Kyurem

[PK Gaming]

Stats are quite a large variable when considering how a pokemon performs. His bulk is considerable, it will be very hard to OHKO him, especially in OU. As for 130/130 attack... Salamence was banned from OU for having 135/110 attack... and salamence didn't have a secondary STAB.

Any bulk he may have from stats is immediately destroyed by his typing. Stealth Rock Weakness + Ice typing = / = make you bulky, even if you have 125 / 95 / 95 defenses. It's not as simple as that... Salamance wasn't primarily banned because of his 130/110 attacking stat, but because of what he could do with them. (Mixed wall breaker, DD etc) with a high speed stat.

On the subject of STAB, ice really isn't that bad. The main negatives are weakness to SR (which isn't a tm now, and is easy to spin) and bullet punch(Unboosted Scizor cannot OHKO), Ice/ dragon kind of trip over each other a bit offensively yes, but STABed ice beam will OHKO garchomp/ Salamence/ Shaymin-s/ Rayquaza even if they run yache. That is something STAB dragon does not guarantee. Talking of STAB dragon, 130/130 attacks hurt. a lot.

Ice is pretty useful offensive STAB but very redundant on a Dragon-type. You really think Garchomp / Shaymin-S / Rayquaza are going to be taking a STAB Draco Meteor? The Ice typing does NOTHING for him. And Defensively it's just horrible. Stealth Rock Weakness, Fighting Weakness(Mach Punch), Steel Weakness(Bullet Punch), Loss of fire resistance, Dragon Weakness and he gains a measly neutrality to Ice. Also you do realize you can migrate gen 4 pokemon --> gen 5 right? Stealth rocks is staying. The bolded comment is absolutely pointless.

Frozen world will stop a DD sweep, and damage the user. That is huge in a metagame full of offensive dragons like salamence and Rayquaza. This furthers Kyuremu's usefulness as a counter ultility.

...How? 1+ Mence, Ono, Ray all OHKO with Outrage after Stealth Rock damage. How is switching in?

His movepool limits his versatility, but his Stats allow a very offensive mixed spread, or a defensive one, depending on what synergy you want with your team. Kyuremu will definitely find a few niches in whichever metagame it finds itself (looks to be Uber, but that is obviously still contraversial). Kyuremu looks to be more of a counter ultility and stall breaker, so maybe it will make OU and be counteracted by what looks to be a very offensive metagame. Who knows? Definitely needs to be tested in-game, theorymon is limited

You can't go defensive with an Ice typing and no support moves. Why would you ever even consider that? Kyuremu also lends himself to get walled rather easily (he has to rely on Focus Blast to get by a couple of his counters, and even then, sometimes he can't get by them period) so I don't think he'll breaking stall anytime soon.

You haven't even touched gen 5 yet and you clearly have no idea what your talking about.

 

[SJCrew]

You're going way too far with this anti-Kyu tirade. Really.

For one, typing does not change your natural bulk, no matter how bad it is. Try Rhyperior for instance. It's not bulky because of its 4x weakness to Grass and Water, as well as its weakness to Fighting and Ground, two very common attacking types, right? Nope, not at all. Even though its defensive typing is horrible, come in on Swellow and watch how much damage it tries to do. Come in on CB Tomb locked into Sucker Punch and the damage output won't be much higher.

Let's move to OU (Gen 4, for the sake of the argument). Come in on Celebi with Kyu. lol damage. Rotom? lol. Empoleon, Magnezone, Suicune, Zapdos, Starmie, Vaporeon, Roserade, Jolteon...none of those guys can even think about touching him. Matter of fact, his defensive typing allows him to come on almost any bulky Water or Grass type and set up a sub.

Also, consider for a moment the scarce distribution of Stealth Rock, plus the possibility of Rapid Spin before you get too used to the idea Kyu auto-losing 25% of its health.

 

[Saria]

Look, you're completely mistaking the pro-Kyuremu argument. Its not a sweeper

I agreed with you here he cant sweep, but he also cant wall break, or support the team or anything so why use him?

, lets get that out the way.
ScarfTar is hardly a counter. It can only come in on a Dragon move, as both Frozen World and Focus Blast will give it only a 30% chance of surviving (e.g. Focus Blast misses - of course it can switch out after Frozen World)

.
You want to use 2 move without perfect accuracy to beat scarftar fine you beat it if you hit twice

Nattorei clearly doesn't wall HP Fire versions, which could be fairly common, except in Rain.

