CAP 11 CAP 11 - Main Typing Discussion

[Innocent Criminal]

I Thnik Togekiss' perfect mate needs rock resistance, as it will probably have to switch a lot and take Stone Edges directed at Togekiss. Of the three types resisting it, Steel is a horrible choice : because of its Fighting weakness and its too many resistances, it will probably become another pojemon's best partner... Probably Gyarados, who shares many counters with Togekiss but resists Fighting.

That leaves Ground and Fighting. While Ground is obvious and has benn stated many times, I think Fighting deserves more considerations. Here are the main relevant différences between the two :

Ground :
++++Electric Immunity
+SE against Jolteon
+Bulky water weakness
-Can't touch Skarmory and Bronzong
- - Ice Weakness

Fighting :
+Resists Bug (Togekiss also does, but it can't risk taking a Bullet Punch)
+Hit Skarmory and Bronzong.
+Best offensive synergy with Flying.
++Counters perfectly TTar (CAP11 will probably use special attacks, so Earth Power isn't enough, and Aqua Tail can still threaten Ground)
++Beat Blissey


I Think Fighting's main advantages are that it has no drawback that Ground doesn't have, and especially no Ice weakness, and that it handles some of Togekiss' counters while Ground does nothing to them. That means we will have complete freedom in choosing our secondary typing and ability to beat Togekiss' remaining counters, while Ground still need to both beat every counter and find a way to resist Ice.

 

[X-Act]

I'm fine with any type that is chosen, as long as it does not take SE hits from Electric, Ice or Rock.

(This means that I don't like Ground.)

Also, remember that the type of a Pokemon does not affect its offensive nature that much. What it surely affects is its defensive nature.

Tyranitar is a good example: it is Dark/Rock, having a long list of weaknesses... and yet it can beat many Pokemon one on one due to its huge movepool (obviously comprising moves that are not only Dark-type and Rock-type). Tyranitar hits with Aqua Tail just fine even though it's not Water-type. You get my drift, hopefully.

 

[jumpluff]

Psychic is a bad idea. It yields neither offensive nor defensive benefit for Togekiss and has an entire list of problems already that keep its greatest representatives from being OU. You'll have to do a lot to work around how badly it gets ruined by TTar, Scizor, Steels, and Pursuit. On top of that, you don't even get a good STAB out of the deal. I don't see any reason at all to support this.

I think it could be a decent subtype, but meh. It resists Fighting and lures Bug-type and Ghost-type attacks for Togekiss to come in. My main problem with Psychic is that it invites Tyranitar to come and stomp on them. While we want our core to have exploitable weaknesses, a severe Tyranitar weakness would cripple this core to the point nobody would use it, and/or they would need a lot of extra support.

As for Ground...that double Ice weakness looks very unappealing, especially since it's such a common attacking type, but we have a seriously limited number of powerful Ice attackers in OU so maybe having uncommon Pokemon breaking through the duo might not be such a bad idea. Other than that, we're looking at a serious competitor here: STAB EQ for offense, Electric immunity and Rock resistance for defense, SR resistance, shuts down Tyranitar, Jirachi, and Metagross...we might be onto something here.

I'm having trouble finding an alternative, so I agree Ground is probably the best. The Ice weakness is fine, since Togekiss can tank Ice Beams with Roost (especially if paralysis is spread), and there's nothing wrong with the likes of Weavile being able to beat our core.

Also, I have to say, I was once keen on the idea of CAP11's main typing being Electric, but it's really not going to help vs. any of Togekiss's counters. But we don't know the moves, stats, or secondary typing yet, so it still has potential.

Electric is a nice STAB that is not resisted by many Pokémon that trouble Togekiss. Defensively, it resists Electric and Steel, which helps for the physical steel attacks like Bullet Punch and Meteor Mash. Unfortunately, Metagross nearly always has Earthquake. It lures in Earthquakes (though EQ-carrying Pokémon often have Stone Edge), which Togekiss can take care of. That's about it, I guess. I'm not so keen on it.

There is the 'We can give it Thunder Wave' argument, which I find a little silly, since we can give a paralysis move to anything. Thunder Wave is VERY well-distributed. But I digress; this is about typing. I just wanted to refute that point.

ETA: Hi, X-Act! Nice to see you around again.

 

[callforjudgement]

I'm starting to think that Ground is a very bad choice. The reason is that although it may help out Togekiss, it helps out other Flying-types more. Just look at what happened when Collossoil was added to the OU metagame, for instance; Staraptor usage shot way up.

The issue is that people are thinking about "make the Pokémon that benefits Togekiss the most", not "make a Pokémon that benefits Togekiss more than it benefits other Pokémon". Clearly, a perfect mate for Togekiss under the first definition would be something clearly Uber that swept teams all by itself; after all, put it in a team with Togekiss and it'll probably win! But clearly, something's off with that. Look at Krilowatt as another example of the same issue; OK, so Magic Guard helps it as a customizable counter, but it helps it as a sweeper much more. This isn't "make a good Pokémon"; this is "make a specific Pokémon". The first doesn't teach us much about the metagame, the second does.

