Infernape

[AccidentalGreed]

Theoretically, Infernape does have another thing over Blaziken, and that's Choice Band. Due to Access to U-Turn and fair enough Speed and Attack to abuse Flare Blitz and U-Turn and a slightly less risky Fighting-type move, Infernape can be used as a scout and a powerful revenge killer.

Blaziken, on the other hand, has that 120 Attack and Speed Boost, though...

 

[Ericcc]

Theoretically, Infernape does have another thing over Blaziken, and that's Choice Band. Due to Access to U-Turn and fair enough Speed and Attack to abuse Flare Blitz and U-Turn and a slightly less risky Fighting-type move, Infernape can be used as a scout and a powerful revenge killer.

Blaziken, on the other hand, has that 120 Attack and Speed Boost, though...

I think, in my personal opinion, that Infernape will always have its place in the OU tier. And that place will always be (much) higher than Blaziken's. Speed is the only thing that matters here. Sure, after one turn Blaziken will have higher speed that Infernape, but one turn is all it takes; and for many, that turn won't be available for taking advantage of.

 

[LeviLamprey]

Remember Blaziken has 80/70/70 while Infernape has 76/71/71 defenses. Both are pretty mediocre. if Blaziken doesn't want to spend a moveslot using Protect to initiate the Speed Boost then it has to switch in on a Pokemon it totally walls. Not too much, really. Infernape doesn't need the one-stage wait to be fast, allowing it to set up with a stat-boosting move or get out of there with U-Turn, or just use a potentially wall-breaking attack before it dies. Infernape and Blaziken aren't the same Pokemon and shouldn't be treated as such. Some Pokemon are better than others, so Nape should switch to a role it outclasses Blaziken in or one it has no access to. Blaziken doesn't learn SR, for example.

 

[Ericcc]

Cheer Up is amazingly potent to run now in place of Nasty Plot imo


Has it been confirmed that Blaziken can get Iron Fist + TPunch?

 

[AccidentalGreed]

Has it been confirmed that Blaziken can get Iron Fist + TPunch?

Nope, because Blaziken doesn't have Iron Fist. Okay, you mean Infernape. Theoretically, yes, since Chimchar has Thunderpunch as an Egg move and female Infernape/Chimchar from the Dream World are required to receive Egg moves from male 4th generation ones.

 

[Ericcc]

Sorry :l


Yes that is what I meant. Well, Blaze never served Blaziken much use seeing as it never really got down to that level of HP and lived... Also factoring in the fact that it uses LO most of the time. I can see Iron Fist getting much more usage this time around; although TPunch alone doesn't seem that appealing, a STAB, LO, and Iron Fist boosted Fire Punch is quite the treacherous prospect...

Oh, and also there's no accuracy problem (when comparing to FB), and there's no recoil (when comparing, of course, to Flare Blitz)

 

[Eraddd]

Honestly, Infernape's only strongpoint is its versatility; it runs a variety of moves like close combat (a staple), nasty plot, swords dance, mach punch, Thunder/Fire Punch, Grass Knot, Hidden Power Ice, Stone Edge, and great leading moves.

However, its frailty does it no good in this metagame. This metagame at the moment, is based on either hitting hard and fast, or soaking in attacks, and inflicting STAB or Super Effective moves that will most likely severely cripple or KO Infernape with his meager defenses, even without significant investment.

I can 2HKO Infernape with Bullet Punch on a standard Choice Band Scizor after residual damage from Stealth Rock. I can bring in Scarf Garchomp on a resisted Fire move, or Grass Knot, and take it out, or take a chunk of whatever is switching in for major damage.

 

[Jaroda]

Sorry :l


Yes that is what I meant. Well, Blaze never served Blaziken much use seeing as it never really got down to that level of HP and lived... Also factoring in the fact that it uses LO most of the time. I can see Iron Fist getting much more usage this time around; although TPunch alone doesn't seem that appealing, a STAB, LO, and Iron Fist boosted Fire Punch is quite the treacherous prospect...

Oh, and also there's no accuracy problem (when comparing to FB), and there's no recoil (when comparing, of course, to Flare Blitz)

lol, you said Blaziken again.

Lead Infernape actually had a lot of use for Blaze as it uses focus sash which nearly guarantees it gets into Blaze range. Blaze STAB Overheat hurts a fuckton even without EVs in it. And if hazards aren't on the field, I have brought lead Ape back in to fire another one off.

 

[SJCrew]

Lead Ape would be much more useful were it not for Hippowdon being such an incredibly popular lead these days.

Also, for the record, I just tried to use Infernape today with a physical LO set of Fire Punch/CC/Mach Punch/Tpunch, but then I switched to 3 Attacks Blaziken, who basically beats offense like they owe him lunch money, even weather teams.

