Does your post mean "I've seen poeple that I know by their name saying something and I'm following them"?
Because if Remedy's post isnt as bad as last Mob Barley's post, it doesn't show any solid argument.
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np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - Spider Man [Metagrossite remains OU]
- Thread starter haunter
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Because if Remedy's post isnt as bad as last Mob Barley's post, it doesn't show any solid argument.
I actually disagree with your arguments here. HO hates Mega Gross more than anything because of how difficult it is to take down for such an offensive Pokemon. Sure, they lost a solid check to Lopunny, but they also lost another major threat to HO as well. Mega Altaria and Diancie are not impossible for us to adapt to. There was a small period of time after the Aegislash ban where everybody thought Mega Heracross, Medicham, and Gardevoir were going to destroy everything in sight, and might have to be banned; yet, the metagame adapted to these threats as well, and not a single one of those three are banned or are even banworthy. A Mega Sableye-centralized metagame is a pain in the neck to deal with because of how annoying it can be for an offensive team to have to prepare for Mega Sableye; Pokemon like Terrakion and Mamoswine are not as good leads as they were for HO just because of Mega Sableye, sets like SubCM Keldeo and SubDD M-Gyarados become staples because they can set up on Mega Sableye, etc. Meanwhile, Mega Altaria and Mega Diancie, while annoying for HO, have more crippling flaws than Mega Sableye that makes them easier to deal with.
SketchUp
Don't let your memes be dreams
Luckstard. Instead of bashing on people because they have a different opinion on the suspect test, you might try to give solid reasons why you think Mega Metagross doesn't need to be banned and not saying nonsense arguments like fairy domination and how fairies do not threaten stall (mega gardevoir, clefable?)
Luckstard kind of has an ego, doesn't seem to really bring a solid counter argument as to why a metagame without metagross isn't as balanced, but hey let him be pissy idc
Yeah, had to look that up. Honestly might have changed my vote if Metagross really got fire punch.
On another note, I will admit that the team building part of the metagame is a lot easier with metagross gone. Personally I like taking a lot of time to dissect the metagame and take pride in a well made team, but I could definitely see this as being a positive for a lot of people as team building isn't everyone's bread and butter. Honestly though, I don't think the metagame got all that much better. Balance and HO lost mega metagross while also no longer having to worry about it, stall is a little bit more varied now, but has to worry more about Altaria and Diancie. Really the only thing that changed is the focus of the metagame shifting around just a bit.
It was my point.
It's true, and it's true for every metagame assuming you are not talking about an obviously broken mon like Salamence wes. Offensive team have other answers to Metagross-Mega, Manectric is pretty good for example, a standard scarf lando-t + manec volt turn core, you add a bisharp and you have half your team able to check Metagross / prevent him from coming on the field without any restriction (Bisharp isnt here just to check Metagross, and you were building on a classic volt turn core).
For mega Sableye you have other possibility, Lopunny is good in HO teams, it checks perfectly Sableye (we are not talking about the volturn team previously mentionned). a lum berry sharp is able to set up on Sableye an threaten him etc.
So yeah, your point is good.
As I said, Sableye is played in stall teams, everyone hates facing stall teams because it's boring. Stalls are just viable in the current meta.
RichieTheGarchomp
Banned deucer.
I really forgot who said something about Spikes and how it basically shits on MMeta, but seriously it doesnt matter if its barely 2HKO'ed; Spikes are common and so are Rocks. Dont say it resists rocks, I know, but you're implying its not switching in more than once in an entire game.
Bulk means nothing to MMeta if Spikes are up.
Bulk means nothing to MMeta if Spikes are up.
Fairies were big in the meta anyway, the reason they're everywhere is the plain reaction "OMG steel gone fairy spam now", even though M.Alt could break MMeta with a +1 EQ and Diancie could stop MMeta switching in with earth power, although that was a 50/50 and random bullet punch variants (which are nearly as bad as HP Fire variants) don't even rely on a 50/50. Another reason they rose in usage is the mega slot having less competition with Meta gone.