OK, things like Psychic are not the best type in the OU metagame at present. Does that really matter, though? We're not trying to create an utterly overpowered Pokémon here.

 

[black_cotton]

I support the inclusion of the Ground-type in the primary slate for typings. The reasons for this are all elaborated on below.

• Resists 2/3 of Togekiss's weaknesses

We're not creating a defensive core here, but at the same time, due to Togekiss's natural bulk and being slow, the core needs to be able to perform switches to one another well-enough. Ground is the only primary typing that immediately resists 2/3 of Togekiss's weaknesses.

• Resists Stealth Rock

This is something handy to start with for anything that plans to work with a Flying-type Pokemon. It is more a consequence of the first bullet, but it's so important that it deserves a note of its own.

• Thunder Wave immunity

Togekiss, no matter what it does, hates paralysis completely and totally. There are two ways to be immune to Thunder Wave: Ability and Typing. If we end up, in the future, forcing CAP11 to get an ability that renders him immune to Thunder Wave (Motor Drive, Volt Absorb, Limber), he will end up supporting other Pokemon better than Togekiss (Gyarados in particular). An Electric-type immunity can fit a Pokemon well into a team, but won't single it out to help out other Electric-weak Pokemon more than Togekiss. This keeps our CAP11 within the realm of "pairing best with Togekiss."

• Versatile Pairing

This isn't saying what our secondary typing will or should be, but rather suggests that Ground pairs excellently with a lot of different options that could work to great effect alongside Togekiss. This, for what it's worth, gives us variety in the secondary typing slate and encourages strong discussions there as well.

pretty much this... in my oppinion, the ice shared weakness is not a problem RIGHT KNOW since it can be easy to solve later with a secondary typing/ability.

the poison type even though it promotes some useful resistances the sheer type itself only resist one of togekiss weakness and fighting a neutral type but whtever, it just atracts ground moves which in my oppinion is predictable when you see a poke.

the eletric type it's the same thing as stated above it just have a better stab atack to use overall.

so i will say Ground.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Due to the diversity of jobs this pokemon needs to accomplish, I'm pretty much assuming that it's going to HAVE to be multityped to do it.

That having been said, I don't like the idea of a ground pokemon because it will pretty much HAVE to use its secondary typing to protect itself from ice, otherwise it leaves that as a glaring weakness of the team. And do we really need another Water/Ground when swampert already exists?

The other options to protect itself from ice (ground/ice | Ground/fire | ground/steel) still don't seem to have as much potential synergy with togekiss as that multitypings which could exist from choosing some OTHER type as the main type.


As for paralysis protection, as long as ONE of its two typings is electric, it would be easy to give this pokemon Volt Absorb or Motor Drive as abilities. So picking ground solely for that seems unecessary.

Now I understand that toge can pretty easily switch out and let CAP11 absorb hits for it if it is a ground type because it'll resist 2 of toge's weaknesses, but toge really won't have an easy time switching back in once CAP11 is out considering it's likely to draw water/ice. and ice is something that toge doesn't want to see.

 

[black_cotton]

Due to the diversity of jobs this pokemon needs to accomplish, I'm pretty much assuming that it's going to HAVE to be multityped to do it.

That having been said, I don't like the idea of a ground pokemon because it will pretty much HAVE to use its secondary typing to protect itself from ice, otherwise it leaves that as a glaring weakness of the team. And do we really need another Water/Ground when swampert already exists?

The other options to protect itself from ice (ground/ice | Ground/fire | ground/steel) still don't seem to have as much potential synergy with togekiss as that multitypings which could exist from choosing some OTHER type as the main type.


As for paralysis protection, as long as ONE of its two typings is electric, it would be easy to give this pokemon Volt Absorb or Motor Drive as abilities. So picking ground solely for that seems unecessary.

Now I understand that toge can pretty easily switch out and let CAP11 absorb hits for it if it is a ground type because it'll resist 2 of toge's weaknesses, but toge really won't have an easy time switching back in once CAP11 is out considering it's likely to draw water/ice. and ice is something that toge doesn't want to see.

ah sorry but this is a competitive discussion thread so flavor it's not up discussion here, we have to think a typing that benefit the synergy between both pokes...

with that been said aswering the first part that i bolded on your post, yes we need as long it does something that swampert does not and benefit the togekiss and cap11 is using the concept, why not? so be it... (take krillowatt as a example, is water/eletric just like lanturn but it does something completely different), but we are not discussion two types just the main typing ;p.

for the second part i bolded, once again this is a competitive poll so we can give it whatever ability we want as long it remains doing the concept job's, i mean the last time we were willing to give poison heal to a shrimp makes lot's of sense huh?

 

[Innocent Criminal]

The issue is that people are thinking about "make the Pokémon that benefits Togekiss the most", not "make a Pokémon that benefits Togekiss more than it benefits other Pokémon".

(..)