Im too lazy to make exact calcs right now but using dragon rider calcs: Focus Blast vs.Natorrei 252/252+= 53.4%-63.1%, FB vs natoreii have 240BP, HP fire is BP210 so if natoreii wants to beat every single version he can, gyro ball have great chances of KO after LO damage and SR (secure KO with 1 layer of spikes, SS damage, little prior damage etc)

, Heatran clearly doesn't wall it either. Only a Choice Specs set can threaten to KO Kyuremu quickly, while it can KO with some Focus Blasts

Scarf Hetran is a secure 2hko with dragon pulse (good chances with SR and little prior damage) and again using dragon rider calcs defensive hetra can switch in on any but focus blast roar him out and have 40%+ of live, pretty good counter if you ask me

, . Also, how in the name of God do you expect Metagross to KO it with Earthquake? I think you mean Meteor Mash

If you dont remember you put magnezone as kyuremu perfect partner, and EQ is a OHKO, meteor mash is also a OHKO on kyuremu after SR, and metagross can survive a hit set up agility and sweep

, You also seem to be under the impression that most Kyuremu sets will be screwed by being Will-o-wisped. Its special movepool is much better - Outrage and Stone Edge, neither of which really suit it, are the only physical options.

Here is where you really fail latios, latias, salamence, and zazando outclass special version (salamence outclass every version anyways), all with superior speed, movepool and type. Also if you dont think WoW kills you remember you lose 12% of health every turn, and you all your attacks do lol damage to the jellyfish at -2 and he can recover stall, and if you dont use draco meteor you cant take more than 45% from the jellyfish and again you lose to recover stall.

, Dragons with +95 speed can only get rid of it if they come in after a KO. Again, all of its dragon moves will KO, and Frozen World will OHKO most and halve the speed of others. If they do come in after a KO, then the same arguments you've just been touting for why Kyu is walled easily come into play - they can't kill it without using Draco Meteor or Outrage, and suddenly, surprise, they can't touch Jirachi / Metagross etc. This relies on some decent prediction from the Kyu user, but the point still stands.

Learn the difference between checks and counter, and then read this part again. Prediction isnt a valid point, salamence, zazando, garchomp hell even flygon can predict a switch to steel and at worst 2hko them, something kyuremu cant without spaming the unreliable focus blast

, Your argument about Boiling Water is completely ridiculous. Don't take offense but it is. First, are you saying that nothing which uses physical attacks should stay in against a water type? Secondly, if it gets unluckily burnt, its a nuisance but I can't see it having more than one physical move on any set. It can then set up a Sub, giving it a safety net to Frozen World whatever comes in. Remember, its a 30% chance.

How many times you played gen 5? none right?, so if you dont know jack shit dont talk like if you know it. NO decent player will ever switch a physical sweeper directly to a water type, boiling water is by far one of the best move introduced in gen 5, nothing is worse than losing your sweeper just because you fell balsy enought to switch in

, Ice IS useful. Listen, please. Outrage and Draco Meteor score pretty much the same KO's, with exceptions. However, one halves your Sp.A, and the other locks you in. If you can avoid using them, you should unless you're sure the Steels are gone.

Ice is a good attack type but is a horrendus type to have, having an ice STAB dont worht all the weakness, only two pokemons ice are ou, one with SR neutrality and the other have an amazing speed and attack (still both are average at best)

, Intimidate and DD and perfect coverage make Salamence a better sweeper. No one has questioned that, its obvious. KYUREMU IS NOT A SWEEPER. It doesn't have the moves or the typing. What it does have over Salamence and others are its ability to abuse Frozen World alongside its stats and Substitute (possibly). It won't plow through a team, but there are quite a few pokemon which it can set up a Sub against, KO the switch in unless its Jirachi or Metagross, and then leave having taken almost nothing.

using substitue with a pokemon weak to all entry hazards (specially SR) and no SS inmunity is BAD, specially when you have hard counters capable of swtiching every time they want.Best case scenario you lose 50% after SR and sub, at worst you lose 75%+ of health after sub, not that useful right?

, Last, since this is getting long, the "God Stone" (doesn't that sound dumb? Its on Serebii's item list anyhow) isn't an attempt by me to build Kyu up. I'm implying it probably has significance in the next game, like Griseous Orb and Giratina. However, you don't know anything about it either, so you can't presume what its effects are.