MMeta wasn't even a good fairy check outside of HO, it takes way too much damage from M.Voir and Sylveon to switch in twice (even then Sylveon has shadow ball), as it ends up on around 5-10% IIRC without factoring rocks, M.Alt wins it at +1 and it relies on a 50/50 for Diancie. Fairies rising is an initial reaction to a steel going, despite the fact it can only switch in once.
meh, maybe i was misunderstood, what i meant is the solid data is in the previous 25 pages, and the 2 posts i mentioned were just notable, simple as that. i dont know anyone yet
cheers.
I edited my 1st point to your attention saying that Fairies were dominating the metagame at first look and the metagame will just be full of balanced team without Metagross which is far from being an healthier metagame. But yeah, it might just be my ego...
Edit : Read that post too SketchUp and i'm not bashing poeple, i'm just saying they are not bringing good points to the discussion and have bad thoughts process in order to ban Metagrossite.
I am not arguing that everybody hates stall teams because they are boring. Mega Sableye is essentially what makes stall threatening; stall was previously passive and incredibly easy to take advantage. Mega Sableye fixes the passiveness, but also is centralizing to the point where many sets that HO would like to run, such as SR Terrakion and SR Mamoswine, are almost completely unviable due to the threat of Mega Sableye.
Also, Mega Lopunny cannot switch into Mega Sableye, and neither can Lum Berry Bisharp, as Mega Lopunny will get burned, and Lum Berry Bisharp needs to come in when a teammate has died in order to be able to set up on Mega Sableye, otherwise it will use its Lum Berry on the switch and will be burned as it sets up a Swords Dance. In addition, while a Mega Manectric + Lando-T is not a bad core, realistically speaking, not every team can fit in that core just to check Mega Gross. Scarf Lando-T is beyond its peaking point, as people begin to realize that Scarf Landorus-T has massive issues with prediction and how easy it is to wear down.
But it's still why Sableye is annoying.
since Sableye has a lack of passive recovery, you can also switch on a predicted Recover. You are not always switching into Wil-o-Wisp. It's up to preditcion anyway.
I was talking about a standard core who is effective in the current metagame. There is other possibilities (even if it's harder since Greninja is gone) but I don't think it's too hard for an offensive team to check/prevent Metagross from coming on the field safely.
Hammer Arm exists on Mega Gross. Sure, there is Iron Barbs, but Ferro still hates Hammer Arm. ALso, just because Mega Gross lacks a Fire =/= not broken. Your argument does not hold up here, and it would certainly would not hold up if Mega Gross had like, base 200 Attack and base 150 Speed, where its points of conflict would be even greater.
The conversation seems to have transitioned somewhat from "omg Megagross is GOD! BAN IT!" To mildly towards the unbroken side of the spectrum. I'd agree with this, but the biggest reason I'd see for banning it is how incredibly centralizing it has become. The fact that things like counter skarmory, arcanine, etc. have seen usage is honestly kinda ridiculous. I would also like to say that I am pretty anti-banin general, so I am not suggesting that it definitely should or shouldn't be given the boot, I just think this is really important to consider.
I for one don't really like to play a meta where everything is super centralized, and this has certainly been occurring with Megagross in town. There's been LOTS of scarf lando t and LOTS of Megagross (I could see the former losing some popularity with Megagross gone as well).
Long story short: I think the absence of the TIE fighter could likely help to balance the meta- I don't think it's broken.
I for one don't really like to play a meta where everything is super centralized, and this has certainly been occurring with Megagross in town. There's been LOTS of scarf lando t and LOTS of Megagross (I could see the former losing some popularity with Megagross gone as well).
Long story short: I think the absence of the TIE fighter could likely help to balance the meta- I don't think it's broken.
I'm almost at reqs (I don't get to ladder much, so I haven't played many games) but my impression is that Mega Diancie and Altaria got so much better because of Metagross' removal not because Metagross countered it but because it was a steel type that beat Magnezone.
The Magnezone-Diancie core (or Altaria-Magnezone core) is incredibly good now because Magnezone can now trap more steel types very easily. Heatran is essentially the only one now who can beat Magnezone and both Diancie and Altaria can run ground type attacks that annihilate it. Scizor? It ain't doing much to Magnezone, who can return HP Fire to murder it. For Diancie and Altaria it even does a good job of beating water types that threaten Diancie or Fairies that threaten Altaria. The megas themselves are very good, but not broken. Adding Magnezone into the mix lets them sweep much easier.
