an offensive Pokemon, to not be KOd from that? Not to mention, AV Slowbro is incredible overcentralization as it's not a good set, Meteor Mash is over 50% chance to 2HKO Mew after rocks, Rocky Helmet Skarm is worn down from Hammer Arms and can't stall it out with Roost so is forced to run Counter which is not the best move on it. The other Pokemon you mentioned have glaring flaws like weaknesses to rocks, poor bulk, quad weakness to Ice Shard and not very good speed tiers. MegaGross is in a league of its own and definitely deserves a ban

 

[TeamRocketWarehouse]

I'm curious as to how defensive Starmie counters.
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 180-214 (55.5 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 136-160 (41.9 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
The bulky Starmie that isn't even used
4 SpA Analytic Starmie Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 103-123 (34.2 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Sure you could run AV but that's going even further into having a specific counter that just shows how badly you have to centralize.

 

[Karxrida]

Greninja also didn't have almost anything near the bulk MegaGross has. MegaGross has higher defensive stats in all 3 stats than Skarmory. That's insane. Uninvested, it takes STAB super effective EQs from 252 Atk Garchomp. How is that fair, for an offensive Pokemon, to not be KOd from that? Not to mention, AV Slowbro is incredible overcentralization as it's not a good set, Meteor Mash is over 50% chance to 2HKO Mew after rocks, Rocky Helmet Skarm is worn down from Hammer Arms and can't stall it out with Roost so is forced to run Counter which is not the best move on it. The other Pokemon you mentioned have glaring flaws like weaknesses to rocks, poor bulk, quad weakness to Ice Shard and not very good speed tiers. MegaGross is in a league of its own and definitely deserves a ban

Just wanted to say AV Slowbro/Slowking and Counter Skarmory were things before Mega Metagross even existed and iirc Skarm actually ran Counter more than Brave Bird in late XY; the fact they're also legit sets that have uses outside of dealing with Metagross doesn't point to overcentralization. Also, Gross' bulk is counter-balanced by its lack of recovery so it gets worn down into revenge range really quickly, as WhiteQueen mentioned before.

 

[NotSoClutch]

Greninja also didn't have almost anything near the bulk MegaGross has. MegaGross has higher defensive stats in all 3 stats than Skarmory. That's insane. Uninvested, it takes STAB super effective EQs from 252 Atk Garchomp. How is that fair, for an offensive Pokemon, to not be KOd from that? Not to mention, AV Slowbro is incredible overcentralization as it's not a good set, Meteor Mash is over 50% chance to 2HKO Mew after rocks, Rocky Helmet Skarm is worn down from Hammer Arms and can't stall it out with Roost so is forced to run Counter which is not the best move on it. The other Pokemon you mentioned have glaring flaws like weaknesses to rocks, poor bulk, quad weakness to Ice Shard and not very good speed tiers. MegaGross is in a league of its own and definitely deserves a ban

If AV Slowbro is a terrible set, then why did I see it 3 times on the mid to upper part of suspect test ladder WITHOUT MEGA METAGROSS? You are right rocky Helmet skarm is eventually worn down by mega metagross hammer arms but before metagross out slows skarm it does this

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 90-106 (26.9 - 31.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Not exactly the greatest way to beat a skarmory if we are being honest here. AND this is assuming hammer arm metagross, no counter on skarm, and that the skarm user doesn't just switch to an offensive check after mega Metagross is laughably slow from hammer arm. Yes, you are right, I shouldn't have named skarm as a full on counter, but it's not like skarm's matchup is unfavorable with any mega Metagross set. I'm actually surprised about the mew thing though in all honesty.

 

[Jaguar360]

Before someone says it, I'm going to reiterate that Hammer Arm Mega Metagross does not beat Counter Skamory either. As long as Skarm has 63.5% of its health or 214 HP left, it can live two Hammer Arms and Counter both to beat it. The scenario plays out like this (assuming all max damage rolls and Skarm has no Leftovers):
Turn 1 - Skarmory switches in and has 63.5% of its HP/214 HP
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 90-106 (26.9 - 31.7%) -- 36.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery (Skamory is at 108 HP)
Skamory Roosts.
Metagross: 301/301 Skamory: 275/334

Turn 2
Another Hammer Arm. (Skarmory is at 169 HP)
Skamory Counters.
Metagross: 89/301 Skarmory: 169 HP

Turn 3
Metagross is at -2 speed, making it slower than Skarmory, but another Counter will kill anyway so that doesn't matter.
Metagross Hammer Arms once more (Skamory is at 53 HP)
Skarmory Counters and slays Mega Meta.

Fin.

Skamory also wins if it decides to Roost on turn 2 and Counter on turns 3 and 4.

So usually, it won't have to take the super effective Hammer Arm after Roost and can just Counter through the steel spider.

Verdict: Counter Skarm is a counter and it's not the only one.

 

[astroshagger]

I'm seeing a whole lot of arguments here derived solely from theoretical standpoints and hypothetical situations. Damage calculations are important but the most vital aspect of the entire process is the suspect ladder and the resultant game climate. Arguing when you're only looking at things in a vacuum is a lazy practice that doesn't stand to prove anything at all. IMO the best discussions here are going to come from our collective experiences on the ladder, not calculators.

In my experience the suspect ladder feels even more centralized than before. It seems like there has been a slow and steady decline in overall team diversity and play style. However, this could just be a fad induced by a sudden change in the game. I don't necessarily believe that Metagross is the thread keeping the whole thing together and I won't even bother trying to argue some twisted point about how Diancie, Sableye and Gross somehow "balance it all out" , but this meta certainly doesn't feel anymore diverse than before.

 

[astroshagger]

Theoretical standpoints are common to see in suspect tests. Greninja was a good example as was Aegislash.

I realize that. But if someone actually wants to make a point they need to bring more to the table other than "Possible 3HKO w/ Lefties & SR blah blah". Like I stated, theory and calculations are important.. to a certain extent. The problem is they don't usually carry any context with them and therefore don't always accurately reflect whats actually going on in the ladder.