Lets say it work like griseous orb changing giratina from a defensive version toa more offensive version. Kyuremu stats is for an offensive pokemon (even if he is bad on that), so he will transform into a defensive version (assuming it works like griseous orb), and a defensive ice type is a joke, ask regice.

, Edit: Just a brief note, but Metagross doesn't counter particularly effectively either. I did some calcs using a LO MOdest Glaceon with Icy Wind, which is pretty close to a Kyu with Frozen World (okay so its slightly more but bear with me). Icy Wind / Frozen World is doing approx. 20%, and Draco Meteor is doing 50% or so when you add on STAB. Thats a lot of damage for a Metagross to switch into when you assume its also taking team duties for stopping Sazando/Salamence :)

You are right not many pokemon can kill something after they counters are dead or weak enought, only every single sweeper and wallbreaker but thats it[/sarcasm]. Using you calcs metagross can use agility, he will be at +1, not that good, but is enought to outspeed and KO kyuremu and having still 30% of health

EDIT:

Also i cant see how a sub version with only special attack is good, specially when you aren't doing shit to any bulky water where you try to setup, and the worst part is that you cant "wallbreak" when you are scratching blissey

 

[PK Gaming]

You're going way too far with this anti-Kyu tirade. Really.

For one, typing does not change your natural bulk, no matter how bad it is. Try Rhyperior for instance. It's not bulky because of its 4x weakness to Grass and Water, as well as its weakness to Fighting and Ground, two very common attacking types, right? Nope, not at all. Even though its defensive typing is horrible, come in on Swellow and watch how much damage it tries to do. Come in on CB Tomb locked into Sucker Punch and the damage output won't be much higher.

Let's move to OU (Gen 4, for the sake of the argument). Come in on Celebi with Kyu. lol damage. Rotom? lol. Empoleon, Magnezone, Suicune, Zapdos, Starmie, Vaporeon, Roserade, Jolteon...none of those guys can even think about touching him. Matter of fact, his defensive typing allows him to come on almost any bulky Water or Grass type and set up a sub.

Also, consider for a moment the scarce distribution of Stealth Rock, plus the possibility of Rapid Spin before you get too used to the idea Kyu auto-losing 25% of its health.

Rhyperior has access to Solid Rock which increases his bulk quite noticeably actually. He also isn't Stealth Rock weak, therefore increasing his bulk dramatically. I'd would like to point out that half of them can cripple you with Status, while Jolteon and Starmie 2HKO with stealth rocks. (Specs T-bolt is a 2HKO with rocks while Starmie 2HKOes with Hydro Pump + Ice Beam)

And your wrong about the scarcity of Stealth Rocks, it' still as common as ever.

You can migrate gen 4 pokemon into gen 5.

There's just way to much hype in this thread... save it for Salamence and Rayquaza.

 

[Saria]

HP Fire vs Nattorei is 280 BP.
And how can't Kyuremu wallbreak with 130 in both offenses and STAB 120/140 BP attacks?
Only Jirachi and Metagross seem to be complete safe from its attacks, everything else is potentially OHKO or 2HOk'd.

Yeah that was a misscalc of my part (i multyplied x3 intead of x4), but my point is still the same natoreii survives and KO.

A wallbreaker is pokemon capable of beating most common walls, like infernape, salamence and dragonite thanks to the combination of move and stats. Kyuremu have the stats but dont have the movepool to be a reliable wallbraker, and i already posted a list of reliable counters to kyuremu not just metagross and jiriachi, i can tell you by actual playtesting, not theoryming out of my ass like 90% of the ppl in this thread, he isnt a threat to stall or offensive teams (i used both type of teams), and i have to add in my stall team the only steel type i used was natoreii.

 

[bubbly]

"Actual playtesting" at the moment is barely better than theorymonning for all the people screwing it. Sure, its helpful, but what's happening when people first start playing is probably going to be pretty different to even in a months time.

Wallbreaking isn't really Kyu's cup of tea either. Rayquaza's last post was great, by the way.

The guy's hating Kyuremu point out that there are a large number of things which can OHKO or 2HKO it due to weaknesses. The majority of these it can OHKO back, only 2 of them (Jirachi and Metagross) are completely safe, and Metagross stands to lose most of its HP anyway. It comes down to prediction and team support on both sides.

