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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish
- Thread starter reachzero
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As the guy who kind of had a big hand popularizing Gorebyss teams (getting into the top 10 and staying there with it) I feel I should contribute to the current discussion. As the first person I saw on ladder using Garchomp as a recipient, I can tell you from many battles that whilst he is a very good choice due to the natural bulk (and ability to take non ice shard priority), stuff like Gliscor, Skarm, Quagsire and Bulky Waters can really slow his sweep down. I use him more as a way to weaken these wall if this is the case so my hyper offensive team with similar counters can completely clean up. Speaking of Quagsire, that thing is so fucking annoying it's ridiculous, so I run a certain pokemon to get around it (and even that doesnt always work against certain movesets unless I'm running a certain other pokemon), which I actually consider the core reason for my teams success - it's one that I actually haven't seen a single other person use all suspect test. As for MM Espeon as a recipient, me and I think TFC both tried that out on our Gorebyss teams. CM/Assist power (yes I dont use it anymore seeing as it's apparently illegal)/hp fighting/shadow ball. This thing has singlehandedy won me some games and has acted as a great turn 1 pivot against other Deoxys teams, however pretty much any team with a jirachi/zong/Skarmory/scizor/azumarill rapes Espeon (Skarmory more because it can hit really hard with Brave bird as opposed to phase). I honestly prefer Raikou or Nidoking in that slot. I usually use Raikou but if there are a lack of Dorys on the ladder Nidoking especially pulls its weight. Finally, for those of you who think it's broken - it's not. I'm yet to see more then maybe two other people aside from me in the top 100 with it, and it is definitely not always as straightforward as Screens ---> SS --> Sweep (especially against really good players). It requires a lot of fine tuning to get the rest of the team right and it can even lose as spectacularly as it wins. Give it a shot and see for yourself whether it's broken or not, its a good strategy but far from broken (Sand is still worse and I don't think it's broken either).
I'm losing horribily with my stall team, which is made up of a solid core (skarmblissgyrados) with a check to reniculus (latias), a spinner (forry) and a SRer (swampert). First of all, it is very suspectible to hax, even though its supposed to have less prediction, less prone to hax, more consistant because they have a check to everything, and yet my pokes are losing to those pokemon. First of all, two core members of my team (bliss and latias), is easily pursuit bait, which means both flanks of my defense weakened. Also, stall relies on phazing. You can't phaze if the opponent's pokemon is the last. With SD scizor becoming more common, the only way I could check it is by phasing it, only because of its bulk and offensive presence. In 5th genaration, with rotom-A (which was a common member on stall teams checking SD scizor even though it wasn't common in 4th genaration) losing its ghost typings, it has become lesss used, which means that it had less use for stall teams, and stall teams had a hard time finding a moveslot for fire types. If rotom-H hadn't changed type, it would've been stall's answer to nattorei and such. Also, stall is extremely prone to hax. While stall doesn't rely on low accuracy moves like offence does (OMG fire blas missed), usually physical offensive threats can 2KO stuff like skarm after an +2 which means that when a crit happens, the wall is dead. Compared to that massive damage, skarm can only phase it away only delaying the inevitable sweep. Not to mention that if the opponent attacks more, more crits will happen. As for bliss, which can supposedly single handily wall any special attacker, I've already mentioned its counters a few pages ago. Bliss, who counters Latios, still has problems with latios because they are usually unpredictible. (will it psycho shock?, or trick?) No I will not run mail on bliss because it is against my pride. Also, the attack boost in perma-rain and perma-sun is pretty evident when that bliss takes like 60% damage from a specs shandera fire blast. Compared ot all those buffs from the genaration change (psycho shock, perma sun, perma rain, the return of the dragons), stall got what? A nattorei with an exploitable 4x weakness and a burungeru with a pursuit weakness. Most of the top tier sweepers have a way to counter nattorei! My conclusion is, unless someone builds a uniquely effective stall team, stall will perish and weather offence will become more common.
As someone who has been running stall all round to voting rights, it's definitely still viable, although a lot tougher to run than previous generations. First off, you cannot run a team of six walls. Right now, I'm running five walls and a Scarf Terrakion to clean up. With a SkarmBlissLatias core, I've got most threats covered. I chose Forry as a spinner/SR, Burungeru as a spinblocker, and Scarf Terrakion as my offensive back up/clean up.