Guess there really isn't much of an offensive niche for Infernape save for like...Choiced sets or something.

 

[LeviLamprey]

Choiced sets can be used on anything...even Maggyo. I think personally being a lead is what it does best. Blaziken just outclasses it as a sweeper, so use it as something else if you you don't like inferiority complexes.

 

[FerrariCUBU]

Infernape and Blaziken have completely different roles. Ape is an excellent lead because of it's high speed and access to Stealth Rock. Ape is one of the best wallbreakers in the game. After a Nasty Plot, which Blaziken lacks, it can OHKO most of the common OU walls. Blaziken can't because it doesn't have access to Grass Knot. However, Blaziken is a much better sweeper than Ape because of it's higher offensive stats and access to speed boost. Blaziken can also Baton Pass it's boosts. Neither Pokemon is better because they do completely different things.

 

[IcyMan28]

Infernape and Blaziken have completely different roles. Ape is an excellent lead because of it's high speed and access to Stealth Rock. Ape is one of the best wallbreakers in the game. After a Nasty Plot, which Blaziken lacks, it can OHKO most of the common OU walls. Blaziken can't because it doesn't have access to Grass Knot. However, Blaziken is a much better sweeper than Ape because of it's higher offensive stats and access to speed boost. Blaziken can also Baton Pass it's boosts. Neither Pokemon is better because they do completely different things.

Blaziken does not need Nasty Plot, as SD Hi Jump Kick of even the mixed set breaks the same walls that Infernape does (and more).

Against Stall teams, Blaziken is better (the difference between base 80 and base 108 is almost moot given the low speed of the enemy) as it has both more immediate power and more power after a boost.

Against Balanced teams, they are about equal, as Blaziken can hit the slower threats but needs to watch out for faster threats, while Infernape is a bit less concerned.

Against Offensive teams, Blaziken is the way to go, as Speed Boost + Power give it the edge over various scarfers and checks anyway.


Infernape needs to use either a Scarf set, a Lead Set, or a CB set to differentiate itself, and is otherwise outclassed.

 

[SJCrew]

Infernape and Blaziken have completely different roles.

Rofl, that was never true. Blaze fell to UU last gen because Infernape was faster and therefore the better mixed sweeper. Reverse roles this gen and you'll see Infernape hovering just over the UU cutoff on PO ladder while Blaze stands strong in the top 10. He has better attacking stats and gets free speed from doing nothing. You really can't argue with that.

 

[Rhys DeAnno]

Against Stall teams, Blaziken is better (the difference between base 80 and base 108 is almost moot given the low speed of the enemy) as it has both more immediate power and more power after a boost.

I disagree with this strongly. HJK is a poor Stall breaking move, highly vulnerable to protect users (Hi Wishbliss!) and ghost switches. Stall doesn't really care as much about the extremely high speeds Blaziken can reach either, Nape's 108 is enough to usually outspeed 5/6 or even all of of a stall team's members in some cases.

Blaziken is probably more useful now since it's better at beating offense, but Nape is still much more consistent against stall.

 

[Ericcc]

Consistency, that's the key word. Infernape will always be much more consistent that Blaziken will be. Of course, after a Blaziken gets a speed boost, one may say that it will outclass Ape in every way when comparing stats.

But Infernape will always be the top contender at breaking stall. The chicken is more of a sweeper

 

[Tegen Toppa Raichu Lagann]

Lead Ape would be much more useful were it not for Hippowdon being such an incredibly popular lead these days.

Also, for the record, I just tried to use Infernape today with a physical LO set of Fire Punch/CC/Mach Punch/Tpunch, but then I switched to 3 Attacks Blaziken, who basically beats offense like they owe him lunch money, even weather teams.

Guess there really isn't much of an offensive niche for Infernape save for like...Choiced sets or something.

You only tested it once, didn't you? I'm not sure one failure is enough to give up on the Iron Fist set.

But if it is, I made a set that combines Infernape's leading abilities with Iron Fist, the two things Nape has over Blaziken.

Infernape @ Focus Sash
Nature: Jolly / Adamant
Ability: Iron Fist

- Stealth Rock
- Close Combat / Mach Punch
- Fire Punch
- Fake Out

Close Combat is a tradition with Infernape, but Mach Punch gets a boost from IF and can maybe KO Doryuuzu (if you switch Nape out before he dies after using SR).

Tell me what you think!

 

[FerrariCUBU]

Blaziken does not need Nasty Plot, as SD Hi Jump Kick of even the mixed set breaks the same walls that Infernape does (and more).

Against Stall teams, Blaziken is better (the difference between base 80 and base 108 is almost moot given the low speed of the enemy) as it has both more immediate power and more power after a boost.

Against Balanced teams, they are about equal, as Blaziken can hit the slower threats but needs to watch out for faster threats, while Infernape is a bit less concerned.