At the same time, like SJCrew pointed out (and most other people in this thread), Ice/Dragon is actually nice for taking the entire movesets of many grass, electric, and water types, all of which look like being pretty common. While its not going to run through teams for obvious reasons, it can still do huge pile of damage behind a Sub. It does have Reflect and Dragon Tail for support options if you need them.

Someone said something about the difference between a "check" and a "counter". Yup, a check is something that can "check" the pokemon - stop it from doing a pile of damage to your team. A counter is something which can beat it pretty much unconditionally, e.g. HP Electric Vaporeon counters Gyarados.
From memory that same person touted a ScarfTran with Dragon Pulse as a good "counter" to Kyuremu, when with their own calcs they basically proved its just a decent check which relies on Focus Blast missing to avoid losing most of its HP. Its certainly no guarantee to outspeed either with Frozen World, so switching in isn't a great idea (especially as you'll then be Choice-locked into Dragon Pulse when you do attack anyway).

Stop hating on Kyuremu - its obvious from your posts that you are determined to make Kyuremu seem as bad as possible. Last time I posted about the special "stone" item that might change Kyu's form in the next game, I asked you not to make guesses about what it might do (which you did before and concluded that because the unknown item will do such and such, Kyu is shit so why use it?).
But you did it again; because Kyu's stats are "offensive" now (and they're not compared to other Ubers) you assume it will have a defensive form, which will obviously be rubbish because Ice types are rubbish. Ergo, there's no point in thinking Kyu will get better, because its rubbish and will always be.

I'm not meaning to target you Bad Romance specifically. Lots of what you say is true, but you keep ignoring the mitigating factors and it does seem as if you just want it to be bad.

 

[Saria]

"Actual playtesting" at the moment is barely better than theorymonning for all the people screwing it. Sure, its helpful, but what's happening when people first start playing is probably going to be pretty different to even in a months time.

Wallbreaking isn't really Kyu's cup of tea either. Rayquaza's last post was great, by the way.

The guy's hating Kyuremu point out that there are a large number of things which can OHKO or 2HKO it due to weaknesses. The majority of these it can OHKO back, only 2 of them (Jirachi and Metagross) are completely safe, and Metagross stands to lose most of its HP anyway. It comes down to prediction and team support on both sides.

At the same time, like SJCrew pointed out (and most other people in this thread), Ice/Dragon is actually nice for taking the entire movesets of many grass, electric, and water types, all of which look like being pretty common. While its not going to run through teams for obvious reasons, it can still do huge pile of damage behind a Sub. It does have Reflect and Dragon Tail for support options if you need them.

Someone said something about the difference between a "check" and a "counter". Yup, a check is something that can "check" the pokemon - stop it from doing a pile of damage to your team. A counter is something which can beat it pretty much unconditionally, e.g. HP Electric Vaporeon counters Gyarados.
From memory that same person touted a ScarfTran with Dragon Pulse as a good "counter" to Kyuremu, when with their own calcs they basically proved its just a decent check which relies on Focus Blast missing to avoid losing most of its HP. Its certainly no guarantee to outspeed either with Frozen World, so switching in isn't a great idea (especially as you'll then be Choice-locked into Dragon Pulse when you do attack anyway).

Stop hating on Kyuremu - its obvious from your posts that you are determined to make Kyuremu seem as bad as possible. Last time I posted about the special "stone" item that might change Kyu's form in the next game, I asked you not to make guesses about what it might do (which you did before and concluded that because the unknown item will do such and such, Kyu is shit so why use it?).
But you did it again; because Kyu's stats are "offensive" now (and they're not compared to other Ubers) you assume it will have a defensive form, which will obviously be rubbish because Ice types are rubbish. Ergo, there's no point in thinking Kyu will get better, because its rubbish and will always be.

I'm not meaning to target you Bad Romance specifically. Lots of what you say is true, but you keep ignoring the mitigating factors and it does seem as if you just want it to be bad.