MegaGross is either broken or not, there's no middle ground of it being kinda broken or not really broken. If it is broken (which I have my doubts on) then it should be banned. Period. If it is not broken, which some of the pro-ban people have said (along the lines of it being top tier with no reason not to use it, but it's not traditionally broken) then should it really be banned? Personally that doesn't sit right with me at all.
If you think it's not broken but still want it banned, then what's the reasoning? What I've heard boils down to "the tier has too many threats, Metagross is really good and we need to get rid of things, so let's get rid of Metagross" either in implication or being outright stated. Is that really the direction we want to go? Reduce the tier until everything is manageable? Let's rephrase the argument.
"There are too many Pokemon in OU, so nobody should play it and instead play UU where there are less powerful things that can win games."
While this is an exaggeration (and if you quote that without my acknowledgement that I realize it's not what you're proposing then screw you) it's a form of the argument. Answer this question, pro-banners who believe Metagross isn't broken per se. What if banning Mega Metagross does jack for making games less matchup reliant, or actually makes things worse? Do we continue to ban until weban everything but Donphan get to a stable metagame, regardless of the fact that that may require banning non-broken mons? Is that the sort of precedent we want to set?
Next gen when we'll certainly get a whole number of new Pokemon and the matchup issues continue to intensify should we follow Gen VI's model and ban top threats until it's manageable? It almost sounds reasonable, and that scares me.
The other argument for banning despite non-brokenness is that MegaGross is overcentralizing. I disagree with this entirely, as Mega Metagross hasn't wrapped the tier around its four/eight massive claws. In addition to the cost of Mega Metagross, the Mega Slot, it was nowhere near number one on the usage listings. Determining if MegaGross is overcentralizing is difficult with the suspect ladder's setup, as we can't really see if MegaGross is everywhere, but we can see if its counters/checks suddenly vanished. Are you noticing a sudden lack of things that beat MegaGross on the suspect ladder? I haven't, but then again I could also just be lucky. If the counters to MegaGross dropped in usage drastically, then you can make an objective argument that Mega Metagross overcentralized the tier.
The Magnezone-Diancie core (or Altaria-Magnezone core) is incredibly good now because Magnezone can now trap more steel types very easily. Heatran is essentially the only one now who can beat Magnezone and both Diancie and Altaria can run ground type attacks that annihilate it. Scizor? It ain't doing much to Magnezone, who can return HP Fire to murder it. For Diancie and Altaria it even does a good job of beating water types that threaten Diancie or Fairies that threaten Altaria. The megas themselves are very good, but not broken. Adding Magnezone into the mix lets them sweep much easier.
MegaGross is either broken or not, there's no middle ground of it being kinda broken or not really broken. If it is broken (which I have my doubts on) then it should be banned. Period. If it is not broken, which some of the pro-ban people have said (along the lines of it being top tier with no reason not to use it, but it's not traditionally broken) then should it really be banned? Personally that doesn't sit right with me at all.
If you think it's not broken but still want it banned, then what's the reasoning? What I've heard boils down to "the tier has too many threats, Metagross is really good and we need to get rid of things, so let's get rid of Metagross" either in implication or being outright stated. Is that really the direction we want to go? Reduce the tier until everything is manageable? Let's rephrase the argument.
"There are too many Pokemon in OU, so nobody should play it and instead play UU where there are less powerful things that can win games."
While this is an exaggeration (and if you quote that without my acknowledgement that I realize it's not what you're proposing then screw you) it's a form of the argument. Answer this question, pro-banners who believe Metagross isn't broken per se. What if banning Mega Metagross does jack for making games less matchup reliant, or actually makes things worse? Do we continue to ban until we
Next gen when we'll certainly get a whole number of new Pokemon and the matchup issues continue to intensify should we follow Gen VI's model and ban top threats until it's manageable? It almost sounds reasonable, and that scares me.
