Dude, i'm somewhat anti-ban myself, but have you seen the calcs for what he can do to his would-be checks with the approprate coverage move? Also, it's not just megagross you have to fear: if played reasonably well, he can get rid of the checks of the other pokemon on your team too!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - Spider Man [Metagrossite remains OU]
- Thread starter haunter
- Start date
- Status
I think part of the reason why mmeta isn't on every team like aegislash is that mmeta is a mega, which inherently restricts what teams he can be slapped on. Aegislash, who was just as if not more powerful then mmeta, was not a mega, allowing him to be slapped onto a team without any repercussions. This has very little to do with their respective strengths though.
What otherwise bad mon was being used to "counter" aegislash? It's been awhile, but if I remember right, the main aegis checks were bisharp, mandibuzz, sp def gliscor, sp def heatran, and lando-t.
None of these mons scream "shitmon" to me (though mandibuzz has fallen out of favor a bit in large part due to aegis leaving).
Even if mmeta is slightly less powerful then aegislash (which may well be the case), that doesn't make it not broken. I stand by my case that their strengths are incredibly similar and that the same reasoning can be used to argue for both of them being broken.
OK, just recently got reqs so I'm gonna post my thoughts here. I see two sides to the argument on this suspect: #1 being that metagross is centralizing and impossible to reliably counter because it can run varying coverage moves similar to Greninja when it was in OU. I agree with this sentiment in the fact that there aren't too many things that can reliably switch in before the metagross' full moveset is revealed however, this doesn't necessarily mean it is broken. I think that every team has a reliable switch in or answer to Metagross since you have to keep it in mind when building just like you have to keep all of the OU megas in mind, this doesn't make Metagross over-centralizing because we don't have to run unorthodox things like P2 during Greninja's reign but rather things like Slowbro, Skarmory,Rotom-w, Landorus-T, Mandibuzz etc. (and yes, I know that Metagross carries moves to hit all of these mons but he can't carry them all at once)
The #2 argument is that if we ban Metagross then Diancie and other fairies (mostly Diancie) will just become too much to handle. I agree fully with this theory as Mega-Diancie is already a monster in OU and was probably the main topic of discussion along with Metagross of course when discussing what to suspect for this round and now that it could lose this counter it is only revenge killed by Azumarill's Aqua Jet (depending on mitigating circumstances) and Scizor's Bullet Punch. So now we have a dilemma, the metagame should ultimately lose Mega-Metagross but if we ban it now we have to suffer through a much worse meta game where we actually have a super over centralizing mon in Diancie and where we have to run a Scizor, Band Azu or an Unaware mon to counter it. Please don't say that we should be thinking about the present meta and not the future because that simply isn't true, I believe that banning Metagross NOW would be extremely harmful to tournament play and to casual play as well because we have to deal with a stale and frustrating meta whether it is for 2 weeks or 2 months. So in my opinion, DO NOT BAN Mega-Metagross right now, either suspect Diancie and Metagross together or Diancie first and then Metagross next but doing this now will just make us all regret it for the coming weeks when we have to trudge through a fairy-filled meta.
The #2 argument is that if we ban Metagross then Diancie and other fairies (mostly Diancie) will just become too much to handle. I agree fully with this theory as Mega-Diancie is already a monster in OU and was probably the main topic of discussion along with Metagross of course when discussing what to suspect for this round and now that it could lose this counter it is only revenge killed by Azumarill's Aqua Jet (depending on mitigating circumstances) and Scizor's Bullet Punch. So now we have a dilemma, the metagame should ultimately lose Mega-Metagross but if we ban it now we have to suffer through a much worse meta game where we actually have a super over centralizing mon in Diancie and where we have to run a Scizor, Band Azu or an Unaware mon to counter it. Please don't say that we should be thinking about the present meta and not the future because that simply isn't true, I believe that banning Metagross NOW would be extremely harmful to tournament play and to casual play as well because we have to deal with a stale and frustrating meta whether it is for 2 weeks or 2 months. So in my opinion, DO NOT BAN Mega-Metagross right now, either suspect Diancie and Metagross together or Diancie first and then Metagross next but doing this now will just make us all regret it for the coming weeks when we have to trudge through a fairy-filled meta.
I agree that Aegislash is a much better comparison to MegaGross than Greninja, as both are bulky as opposed to simply blindingly fast and strong, but there are certain characteristics that set the two apart. Bulk is an important one, as Aegislash actually had significantly better bulk due to its typical investment in it as opposed to Metagross' almost prerequisite speed investment. It was also aided by the ability to hold Leftovers, which is recovery Metagross lacks, and King's Shield, which let it possibly neuter physical attackers.