Against Offensive teams, Blaziken is the way to go, as Speed Boost + Power give it the edge over various scarfers and checks anyway.


Infernape needs to use either a Scarf set, a Lead Set, or a CB set to differentiate itself, and is otherwise outclassed.

I ran some calcs and here are the general results:

Nattorie - Ape OHKO - Blaze OHKO
Burungeru - Ape 95% - Blaze OHKO
Skarmory - Ape OHKO - Blaze OHKO
Hippowdon - Ape OHKO - Blaze OHKO
Gliscor - Ape OHKO - Blaze OHKO
Blissey - Ape OHKO - Blaze OHKO
Rankurusu - Ape OHKO - Blaze 95%

This is assuming most used sets (based on PO) for all Pokemon involved. It would seem that Blaziken and Infernape match up pretty evenly against stall. At this point, Ape may be outclassed in most roles besides as a lead. You got me there.

 

[IcyMan28]

I disagree with this strongly. HJK is a poor Stall breaking move, highly vulnerable to protect users (Hi Wishbliss!) and ghost switches. Stall doesn't really care as much about the extremely high speeds Blaziken can reach either, Nape's 108 is enough to usually outspeed 5/6 or even all of of a stall team's members in some cases.

Blaziken is probably more useful now since it's better at beating offense, but Nape is still much more consistent against stall.

This is entirely untrue. Protect users have to predict the HJK, and prediction goes both ways. They can either predict your HJK and Protect, or you can predict their Protect and just nab another SD. They're even there.

And your point about speed is exactly what I was saying - the "immediate speed" that everyone is championing Infernape for doesn't matter when you're facing a team of Blissey / Skarm / Natty / Bloongell / Forry / Hippo, because they both outspeed. Blaziken's higher attacking stats could prove invaluable.

But Infernape will always be the top contender at breaking stall. The chicken is more of a sweeper

I'm not sure why people are adopting this viewpoint. Blaziken breaks stall just as effectively as Infernape does, if not moreso since it does not require Nasty Plot + GK to muscle past bulky waters while sacrificing coverage on the dragons. It has higher offensive stats, the same typing, high power base moves, and a +2 Boosting Move. How that is worse than Infernape is beyond me.

By running a simple set of SD / HJK / Stone Edge / Fire Blast, Blaziken can take on every defensive threat that Infernape can (in addition to Tentacruel and Vaporeon) while still holding its own against faster offensive threats such as Latias, Starmie, and Dragons.

As countless others before me have already stated, Infernape needs to use either a Lead set or a Choice Set to differentiate itself.

 

[blasphemy1]

Hi Jump Kick is horrible for breaking stall. Stall has a lot of Protect users and ALWAYS a Ghost-type for blocking Rapid Spin. Someone already mentioned both of these points, and of course Blaziken absolutely must use HJK vs. Blissey, since its other moves will not suffice. Sky Uppercut is better for Blaziken... at which point you lose power and might as well be using Infernape. Infernape is obviously better against stall because Close Combat + Flamethrower are great STABs, both reliable and hard hitting. U-turn is huge too, as it lets you get a light hit on stuff like Tentacruel as you send in Espeon to reflect Toxic Spikes.

 

[SJCrew]

And your point about speed is exactly what I was saying - the "immediate speed" that everyone is championing Infernape for doesn't matter when you're facing a team of Blissey / Skarm / Natty / Bloongell / Forry / Hippo, because they are both outsped

I don't think it really matters at all, to tell the truth. Between Protect and revenge killing slower Pokemon, Blaziken can be pretty consistently faster than Infernape when it counts the most.

@ Blasphemy: A lot of those points are horribly biased and outright wrong. When you say "a lot of Protect users", you mean one or two, right? Protect users usually amount to Blissey and Vappy, which is usually never on the same team as Tentacruel. Some things don't even have to be hit with HJK. Suppose you're in on Nattorei with Protect. That sounds like a pretty good time for your safe, STAB Fire move, right? U-turn matters more for Infernape than Blaziken because Infernape is weaker and easier to force out. If Blaziken really wanted to, it could run a pretty effective mixed set too, but no one bothers with it because SD is usually better in general.

The labels you attach to them don't really matter. Stallbreaker or sweeper, if you want to rack up a serious body count, you're usually better with Blaziken. Ape has a niche somewhere, but it's smaller now because Blaziken does most of what he used to better. That is to say, sweeping. Infernape and Blaziken were always primarily sweepers, and when one manages to consistently outperform the other in that regard, it's going to find itself on more people's teams.