Not matter what i said you keep thinking he is good, use him and tell me the resuslts, is pointless keep discusting take this an be happy http://pokemon-online.eu/forums/showthread.php?1958-5th-gen-alpha-testing, dont fell bad when you discover he suck balls, i wasnt trying to act like an a-hole and show everyone they are wrong, im just trying to ppl stop over hyping him, i did the same with onokusu theorymoning everything possible and ended being a dissapointment

 

[Wafflez]

Ice is a good attack type but is a horrendus type to have, having an ice STAB dont worht all the weakness, only two pokemons ice are ou, one with SR neutrality and the other have an amazing speed and attack (still both are average at best)

More like....1 is awesome and has a lot of unique stuff about him and noobs seem to be really really fond of the other...=P.
Although i hole heartedly agree that Kyuremu is nothing special and is probably going to be somewhere in the middle of OU (10-30th in usage but most because of noobs as they seem to be fond of shiny stuff quite a lot) and he will face stiff competetion from Celebi as OU's "Cool poke with gay typing" poke.I really do think you are making it seem like completely useless.I suppose it should deserve a little more credit for firing off the Strongest Draco Meteors in OU and i suppose it could work in hail teams but thats just me and my dumb ass theorymons....Kyu isn't all that of a bad poke compared to simple OU standards but its just the fact that there are 20 other scary ass Dragons that can rape everything up makes him seem kind of bad and since it is going to be competing for the moveslot of the Dragon in teams...Atleast Dragonite has something to laugh at now...

 

[Dragon Rider]

You want to use 2 move without perfect accuracy to beat scarftar fine you beat it if you hit twice

To be fair,Frozen World is 95% accurate so only Focus Blast is unreliable.

There's just way to much hype in this thread... save it for Salamence and Rayquaza.

I don't know about hype.I haven't really seen anybody yell broken or anything.People have wanted an Ice/Dragon more for asthetic reasons than competetive ones, so when they get one that actually has uses they will talk about it.

dont fell bad when you discover he suck balls

This is a little extreme.He's not the greatest wall or sweeper but he has uses and is an interesting pokemon.


Also for people talking about how bad his typing is I would like to point out 2 OU pokemon with arguable typing-Celebi and Tyranitar.

Celebi has 7 weaknesses (1 of which is a 4x) and 6 resistances.Offensively it covers 5 types while being resisted by 8 and 1 is immune.Since it keeps getting brought up,Celebi is resisted by Steel on both STABs.

Tyranitar has 6 weaknesses (1 of which is 4x) and 6 resistances and 1 immunity.Offensively it covers 6 and is resisted by 5.Of note its STABs can't get around fighting or steel types.Its also weak to priority fighting and steel moves (sound familiar?).

Kyurem has 4 weaknesses and 3 resistances.Offensively it covers 4 and is resisted by 4.

So Kyurem has a simlilar Weak-Resist ratio as these 2 while not having a 4x weakness at all.On the attack it is even between resists and super effective.

His typing has obvious drawbacks (redundant offense,priority weak,SR) but other pokemon with more weaknesses make their way around OU and there is nothing saying Kyurem couldn't do the same with its dragon moves,Frozen World, and high BST.

The bigger problem is shallow coverage and is a movepool issue not a typing issue.Tyranitar has EQ so it can cover more.This is not available in Kyurem and is a strike against it.Not going to deny it.

 

[sexyrandal105]

I could totally see this guy getting a second form in the inevitable Pokemon Grey that will make his design not suck. I wish he looked as cool as Reshiram or Zekrom, because his typing is awesome.

 

[Lucindril]

Have you heard this guy's battle music? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pO7lwU68x8k&feature=related

That music just made me gain the utmost respect for him. Kyurem forever.

(right, that was completely irrelevant to what everyone else was talking about, but I felt the need to vent the awesomeness of his non-competitive merits somewhere)

 

[MoogleEnsign]

problem is that ice dragon is the definition of redundancy.

 

[TPM]

Redundant or not this is stilla dragon with 130 in both attacking stats, so it only needs Draco Meteor and Outrage to cause major damage.

 

[bubbly]

Mmm, Specs Draco Meteor is something that hasn't actually been mentioned much. Instead of catching the switch with Frozen World and then decide what to do, it can just hit the crap out of literally ANYTHING which comes in. Jirachi and Metagross aren't safe at all if they get hit by one of these.
Sure the SR weakness hampers its Choice viability, but I think that's abated somewhat by the fact that there's only a handful of pokemon which don't get OHKO'd. Just to demonstrate, a Choice Specs Modest Rayquaza with 92 spAtk ev's (to match 252 ev'd Kyu) does 55-65% on Scarf Jirachi, 61.3-72.4% on ScarfTran, and up to 48% on a WishBliss. These are most of the pokemon which can take the hit. Pretty much everything else just gets wiped out even without SR.