OK, things like Psychic are not the best type in the OU metagame at present. Does that really matter, though? We're not trying to create an utterly overpowered Pokémon here.[/QUOTE]

I agree that we need to specialize around Togekiss, but Psychic has terrible synergy with it. Pursuit weakness doesn't matter, but Ghost weakness is very bad, as Togekiss' most used counter is Rotom-A. Even if the opponent doesn't predict the obvious Togekiss switch and you manage to come in unscathed, Togekiss can't do anything to Rotom, as it really doesn't have room for Shadow Ball (just look at the server stats, it's not even listed).

I'm starting to think that Ground is a very bad choice. The reason is that although it may help out Togekiss, it helps out other Flying-types more. Just look at what happened when Collossoil was added to the OU metagame, for instance; Staraptor usage shot way up.

Not helping other Flying types is definitely a big concern. Has many others already stated, we need to focus on what really sets Togekiss apart from other Flying... But that's not his Ghost immunity (useless when your n°1 counter is Rotom-A anyway), but it's unique Special Flying STAB and very rare ability to pass Nasty Plot. Absorbing TWaves and beating Electrics is not only great for Togekiss but for every Flying type out there. Therefore, CAP11 should be able to somewhat deal with paralysis and electric types, but not designed specifically to do so.

Fighting-type is interesting, because it doesn't work so well with other Flyers but has great potential with Togekiss. STAB Fighting has the best offensive synergy with Togekiss' unique Flying STAB, and could greatly benefit from being passed Nasty Plots. It's also weak to Celebi, while Togekiss is the only Flyer that can beat it.

You might say that it has little defensive synergy with togekiss besides Rock resistance, but that's its main strength. Another caracteristic of Togekiss is that it fears Stone Edge a lot more than the BoltBeam combination (who shuts every other flyer down). By choosing a type who only synergizes with Togekiss' greatest weakness and unique STAB, we ensure that it won't help other flying-types too much. Then, there are many ways to make him work well with Togekiss (like great special coverage but no SpA boosting move), while you can't give it a move to make it less efficient with Gyarados.

A Ground type countering Rotom-A, Gengar and Zapdos would be great for Togekiss, but it would be even better for Gyarados.
Special Fighting type might not be as good, as a pokemon, but it has better offensive synergy with Togekiss than with any other pokemon, and that's what we're looking for.

 

[Reynbowz]

Long-time lurker/player, first-time poster. Hi guys.

I would like to avoid a Ground- typing, for multiple reasons, including A) Ground's poor service to the Paralysis issue, B) the type's resistences being minimal assets at most C) The mootness of Ground's of Electric "countering".

A) Ground-typing is a form of support that is more tailored to Flyers in general rather than Togekiss, and thus more useful to other Flyers such as Gyarados. I understand that the consensus is not to make a Mate for another 'mon. Though I believe Paralysis absorbtion very important in a parter for Togekiss, I believe it is more practical in some other form. An ability akin to Limber or Quick Feet can acheive this. A typing cannot acheive this discretion of "Para-blocking but not Electric-blocking", and so I find that Ground poorly services this effort.

B) I would like to point out that Togekiss' "Ice/Electric weaknesses" are not so severe. Its special bulk and the tendency for moves of these types to be special and unSTABed affords Togekiss the ability to take such supereffective hits when unSTABed. Togekiss only fears Electric off of Rotom-A, and Zapdos, and to a smaller scale on other Electrics such as Jolteon and Electivire. There are other types which can be used to defend against such Electrics which have more/better benefits.

C) On the offensive side of partnering arguments, I declare that ground's "countering" of Electric is of small worth. Togekiss' main Electric counters ( Zapdos, Rotom-A ) are immune to ground. Rotom-A commonly carries Hydro Pump or Leaf Storm in the CAP metagame to hit Colossoil. Furthermore, it has no STAB on Gyarados, Salamence, Aerodactyl, Skarmory or Bronzong. This leaves the Rock countering as the only asset. There are typings which have a greater number of advantages than this.

I am still processing which typings would be more useful. Steel, Rock and Poison seem promising, but I need to consider the subject longer before I support anything for certain.


tl;dr
A) Ground helps other Flyers more than Togekiss
B) Ground's resistences are not a huge asset against other typings
C) Ground is offensively not an ideal counter to Togekiss' main counters

 

[hlaalu]

It's established that Togekiss can mostly fend for itself where special hits are concerned. To this end I think the typing should take in to account the foremost physical threats of the metagame; namely Scizor, Salamence, Tyranitar and Gyarados.

When it comes to taking Scizor's, Salamence's and Tyranitar's STAB attacks steel obviously stand out, but then 3 of my mentioned threats commonly carry EQ, which admittedly give Togekiss a chance to switch in for free, but Togekiss will always struggle to sweep when these gargantuan physical threats are not crippled or eliminated. However a common check to all these threats is the good-old-fashioned physically bulky water. A water type, with appropriate base stats and movepool, with a ground secondary typing stands out as a possibility.

So, I feel Togekiss should have a physically defensive partner, and as such the partner must have a typing which complements it's physically bulky theme. These types are, in my opinion:

-Steel
-Water (provided it had an appropriate secondary typing)

 

[Little Battler]

I support poison

Poison resists fighting attacks that give Togekiss trouble and it doesn't share any weakness to Togekiss itself. Poison only has two weakness, namely ground and psychic. Psychic moves are rarely used in the OU metagame, and luring in ground moves will give Togekiss more chances to switch in. However, being poison typed means it lacks a STAB SE move to deal with Toge's counters. This, however, can be mitigated by a secondary typing.