Offensively, Aegislash was also better due to its stats, movepool, and typing. Ghost/Steel is better than Psychic/Steel both for defense and offense, as it gave Aegislash partial STAB on two move perfect neutral coverage. With a ghost type move and Sacred Sword, Aegislash could hit every single Pokemon for at least neutral damage, while Metagross needs all four moveslots. Aegislash could also afford to run either a physical or special set, had access to boosting moves it could afford to run because it covered more in fewer moves, and wasn't hindered by status nearly as much. Burn? Whoops, it was a special set and you gave it a "free" turn. Paralysis? Aegi's slow enough, and it's nowhere near as crippling as it is on MegaGross. On the other hand, MegaGross isn't ever running a special set (ever) so you know what you're dealing with, bar coverage.
The idea of Given vs. Taken is good, except when you consider that Metagross will pretty much always be dealing out and taking about the same amount of damage due to lack of extremely useful boosting and healing. Aegislash could be dealing standard damage or it could be running a boosting set that tears though things, and takes somewhere around 120% or 130% damage to kill because of lefties. This doesn't even account for the opportunity cost of using your Mega Slot vs not.
Are the two similar? Yes, but Aegislash is significantly better in multiple ways. There was doubt as to Aegislash's brokenness even now, and you didn't see as much debate about banning despite brokenness. To me, Mega Metagross isn't broken, at least at this point in time.
Arcanine.
I really want to leave it at that, coz its enough and that'd be kinda funny, but it'll probs get locked. Anyways, counter Skarm is a good example. Difference is, it's a good mon with an obscure move just for meta.
I agree with this partially, except I'd say it's more of a hybrid of the two. Like a bulky, far less versatile greninja. Neither is a perfect comparison.
RichieTheGarchomp
Banned deucer.
I feel like people are misled on something. Yes, Mega Metagross is one of the main reason why Counter Skarm is being used (its not bad btw) but its also good for many things. MDiancie (iron head Skarm gogogo), MMeta, Bisharp as Karxrida said, MGallade, DDance MAltaria, Non Sub MDos, etc. all fall victim to Skarmory.
November:
94 | Arcanine | 1.13510%
January:
| 110 | Arcanine | 0.70070%
Not exactly a large number of arcanines running around to stop mgross.
And counter is a decent move on non suicide lead skarmorys, because otherwise, yes it walls the physical threat, but it doesn't do much back.
And Aegislash was also more threatening offensively due to the fact that it could run special moves off of 150 base special attack as well as 150 base attack. And given its lackluster speed, it could afford to invest heavily in defences/hp to take advantage of that. Greninja could go physical or special, and was basically a deoxys-a with slightly better defences. Metagross isn't nearly on the same level as those two.
FrocoTerra
Banned deucer.
Pretty late reply, sorry, I'm busy, but I would like to say, Aegislash has no recovery. Greninja has no recovery. Gen 5 Excadrill had no recovery. Blaziken has no recovery. Genesect has no recovery. They can run lefties, so technically could get recovery? What about Mega Lucario, Mega Mawile, Mega Kangaskhan? They're all banned. MegaMeta doesn't need recovery, it's usually an all out offensive Pokemon. What I said is its bulk is too good for an offensive Pokemon, as univested it takes Super Effective 100 BP STAB Moves from 252 Atk Garchomp and Landorus-T. That's insane, with absolutely no defense investment
There's a reason every team has always more than one "reliable answer" and that's because it's the largest threat in the metagame and drastically restricts teambuilding as a result. Yes, we can use perfectly viable OU Pokemon, but as the ones you listed are shaky checks you cannot compare them to P2 coutering Greninja as they aren't full counters like P2 was; Greninja had a lot of "dependant counters", but the important thing is that as some of these begin to get more use than the others, by using different coverage move Greninja would've adapted back and this cycle is really unhealthy for the metagame. On a smaller scale, Metagross is capable of the same thing. Secondly, it's not the Pokemon we have to use that's the issue, it's the extent we have to use them to. Literally any half decent team needs 2/3 solid checks and a shaky counter to stand a chance in this metagame and even then a MMetagross running a different coverage move could beat said team. It just adds to the fact how matchup based this metagame is and that's not a good thing. By banning MMEta, we're making a less matchup based metagame, which is a healthier metagame. Lastly, those team slots lost to MMeta cockblocking is bad because of the ridiculous amount of threats in the metagame. Yes, no team is perfect, but it gets to the point where there's simply far too much to deal with in only 6 slots (even if you only cover 2/3 of the metagame) and this in turn makes the metagame really matchup based. All in all, it's easy to see how MMeta is making teambuilding a nightmare and is the leading cause of this matchup based metagame we have, and neither of these are healthy for the metagame at all.