Some of the problems you mention do exist. I cannot tell you how many times I have raged at a Dory double flinch. However, if they're occurring often enough to cause you losses, you're probably walling to the point where you're making yourself too prone to hax. Skarm can't wall Dory forever. Skarm has to phase Dory out at +2. Every time. I also would not suggest running Swampert in this current meta.
You mention SD Scizor as an obstacle, but Burungeru can burn it, and then have Skarm phaze it until the end where Burungeru can taunt and kill it. Rankurusu is definitely a problem that I'd barely managed to avoid through clever use of Taunt Burungeru. Also considering you do not run a ghost, other stall teams will easily be capable of stall breaking you.
For starters with your team, I'd recommend removing Swampert, I don't find him too useful in this meta (or this gen, to be honest). Between Forry and Skarmory, you should be able to fit SR somewhere. You could try replacing Swampert with Scarf Terrakion and Gyarados with Burungeru, but then you'd be running my team. I really appreciate the usefulness of Scarf Terrakion though because he completely cleans up once Fighting resists are removed. In fact, Adamant Stone Edge 2HKOs Protect Gliscor with a +1 from Justice Heart. I believe a scarfer is now neccessary for stall revenge some of the more offensive threats that you can't wall, like MixTar, Thundurus, and Tornadus. Kind of similar to KG stall how Scarf Tyranitar patches up a lot of the weaknesses of the team.
I wouldn't call stall dead though.
Some of the problems you mention do exist. I cannot tell you how many times I have raged at a Dory double flinch. However, if they're occurring often enough to cause you losses, you're probably walling to the point where you're making yourself too prone to hax. Skarm can't wall Dory forever. Skarm has to phase Dory out at +2. Every time. I also would not suggest running Swampert in this current meta.
You mention SD Scizor as an obstacle, but Burungeru can burn it, and then have Skarm phaze it until the end where Burungeru can taunt and kill it. Rankurusu is definitely a problem that I'd barely managed to avoid through clever use of Taunt Burungeru. Also considering you do not run a ghost, other stall teams will easily be capable of stall breaking you.
For starters with your team, I'd recommend removing Swampert, I don't find him too useful in this meta (or this gen, to be honest). Between Forry and Skarmory, you should be able to fit SR somewhere. You could try replacing Swampert with Scarf Terrakion and Gyarados with Burungeru, but then you'd be running my team. I really appreciate the usefulness of Scarf Terrakion though because he completely cleans up once Fighting resists are removed. In fact, Adamant Stone Edge 2HKOs Protect Gliscor with a +1 from Justice Heart. I believe a scarfer is now neccessary for stall revenge some of the more offensive threats that you can't wall, like MixTar, Thundurus, and Tornadus. Kind of similar to KG stall how Scarf Tyranitar patches up a lot of the weaknesses of the team.
I wouldn't call stall dead though.
Swampert is one of the few mons out there that can shut down voltbro. Though if you're running stall you're probably better off with Quagsire because unaware + recover helps it stick around longer (np focus blast fucks up pert pretty badly) and it can do some damage itself with some late game curses under its belt.
On that note I've definitely found voltbro to be the most threatening mon this round and the only way to deal with it really is to either guess blindly around its moves and hope your opponent doesn't like to predict or use one of the water/grounds (hopefully no one starts using gk on it but then i'll just start using camerupt i'm always one step ahead)
On that note I've definitely found voltbro to be the most threatening mon this round and the only way to deal with it really is to either guess blindly around its moves and hope your opponent doesn't like to predict or use one of the water/grounds (hopefully no one starts using gk on it but then i'll just start using camerupt i'm always one step ahead)
I honestly find it difficult to believe people believe stall has been neutered in the 5th Gen, in my experience to date stall is far MORE effective than ever before just in a new form.
Yes its no longer viable to run full 6 defensive walls for stall, however quick stall/switching with a single token top end sweeper can regularly be near unbreakable. The main reason for this I suspect is numerous factors such as there are simply more reliable methods of recovery now, avoiding hazards, immunity abilities, status protection etc.
Look at how many poison heal, ice body, rain dish, magic guard, sturdy, dry skin, elemental absorbs, recover users we have this gen. Its actually more like because of the huge power creep this gen you're either forced to try match for speed and power or run better type setups and cockblock them.
The trick this gen is finding the best synergy and playing abit better outside universal walls which simply don't work. Stall is far from dead, if anything its stronger than ever before just in a new form. If anything I personally think stall is actually all kinds of bloody broken this generation in that it will shut down certain kinds of teams to the point that its 100% unfeasible to play certain setups with no room for any kind of luck or smart play.