I would also like to support psychic

Psychic also resists fighting, which is very helpful, and is also capable of drawing ghost typed attacks. On the other hand, it offers little else, it is a pursuit bait, and mons with STAB ghost moves usually carries fighting or electric moves as well (gengar, rotom). This, however, can be mitigated by allowing CAP 11 to outspeed and KO the ghosts using SE attacks, removing Toge's counters. On the note of pursuit, being able to outspeed the pursuit users would also allow it to OHKO with a SE move, or like someone has already said before, pass away to Togekiss. KOing the pursuiter is more favorable since the top OU pursuit users (tyranitar, scizor) can easily counter Togekiss. All in all, the psychic type is more intended to draw in counters and kill them, rather than resisting Toge's weaknesses.

 

[Reynbowz]

Did some thinking, it came down to Rock for me.

Counter-countering is the most important quality to me typing-wise. The types with the most complementary offensive potency are those of Fire, Electric and Rock. Rock comes on top smashing through the most of Toge's counters, hitting Gyara, Zapdos, Aerodactyl and Sal for supereffective STAB damage. The coverage leaves only Steels and the dreaded Rotom-A, which could still be OHKO'd off of the right attacks. To put icing on the cake, Rock has the added bonus of attracting Ground and Grass moves.

Overall, the good outweighs the bad more than any other typing. The defensive weaknesses are easily ameloriated through secondary typing. I'm putting my full support behind this one.

 

[superpoketroid]

I would like to support Psychic as we could build cap11 to lure and destory things like Rotom-a. It also resists Fighting moves like close combat which Togekiss has problems deling with.

Please tell me if i'm poll jumping but we could give cap11 baton pass which would make the pursuit weakness not to big off a deal.

 

[Yllnath]

Not to be a party pooper, but typing alone will never be able to counter all of Togekiss weaknesses, as it has many many weaknesses (Other than just Rock/Electric/Ice that come from typing) because of it's stats and movepool.

Having used both a lategame NP sweeper set with a team built around Kiss and a more stand alone late-game stall sweeper set (Twave, Roost, Nasty Plot, Air Slash), there are many issues Kiss faces depending on it's set. Bulky waters and grounds both don't really mind unSTABbed Aura Sphere's, and often have enough bulk to take Air Slashes. Both can hit back with SE Ice or Rock attacks respectively and they almost always have one of these on their sets because of good coverage options with their typing. Fighting types in general hit terrifying hard and even if Air Slash could hit hard, it's often not enough to counter them.
For example, Lucario does not take SE damage from Air Slash and hits back hard with CC, Breloom might take 4x damage, but is impossible to twave because of substitutes. Focus Punch mauls Togekiss in return. Machamp is rather bulky and DynamicPunch deals major damage too as well as giving Togekiss very unwanted Confusion.
Those 3 typings already make a lot of pokemon bad news for Togekiss. Then there are pokemon like Zapdos, Rotom-A, Gengar (with Tbolt), Jolteon, Evire, Starmie, Mamoswine, Weavile, Tyranitar and Scizor who all have the ability to utterly destroy Togekiss, all depending on which coverage moves Kiss is carrying.
To my knowledge, there isn't a single pokemon that could ever counter all these pokemon, to give Togekiss free sweeping. Unless it's uber.
So focusing on just defensive typing coverage when deciding the main type is not going to help Togekiss.

Keeping that in mind, Togekiss isn't low OU just because it lacks a good team mate. It suffers a great deal from 4 mss, poor defensive typing and more importantly, low speed. Just simply giving it 1 perfect mate isn't ever going to completely fix it, just because 1 pokemon can't ever single handedly fix all the issues Togekiss faces. At least not defensively.

It already has been mentioned, but what CAP11 can do to make the TogeCap combo very viable, is expand on what Togekiss is really adept at. Lategame NP sweeping and Nasty Plot passing.
What I think Togekiss needs most is something to be the breaker for things it's struggling with, (Where Togekiss is the pivot, as described by Deck Knight) benefitting from NPs (and Wishes) that can be passed from Togekiss and perhaps being able to pass back said NPs and/or additional boosts when CAP11's job is done and have Kiss do the late game cleaning up.

Since I feel that CAP11 should therefor be able to be the breaker for Togekiss, it should get a typing that has a strong STAB, also capable of taking care of many of the problematic pokemon described above. Instead of using it's typing to wall said threats, using it's typing to have a favourable matchup, when trying to kill them.