The other argument for banning despite non-brokenness is that MegaGross is overcentralizing. I disagree with this entirely, as Mega Metagross hasn't wrapped the tier around its four/eight massive claws. In addition to the cost of Mega Metagross, the Mega Slot, it was nowhere near number one on the usage listings. Determining if MegaGross is overcentralizing is difficult with the suspect ladder's setup, as we can't really see if MegaGross is everywhere, but we can see if its counters/checks suddenly vanished. Are you noticing a sudden lack of things that beat MegaGross on the suspect ladder? I haven't, but then again I could also just be lucky. If the counters to MegaGross dropped in usage drastically, then you can make an objective argument that Mega Metagross overcentralized the tier.
RichieTheGarchomp
Banned deucer.
Just quoting my nig Jaguar360 because this post keeps getting unseen due to it being on Page 5.
MMeta has a great amount of checks and counters, most common and viable. I'm surprised at how many "pros" are actually voting ban for this dude, following up with the most biased comments ever. Hes strong, yes. Hes bulky, yes. No recovery? That sucks. Around 20 checks and counters? Oh. Jesus Christ guys. Imma go start to get req's now before i bitch too much that i forget about it.
I love how some of these pro-ban arguments say that he is too bulky to reliably check (ignoring the numerous, numerous checks listed throughout this thread), yet also somehow isn't bulky enough to check fairies so his presence isn't relevant in that sense. Also loving how the "broken checking broken" sound bites are completely ignoring the fact that the strongest pro-ban arguments in the thread imply that he isn't broken in the first place. Note that it's definitely not a good argument, but a lot of people in here are claiming Metagross is a balancing force akin to Lando-T, which is very different from "broken checking broken". Also, please don't list his base stats as a sole point of argument, as they mean nothing without context. Come on guys, I thought we weren't supposed to look at things in a vacuum.
I'm all for intelligent discussion, but it seems like a lot of people are just ignoring prior information instead of building upon it to create a clearer, more accurate depiction of the situation at hand. And that's on both sides of the argument honestly.
I'm all for intelligent discussion, but it seems like a lot of people are just ignoring prior information instead of building upon it to create a clearer, more accurate depiction of the situation at hand. And that's on both sides of the argument honestly.
Bisharp, Charizard, Excadrill, Garchomp, Gengar (speed tie but whatever), Gliscor, Gyarados, Heatran, Landorus, Landous-T, Mandibuzz, Manectric, Mew, Rotom, Sableye, Scizor, Skarmory, Slowbro, Talonflame, Victini, Volcarona.
How is it that a mon that loses to all these mons in 1v1 scenarios (because they are not always switching in and being bopped by the perfect coverage move, nor are ocks guaranteed to stay up) broken? I addressed cores being able to handle it on all playstyles, I addressed metagame overcentralisation, which it doesn't do, and it loses to 21 mons out of 65 that are strictly OU with the common set. And if you give it ice punch or earthquake instead of something like hammer arm, things I left off like ferrothorn wall it for days, and this list doesn't even include stuff from lower tiers than BL.
It feels like people want it gone because they dont like the metagame, not because it deserves to go. It is not overpowered, it is not overcentralising and it is not banworthy.
EDIT: Also, I find this metagame without it unhealthier. Sableye took a massive drop in viability, and now stall is screwed a lot more. I find balanced metagames to be ones where every playstyle is viable, and stall has had a huge dump taken on its viability.
How is it that a mon that loses to all these mons in 1v1 scenarios (because they are not always switching in and being bopped by the perfect coverage move, nor are ocks guaranteed to stay up) broken? I addressed cores being able to handle it on all playstyles, I addressed metagame overcentralisation, which it doesn't do, and it loses to 21 mons out of 65 that are strictly OU with the common set. And if you give it ice punch or earthquake instead of something like hammer arm, things I left off like ferrothorn wall it for days, and this list doesn't even include stuff from lower tiers than BL.
It feels like people want it gone because they dont like the metagame, not because it deserves to go. It is not overpowered, it is not overcentralising and it is not banworthy.
