Gengar's poison type [ Poll and long post ahead ]

[PakGamer]

Everyone knows Gengar is one of the if not the most unpredictable pokemon in the game. It can even hit hard on the physical side and killing your special wall with ease, Not only that it can even destroy your counter with destiny bond after its done a considerable amount of damage or just make it go to sleep.
All in all hes one of the best in the game, But today we talk about his typing. Ghost/Poison, No ones really stressed this enough, I want to know the community's answer to this. Is it better that hes part poison, or it brings him down a notch adding that psychic weak.Lets take a look at the positives that come from this typing.
+ Doubles his poison resist to x4 ( 400% )
+ Doubles his bug resist to x4 ( 400% )
+ Adds a grass resist to x2 ( 200% )
+ Immunity to toxic making him even easier to bring in, However levitate removes his ability to suck up toxic spikes from the field
+ Adds a secondary stab ( Though its not so useful )
Now lets take a look at the negatives from his poison typing.
- Adds a psychic weak x2 ( 200% )
- Adds a ground weak x2 ( 200 % ) However it is negated by levitate, It still matters though thanks to mold breaker
To the naked eye, the poison typing is awesome for gengar however.... That psychic weak really is a lot bigger than it seems. Ghost only hits two types for super effective ( Psychic, Ghost ) so lets take a look at the OU psychic threats.
- Alakazam
- Azelf
These are the main psychic threats in the game as both of them are just like gengar and able to dish out serious pain.And standard gengar ohkos both of them with shadow ball, Even an expert belt ( Which is better than life orb in my opinion ) Manages to ohko.
Just some clarifications when ever i refer to a standard gengar, I use these evs and natures.
Gengar @ Life Orb
Timid nature
4 hp 252 special attack 252 speed

Standard Gengar shadow ball to 36 hp 0 sp def Azelf = Total hp 299, None of the proposed sets on smogon propose any more than 39 hp evs and more than 0 sp def evs.
That attack will do between 390 and 459 damage! Definite OHKO

Standard Gengar shadow ball to 4 hp 0 sp def Alakazam = Total hp 252, None of the proposed sets on smogon propose any more than 4 hp evs and more than 0 sp def evs.That attack will do between 334 and 393 damage! Definite OHKO
So great, Gengar ohkos both of them with ease, However.. They are both faster than gengar so hes going to have to outperdict him or die the very next turn.They both OHKO easily with STAB psychic.The question is.. Would they still OHKO standard gengar if he wasn't weak to psychic? Lets find out.

Standard Azelf ( Timid, 252 special attack, 232 speed life orb ) psychic to standard gengar = total hp 262
That attack will do between 186 and 219 damage! There is no chance to OHKO how ever its a definite 2ko

Standard Alakazam ( Timid, 252 special attack, 252 speed life orb ) psychic to standard gengar = total hp 262
That attack will do between 213 and 251 damage! Once again no chance at an OHKO but definite 2ko, However gengar has a chance of dying after attacking with shadow ball thanks to life orb recoil
So its established, Gengar wouldn't get ohkod by them, But he cant switch in them either ( Unless someone dies and then he switches in ) Cause they'll both attack twice before gengar gets an attack in.The negatives are out of the way, lets get on to the positives of having the poison type resistances.

4x Bug Resist, Top Bug Threats
- Heracross
- Yanmega
- Scizor

Standard Heracross ( Adamant, 252 atk, Choice Band ) Megahorn against standard gengar = total hp 262
That attack will do between 159 and 188 damage! No OHKO definite 2ko
Who would've thought.. A standard gengar with no defense evs and 4 hp evs can acually not get ohkod by a banded heracross, Standard gengar also has a chance to 2ko heracross back with shadow ball ( 51 - 57 % damage to standard heracross )

Standard Yanmega ( Modest, 252 sp atk, Life Orb ) Bug Buzz against standard gengar = total hp 262
That attack will do between 53 and 62 damage! Not even close to an OHKO.
In return standard Gengar 2kos back with shadow ball and OHKOS with Hidden Power Ice and ThunderBolt.