Water, even though it doesn't have much defensive synergy with Togekiss,has the benefit that it gives a strong, neutral STAB and gains access to strong Ice moves, just because of its type-type requirement.
Electric also packs a strong hit, but it's STAB is resisted by at least 4 electric type pokemons that Togekiss also has a hard time dealing with, therefor making Electric an inferior option.
Ground is a decent typing, both defensively and offensively, as ground takes out some of the Electrics (or all, with Gravity in effect, which would also in turn nullify Togekiss most common weaknesses) and hits stuff like Lucario, Scizor and Ttar decently. However, unless you make a specially based Ground type, getting a weaker Ground STAB move in Earth Power and weaker Rock coverage move in mostly Power Gem, it will not benefit from NP's being passed from Togekiss, which is something that is just too good to pass up on in a combo that is being built around Togekiss.

IMO, the only two really decent typings, offensively are Electric and Water and Ground coming in third.

I hope this made sense. I think we should be focusing on what typings complement Togekiss' sweepings potential, instead of what typings complement Togekiss in defensive potential.

 

[ATray]

The four most important qualities for typing here are a ground weakness (kiss' easiest switch in) rock and electric resistances (usually very powerful attacks, and are kiss' most exploitable weaknesses) or paralysis immunity (kiss hates being paralysed). The other qualities that are useful, but not necessary, are ice resistance, bug weakness, ghost weakness, and grass weakness, as kiss takes the majority of weak non-STAB ice attacks well with its good special defense, and ghost, bug and grass attacks are uncommon.

You can split it into the most important qualities, and the bonus qualities, awarding points to each type for each. Since it is important that CAP11 is neither resistant to ground, or weak to rock or electric, these qualities receive negative points. Paralysis immunity is a bonus here, as it is easily covered or the effect taken advantage of through abilities

Important (+2/-1):
Ground weak (Rock, Steel, Electric, Fire, Poison)
Rock resistant (Ground, Fighting, Steel)
Electric resistant (Electric, Ground, Grass, Dragon)

Bonus (+1):
Paralysis immunity/advantage (Ground, but also Quick Feet, Guts, Limber, Volt Absorb, Motor drive)
Ice resistant (Water, Ice, Steel, Fire)
Bug weak (Grass, Psychic, Dark)
Ghost weak (Psychic, Ghost)
Grass weak (Ground, Water, Rock)

This results in the following scores for each type:

Ground: 6
Steel: 5
Electric: 4
Rock: 3
Grass: 2
Fighting: 2
Dragon: 2
Poison: 2
Psychic: 2
Fire: 2
Ghost: 1
Dark: 1
Water: 1
Ice: 0

 

[swampmist1142]

well guys I think it's time I gave my opinions.
to start I would like to take a look at toga
main offensive moves: air slash, aura sphere
pokemon that resist this combination: rotom, zapdos

so, after analyzing this I see that we need a type that can resist toge's biggest weaknesses (rock,fighting) and also can counter the pokemon mentioned above.

so, I am going for Rock and\or Ghost (though I'll save the advantages of these together for later.)

Rock gives resistance to SR and lures in ground and grass types (which toga appreciates) as well as an excellent stab move

Ghost gives immunity to fighting as well as a good STAB to use against rotom as well as calling in other ghost (which usually means happy days for toga)

so if I crossed any lines or if you have objections please tell me.

 

[Maugoross]

Ground resists electric and rock but has a weakness to ice.
Fighting resists rock and neutral to electric and ice.
poison resists electric and neutral to ice and rock.

Personally I find this the most important types but Ground gets my vote. Why? there are more Stab users of Electric and Rock than of Ice. When an Ice move is used, its for most of the time a coverage attack with no Stab.
this means that Togekiss will get hit harder by Electric and Rock. It may survive Ice attacks but Stab Electric and Rock attacks can KO mostly.
Ground is immune to Electric and resists Rock and Rock attacks are mostly Physical and our Cap may be Physically bulky so these are no problem.

ground has the added bonus of immunity to Paralysis and resist stealth rock.

I'll vote Ground, fighting, Poison in that order.

 

[doominic77]

I support poison because

Poison resists fighting attacks that give Togekiss trouble and it doesn't share any weakness to Togekiss itself. Poison only has two weakness, namely ground and psychic. Psychic moves are rarely used in the OU metagame, and luring in ground moves will give Togekiss more chances to switch in. However, being poison typed means it lacks a STAB SE move to deal with Toge's counters. This, however, can be mitigated by a secondary typing.

Poison has strong moves (namely Cross Poison and Gunk Shot). If CAP 11 has good Atk and/or SAtk it can destroy Togekiss' counters and draw in types that Togekiss can destroy.

 

[Towelie]

I'm actually liking Fighting type because it handles Tyranitar with ease, as well as providing a resistance to Rock which is always helpful. It gets hit by Flying super effectively which is bad (because Togekiss is going to be EVERYWHERE) and Psychic which is almost non-existent. It also handles Blissey, providing it can go physical, and hits Steel types very hard with its powerful STAB moves, so I vote Fighting.

 

[ShravanP]

I think Psychic will make an extremely interesting choice. Thing is, we are trying to create a pokemon that has very good offensive synergy with Togekiss. But right now, there is a whole lot of focus on switching in safely instead of keeping offensive options open. In this regard, Psychic will prove to be a very interesting combo along with Togekiss' offensive capabilities, and we should not disregard it at this point due to concerns about covering weaknesses.