You do realised that WE CAN BAN ANY BROKEN POKEMON TO IMPROVE THE METAGAME OMG. If Diancie really does turn out broken then we can ban it. It's that simple. Broken checking broken is unhealthy as all hell, and by banning MMeta and then MDiancie, we're just making the metagame more healthy and less matchup based in general. We won't regret anything as anything broken afterwards would be banned.
We should ban this metal arachnid
RichieTheGarchomp
Banned deucer.
Why were those mons banned? Because you just said it: they didnt need it. MMeta would function much better with recovery and turn into the ultimate Offensive mon. Since he isnt as dominant and really as good as Gren/MMaw/Aegi, etc. he wouldnt function well with Recovery anyways.
Basically if it barely hangs on to a EQ by Lando T its effective? Having like 10% HP left is fine? What? No! So what, bulk isnt good bulk without Recovery, and as you see, Aegi does not need it due to crippling defensive mons with KS, and the rest are all out attackers.
Saying its bulky is an invalid argument in many ways due to this. When I think bulky, i think of a mon that can tank shit while WoW'ing/crippling while having Recovery/Lefties.
Can you define what a healthy metagame is for me? Because a metagame where metagross is banned isn't healthier for me, and I don't believe it is either overpowered or overcentralising enough to warrant a ban.
For reference, again, I believe a healthy metagame is where all playstyles are viable. I have accepted the possibility of there being something that will always beat my team, there's something like 700 pokemon and it's increasing with every generation, and with power creep there are big threats introduced to where it's all but impossible to cover everything in 6 slots, as well as mega evolutions. But team matchup was a thing (to a lesser extent) in earlier generations, I believe there is a quote in the SPL thread from a DPP OU match where someone said a weavile and magnezone would tear through his team or something.
Without metagross, stall gets worse because of sableye getting worse due to something it checks being removed, and the subsequent buff to the only type it is weak to. Sableye is so good for stall that him getting worse makes the playstyle itself get a lot worse. There are other megas that can be used, but they all come with opportunity cost. Balanced teams get a huge buff, the second in a row after greninja (which did deserve to go, dont misunderstand me), because of how much better diancie, altaria and gardevoir became and HO stayed similar, both for lopunny improving and not being able to use mgross.
As for not being able to cover every relevant threat in a team, if you're trying to build balance with that mentality, yeah, it wont work. Because you already want offensive pressure too, as well as checking everything, and most of the multi-check mons belong on stallier teams. And stall can definitely handle most of the threats in a single team due to one mon checking multiple. As an example, mixed defenses slowbro checks metagross and keldeo as well as scald burn spreading, as well as being a potential win condition if you go for calm mind slowbro.
If we can agree on what a healthy metagame is, I believe we can further the discussion. Because right now we are typing in circles.
Sorry for ignoring the rest of your comment in this response, but I just have to get this out. Broken checking broken is a valid argument. I'm not saying it's the strongest of arguments out there, but just as a comparison something broken in UU isn't necessarily broken in OU. Why is this? Most of OU is too strong for UU standards and therefore one could say that broken mons for UU are checking other decidedly broken mons in UU...Now something tells me this statement will get misinterpreted, so to clarify things are broken based on the power level of things around them not based on how good they are. There was a power creep from X and Y to ORAS, so certain things that would have been broken in X and Y are now balanced possibly because of other mons that may have been considered broken in X and Y.
Also, the point of banning Metagross in the first place is trying to make the metagame more enjoyable and more balanced. If a number of things might become overpowered because of a ban, then maybe there are better options than just banning mega Metagross.
Some replies in bold.
There doesn't seem to be a strict definition, but a number of things appear to hurt the metagame for obvious reasons.
1) Overcentralisation. Don't need to elaborate on this one.
2) Matchup based metagame. This essentially means that players lose on team preview more often than having an even chance battle relying on the skill of the players and instead the teams they brought to the match. This clearly hurts the metagame as it defeats the point of a competitive game.
3) Too many relevant threats because this in itself leads to a matchup based metagame.
and so on and so on. I can't find some "definition" of a healthy metagame, but I can tell you what's obviously bad for a metagame and why this is the case.
If a number of things become overpowered after a ban (literally this won't happen. MAYBE Diancie, but where did this "number of things" come from?) Can't we just ban them? When we banned Aegi we weren't afraid to take the "risk" so why should we be here when we can solve these problems later down the line?
Mega Metagross: DO NOT BAN
So, I don't think that Mega Metagross should be banned and the reason is that the Metagame is "overcrowded".
With XY we get two other powerful fairy types in the name of Mega Altaria and Mega Diancie, I don't think they are broken, neither right now nor with a Mega Metagross ban, I don't even think that Mega Metagross itself is broken (hence one of the reasons I don't want to ban it) but I think that the effect he brings to the tier is invaluable.