 

[blasphemy1]

@ Blasphemy: A lot of those points are horribly biased and outright wrong. When you say "a lot of Protect users", you mean one or two, right? Protect users usually amount to Blissey and Vappy, which is usually never on the same team as Tentacruel. Some things don't even have to be hit with HJK. Suppose you're in on Nattorei with Protect. That sounds like a pretty good time for your safe, STAB Fire move, right? U-turn matters more for Infernape than Blaziken because Infernape is weaker and easier to force out. If Blaziken really wanted to, it could run a pretty effective mixed set too, but no one bothers with it because SD is usually better in general.

The labels you attach to them don't really matter. Stallbreaker or sweeper, if you want to rack up a serious body count, you're usually better with Blaziken. Ape has a niche somewhere, but it's smaller now because Blaziken does most of what he used to better. That is to say, sweeping. Infernape and Blaziken were always primarily sweepers, and when one manages to consistently outperform the other in that regard, it's going to find itself on more people's teams.

One or two is generally enough for Blaziken to die, is it not? It loses a whopping 50% of health when HJK doesn't successfully hit, and you need all the health you can get against stall because you'll be switching in/out and dealing with residual damage. Honestly you are overlooking a lot of the practical things that occur in a battle but you might not think about on paper. Stall arguably thrives on sheer bulk, while stall breaking requires a delicate balance of firepower and coverage. Grass Knot is huge for Infernape.

 

[IcyMan28]

One or two is generally enough for Blaziken to die, is it not? It loses a whopping 50% of health when HJK doesn't successfully hit, and you need all the health you can get against stall because you'll be switching in/out and dealing with residual damage. Honestly you are overlooking a lot of the practical things that occur in a battle but you might not think about on paper. Stall arguably thrives on sheer bulk, while stall breaking requires a delicate balance of firepower and coverage. Grass Knot is huge for Infernape.

It still stands that Protect requires them to predict your HJK, and as such the argument goes both ways. Also, Blaziken can run a mixed set that doesn't require the use of SD and can immediately attack while retaining wallbreaking power.

Grass Knot really isn't that big of a deal for Infernape when facing stall. All it really hits is Hippowdon and Tenta and Vappy don't care about its measly power against them. Hippowdon takes a severe amount of damage from Blaziken's SD HJK as is, as do the other two.

I'm not going to disregard the fact that Infernape remains a good stallbreaker, it really is. But both before and after the boost, my money is on Blaziken. Anyone who switches Blissey into Blaziken while having other pokemon left makes it painfully obvious that they intend to Protect.

 

[Jaroda]

At the very least Infernape also has unpredictability on it's side. If you see a Blaziken, there's very little wiggle room in what it's packing. Infernape can at least get the upper hand through surprise with as many options as it has.

Overall though the numbers speak for themselves seeing how so many people are using Blaziken over Infernape. I don't expect that to change until Gen VI, if ever.

 

[blasphemy1]

It still stands that Protect requires them to predict your HJK, and as such the argument goes both ways. Also, Blaziken can run a mixed set that doesn't require the use of SD and can immediately attack while retaining wallbreaking power.

Grass Knot really isn't that big of a deal for Infernape when facing stall. All it really hits is Hippowdon and Tenta and Vappy don't care about its measly power against them. Hippowdon takes a severe amount of damage from Blaziken's SD HJK as is, as do the other two.

I'm not going to disregard the fact that Infernape remains a good stallbreaker, it really is. But both before and after the boost, my money is on Blaziken. Anyone who switches Blissey into Blaziken while having other pokemon left makes it painfully obvious that they intend to Protect.

Blaziken can't break through Burungeru without Swords Dance, simple as that. Blissey + Burungeru on stall is a very common duo. Blissey can use Protect, and of course Blaziken might use another move. But what would happen if you overpredict when utilizing Blaziken, and they Thunder Wave as you Fire Blast/Stone Edge/etc? Wall breakers should not require heavy emphasis on prediction, and Infernape meets this criteria more than Blaziken. Even after Blaziken can get past Blissey's Protect and HJK it, Burungeru can switch in and now you've either: lost 50% health, or dealt a small amount of damage that can be Recovered.

Honestly, I don't see Vaporeon on stall all too often. The bulky water of choice tends to be Burungeru, who as I mentioned isn't afraid of anything from Blaziken (barring SD sets; which can be dealt with through other means). Grass Knot hits Burungeru pretty hard.

 

[alphatron]

Alright, so I'm finding Infernape impossible to use in this metagame. Hippo leads are everywhere, weakening Infernape's job as a lead himself. Lati@s is everywhere, making Infernape's overall life miserable. Between spamming u-turn (and lol shadow claw) just to get rid of the dragons, infernape quite literally becomes dead wieght for as long as they are around. It's even more upsetting when he becomes collateral damage for revenge killers like azumarill and conckledurr.

I'm not gonna pass judgement on him yet, but he just doesn't seem worth the team slot anymore. Even if you aren't running Blaziken.