Standard Scizor ( Impish, 0 attack, Leftovers ) X-Scizor against standard gengar = total hp 262
That attack will do between 41 and 49 damage! Far and wide away from an OHKO
Standard Scizor with Sword Danced X-Scizor against standard gengar = total hp 262
That attack will do between 82 and 96 damage! No where near an ohko.In return gengar can't do much, The best it can do is ThunderBolt which is about a 3ko sometimes 2ko and scizor can simply roost off damage as you kill yourself with life orb, Or you can make it go to sleep and pound away.

4x Poison resist, Top Poison Threats
- Roserade
- Venasaur
- Tentacruel

Standard Roserade ( Timid, 252 special attack, Choice Specs ) Sludge Bomb against standard gengar = total hp 262
That attack will do between 80 and 94 damage! No where near an OHKO.
In return, Gengar 2kos with either hidden power ice or shadow ball.

Standard Venasaur ( Bold, 0 special attack, Black Sludge ) Sludge Bomb against a standard Gengar = 262 hp
That attack will do between 34 and 40 damage! Forget about an ohko, However gengar can't even 3ko standard venasaur with shadow ball or hp ice and thats without black sludge and leech seed accounted. Its best to switch out for sure.
Standard Tentacruel ( Jolly, 252 attack, LeftOvers ) Poison Jab against a standard Gengar = 262 hp
That attack will do between34 and40 damage!
With Swords Dance
That attack will do between 67 and78 damage! No where near an ohko however waterfall will 2ko without Swords Dance and OHKO with Swords Dance. Gengar cannot OHKO back with thunderbolt or shadow ball, It is a 2ko.

2x Grass resist, Top Grass Threats
- Breloom
- Sceptile
- Tangrowth

Standard Breloom ( Adamant, 252 atk, Poison Heal ) Seed Bomb against a standard Gengar = 262 hp
That attack will do between110 and 130 damage!2ko, Gengar easily ohkos back with either shadow ball or hp ice.

Standard Physical Sceptile ( Jolly, 252 atk, Leftovers ) Leaf Blade against a standard Gengar = 262 hp
That attack will do between 85 and 100 damage! 3ko without critical, 2ko with critical.Gengar easily ohkos back with Hidden Power Ice and 2kos with shadow ball.
Leaf blade with swords dance
That attack will do between 169 and 198 damage! 2ko without critical ohko with critical.
Standard Special Sceptile ( Timid, 252 special attack, Choice Specs ) Leaf Storm against a standard Gengar = 262 hp
That attack will do between 250 and 295 damage! After the special attack drop. That attack will do between 126 and 148 damage! So not the best switch in as sceptile is faster and will 2ko before you will attack.Gengar ohkos with Hidden Power Ice though.

Standard Tangrowth ( Impish, 0 attack, LeftOvers) Power Whip against a standard Gengar = 262 hp
That attack will do between 99 and 117 damage! Barely a 2ko and gengar ohkos back with Hidden Power Ice.

Alright so now you've seen everything you need to see! Now use your brains and figure out how it would be like without those resistances.
The simple question is, Do you think that gengar would be better off with just being a ghost type? Or hes better as a part poison type?
My answer is yes hes better being part poison because it actually gives it more chances to come in and do heavy damage.
Please state why you think its better or not when voting!
Happy voting!

 

[Anti]

Better Heracross switch in made it for me. Psychic like isn't seen.

 

[Bogmire]

Doesn't poison STAB count as a plus?

 

[PakGamer]

Ha lol, Its such a poor attacking type that i forgot to even mention it.
Added, Thanks.

 

[Amandabynes]

I think it does help more than hurt, the only thing that uses Psychic is Alakazam...which I've not seen very often since Azelf.

 

[merubin]

Psychic is such a rare attacking type since Dark came out I just can't see it mattering. Alakazam is virtually non-existent in play (though very often choiced so you've got the OHKO with or without weakness. Apart from aforementioned Azelf, you've got Jirachi with Zen Headbutt and maaaaybe a Metagross packing it once in a while. Gardevoir and Gallade, I suppose, but they're allso rare and Gallade can use Night Slash also. Keep him Poison; keep him Levitating.

 

[Fishin]

I'm saying yes. The only real disadvantage is the psychic weakness, which is quite rare. The extra resistances give Gengar some more chances to switch in, which it can really use given it's bad defenses (3 immunities, but it's not like more hurts). Toxic immunity isn't a huge selling point but it helps. Too bad it can't take advantage of Poison's most useful resistance since it's ghost type, but it's still good.