At the very least I still don't understand why people insist on running Swampert in a defensive role this gen, hes simply outclassed by both Gastrodon and Quagsire defensively. As a phazer and SR setup hes yet again outclassed with the numerous offerings this gen and with the most effective Swamperts I've seen being bulky all out offensive not defensive. Players need to throw out all their Gen 4 pre-conceptions of solid walls and realize that Gen 5 has changed so much that only a few things are still effective as in Gen 4 at defensive roles.
Yes its no longer viable to run full 6 defensive walls for stall, however quick stall/switching with a single token top end sweeper can regularly be near unbreakable. The main reason for this I suspect is numerous factors such as there are simply more reliable methods of recovery now, avoiding hazards, immunity abilities, status protection etc.
Look at how many poison heal, ice body, rain dish, magic guard, sturdy, dry skin, elemental absorbs, recover users we have this gen. Its actually more like because of the huge power creep this gen you're either forced to try match for speed and power or run better type setups and cockblock them.
The trick this gen is finding the best synergy and playing abit better outside universal walls which simply don't work. Stall is far from dead, if anything its stronger than ever before just in a new form. If anything I personally think stall is actually all kinds of bloody broken this generation in that it will shut down certain kinds of teams to the point that its 100% unfeasible to play certain setups with no room for any kind of luck or smart play.
At the very least I still don't understand why people insist on running Swampert in a defensive role this gen, hes simply outclassed by both Gastrodon and Quagsire defensively. As a phazer and SR setup hes yet again outclassed with the numerous offerings this gen and with the most effective Swamperts I've seen being bulky all out offensive not defensive. Players need to throw out all their Gen 4 pre-conceptions of solid walls and realize that Gen 5 has changed so much that only a few things are still effective as in Gen 4 at defensive roles.
alphatron
Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
I'm interested in hearing about this specially defensive camerupt whom the genies fear.
Swampert seems to have little value in this metagame. If I wanted a pokemon to set up SR, I'd just use Torterra and abuse his ground and rock resistances. Swampert's biggest boon is probably the fact that nobody packs grass knot or hp grass for him anymore.
Swampert seems to have little value in this metagame. If I wanted a pokemon to set up SR, I'd just use Torterra and abuse his ground and rock resistances. Swampert's biggest boon is probably the fact that nobody packs grass knot or hp grass for him anymore.
Your mention of Magic Guard baffled me, Rankurusu's ability is one of the main reason stall is less valuable in Gen V
Currently running a Toxic-based stallteam which had a lot of succes on the ladder, using Tangrowth, T-tar, Quagsire, Gliscor, Blissey and Doryuuzu. I find Doryuuzu to be an amazing asset to stallteams by being both a finishing lategame sweeper and a spinner. Once i get time i'll try to get myself at the top of the ladder with it.
Nobody ever said you couldn't take advantage of Magic Guard to benefit yourself. Just look at some of the psycho shift Sigiglyphs and Reiuncleus running about who actually reinforce the defenses of some teams. At the sametime he can always fall into the aforementioned criteria of quick stall teams + 1 sweeper whilst still adding more bulk and defensive prescence.
Just loling at the fact that hippowdon and swampert happen to be a few SRers that don't get threatened by a mixtar, and that pert has more resistances and less weaknesses then hippo (if a 4x weakness still counts as one then), and yeah I had a forry as a SRer and a dusclops instead of a pert, but that kinda fell because I couldn't set rocks quickily enough, meaning that I was forcing swiches for nothing. Yeah a sweeper/revenge killer would work for my team, just don't where to put it. (I run CM roar latias by the way)
The part of not having 6 walls is agreed on. However, on the third paragraph, if you insist on recovery is becoming widespread, think of it like this: those that are 1 KOed are still 1KOed with recovery. Those that are 2KOed are probably still 2KOed even wih recovery, not to mention that rocks and spikes are everywhere now.
A total change of subject here and i know its has been discussed to death nearly, but i was thinking;
Would ONE swift swimmer per drizzle team really be broken still ?
I mean because just one per team is hardly any harder to deal with than say a team of Chlorophyll abusers and would at the same time not be totally restrictive of rain.
Would ONE swift swimmer per drizzle team really be broken still ?
I mean because just one per team is hardly any harder to deal with than say a team of Chlorophyll abusers and would at the same time not be totally restrictive of rain.
Way too complex. If the original proposal was walking the edge of a slippery slope, this would just be jumping off of it.
Hey guys, sorry if this is the wrong place for this.
Do you think Salamence and/or Garchomp will stay in OU this time around? Or is it likely one of them will get banned?
