In-Game Tier List Discussion

[AriadosPerson]

@ matty

Thing about Krook is that STAB Crunch is still generally either an OHKO or a 2HKO, and having Moxie for extra power is somewhat unnecessary. Honestly, if Krookodile does die because it lacked the power to OHKO something and that something had the power/move type to take it out, in the worst case scenario you can just bring up death fodder while you Revival Herb it and continue your sweep. Moxie removes that annoyance, I guess, but I'd be willing to bet that you could have still beaten the E4 easily if you had used an Intimidate Krook.

IMO, Moxie is handy to say the least, but I just don't think it's that game-changing.

I'd like to point out that my opinion may be biased in such a manner as to produce a different view of Sandile and co. than that of other people, due to obvious variance in EVs, IVs, and Nature (mine was Brave, +Atk -Spe, probably not as slow as I think it is). I also have absolutely no experience whatsoever with Scraggy and Scrafty, and if you bring them up I will not respond to your point.

 

[Jonathan]

Is anyone else aware that HM eligibility is no longer related to having a certain badge? Meaning as soon as you can trade (after the first gym) you have access to Surf, and everything that entails. Finally I understand why the wild Pokemon when surfing are in the Lvl. 10 region (that threw me off for a while...)

Anyway, Basculin/Jellicent/Alomamola might deserve to go up a little? Also you can technically get Larvesta as soon as you beat the first gym. You can cleverly work your way around the trainers on Route 17/18, the wild Pokemon while surfing are low leveled, and if you save before the couple of grass patches you're required to cross, you're bound to get lucky eventually (and not get ohkoed by level 30 Pokemon).

Additionally, taking this into consideration, a lot of Pokemon on Route 17/18 might deserve top tier status automatically, considering your chances of just tossing a Pokeball at a level 34 Herdier / Watchhog / Scraggy / Dwebble aren't too shabby. Lol @ the first part of the game then.

Considering we're accounting for stuff like the Timburr line's viability based on whether or not you have access to trading, I think we should take this into account, no?

 

[Kikuichimonji]

Is anyone else aware that HM eligibility is no longer related to having a certain badge?

HMs aren't even required to finish the game; they're basically just glorified TM in gen 5, like Rock Smash was in gen 2 (and still is in gen 5). Only difference is that they have to be manually deleted to be un-learned, and some of them give you access to some nicer extras, like access to Cobalion, for one.

And secondly, if base 91 Attack is terrible, why are things with similar/less attack like Scrafty, Throh, and Tympole on that list?

Throh is upper tier mainly because he's available from the very start of the game (even before the second gym), when 100 base attack is going to be higher than anything you see for a very long time. Tympole, similarly, is high mainly by virtue of his early-game utility and the fact that he has a 60-power water STAB from a very early level. Most of the above applies to Scraggy; 75 base attack is good for when you get him, and 75 power fighting STAB at level 20 is great.

All that being said, I think that Cobalion probably deserves to be upper tier due to being about as low-maintenance as you can get (his level may even exceed that of your party's average when you catch him). He has awesome typing (3 weaknesses, 9 resistances, 1 immunity) and has stellar defense, and although these qualities aren't normally great for efficiency, Cobalion can translate his ability to tank into sweeping ability through Swords Dance. He can spend the opening turn using Swords Dance and be not much worse off thanks to his great defense/typing, and after a Swords Dance he can tear through anything with ease. Even before he learns Swords Dance at level 49, he's still good offensively, boasting a 90 base power fighting STAB with no drawback (and 20 PP to boot!)

 

[0verl0rd14]

Jonathan: That is the most awesome news i have heard in ages. Clay, I am going to kill you with frillish. End of story.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Is anyone else aware that HM eligibility is no longer related to having a certain badge? Meaning as soon as you can trade (after the first gym) you have access to Surf, and everything that entails. Finally I understand why the wild Pokemon when surfing are in the Lvl. 10 region (that threw me off for a while...)

Anyway, Basculin/Jellicent/Alomamola might deserve to go up a little? Also you can technically get Larvesta as soon as you beat the first gym. You can cleverly work your way around the trainers on Route 17/18, the wild Pokemon while surfing are low leveled, and if you save before the couple of grass patches you're required to cross, you're bound to get lucky eventually (and not get ohkoed by level 30 Pokemon).