XY has many threats to watch out for, this is sadly something that started to happen back in the days of BW, and it never had much attention untill now when we have something like 100+ threats to consider when we teambuild, some of them have restrictive option to consider in order to check them, I won't deny Mega Metagross is one of these threats, alongside other stuff like Landorus-Incarnate, Mega Gardevoir, Charizard, both X and Y, Mega Diancie, Mega Sableye, even Keldeo and so on.
it's not that we can ban all of these things, if we happen to ban MM fairy stuff like MDiancie, MGardevoir, MAltaria and also other stuff like Mega Lopunny/Mega Pinsir/Mega Venusaur/Latios/Latias losing an important offensive check would only benefit from it.
Does that make them broken? No, not at all, and as such we can't ban all of them, but what does that mean to a teambuilder? They would have to consider these and other lesser threats that will rise after MM ban MUCH MORE than now, which is cool and all to say it, but; how do you plan to stop all those 100+ threats with only six slots? You can't, at least Mega Metagross presence itself nerfs a sizeable amount of threats, and it doesn't even bring coinflips situation like Aegislash in the past did, while this might seem like a weak, perhaps even selfish motivation, Gen Six OU real problem aren't broken, or potential broken threats, the problem is Oversaturation (or to be more precise, Threats are "flooding" the tier), and it won't be solved by banning the most used Mega at the moment.
So, I don't think that Mega Metagross should be banned and the reason is that the Metagame is "overcrowded".
With XY we get two other powerful fairy types in the name of Mega Altaria and Mega Diancie, I don't think they are broken, neither right now nor with a Mega Metagross ban, I don't even think that Mega Metagross itself is broken (hence one of the reasons I don't want to ban it) but I think that the effect he brings to the tier is invaluable.
XY has many threats to watch out for, this is sadly something that started to happen back in the days of BW, and it never had much attention untill now when we have something like 100+ threats to consider when we teambuild, some of them have restrictive option to consider in order to check them, I won't deny Mega Metagross is one of these threats, alongside other stuff like Landorus-Incarnate, Mega Gardevoir, Charizard, both X and Y, Mega Diancie, Mega Sableye, even Keldeo and so on.
it's not that we can ban all of these things, if we happen to ban MM fairy stuff like MDiancie, MGardevoir, MAltaria and also other stuff like Mega Lopunny/Mega Pinsir/Mega Venusaur/Latios/Latias losing an important offensive check would only benefit from it.
Does that make them broken? No, not at all, and as such we can't ban all of them, but what does that mean to a teambuilder? They would have to consider these and other lesser threats that will rise after MM ban MUCH MORE than now, which is cool and all to say it, but; how do you plan to stop all those 100+ threats with only six slots? You can't, at least Mega Metagross presence itself nerfs a sizeable amount of threats, and it doesn't even bring coinflips situation like Aegislash in the past did, while this might seem like a weak, perhaps even selfish motivation, Gen Six OU real problem aren't broken, or potential broken threats, the problem is Oversaturation (or to be more precise, Threats are "flooding" the tier), and it won't be solved by banning the most used Mega at the moment.
In response to the bold things mainly, yes I do think it is more important that all playstyles are equally viable rather than chasing something practically unobtainable. All metagames are somewhat matchup based, and it will only increase each generation. I have long since come to terms with this, and would prefer a metagame we are not chasing an unrealistic goal by banning non-broken things just to fall backwards into what things were like in the past because we preferred them.
The bad thing about metagross leaving is that one playstyle, that doesn't even use metagross, gets significantly more hurt by it than the other playstyles do, and this creates a metagame where the mons available inherantly cause one playstyle to be less viable than another. In my opinion, this hurts the metagame a lot more than a non-broken thing that I need to keep in mind when teambuilding.
As for more things unchecked/uncountered, this isn't the case with well built stall teams, and show me a heavy offensive team that can switch in to multiple things and I'll show you a balanced team. The more things you want to check/counter, the more stallier teams you will play, and the fewer things you feel you need to counter, the more offensive teams you will play. If you do not wish to play stall (which does normally have an answer for most relevant threats, it's a matter of playing well with the answers that determines if you will win), and wish to play more balanced teams, you will be forced to overlook certain threats. Prioritising your threat list, and using one mon to check multiple things (like the aforementioned slowbro for keldeo + metagross) while building a balanced team while retaining offensive pressure is the staple of good balanced teambuilding. Yes there will always be something that you are weak to. Playing well should mean you can still give yourself the best options (using faster things, smart hazard use, smart status use, ext) and I dont see this being something that got significantly worse in ORAS than it was in XY, and I dont think Metagross, something which isn't broken, nor overcentralising, should go just because there are a lot of threats to consider.
I wont bring up the fairies thing though, I fully agree with broken checks broken being a poor mentality to have with this suspect.