EDIT: Also, I find this metagame without it unhealthier. Sableye took a massive drop in viability, and now stall is screwed a lot more. I find balanced metagames to be ones where every playstyle is viable, and stall has had a huge dump taken on its viability.
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jpw234
Catastrophic Event Specialist
I'm not sure what is with the consensus that stall is unviable in the post-Metagross metagame? Metagross is handleable for stall but it is kind of a pain to deal with, so having it gone is kinda nice for stall. The new fairies are really not all that scary...I mean Diancie is for the most part worse against stall than Mega-Gardevoir which we've been dealing with for months now, given it doesn't get WoW and almost never runs Psyshock, so the standard bulky steels like SpD Jirachi/Bronzong etc. still do fine against it. I have seen an uptick in Kyu-B usage, which is annoying, but by no means does it make stall unviable. You guys should try megas other than Sableye on your stall teams because using stuff like Venusaur, Scizor, Altaria makes some of the "problems" you guys are talking about much easier to handle, although I think Sableye is probably still fine.
blinkie
¯\_( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)_/¯ dank meme crew
Also to everyone who says MegaGross is too restrictive on teambuilding and there are too many threats in OU already, there isn't a "perfect team" that would have a reliable answer to everything. Sometimes you just have to play around stuff, and in ORAS a better built team is one that doesn't get run over by common threats. If you have a decent answer to Mega Diancie, its ok if you sometimes get run over by say Mega Glalie. Banning Megagross won't solve the problems, as many people already stated, fairies will run over everything and as a result stall will be dead, just like post Aegi. There are more than enough reliable answers to MegaGross, and if you have one and take care not to mess up and let it die, you can constantly check Megagross with good prediction. Even if it can break through, it can be revenged by many scarfers, as without recovery, every time it gets hurt the damage is permanent, meaning its good bulk and being able to tank Bisharp sucker punch is irrelevant after it switches in on something like Scizor bullet punch. Without a Fire-type move, MegaGross can't hurt Scizor without Meteor Mash boosts, and it has to be careful when Ferrothorn comes in because if it Hammer Arms on the wrong mon, it just has to switch out again.
As most people have stated already, there are numerous solid checks and less solid checks(which you can still fit in). Its not like you have to start running Doublade all of a sudden in order to check MegaGross, as there are a ton of OU viable mons that can be a reliable answer to him.
As most people have stated already, there are numerous solid checks and less solid checks(which you can still fit in). Its not like you have to start running Doublade all of a sudden in order to check MegaGross, as there are a ton of OU viable mons that can be a reliable answer to him.
This is exactly what I was talking about earlier. I keep seeing more people hinting at this reasoning. I want to try to break down this whole phenomenon, the reason why people can start to think this way and why it's dangerous. Because I am strongly of the opinion that this is a terrible way to rationalize banning decisions and not the mind set to use when judging a suspect in isolation. And I want more people to at least put some more critical thought into whether or not this is actually a good approach and hopefully let that weigh in on their thoughts towards Mega Metagross.
We start with the issue.
There are Too Many Threats/ The Metagame is too Match-up Based. This is happening for 2 reasons (although one is significantly bigger than the other)
1) The first is the established concept that there are increasingly more threats to prepare for every new set of Pokemon yet we are limited to the same number of "slots" to prepare for them. While this does add to the match-up issue I consider this a much more minor culprit because GF gives half a fart about balancing their new Pokemon and the Power Creep is so real you can taste, touch, smell, and feel it. While we do get more things we have to prepare for each gen we also get more things that invalidate old things. Each gen is also bringing us things that "prepare us" more efficiently and as a result OU's size doesn't grow proportionally to the rate of the Pokedex. Roughly as much drops out of OU each gen as is added to it (albeit a little bit less drops out).
2) The second issue is Megas. Megas are the biggest culprit imo. I haven't seen this posted before but maybe it's already well understood? The main mechanic to Mega Pokemon (the limit of 1 per team) is basically designed to exacerbate match-up issues. Within reason #1 every new Pokemon that is a "threat" you have to prepare for each gen is also a "tool" you can utilize for preparation, and this helps keep the total number of threats in more of a checked state as new threats are allowed to invalidate old ones. On the other hand, with megas, Every Single New Mega Pokemon added to the game means one more Pokemon you have to prepare for but that you yourself can't use in your preparation. This means you can't rely on megas to deal with megas. And this is, as far as I'm concerned, the main driving factor in "threat increase." As many of our new threats are allowed to be viable and dangerous but are not allowed to invalidate each other.