 

[Costafire]

I was going to mention, the Serebii ItemDex has just gone up, and addition to the light and Dark Stones which are attributed to Reshiram and Zekrom, there's something called a "God Stone", grey and the same shape as these other two, which seems sure to be Kyu's special item. The other two Stones supposedly "restore" Resh and Zekrom; it makes a lot of sense if this last Stone gives Kyu a better form.

The Reshiram and Zekrom stones are just storyline items, they're not hold items. The God stone is probably not in Black/White at all, and we'll have to wait for the 3rd game to see what it does. It may very well just be a storyline item in that game too.

 

[Tortferngatr]

Has anyone discussed that Kyuremu gets the strongest Blizzard in the game, and by extension the strongest Ice move in the game? A Claw Sharpen set with Blizzard+Focus Blast/HP Fire+Dragon Claw/Stone Edge/Outrage+Claw Sharpen could get interesting, to say nothing of Kyuremu's potential on Hail teams. It might be a bit outclassed as a Dragon-type, but as an Ice-type it outclasses most others. I think that STAB Ice might be what saves it from being totally outclassed.

 

[Agent123]

Ice-types in general aren't very good. Outclassing them isn't a very big achievement.

 

[Tortferngatr]

...Yeah, I'm a bit of a noob on this. But could a mixed Claw Sharpen set be viable? Kyuremu is the only Pokemon that gets Claw Sharpen+Blizzard and can actually use it, given its 130 base special attack for Blizzard/Focus Blast and VERY usable 130 base attack for Stone Edge/Dragon Claw/Outrage, as well as decent speed and bulk (well, before typing is factored in at least...).

EDIT: The set definitely does better with convenient removal of Burunkeru, who is only 2-shotted by +1 Outrage (which has its obvious drawbacks) at max defense/HP. Natoorei is no problem for it: Focus Blast 2HKO's with spikes in play, and I think even with resisted SR it KO's.

 

[Arcticblast]

Has anyone discussed that Kyuremu gets the strongest Blizzard in the game, and by extension the strongest Ice move in the game?

Read: Glaceon and maybe the 150+ Special attackers (I have no idea about them.).

I don't see this Pokemon as being Uber, to be honest. The low BST destroys it now, and the Dragon guy (names escape me) outspeeds it handily, with 98 base Speed.

Sorry for the bump.

 

[Dominion]

considering 130 is almost average now, I doubt this thing will be all that terrible in standard play. Yeah, getting hit by a max power blizzard hurts, but considering we're sitting on pokemon who's base stats are pushing 120+ already, i think it'll be fine.

Expecially after you calculate Stealth Rock, fighting/rock/dragon weakness, slowness, and general lack of anything really setting it apart of already existing dragons.

 

[Tortferngatr]

Read: Glaceon and maybe the 150+ Special attackers (I have no idea about them.).

I don't see this Pokemon as being Uber, to be honest. The low BST destroys it now, and the Dragon guy (names escape me) outspeeds it handily, with 98 base Speed.

Sorry for the bump.

Glaceon ties for highest Sp. A among Ice-types, but it doesn't get Claw Sharpen or the attack to use it, Kyuremu while having poor base speed is most certainly better than Glaceon's fail movement rate, Glaceon doesn't even get Kyuremu's passable coverage, and Kyuremu's 125/90/90 defenses easily trump Glaceon's 65/110/95 defenses. That's what I'm saying. (I'm not saying this thing is Uber by any means whatsoever: I know it's an Ice-type.)

STAB off 130 base Sp. A. and Claw Sharpen is what separates it from the 150+ users.

Just wondering how effective it is: I'm not playing PO's Free DW ladder until either it or PL get updated to Gen V.

 

[Arcticblast]

Glaceon ties for highest Sp. A among Ice-types, but it doesn't get Claw Sharpen or the attack to use it, Kyuremu while having poor base speed is most certainly better than Glaceon's fail movement rate, Glaceon doesn't even get Kyuremu's passable coverage, and Kyuremu's 125/90/90 defenses easily trump Glaceon's 65/110/95 defenses. That's what I'm saying. (I'm not saying this thing is Uber by any means whatsoever: I know it's an Ice-type.)

STAB off 130 base Sp. A. and Claw Sharpen is what separates it from the 150+ users.

Just wondering how effective it is: I'm not playing PO's Free DW ladder until either it or PL get updated to Gen V.

I was simply pointing out that the specific statement you made was wrong. I think it might have a specific niche in standard.