Additionally, taking this into consideration, a lot of Pokemon on Route 17/18 might deserve top tier status automatically, considering your chances of just tossing a Pokeball at a level 34 Herdier / Watchhog / Scraggy / Dwebble aren't too shabby. Lol @ the first part of the game then.

Considering we're accounting for stuff like the Timburr line's viability based on whether or not you have access to trading, I think we should take this into account, no?

gawd
oh gawd
why didn't I figure that out earlier...?

also, you can easily trade over a Master Ball for lulz. use it to catch a LV 34 Herdier/Watchog/Scraggy/Dwebble, lol at everything. Even Elesa would be a cakewalk, and you aren't even using a Blitzle!

 

[Lork]

Is anyone else aware that HM eligibility is no longer related to having a certain badge? Meaning as soon as you can trade (after the first gym) you have access to Surf, and everything that entails. Finally I understand why the wild Pokemon when surfing are in the Lvl. 10 region (that threw me off for a while...)

Anyway, Basculin/Jellicent/Alomamola might deserve to go up a little? Also you can technically get Larvesta as soon as you beat the first gym. You can cleverly work your way around the trainers on Route 17/18, the wild Pokemon while surfing are low leveled, and if you save before the couple of grass patches you're required to cross, you're bound to get lucky eventually (and not get ohkoed by level 30 Pokemon).

Additionally, taking this into consideration, a lot of Pokemon on Route 17/18 might deserve top tier status automatically, considering your chances of just tossing a Pokeball at a level 34 Herdier / Watchhog / Scraggy / Dwebble aren't too shabby. Lol @ the first part of the game then.

Considering we're accounting for stuff like the Timburr line's viability based on whether or not you have access to trading, I think we should take this into account, no?

i thought you couldn't trade with pokes that have hms? if you can then yeah this should boost larvesta up to high minimum.

 

[Zandock]

You'll notice there are two different entries for some of the traded Pokemon. One assumes that trades are available, the other assumes that the player is doing a "no outside help" playthrough. Remember: THE ONLY THING YOU CAN DO WITH TRADES IS TO EVOLVE YOUR POKEMON! NOTHING MORE!

 

[0verl0rd14]

^Screw that rule, I want frillish before Clay, if for nothing else than shits and giggles

 

[Zandock]

The rule is for the basis of discussion for tiering in this thread, not for whatever you decide to do in your game.

 

[Shotoetoe]

Again, can anyone explain the reasoning behind Elgyem in mid tier? I'm really not seeing it...

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Again, can anyone explain the reasoning behind Elgyem in mid tier? I'm really not seeing it...

its slow, plus Sigilyph outclasses it as a psychic-type

 

[TEA_DEMON]

is being outclassed really a grounds for low tiering though?

 

[Zandock]

its slow, plus Sigilyph outclasses it as a psychic-type

I am pretty sure he is asking for reasoning why it isn't in garbage tier.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

ok >_>

Elgyem comes late, like, extremely late. Compare to Sigilyph, Solosis or Goth Loli, who comes before the 4th gym. This guy comes before the 6th. Solosis has a higher SpA, and by the time you get Elgyem, its likely to be Duosion, who has a trollish 115 SpA.

Now for Goth Loli. While lacking a bit in physical bulk, goth loli has a slightly better special bulk. Like Solosis, it should've evolved into Gothorita by Elgyem, and despite a lower SpA, sports higher bulk and speed.

I'm not even mentioning Sigilyph.

Also, the outclass argument could iirc, only be used for version exclusives(like Throh vs Sawk(ok i know that isn't really so version exclusive), or Solosis vs Goth Loli). Outclassing was used to argue Throh up because its hard to even find a Sawk in White, and it makes no sense that Throh is compared to Sawk.

 

[Pancham]

I don't see how Gothita and Elgym can be Mid Tier while Munna is Low Tier. Sure, Munna is ass to train while it knows Confusion, but once it learns Psybeam, lv11, it starts ripping through anything that isn't resistant towards it (or Dark). As well as its Yawn/Hypnosis, Lucky Chant, and Flash being really helpful against bosses and gym leaders/E4. With this, I hope you take in consideration moving Elgym, at least, down and moving Munna up.

 

[Showsni]

Its sorta conveint that you left out the Elite 4 part of the game. Krook gets a +1 off of Renicu (who nailed me with a Focus Blast and I survived with about 1/4th btw) and then precedes to run through the entire rest of the team. Same story for the Ghost E4; in fact more so in that they didn't even get an opportunity to even hit me. That is huggggeee. One Pokemon that single handily defeats 2 Elite 4s due to its ability? Yes please. Plus, would you rather have Intimidate, which is a good ability, on a non-defensive mon?