 

[Zero7]

Yes, but no, hmm this is hard, maybe I shouldn't have voted o.O

 

[astrohawke]

Standard Heracross ( Adamant, 252 atk, Choice Band ) Megahorn against standard gengar = total hp 262
That attack will do between 159 and 188 damage! No OHKO definite 2ko
Who would've thought.. A standard gengar with no defense evs and 4 hp evs can acually not get ohkod by a banded heracross, Standard gengar also has a chance to 2ko heracross back with shadow ball ( 51 - 57 % damage to standard heracross )

Standard Scizor ( Impish, 0 attack, Leftovers ) X-Scizor against standard gengar = total hp 262
That attack will do between 166 and 195 damage! A definite 2ko
Standard Scizor with Sword Danced X-Scizor against standard gengar = total hp 262
That attack will do between 330 and 388 damage! Easy ohko
In return gengar can't do much, The best it can do is ThunderBolt which is about a 3ko.

WTF 0 attack impish scizor with leftovers does more damage with X-scizor than a max attack choice band heracross megahorn? What are we smoking here?

 

[Bam]

Your Azelf vs. Gengar calc is WAY off. You used 252 SpAtk, but Timid Azelf with 252 SpAtk EVs and Life Orb does 182-214% with STAB Psychic. You may want to check your other calcs and make sure they're right.

 

[merubin]

I'm getting 45.59% - 53.64% for CB Megahorn and 15.71% - 18.77% for Scizor.

 

[TAY]

To the naked eye, the poison typing is awesome for gengar however.... That psychic weak really is a lot bigger than it seems. Ghost only hits one type for super effective ( Psychic ) so lets take a look at the OU psychic threats.

Actually, the psychic weak isn't a big deal since psychic is still a god-awful attacking type. And don't forget that ghost hits other ghosts for super effective, too!

The poison type is definitely a help to Gengar. It allows him to stop megahorn from hera. That alone makes the poison advantageous. --TAY

 

[n3ther]

The poison typing definitely gives him more resistances that outweigh his weakness to psychic which isn't seen much at all anyway.

Also this thread is discussing a rather useless topic.

 

[Youkai Enslaver]

I think it's better off being part Poison-type. And though many people disagree, I like giving my Gengar that powerful STAB Sludge Bomb.

 

[obi]

Recheck all of your damage calculations.

 

[Astamatitos]

Yes since it allows to switch in on toxics and megahorn .

 

[Mekkah]

I'll calculate some things for you, but first some solid facts. We'll call Gengar as we know it Gengar #1, while the Gengar without his Poison type is Gengar #2.

Gengar #1 is immune to Toxic. Gengar #2 isn't. One important consequence is that Gengar #2 now needs Substitute to beat Toxic Blissey, which last time I checked, is used a lot and is actually forced to use Ice Beam or some such to actually hurt him. If we replace Gengar #1 with Gengar #2 in the metagame, Blissey would only become a better counter to him, unless you start Subpunching, but we all know that cuts Gengar's versatility and durability more than it should (though SubPunching Gengar does beat Weavile and Tyranitar).

All calculations assume Gengar has absolute minimum defenses. It may not have those all the time, but for a comparison between two Gengars that is hardly relevant.

Adamant Heracross using Megahorn

Gengar #1
383 attack vs 156 defense, 120 power(* 1.5 * 0.25), 261 max HP: 30.27% - 35.63%
Gengar #2
383 attack vs 156 defense, 120 power(* 1.5 * 0.5), 261 max HP: 60.54% - 71.26%

Since this is pretty much always Scarfcross, Gengar #1 is actually somewhat of a counter here while Gengar #2 is defenseless to the point where if it's taken 40% prior damage Scarfcross can revengekill him despite the resistance.

Adamant Choice Band Heracross

Gengar #1
383 attack vs 156 defense, 120 power(* 1.5 * 1.5 * 0.25), 261 max HP: 45.59% - 53.64%

Gengar #2
383 attack vs 156 defense, 120 power(* 1.5 * 1.5 * 0.5), 261 max HP: 91.19% - 107.28%

Indeed, Gengar #2 can get OHKOed by CBCross, and will be OHKOed with Stealth Rock in play.