 

[reachzero]

I'm frankly rather stunned by the degree to which practically ever user that has posted in this thread (not Bad Romance or PK Gaming) has overrated Kyuremu. Remember that a Pokemon does not exist in a vacuum--it needs to compete for a team slot with other similar Pokemon, and it is only fast or slow compared to the metagame it is used in. Kyuremu has a few obvious strengths that all the Dragon-types have in common--a very strong Draco Meteor and Outrage, sure. It's biggest problems with its speed, typing, and coverage give it a handicap compared to virtually every other Dragon--to the extent that it is thoroughly outclassed by practically every other. To demonstrate my point:

Pure Special Attacking variants are outclassed badly by Sazandora (and Latias)

Aside from being faster than both Kyuremu and Ononokusu, Sazandora has more useful resistances to allow Sazandora to switch in. Once Sazandora is in, its coverage is far, far better than Kyuremu's considering that it has access to Surf and Flamethrower/Fire Blast. Sazandora is immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes, and is neutral to Stealth Rock. Kyuremu is weak to Stealth Rock, and takes damage from Spikes and Toxic Spikes. Sazandora gets U-turn. A slam dunk for Sazando. Almost all the same points apply to Latias, only more so.

All-out attacker mixed ("wallbreaker") Kyuremu is badly outclassed by Salamence, and somewhat outclassed by Dragonite

Salamence is significantly faster than Kyuremu. This speed difference is not trivial, is makes the difference in terms of beating Sazandora, Ononokusu, Genosect and Hihidaruma, and gains speed ties against Jirachi, Flygon, Victini and of course other Salamence. Salamence has Intimidate, while Kyuremu must settle for pressure. Salamence has better defensive typing for switching in, resisting Fighting and being immune to Ground. Salamence is immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes, Kyuremu takes full damage. Salamence has Roost to stick around much longer than Kyuremu can. Most importantly, Salamence has Earthquake and Fire Blast, whereas Kyuremu depends on Focus Blast for coverage. Fire Blast in particular is extremely important since it allows Salamence to OHKO Nattorei, Forretress and Scizor--if Kyuremu uses HP Fire, it loses the speed tie with its fellow base 95s, which is brutal considering how slow it is already (more on that later). Importantly, Salamence resists Fighting while Kyuremu is weak to it--Mach Punch is one of the most important moves in Gen 5, since so many massively threatening Pokemon are Fighting-weak: Sazandora, Terakion, Doryuuzu, etc. Salamence outclasses Kyuremu badly in terms of both pure wall-breaking ability and survivability.

In fact, Dragonite outclasses Kyuremu in terms of wallbreaking as well. Again, the keys are the immunity to Spikes and the presence of Roost--against a stall team, Kyuremu almostly certainly will get only one switchin, two at most due to its vulnerability to entry hazards. Compounding the matter is the fact that Kyuremu cannot OHKO Blissey with any move the way Dragonite can with Superpower, and cannot OHKO Forretress without HP Fire.

In fact, practically every offensive Kyuremu set has this crippling flaw: it's too slow to avoid being OHKOed or 2HKOed by the many Pokemon with supereffective attacks. Gen 5 looks to be a very fast metagame; base 95 is not as fast as it was in Gen 4. Kyuremu won't have many opportunities to switch in, and even when it does, it won't have a good opportunity to set up (to use Claw Sharpen, for instance). Here is what I mean:

Victini outspeeds and can hit Kyuremu with Focus Blast. Doryuuzu outspeeds in Sand and can 2HKO Kyuremu with Earthquake. Zoruark outspeeds and can hit Kyuremu with Focus Blast. All the other Dragons except Kingdra and Dragonit outspeed Kyuremu and can hit it with Dragon moves. Uragamosu outspeeds and hits it very hard. Kobaruon, Terakion, Birijion and Kerudio all outspeed, and can hit it with STAB Fighting attacks. Randorosu outspeeds and can hit it with Stone Ege. Genosect outspeeds and can hit it with very hard with either STAB Bug, or even worse STAB Steel. And these are JUST the Gen 5 Pokemon that are far too risky for Kyuremu to switch in on, many of which can actually force Kyuremu out if it spends a turn setting up. Factoring in the Gen 4 Pokemon, there are even fewer good opportunities for Kyuremu. Making it all worse, being weak to Mach Punch makes Kyuremu even more vulnerable to Pokemon like Breloom and Roopushin, Pokemon that other Dragons actually handle very well.