Do you think Salamence and/or Garchomp will stay in OU this time around? Or is it likely one of them will get banned?
If someone posts valid reasoning that is difficult to dispute, then yes, they could be nominated and if people agree that they are Uber, they would be banned.
That being said, neither of them is as strong this gen as last-"fast" is Sand Rush/Chlorophyll, 100 base speed is actually kind of mediocre and 102 base speed is "medium-fast". It is not likely that either of the two pseudo-legendary Uber Dragons will be put on the chopping block. More pressing concerns exist in Gen V-like Gorebyss and Reuniclus.
And yes, power creep caught up with them, as Lightning Tiger states below me. They didn't change much-everything else got better.
I doubt those 2 will be going anywhere even if those 2 are banned, power creep caught up to them this gen.
I completely disagree. Wit only 1 Swift Swimmer allowed, rain teams would actually probably look extremely similar to their current form. What was broken about Swift Swim was that you would have to face down SwSw sweeper after SwSw sweeper with 2x speed and double STAB. With only 1 allowed, you would have to face down SwSwsweeper after... not a SwSw sweeper. The problem was that multiple of them could just keep going.
So no, having 1 Swift Swimmer would not be broken. But it would take the phrase "complex ban" to a whole new level.
I sort of agree. The problem isn't that everything else became stronger than them. It's that they gained nothing new. At all. They're still amazing pokes, but the metagame is strong enough that their 4th Gen performance lands them in 5th Gen OU. So, like I said, I sorta agree.
I don't think it would take anything to a whole new level.
Zero SwSw users with Drizzle is not any less complex than 1 SwSw user with Drizzle. The point of the ban was to prevent a cascade of future bans anyway, and I think those that were overreacting and preemptively nominating Drought and SandStream have calmed down.
Zero SwSw users with Drizzle is not any less complex than 1 SwSw user with Drizzle. The point of the ban was to prevent a cascade of future bans anyway, and I think those that were overreacting and preemptively nominating Drought and SandStream have calmed down.
The reason that it would be more complex is as follows:
Old rule: you can use SwSw and Drizzle.
Current rule: you can't use SwSw and Drizzle.
New rule: You can use SwSw and Drizzle, but.......
Is it too complex to work? Not unless you have a tiny brain.
Is it too complex to be widely accepted and liked? Quite possibly, perhaps even probably.
On another note, I'm finding nothing that I think should be Uber this round. The only thing that I worry about is Gorebyss, but I don't think it's a suspect right now. A great strategy, but played around not too difficultly. Is anyone else leaning toward no suspects?
There is nothing complex about "you can use a single user of Swift Swim in combination of Drizzle." I'm really not seeing any downsides to it as it opens up a viable strategy to a pretty large chunk of pokemon, and would still be manageable - look at Drought with its 2-3 viable offensive users of Chlorophyll.
I agree, though - nothing is really standing out this round. Gorebyss passing requires pretty hefty support to pull off effectively and is reminiscent of Dual Screens + BPScor + Recipient (Metagross) last gen.
I agree, though - nothing is really standing out this round. Gorebyss passing requires pretty hefty support to pull off effectively and is reminiscent of Dual Screens + BPScor + Recipient (Metagross) last gen.
I actually support the idea of one SS + Drizzle. I feel that the ban is too restrictive and largely only in place because the 'quality of play' of 3~4 swift swimmers + politoed + nat/zap/scizor/rotom/etc was just dumb. Having one swift swimmer should open up a lot of viability for rain
I agree as well with one Swift Swim abuser + Drizzle. I think that it actually opens a lot of different avenues for rain, meaning that instead of focusing solely on abuse of Swift Swim (which is why the combination was banned in the first place), it's more constricting and actually requires you to figure out a way to sweep with your selected Swift Swim abuser, like any other Pokemon. Sir Azelf's suggestion adds versatility to rain while still staying away from the constant Swift Swim abuse that we saw with rain last suspect round.
Dang. You figured me out. The real reason is that I just hate change. >_<
Speaking of Gliscor, it's almost like 4th Gen Swampert. Many viable sets, all-around good poke, and things carry Hidden Power specifically for it. There's no other reason for Landorus to have HP Ice. Also, speed is less important for Scor because the things that it used to run speed for are either rare or have new ways to beat Scor. A simple max HP/max Def set, while by no means the best EV spread, can certainly be effective for its insane physical walling capabilities. Crap, it's almost 1 am. I gotta go. Goodnight, Smogon.
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