Imo this is THE big thing the community should keep and eye on and contemplate when match-up issues get even worse in the future.... >>
Next we talk about why the reasoning seems good at first
I think the mentality that there are too many threats so we should ban some of them sounds good for a few reasons.
The first is that there's seemingly no good alternative solution. We want to disturb the initial game as little as possible and aside from directly limiting the number of threats with bans there aren't really any options that don't involve creating our own complex rules or tampering with the rules given to us (at least no options I've thought of)
Second there's no large campaign or conscious effort to correct the "too many threats" issue. Most of the work and decision making being done to alter the metagame right now is just suspects and bans for pokemon that may be broken. and so if you want to try and solve this problem your only outlet is to use bans as a way to do so, and or to let it influence your ban decisions. This is backed up by usually correct idea that we can ban broken element until the metagame is desirable.
Lastly one method of determining and isolated suspect's potential label as "broken" is to evaluate it's impact on the metagame. So when you look at any given threat in this context it becomes apparent that the metagame is more desirable without it.
Finally we discuss why this reasoning is bad and shouldn't influence the individual suspect
Ok this is the most important part.
I think the best way to help some realize this is to ask: Are these issues Mega Metagross's fault?
Or to phrase it alternatively: If the metagame has too many threats, why is that the fault of one specific threat among them all?
To both questions the answer is: "It's not."
The reasoning that the metagame is more desirable without Threat X because of less threats, is reasoning that can be applied to Litterally any threat in the current metagame. to take that a step further "too Many threats" is not symptom of Mega Metagross, and therefore not of any consequence with regard to whether or not mega metagross is broken. It's equal parts a symptom of everyone.
Take a look at pre-Greninja-ban world. The same metagame with one more threat in it but no one can argue that the metagame is corrected by removing something other than Greninja. Why? because Greninja itself is broken and causing the negative effects. On the contrary if Mega metagross isn't broken (the debate to be had) then there are plenty of alternative ways to correct the metagame without banning it. For instance banning an alternative threat. You can argue that Metagross is the "biggest' threat but that doesn't meaning removing it results in the "best" metagame. This is because "best" is subjective to what you find fun. With Greninja there's one clear cut path to the best metagame because Greninja is broken. However if "too many threats" is the decisive reason that changes you from no ban to ban then you're being subjective. We could ban any number of random threats and still end up with a metagame that is desirable. And the only reason that metagame would be "better" than one where we banned Mega Metagross is if you valued it more subjectively. And then the same in reverse. Which wraps back aorund to the original question. Why this one specific threat among them all? Why Mega Metagross? Why not any other threat? Your answer to this question is either "mega Metagross is broken" or your answer is "my reasons are subjective"
To wrap this up
When we look at mega Metagross the suspect we are here to determine if it is out of balance with the metagame NOT if it's one of many threats that combined contribute to a separate issue. I personally think it would be interesting to see more campaigns to tackle those issues but I don't agree with anyone who brings that reasoning into a decision on whether or not an individual Pokemon is broken. You shouldn't be able to say "meh it's not broken but it is really strong and i don't like how many not broken things there are..."
So I'm going to chime in real quick because I've been seeing a ton of players making arguments that go along the lines of "MMeta is not broken, but it is overcentralizing, therefore let's ban it", this includes some very respectable players like McMeghan , Reymedy and Mob Barley . This is a terrible way to go about banning things because you can say the same thing for any good mon, and the anti-ban folks have no difficulty in pointing this out. The issue is that MMeta is not broken under our current standards of brokenness (which primarily rely on the "3 characteristics" described in the OP of this topic).