To be honest, the best sets I've seen so far are the ones that emphasize screens, though even then I would try to use Outrage as well to differentiate Kyuremu from Latias. I foresee Kyuremu being low-OU, sortof the Gen 5 answer to Electivire. It sounds good on paper, but has massive problems that are just too difficult to overcome for it to be a top-tier Pokemon.

 

[Frost Nocturne]

EDIT: The set definitely does better with convenient removal of Burunkeru, who is only 2-shotted by +1 Outrage (which has its obvious drawbacks) at max defense/HP. Natoorei is no problem for it: Focus Blast 2HKO's with spikes in play, and I think even with resisted SR it KO's.

You should be more worried about Nattorei than Burunkeru. Burunkeru, as you said, is 2HKO'd, and can't really do anything to you, since you resist water, don't care much about a possible burn due to being mixed, and take negligible damage from Shadow Ball. Nattorei, on the other hand, can paralyze you or demolish Kyumeru with a full power SE STAB Gyro Ball.

As for Kyumeru's effectiveness, as Reachzero said, it's not a bad Pokemon at all, it's just outclassed by most other dragons. Even with a 660 BST, it just can't even begin to compare to the 670+ "Classical Ubers" and is even outclassed by the 600 BST Dragons due in large part to the speed. It's typing is redundant offensively, and poor defensively. It has a very inefficient stat spread, a shallow and repetitive movepool, and is vulnerable both to common priority, other dragons, and the crapload of stuff thats ev'd to outspeed and take down other dragons. However, it does seem to have it's uses.

One of the few things going for it is Frozen World, which could be nice to hit switch-ins with. Also, it's typing is actually rather useful for dealing with special attackers. It's weaknesses are almost always physical, while it has useful resistances to common special types, namely water, electric, grass, and a neutrality to ice unlike other dragons. This means it resists the majority of the average water types movepool while being nuetral to their ice beam, which is a pretty valuable and exclusive quality shared only with Nattorei and Dialga iirc. The only thing is that all it gets to set up with is Claw Sharpen, and all of his low acc moves are special...

Still, I'm pretty sure this guy will get some major buffs when the third game comes around. New Forme(/s), the 130 bp ice moves, and move tutors. He does look pretty awesome too, and I've wanted a Dragon/Ice for a long time, so I hope he finds some use.

 

[SJCrew]

The only thing is it can't really do that much to them besides just pounding them with Draco Meteor or Outrage

>_>

I'm thinking Kyu should run a set like this:

Kyuremu @ Life Orb
Naive
252 Att/40 Sp. Att/252 Speed

Frozen World/Substitute
Outrage
Focus Blast
HP Fire

First, let's discuss the EVs. Even with most of his moveset being Special, Outrage is his main STAB and needs to be as strong as possible for putting the hurt on defensive mons. We don't need to worry about missing the KO on TTar, since he's getting KOed by Focus Blast even without any Sp. Att EVs. Also, being slower than Lucario is practically a cardinal sin, so the speed nature was warranted. Sadly, you can't 2HKO Sp. Def Skarmory with this spread, factoring in Leftovers, but without Shed Shell, it's easy bait for Magnezone.

First moveslot choice is really just an option of how much predicting you want to do and how much support to willing to give him. If not much at all, I doubt Kyu's going to be very effective in the first place. If you have a spinner in tow, I'd seriously consider Substitute. Bulky Water types are most likely going to run off in fear of not being able to hurt you, and to take advantage of that, you'll want a Sub, so you can nail incoming Scizor, Ttar, and Steels with the appropriate move without fear of being KOed.

I'm not too fond of Draco Meteor for Kyu. His most common switch-ins, by far, will be Steel types and he'll be a sitting duck at -2 every time. With this set, he can pick off other Dragons without leaving himself vulnerable, and still be potent at breaking non-Steel walls, including Blissey.

I think Kyu's biggest advantage over other Dragon types is his neutrality to Ice Beam, which makes him an enemy to Water types rather than fodder for them. You can switch into them much more readily and threaten to KO, while Mence and Chomp have to be more wary. Focus Blast is a unique option most Dragons don't possess as well, and I'd be much more in favor of counting it as a "reliable Fighting type attack" were it not for that 70% accuracy. Claw Sharpen could help with both that and Blizzard, but I don't care for offensive boosting moves on slower Pokemon without priority.