Why is metagross bad for the metagame? You might say it is because it is compounding the fault of team matchup, but in my opinion it doesn't, it shares checks with a number of large threats, and using them doesn't hurt the team if it was gone. It isn't broken, isn't overcentralising, isn't a huge strain on teambuilding, and shouldn't have to go because of things that it is unrelated to (landorus-I being a very good mon, teams being unprepared for charizard-y instead of charizard-x, ext).
Pretty sure all that arcanine usage is from me XD
Anyway I just recently posted my thoughts about metagross after a period of relative inactivity, I have since gotten reqs(which seems to be getting easier and easier) so now I am here to post my post reqs thoughts. I will start by saying I am even more on the no ban side than I was before, this metagame is worse than the one with metagross, I encountered a bunch of mindless fairy spam(which I do not even understand, do people think metagross was the only steel type in ou?), but as a larger trend, I noticed a bunch of poorly constructed teams that people could get away with without metagross. Now there is a notable difference between creative teams and bad ones, and I think the lack of metagross is not promoting creativity but rather allowing people to slump back in to their lazy teambuilding. I mean I think most of you know me by now, and how I am usually quite ban happy. But I just do not see metagross being broken or uncompetitive so I will be voting NO BAN.
Also go read 9 Tales of Ninetales post and quit trying to ban metagross because you think the tier is overcrowded.
Edit: Also I wanted to express my dissapointment in the lack of mega venu, do you not see that mega venu is a god without metagross? I made a mega alakazam team to get reqs expecting to run into a shit ton of mega venu, but instead I get mindless garbage teams. I am dissapoint.
Last edited:
Yeah at this point I stopped considering a lot of the arguments here from both sides because there are so many apparent flaws in the ideology presented by the community that at this point it's only necessary to come here to moderate the thread. People want to create drastic changes by bringing Aegislash back down yet are afraid to ban based on the premise of Fairy spam? I mean that seems a little silly that people are using past suspects or something that didn't get banned like Char-X as the crutch of their arguments or using the grievances they have along with allowing very meta limiting threats to prosper in the tier. Also I don't understand how you're basing your entire opinion on a ladder that hasn't even been up for two weeks with half the players exemplifying mediocrity and lack of understanding based on the player base alone and what I'm seeing in this thread. I'm one to believe that M-Metagross is broken but obviously there's no way many people would consider it when you compare and contrast to such extreme levels that you basically allow power creep to take place. Whether or not it's a factor in team matchup is subjective but yeah M-Gross is just borked to myself and you can vote on the issue at hand instead of trying to lay down some philosophical tiering perspectives that half the player base isn't going to be concerned with or even come close to understanding. That's my take on the matter based on what everyone has been saying so far.
I said something about this earlier, but you literally read my mind and said my exact feelings on this metagame. At this point, suspect tests are nothing but cry-outs: it's either "don't ban this (because I use it on my team?)" or "do ban this (it's not really giving me trouble, but I'd prefer to not have to deal with it). There's also the rare user that actually wants it banned or not banned based on logical reasoning. OU these days is just a metagame of people exaggerating about these threats, and I'd really like to see it improved. And as far as Aegislash's ban goes, do you want it here for a "healthier" metagame or just to make one of your teams more effective? I really don't see the reasoning behind this because while I wouldn't necessarily hate an Aegis retest, I thought that we put all the banned XY suspects behind us by now.
By the way I've played like 10-15 ladder matches, and I didn't see a Diancie + Magnezone anywhere (doesn't mean there aren't any, probably is some in the higher rankings). You can literally take them out with Choice Scarf Lando so long as you get a slow Volt Switch or U-turn.
But as far as Metagross goes, this is definitely the hardest decision of ORAS OU so far. I mean, Greninja was obviously broken imo, but Metagross is somewhere in the middle of being "powerful" and "broken". It really does get all the tools it needs to succeed: priority, speed, bulk, typing. Not to mention its good movepool. But the thing is, if it wasn't for Metagross' pre-Mega Evolution Clear Body, it'd be somewhat easier to check - namely by Landorus-T. When in mega form, coverage of Meteor Mash / Hammer Arm / Zen Headbutt / Ice Punch (idk if meta even runs a boosting move anymore, not counting meteor mash) can, as you know, destroy much of the metagame. The thing is, while Mega Scizor is a counter to it, it really can't do much to it. If I remember right it runs something like BP / Superpower / U-turn / something else, and Superpower only does up to 49% and then Scizor gets forced out. I can't really think of any reliable other checks (Grass Knot exists too, so), and I don't think the argument "burn him, done" is a good "check" to him because you could've burned Aegis, Mega Kanga, or Mega Lucario just the same.