My Intimidate Krookodile OHKOed all the pyschic leader's Pokémon anyway...

I prefer Intimidate in game, myself. If you want to sweep through a single person's team, then Moxie is obviously better; but if you're going up against a whole lot of individual Pokémon (wild encounters + many trainers), if you want to weaken enemies for a team mate to grab some exp, if you want to reduce annoying random encounters when hiking through a cave, if you want to weaken an enemy by continually switching in Intimidators so it's easier to have a long battle against and then catch, if you want to preserve your Krookodile's health more so you have to use less Potions/Pokémart visits... Intimidate is better. (Plus intimidating everything at the start of a doubles/triples match is great.)

 

[TM13IceBeam]

One can say that since Scraggy/Scrafty is more defensive than offensive, Shed Skin is better. I have a Moxie one, and I think it still works fine anyway for me. :/

(for stall players, if you have seen jonathan's post, I believe it implies you get Toxic VERY early in the game. :O)

 

[Zandock]

Toxic is gotten on route 17. So not until after the sixth gym and it requires a detour if you intend to get it. I found Moxie to be great for my Scrafty, though. He might not be the fastest, but he has some nice resistances and very impressive bulk to allow those boosts to stack up and sweep through teams. His coverage with his powerful STAB moves takes care of pretty much anything you run across in the game, as well.

 

[Showsni]

Toxic is gotten on route 17. So not until after the sixth gym and it requires a detour if you intend to get it.

I think he means trading over a Surfer as soon as possible, then getting all the route 17/18 stuff at the start of the game. Hm, that might actually make Larvesta usable in a playthrough... But, trading over a surfer is outside the scope of the thread, to be fair. (Memories of trading over a cutter in R/B/Y in order to skip SS Anne and come back later to move the truck...)

 

[Shotoetoe]

I am pretty sure he is asking for reasoning why it isn't in garbage tier.

Exactly.
I've trained one to lv 60 and it really has no saving grace imo. It's really, REALLY slow. Sucks majorly until it evolves, after which it sucks slightly less.

Really shallow movepool, and while strong sp.att it will be at low health/dead after most fights because it WILL go last and has pretty poor defenses.

It really should be low tier, pretty far down too.

 

[Vratix]

Gonna get my 2 cents in about a few of these here:
Moxie is not > Intimidate.
Moxie is >>>> Intimidate.
It's Amazing. Also, a Krokorok of similar level can OHKO Elesa's Emolga with an unboosted Crunch so...


Cobalion IS amazing. Makes me feel dirty and cheap for using it, so I don't, but it ABSOLUTELY belongs in High Tier.

Thuderus is a little bit cooler and a fraction better than Tornadus, that makes more people use it.


Durant is a boss. It and Excadrill are the only good non-legend steels in-game.

You can access route 10 before you get the Opelucid City badge (Legend badge, if you please) so Rufflet/Vullaby is available after 7 badges (slightly before Victory Road). Also, Rufflet seems to be at least as useful as the Pidove line, even though it should be evolved at the point where you can get Rufflet. I don't know about Vullaby but Rufflet was definitely holding its own against the Dragon Trainers in the gym.

 

[Shotoetoe]

Durant is a boss. It and Excadrill are the only good non-legend steels in-game.

I disagree, Escavalier was magnificent for me. Slow as a snail, tough as nails.
I slapped a rocky helmet on it, and it decimated all before it. Only needed healing occasionally.

Unlike Beheeyem, Escavalier can afford to be slow.

But yea, not only did I breed megahorn on it, it also requires a trade. So I did go out of my way for it.

 

[Jonathan]

Aw that's too bad about that rule... Anyway I'm sure there are plenty of us who have no qualms about trading a Surfer over ;) Certainly for repeat playthroughs. So I'm glad I got the message out.

 

[Banryu]

I was wondering where Escavalier, Accelgor, and Gigalith place on this list. I assume they're separate from Karrablast, Shelmet, and Roggenrola, since Conkeldurr and Timburr are listed separately. In fact, I seem to recall seeing them on the list before, so what happened? :0 Where'd they go?

 

[Phadunk]

no one has brought them up and gave a decent argument as to where they should be placed a why. you can start.