Offensively, Psychic types usually come with a fantastic Special repertoire that will really enjoy getting Nasty Plot boosts passed to it. On top of this, we have a lot of explore on the Physical side as well (not in the way of Psychic STAB itself, but otherwise). Psychic also tends to lure Ghost and Bug type moves, which Togekiss will enjoy. Defensively, the most important factor here is that it has no shared weaknesses with Togekiss! It resists the Fighting attacks that Togekiss tends to draw, and of Psychic's own three weaknesses, Togekiss resists two of them.

We will also have a huge deal of flexibility when it comes time to choose a secondary type. I can see Psychic meshing fantastically with a lot of the other types. We want to develop a well coordinated offense between Togekiss and CAP11, so the more offensive flexibility we leave, the better. Other types like Steel and Poison tend to be rather gimped on the offensive end. Electric, Ground, etc. are fine, but already have fine representatives in CAP. One of the biggest selling points for Psychic (for me at least) is that we've never tried it before!

Synergy-wise, I can't really see it meshing too well with any of the other popular fliers, so this is good.

That's about it, and that's a good thing! I feel that since our focus in this process is on offensive synergy, we should not try to cover all of Togekiss' weaknesses right away. Instead, let us choose a type that in and of itself has a great deal of flexibility and offers a few solid benefits that we can carry forward.

I don't really see the Pursuit weakness being much of an issue. The most common users are Tyranitar, Scizor, Weavile, and maybe Metagross. The only reason for CAP11 to switch out and eat a Pursuit is if it has no way to threaten those four. All we need to do to fix the Pursuit weakness is give it a way to KO or severely damage them.

 

[jynx KB]

For what it's worth, Electric is a fine type to start out with. It lures in Ground attacks that Togekiss can avoid, and is resistant to Electric itself, one of Togekiss's major weaknesses

Many are saying that Ground is the best option, as it is immune to Thunder Wave, and other electric attacks aimed at Togekiss. While I am jumping the gun here (sorry) Electric-types can also have access to Volt Absorb/Motor Drive (an interesting option to cover the agreed upon lower speed), creating an Electric immunity without basing it around type. Static can also help with Paralysis support that Togekiss likes.

I am not suggesting these as abilities, merely possibilities to note later.

I also don't get why Togekiss's partner needs to resist Stealth Rock when all it needs to do is not be weak to it for decent synergy. Don't forget, we can make CAP 11 a Rapid Spinner later on if it is deemed appropriate.

Psychic would be a useful type to go with Electric, whether it be the main or sub-type. Not only is the combination unique, it lures Ghost and Bug attacks, things that Togekiss is either immune or resistant to, and carries support moves that Togekiss could use for its benefit. Steel isn't necessary, as Togekiss hovers over Spikes/Toxic Spikes anyway.

Anyway, those are my votes.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

I'll just repeat myself again.

Nowhere in the concept is it written that this CAPmon has to benefit Togekiss without any gain for itself. This is not a "reversal of roles", it is mutual symbiosis.

Leading on from that, this is the way that I believe that the concept chould manifest itself as a CAP. This is merely an opinion, so doubtless irrelevant to many, so feel free to skip this if you would like. Alternatively, read it so that you know where I am coming from in my arguments. I believe, as I have stated, that this CAPmon has to have both offensive and defensive synergy with Togekiss. This much is quite obvious. Togekiss is an intriguing case in that it provides to a great extent what we are looking for in CAP11. The ability to constitute both an offensive and a defensive threat, and to support its teammate(s), is exactly what I am looking for in CAP11. To provide this, the typing has to accomodate both offensive and defensive strategies, regardless of what the overall intention is. I say "accomodate" not "focus on" as we have a clearly definable ibject in mind, but all possibilities may be considered. Constant switching requires defensive synergy, or the combination is worn down quickly. It is essential that this combination provides a threat to teams which is clearly identifiable, which is why offensive synergy is required.

However, one thing we cannot afford is to be complacent when considering which road to take. This means that conventional theorymon, as it is called, is limited in what it can achieve for us. A prime example of this is the Ghost-type argument. In theory, luring Shadow Balls for Togekiss to come in on is a good idea, but in practice, we have to consider so many other factors than this. The types that lure Shadow Ball are Psychic and Ghost, both of which are far more likely to lure Dark-type moves in OU, if I'm honest, as well as the fact that these two types don't lure any other types of moves, and don't have any offensive or defensive synergy besides that, AND the two Pokemon who use Shadow Ball as their main STAB are Rotom-A and Gengar. Neither of whom Togekiss really wants to be in against. Similarly, we cannot simply say that our typing should lure Grass or Bug attacks because those Pokemon that use it as STAB can all pretty much marmalise it with a different attack. So, we have to think of the effect that will take place in a competitive context, not simply that which appears on paper.