So I haven't posted here yet but I have been watching this thread for the past week. I've been laddering and trying to get reqs and I'm almost there. When the time comes I will be voting No ban. My reasoning for this comes off of two main arguments.
BEFORE I GET STARTED: I have never used Mega Metagross in competitive play. I used it in battles with my friends once the suspect was announced so that I could see the arguments of the Proban side. Back to the arguments.
1) Mega Metagross is VERY strong, but not broken. It is one of the, if not the best pokemon in OU. To this there can be no doubt. However, a lot of people are making the argument that nothing can switch in. I will get back to this point later but we seem to be forgetting that Mega Metagross has to mega evolve before becoming a threat, and its pre-mega cannot switch in on as much, having much weaker defenses. When Mega Metagross mega evolves, it has a measely base 80 speed, meaning it will either take 2 hits before attacking or it will be up against a bulkier pokemon (that can survive a hit and either burn or do more chip damage). Now I'm going to refer back to the "nothing switches in" argument. This is true, depending on the coverage move nothing can switch in. However some good cores can beat all options of its coverage move. (Note I am using STABS/Hammer or EQ/Coverage. 2 pokemon that beat this come to mind: Slowbro (Normal with leftovers)+Lando-T. "But JTAL2000, each player has 6 pokemon on a team and Mega Metagross chooses coverage based on the team." In many cases this is like Greninja, however there are a few differences: 1) Greninja can pick 4 coverage moves. Mega Metagross has to rely on its dual STABs+ 2 Coverage moves (one of which has to hit steels). Many pokemon can check it relatively well with prior damage, and while they do fear switching in at times (Bisharp namely) when they come in they either force Metagross out to take damage when it switches back in or they kill Metagross (after a bit of prior damage, which it will take when switching in). What if Metagross is out there and doesn't have to switch in? That means that Metagross was either brought in by a slow VoltTurn or it is coming in to revenge.
I'm sorry if that first point rambled on a bit, the tl;dr of that is basically that Mega Metagross is not the glue Greninja was, it is restricted by poor pre-mega stats and good cores can beat its coverage.
2) ON THE ASSUMPTION IT IS NOT BROKEN! Does Mega Metagross limit teambuilding? I have to admit that it does in some ways. You either have to adjust your spreads to deal with it or you will lose. But let me ask you a question: What happens if you don't prepare for Keldeo? If your team loses to Keldeo then you lose when you see a Keldeo. What if you have something that beats its specs or scarf set but it ends up being SubCM? Keldeo isn't broken, it does have several switchins. But like Mega Metagross, like ANY A+ OR S RANK POKEMON you do have to prepare for them. I have played this metagame through suspect ladder on 2 different accounts (one used to test teams). From what I've seen teambuilding is a lot lazier. There are no new threats emerging, no covered up pokes getting free (with the exception of Mega Diancie which I will vote to ban if megagross gets banned). In fact, the need to carry Scizor is even greater now. The centralization is now around fairy megas and the metagame is a lot worse. BEFORE PEOPLE GET MAD AT ME FOR SAYING BROKEN CHECKS BROKEN! I AM NOT SAYING THAT! I would not say ANY of this if I though Metagross was broken. If it was broken I would say ban it and deal with the consequences. However, it is not broken and banning an S RANK POKE because you HAVE TO PREPARE FOR IT is just ridiculous. Like any good pokemon you have to prepare for it or you will lose. If you can't handle all of the threats and want Metagross gone because it's really good then I have no way to use logic to persuade you. This is horrible reasoning. I can't handle X threat so we should ban it so that my team beats the whole metagame! No. If it was broken? Yes. If it's simply really strong? No.
tl;dr Mega Metagross is incredibly strong, but it is not broken. It must be prepared for, like any other A+ or S rank poke, but this does not make it ban-worthy.
If I missed something or messed something up let me know.
BEFORE I GET STARTED: I have never used Mega Metagross in competitive play. I used it in battles with my friends once the suspect was announced so that I could see the arguments of the Proban side. Back to the arguments.
1) Mega Metagross is VERY strong, but not broken. It is one of the, if not the best pokemon in OU. To this there can be no doubt. However, a lot of people are making the argument that nothing can switch in. I will get back to this point later but we seem to be forgetting that Mega Metagross has to mega evolve before becoming a threat, and its pre-mega cannot switch in on as much, having much weaker defenses. When Mega Metagross mega evolves, it has a measely base 80 speed, meaning it will either take 2 hits before attacking or it will be up against a bulkier pokemon (that can survive a hit and either burn or do more chip damage). Now I'm going to refer back to the "nothing switches in" argument. This is true, depending on the coverage move nothing can switch in. However some good cores can beat all options of its coverage move. (Note I am using STABS/Hammer or EQ/Coverage. 2 pokemon that beat this come to mind: Slowbro (Normal with leftovers)+Lando-T. "But JTAL2000, each player has 6 pokemon on a team and Mega Metagross chooses coverage based on the team." In many cases this is like Greninja, however there are a few differences: 1) Greninja can pick 4 coverage moves. Mega Metagross has to rely on its dual STABs+ 2 Coverage moves (one of which has to hit steels). Many pokemon can check it relatively well with prior damage, and while they do fear switching in at times (Bisharp namely) when they come in they either force Metagross out to take damage when it switches back in or they kill Metagross (after a bit of prior damage, which it will take when switching in). What if Metagross is out there and doesn't have to switch in? That means that Metagross was either brought in by a slow VoltTurn or it is coming in to revenge.