Yanmega and Scizor are more iffy to calculate for. Yanmega is either going to Psychic Gengar into oblivion or it's locked into a Choice Specs Bug Buzz - after all, it's faster than Gengar after one Speed Boost, which will very often be in there, and if it isn't then it can use Protect and such. Scizor is often going to Agilitypass or something, and isn't really willing to stay into Gengar to follow the consequences because of Will-o-Wisp.

For the Psychic weak...

Modest Azelf Psychic

Gengar #1
383 attack vs 186 defense, 90 power(* 1.5 * 2), 261 max HP: 153.26% - 180.46%

Gengar #2
383 attack vs 186 defense, 90 power(* 1.5), 261 max HP: 76.63% - 90.04%

Looks like even without the Psychic weak Gengar is not taking this one ever. Obviously this is only really relevant when fighting a Scarfed Azelf. Against every other kind of Azelf, Gengar getting Psychiced involves some kind of suicidal action, which will either only occur lategame when Gengar is probably injured already, or earlygame when Gengar is at full health, but then if you have to switch in Gengar into Azelf it's pretty to assume your team fails in general. In a non-Scarf Azelf vs Gengar match-up, Gengar rapes Azelf with Shadow Ball.

Alakazam only has more Special Attack and will either outspeed Gengar, or Gengar is Scarfed and outspeeds and OHKOs by himself, but since both parties will likely OHKO each other regardless of typing, it's a tie between Gengar #1 and Gengar #2.

Anyway, I used to think I'd like Gengar better if it were a pure Ghost, but that is probably more something from previous generations. Here, it seems as if Poison is indeed helping more than hindering. Not because Psychic is nonexistant, but because Toxic is very common, mostly.

 

[Deck Knight]

Despite the crap Poison gets for being an awful offensive type, Poison is a great defensive type.

Immune to Toxic
Absorbs Toxic Spikes (when not flying/levitating)
Resistance to Fighting, Bug, and Grass.

Weakness to Ground is the worst thing, but notice the most popular poisons are either part Flying or have Levitate.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Poison is like Steel and Psychic in the sense it's good defensively, but abysmal offensively. But if Poison was coupled with Steel, that probably wouldn't be good defensively.

Therefore I think Gengar being Ghost type is one of the largest factors as to whether its Poison type helps it.

Judging by the fact that Gengar as the 2nd most used Special Pokemon (Blissey is 1st, but defensively orientated), I think its type combo works well.

 

[PakGamer]

My appologies with my damage calculations, All of them appear to be correct but one.
I have messed up the calculation on scizor.... I had a feeling it was off :F
I've edited my post with the following. ( I forgot to add the 4x bug resist :D )
Standard Scizor ( Impish, 0 attack, Leftovers ) X-Scizor against standard gengar = total hp 262
That attack will do between 41 and 49 damage! Far and wide away from an OHKO
Standard Scizor with Sword Danced X-Scizor against standard gengar = total hp 262
That attack will do between 82 and 96 damage! No where near an ohko.In return gengar can't do much, The best it can do is ThunderBolt which is about a 3ko sometimes 2ko and scizor can simply roost off damage as you kill yourself with life orb, Or you can make it go to sleep and pound away.
I don't think i have messed up any of the other calculations, Let me know if i have.
Ghost hitting ghost for super effective has also been fixed.Thanks everyone.

 

[cim]

The Psychic weak is the only thing I notice, and it definitley hurts. Medicham, Jirachi, and the like use it to kill him physically. It's less of a hindrance thin generation, with even more Dark types running everywhere.

 

[PakGamer]

Too bad it can't take advantage of Poison's most useful resistance since it's ghost type, but it's still good.

Just out of curiosity what are you referring to as the poison's greatest resistance? And what doesn't it resist?
Pure poison resists the following:
- Grass
- Bug
- Poison
- Fighting
Gengar resists all of them, and is actually immune to fighting which is even better.
Which resistance gets removed by his ghost typing?

 

[cornflake]

Fighting. The most useful resistance of poison types.

 

[Dragontamer]

Pure Ghost?? Gengar should be pure poison. He really doesn't need his immunities to fighting and normal. Really... he doesn't >_>

 

[Rudoku]

The Psychic weak is the only thing I notice, and it definitley hurts. Medicham, Jirachi, and the like use it to kill him physically. It's less of a hindrance thin generation, with even more Dark types running everywhere.

I don't know, Mismagius has the same Defense/Hp with the lack of poison and it gets screwed over by them too.