I am a firm believer in only banning what is broken, however I have also supported every ban made so far. I think that the best previous suspect to compare Mega Metagross to is not Greninja but to Aegislash, as meta and aegis have far more similarities then gren and meta do. Aegislash was well known as a tanky bruiser who found numerous swap in opportunities due to his amazing bulk and typing and could bop potential swap ins really hard (but usually not OHKO) with his signature STAB move. This sentence applies pretty much word for word to Mega Metagross. Like Mega Metagross, Aegislash had numerous checks thanks to his common weaknesses and had longevity issues due to lack of reliable recovery (he doesn't even get pain split), but was able to circumvent some (but never all) of his common swap ins using various non-standard coverage options and lure sets. However, despite these weaknesses compounded with Aegislash's horrible speed tier (which is not a problem for metagross), Aegislash was still banned. The primary arguments for aegis' banning were very similar to ban arguments on this very suspect thread, that he was overcentralizing and "unhealthy" for the meta. Relatively few people claimed him to be broken.
While I dislike the reasons given for banning Aegislash, and by extension most of the pro-ban arguments made in this suspect, I still believe that both Aegislash and Mega Metagross are in fact broken and therefore deserve to be banned. I explained this reasoning in length in a previous post but essentially the reason why they were both broken is that they had a combination of bulk and power that allowed them to consistently deal out far more damage then they take during any given matchup, regardless of the opponent's team composition or gameplay. For mons who can find a swap in against virtually every team, no matter how well built, these two exert far too much offensive presence and forced the opponent to rely on shaky checks who were either only capable of swapping in once (if at all) or could be ohko'd by a surprise coverage move.
Therefore, I am pro-ban
My original post on the subject: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...und-2-spider-man.3529407/page-18#post-6046970
Post that inspired the above post: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/portrait-of-an-uber.43566/#post-1368926
I am a firm believer in only banning what is broken, however I have also supported every ban made so far. I think that the best previous suspect to compare Mega Metagross to is not Greninja but to Aegislash, as meta and aegis have far more similarities then gren and meta do. Aegislash was well known as a tanky bruiser who found numerous swap in opportunities due to his amazing bulk and typing and could bop potential swap ins really hard (but usually not OHKO) with his signature STAB move. This sentence applies pretty much word for word to Mega Metagross. Like Mega Metagross, Aegislash had numerous checks thanks to his common weaknesses and had longevity issues due to lack of reliable recovery (he doesn't even get pain split), but was able to circumvent some (but never all) of his common swap ins using various non-standard coverage options and lure sets. However, despite these weaknesses compounded with Aegislash's horrible speed tier (which is not a problem for metagross), Aegislash was still banned. The primary arguments for aegis' banning were very similar to ban arguments on this very suspect thread, that he was overcentralizing and "unhealthy" for the meta. Relatively few people claimed him to be broken.
While I dislike the reasons given for banning Aegislash, and by extension most of the pro-ban arguments made in this suspect, I still believe that both Aegislash and Mega Metagross are in fact broken and therefore deserve to be banned. I explained this reasoning in length in a previous post but essentially the reason why they were both broken is that they had a combination of bulk and power that allowed them to consistently deal out far more damage then they take during any given matchup, regardless of the opponent's team composition or gameplay. For mons who can find a swap in against virtually every team, no matter how well built, these two exert far too much offensive presence and forced the opponent to rely on shaky checks who were either only capable of swapping in once (if at all) or could be ohko'd by a surprise coverage move.
Therefore, I am pro-ban
My original post on the subject: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...und-2-spider-man.3529407/page-18#post-6046970
Post that inspired the above post: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/portrait-of-an-uber.43566/#post-1368926
I think the most obvious counterargument is to argue that Mega Metagross is not as centralizing as Aegislash. I mean, OU is not kowtowing to MegaGross like it did Aegislash. Aegislash dictated almost the entire teambuilding process, whereas Mega Gross is nowhere near as centralizing.
Yeah. If Mega Metagross is so centralizing, then I'd like to see which otherwise bad Pokemon are being used to counter him. Fact of the matter is that Mega Metagross is checked by stuff like Bisharp, Landorus-Therian, bulky waters, and many other things that teams would use anyway. Meta Megagross isn't really something you go out of your way to prepare for, since you're bound to have something to stop him anyway. It's then up to the player to use that check wisely.
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