I'm sorry if that first point rambled on a bit, the tl;dr of that is basically that Mega Metagross is not the glue Greninja was, it is restricted by poor pre-mega stats and good cores can beat its coverage.
2) ON THE ASSUMPTION IT IS NOT BROKEN! Does Mega Metagross limit teambuilding? I have to admit that it does in some ways. You either have to adjust your spreads to deal with it or you will lose. But let me ask you a question: What happens if you don't prepare for Keldeo? If your team loses to Keldeo then you lose when you see a Keldeo. What if you have something that beats its specs or scarf set but it ends up being SubCM? Keldeo isn't broken, it does have several switchins. But like Mega Metagross, like ANY A+ OR S RANK POKEMON you do have to prepare for them. I have played this metagame through suspect ladder on 2 different accounts (one used to test teams). From what I've seen teambuilding is a lot lazier. There are no new threats emerging, no covered up pokes getting free (with the exception of Mega Diancie which I will vote to ban if megagross gets banned). In fact, the need to carry Scizor is even greater now. The centralization is now around fairy megas and the metagame is a lot worse. BEFORE PEOPLE GET MAD AT ME FOR SAYING BROKEN CHECKS BROKEN! I AM NOT SAYING THAT! I would not say ANY of this if I though Metagross was broken. If it was broken I would say ban it and deal with the consequences. However, it is not broken and banning an S RANK POKE because you HAVE TO PREPARE FOR IT is just ridiculous. Like any good pokemon you have to prepare for it or you will lose. If you can't handle all of the threats and want Metagross gone because it's really good then I have no way to use logic to persuade you. This is horrible reasoning. I can't handle X threat so we should ban it so that my team beats the whole metagame! No. If it was broken? Yes. If it's simply really strong? No.
tl;dr Mega Metagross is incredibly strong, but it is not broken. It must be prepared for, like any other A+ or S rank poke, but this does not make it ban-worthy.
If I missed something or messed something up let me know.
There is no reason in the world why mmeta can't run hp investment, he certainly has the bulk to get away with it (megazor has very similar stats, barring speed to mmeta and gets away with it just fine, so why not mmeta?). Having a good base speed does not bar him from running defense investment, especially not with defensive stats like his. Lefties and KS are significant though, agreed.
Yeah, aegis has some versatility that meta doesn't have, namely the ability to run special sets, setup sets, and sub-toxic. His typing is also much better then mmetas from an offensive standpoint (defensively they're about the same). I think you're overrating his SD set a bit, even at +2 he's not breaking much due to low speed and his poor defenses in blade form. Shadow Sneak helps, but it's still not impressive from anything other then a wallbreaking standpoint.
I will grant that Aegislash is probably more broken then Mega Metagross (though I don't think mmeta's potential is as fully explored as aegis' was, for example there really is no reason why it can't run bulky), and I apologize if I implied otherwise. However, I still think that mmeta still fits my definition of "broken", because he usually is dealing a fair bit more damage then he is taking.
How to Mega Metagross:
1. Swap him into a resisted hit, taking about 20-30% in the process.
2. If your opponent doesn't have a "good" swap in for his STABs, pick a STAB, dealing anywhere between 50-60% to the swap in.
3. If your opponent does have a good swap in, either A. hit him with a STAB and then follow up with a coverage move, or B. predict the swap and hit with a coverage move. Either choice, in all but a few circumstances, will result in a KO/forceout.
4. If you can't force the opponent out(whether it be through bad prediction or getting countered), just swap out and come back later.
Mmeta can do this 2 or 3 times in a game, due to his constantly mentioned bulk. Each time, he metes out a solid 30-100% worth of damage to the opponent's team. Under most circumstances, mmeta is dealing far more damage then he takes unless his opponent is running one of the handful of mons considered to be his "counter". Even if his opponent is running a counter though, these mons are incredibly passive, allowing mmeta to swap out to one of his dangerous teammates for free, which is always a very powerful move that can outright win games (only a fool would expect mmeta to outright sweep the enemy team, again much like aegislash).