So, consider this. The metagame will change when this new CAPmon is introduced - you can absolutely count on that. So, what we want to happen when this new CAP is introduced is the reaction of the metagame to an offensive threat, as per precedent. Hence, what we want to happen is the shift or orientation of the metagame towards Pokemon that Togekiss can deal with but other Pokemon can't. So, to deal with this threat, the counters should ideally be bulky Ground-types such as Swampert and Hippowdon, or weaker offensive Water-types such as Vaporeon. Hence, a metagame shift that benefits Togekiss. Zapdos dislikes Swampert and co, while Gyarados dislikes Vaporeon and Celebi. But Togekiss deeply appreciates this state of affairs, hence why I feel that this is the effect we should be going for.

/end speech. Now, some reasoning as to why certain types just don't make the cut:

Psychic hinges almost in its entirety around being able to lure in foes such as Tyranitar and Scizor and OHKO. Aside from that it does nothing. You may say that it can lure in Ghost-type moves, but realistically, what Ghost-type does Togekiss stand a chance of beating? Rotom-A is one of the best Togekiss counters around, and Gengar isn't going to switch in on a Psychic-type. And even if it did, Togekiss can't really afford to switch in due to Thunderbolt:

Unboosted Timid Gengar Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP Togekiss: 49.2% - 58.3%

And even then, most Gengar run Substitute nowadays. There are infinite things in the game that benefit from the removal of Scizor and whatnot - Togekiss is not exactly the greatest Pokemon to take advantage of that. It really isn't going to help that much - especially considering the wealth of other options at our disposal. Conversely, it just gets worse - If you can Pursuit-trap with the right Pokemon, the combination is ruined. There really isn't any point to a combination if you can't abuse it, and the sheer increase to possibility of disappearing so early on in the battle is not exactly enticing. Psychic gives us no defensive synergy, no offensive synergy, and just seems like a gimmick option. If our collective desire to "try something new" is stronger than our competitive reasoning, then this is probably the best option that there is. Otherwise I don't see the attraction. There is no symbiosis. There is no synergy, and the desired metagame effect does not happen. Instead of making Ghosts and Tyranitar and Scizor less common, it encourages them to be more common. This state of affairs does not benefit Togekiss.

As far as the Ground-type goes, some of you are really, really underestimating the effect of the double weakness to Ice-type moves here. If the combination is as effective as the concept would lead us to believe, I can almost guarantee that every team will begin restocking on Ice-type moves to break it (of course, if it isn't as effective, nobody will bother and likely the concept will have failed). Mamo goes up, Starmie goes up, all bulky Waters with Ice Beam. The concept can still work, but certainly not as effectively, especially if it can be broken up by a single move type that actually has so much utility already in this metagame. One move on many Pokemon that easily breaks this combination is a bad thing, a very bad thing. Then we come to the last part - the part where the metagame is affected by the inclusion of a new Ground-type. Flying-types come to mind as increasing, which is definately not what Togekiss wants, never mind the fact that other Pokemon can use this sort of support much more effectively than Togekiss. Gyarados and Zapdos spring to mind.

And as for Water and Steel. Where on earth did they come from? I can see what some people are thinking, as they do partner well with Togekiss to a certain extent. But that's exactly the point, isn't it? These two types are extremely popular because they pair well with just about everything. Almost every team can use a bulky Water or Steel because they patch up so many very important weaknesses. Togekiss's improvement from this addition is basically null, as so many other things partner with them better. With regards to the metagame change brought about by the inclusion of CAP11, a strong Water-type will most likely lower the effect of Flying-types and Dragons in general, while at the same time increasing the use of Grass-types... but this means pretty much nothing to Togekiss, as the metagame change will more or less pass it over. The same is true for another Steel-type.

So, I've briefly explained why those four types are impractical and not really the best choices. So, now the popular types that I favour, namely Rock, Electric, and Poison:

They all pretty much do the same thing, which is to orientate the metagame around stopping assaults from those sorts of Pokemon. All three can increase the usage of bulky Ground-types and, minus Electric, increase the usage of bulky Water-types as well. This relies heavily on the "counter mentality" remaining true in this metagame, but I think that this is not too unlikely an assumption to make in terms of the reaction we want to create. Poison is an interesting case in that it creates a more defensive situation compared to the other, but going on what Fuzznip has said about this being a primarily offensive partnership, I would have to select Rock and Electric above all others.

EDIT: @Raikaria:

Yes, Steel STAB isn't gonna get people jumping for joy, but the concept is to help the OU pokemon sweep. WE ARE NOT BUILDING A SWEEPER. If this thing can sweep, we've failed in our concept, and made a pokemon that benifits from Togekiss, more than Togekiss benifits from it. Electric and Ground are both capable of Sweeping with their good stabs. Steels, less so. Lucario dosen't use Steel STAB, nor does Emploeon, nor does CM Jirachi, and Metagross just has absurd attack, a chance to raise it, immunity to Intimidate, and even then needs Agilty to really sweep.

When did we decide we were not building a sweeper? As far as I can see, the concept was "Perfect Mate" not "Perfect Supporter". Nowhere in the concept is it written that this CAPmon has to benefit Togekiss without any gain for itself. This is not a "reversal of roles", it is mutual symbiosis. This is necessary for the CAP to succeed, otherwise there is literally no benefit to using Togekiss over any other special Flying-type, or even special sweeper full stop. The CAPmon IS supposed to benefit from Togekiss AND Togekiss is meant to benefit from it. Mates look out for each other. The combination has to be cohesive or there is no competitive value. I'm sorry to put it bluntly, but it seems that your opinion does not seem to match the concept at all.