*edit*
Here, have an example:
Situation: phys defensive clefable came out to check your garchomp, forcing him out. You're pretty sure it's not running flamethrower, so you send out mmeta predicting the moonblast:
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 45-54 (14.9 - 17.9%) -- possible 6HKO
Your enemy is running rotom-w and lando-t as potential mmeta checks (nothing else he has is relevent), so you decide to play it safe and go for meteor mash in case of potential flamethrower (which ohkos clefable). Your opponent sends in rotom-w.
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 37-44 (12.2 - 14.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever
This is pretty bad, to be sure, but lets say for whatever reason you really want him gone (maybe he's stopping a SD talonflame sweep or something), so you Zen headbutt
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 133-157 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
So by now Rotom has taken about 50% of his health already, so lets assume that he predicts you staying in and goes for the WoW, burning your meta.
However, you're still at an advantage:
252 Atk Tough Claws burned Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 66-78 (21.7 - 25.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
Remember, Rotom has already taken about 50% damage from MM and Zen Headbutt, so this weakens him further to about 30% of his health, now fairly unable to check much of anything.
Remember that aforementioned SD talonflame?
+2 252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 121-143 (39.9 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
This is with pretty much perfect play on the opponent's part and virtually 0 prediction on the part of the mmeta user, and the mmeta user is still at an advantage simply by virtue of running mmeta.
Last edited:
Mega Metagross is at a good speed tier, has good attacking and defensive stats, typing defensively and offensively, a "life orb" as an ability, coverage moves, with few checks and counters. It feels like a mix Mega Lucario, blade form Aegislash, and Greninja to me, very offensive. in playing the ladder so far I have seen a more balanced metagame. However, Metagross checks/counters many pokemons and if he is gone something else will take over as a centralizing factor in the OU tier. I do not know if Metagross is broken or not I have not decided, but I feel like banning him will make OU less centralizing.
Guys, I still don't get how fairies will run rampant if one Mega is gone. Like...it's a mega. I think I said this before so forgive me for repetition, but you can't just slap Mega Meta onto any team. It's a mega. If you're so worried about Mega Diancie being broken afterwards (which she won't be imo), there are plenty of steel types (Air Balloon Heatran, regular Scizor...but there's one check here that I think you guys underestimate, and that's Diggersby. It fails to be OHKO'd by any of Mega Diancie's attacks, and a simple Earthquake will literally OHKO 252/252+ Mega Diancie after Stealth Rock.
If I'm totally wrong here please point it out because I don't see how a whole type will run rampant if one mega goes. Now this next part will likely be wrong since I wasn't here for BW2 but from what I heard, dragons were everywhere. Did the council ban every good dragon? No, because there were checks to them. Not as much as people would've liked, maybe, but they exist, and I find our current situation relatable to the apparent soon-to-run-over-OU fairy-type and also Metagross itself.
If I'm totally wrong here please point it out because I don't see how a whole type will run rampant if one mega goes. Now this next part will likely be wrong since I wasn't here for BW2 but from what I heard, dragons were everywhere. Did the council ban every good dragon? No, because there were checks to them. Not as much as people would've liked, maybe, but they exist, and I find our current situation relatable to the apparent soon-to-run-over-OU fairy-type and also Metagross itself.
You're missing the point that Rotom has ways to recover. A team with Clef + Rotom-W is likely carrying a wishpasser, as it will be a balanced/defensive team (non Flamethrower Clef is either SR or Cleric usually, lets say it's cleric), and Rotom can heal with pain split anyway. So if Clef wishpasses to Rotom, MMeta hasn't really helped SD Flame sweep, just forced the opponent to wishpass or Rotom-W to pain split a reasonably healthy poke.
You can't say MMeta is broken as it can ruin itself V a check and weaken the check enough to let your sweeper/cleaner who is checked by the same mon to sweep when the check has a form of healing (albiet the unreliable Pain Split) and list a teamate as a poke often used as a cleric. At least make a logical argument, this relies on correctly predicting a Clefable set, making sure you have pain split fodder and block any attempted wishpasses (which seem likely to be on a Clef + Rotom team, especially when non flamethrower Clef).
Edit: How you say failing to predict MMeta coming into what we're saying is defensive Clef is "pretty much perfect play" in the same sentence you say predicting the set of the said Clef is "0 prediction" is beyond me.
Diancie has check, it's true. But the fact is that the metagame will be dominated by Diancie (and Balanced teams). It's not only a typing concern, it's a Pokémon / teambuilding restriction concern.
Also you can consider your thought process to Metagross, he also have a lot of checks.
Dragons were threats, yes, and we had checks, yes. But was not a problem because we are not concerned by the typing itself, it depends of the mons that are using said typing.
- Status