 

[Raikaria]

I don't like this concept and don't normally participate in CAP at all, but here's some thoughts.

Togekiss's main counters are not Tyranitar or Scizor. They are both easily beaten by Togekiss's most common NP set. Rotom-A and Zapdos are EASILY much bigger threats. Also, Thunderbolts are really not terrible for Togekiss, they never OHKO without STAB and a boost. I feel a lot of users are weighing in who really have no concept as to how NP Togekiss works.

A Ground type is the obvious choice. Rotom-A and Zapdos both can't use their primary STAB against it, and it also could help with stuff like Metagross and Jirachi which are similarly pests to Togekiss. Any other choice simply doesn't have any inherent advantage on Togekiss's two actual counters rather than assuming "oh it's normal flying so it must hate ice beam" Factor in an SR resist and Thunder Wave immunity and you have butter.

A Ground type also cannot do anything BACK to Rotom-A and Zapdos with it's primary STAB. Metagross and Jirachi can wall Togekiss, they'll kill it before it can NP up enough to kill them. Ice Beam is also easily one of the most common attacks, and lureing those isn't exactly benifical, especially the bulky Waters a Ground-type will draw, the ones which pack Ice Beam, and have the bulk to take Togekiss' attacks.

Scarftar counters NP Togekiss with Stone Edge. Scizor can easily revenge a weakened Togekiss with Bullet Punch.


Anyway, now there are two main types being discussed right now. I still think Steel is the superior choice, however.

An Electric type only covers Togekiss' weakness to Electric, and it's STAB can't do anything to things like Zapdos and Rotom-A, in fact, it's unlikly, without specific moves given, that an Electric-typed CAP11 will be able to defeat these aformentioned pokemon.

Tyranitar will also be difficult to defeat, particually Scarftar, unless CAP11 gets the bulk to take TWO Stone Edges + SR + Sandstorm Damage, AND move to OHKO Scarftar.

While an Electric type can draw Earthquakes, it's also eutral to Rock. This means, seeing as a switch to a flyer/levitator is obvious when faced with an Earthquake user, Stone Edge is the likly move, from the Quakeslide combo.

I feel an Electric typed CAP11 does nothing against 4 of the 5 major things stopping Togekiss [Zapdos, Rotom-A, Blissey, and Tyranitar, but it 'can' handle Scizor, to some degree], and might put Togekiss in MORE peril, due to being weak to Earthquake, AND taking heavy damage from Rock-typed attacks.

The Ground type seems interesting at first glance. However, the paralysis resistance isn't that useful, who's seriously going to go out of their way to Paralyse something that's already slow for the teir? Sure, it absorbs Electric-typed attacks. However, the Ground-type draws Bulky Waters like flies. Bulky Waters carry Ice Beam. Togekiss dislikes Ice Beams. The Ground type also offers nothing for Togekiss to switch in on, realistically. Who's gonna send in something with a grass-type move to deal with a Ground-type, over a Bulky Water?

My guns are still for Steel. Yes, it's done to death. Yes, there's too many Steels in OU. However, Steel Resists Rock, and Ice, leaving just Electric.

Togekiss isn't a lightweight Specially, so Fire type attacks are less of a issue. Togekiss is neutral to Fighting [And not many Fighting types are gonna stay in on Togekiss], and immune to Ground.

Meteor Mash can deal with Tyranitar, and, to some degree, Blissey. That's better than the Electric type is doing. Only Rotom-A and Zapdos remain dangerous, the former mauled by SR, the latter mauled by Scarftar or Scizor.

Yes, Steel STAB isn't gonna get people jumping for joy, but the concept is to help the OU pokemon sweep. WE ARE NOT BUILDING A SWEEPER. If this thing can sweep, we've failed in our concept, and made a pokemon that benifits from Togekiss, more than Togekiss benifits from it. Electric and Ground are both capable of Sweeping with their good stabs. Steels, less so. Lucario dosen't use Steel STAB, nor does Emploeon, nor does CM Jirachi, and Metagross just has absurd attack, a chance to raise it, immunity to Intimidate, and even then needs Agilty to really sweep.

 

[Ian15]

I think it should be psychic because of the huge fighting resist it provids and that there are very little good offensive OU psychics, Azelf and Starmie. Both never use their psychic stab as much as their other moves. We could just make a great psychic move. We made Shadow strike.

 

[firecape]

Ok I'm new to CAP so stay with me, but I really dislike steel as a typing. The point of the Pokemon is to be a perfect mate, but if it gets trapped by Magnezone its no good to anyone. We could give it U-turn or Baton Pass, but that is still taking up a moveslot which most Pokemon cant really afford to do. Its secondary typing could be Ground to keep Magnezone at bay, but I still think thats over doing it- Having to give it a second typing too make up for the faults of the first. Therefore I support Ground or Psychic as primary typings, I would be happy with either as each of them have the advantages/disadvantages stated by the many posters before me.