Given DarkSlay's points against Poison Heal, I will continue to put my support only behind Prankster.
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CAP 12 CAP1 - Part 5c - (Secondary Ability Discussion)
- Thread starter reachzero
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Hi.
I am in support of Poison Heal for the reasons stated by Rising_Dusk.
I have seen much support for the ability of Cloud Nine/Air Lock. At first it seems a like a good idea as to wall against Landlos and Doryuuzu, however it is still resticting to only a small group of Pokemon that it actually works against and which are physical attackers, which is what we want to move away from. We need something more diverse and flexible. With such stats, a weather negating ability will have little effect on users such as Boruteruso and Tornelos which are huge Rain abusers and feast on Pokemon like this which thier Super Effective coverage (both Thunder and Gale respectively). Poison heal works outside of the box, not creating obstacles for Pokemon such as Intimidate, but helping itself with some recovery.
Thanks, bye.
I am in support of Poison Heal for the reasons stated by Rising_Dusk.
I have seen much support for the ability of Cloud Nine/Air Lock. At first it seems a like a good idea as to wall against Landlos and Doryuuzu, however it is still resticting to only a small group of Pokemon that it actually works against and which are physical attackers, which is what we want to move away from. We need something more diverse and flexible. With such stats, a weather negating ability will have little effect on users such as Boruteruso and Tornelos which are huge Rain abusers and feast on Pokemon like this which thier Super Effective coverage (both Thunder and Gale respectively). Poison heal works outside of the box, not creating obstacles for Pokemon such as Intimidate, but helping itself with some recovery.
Thanks, bye.
Air Lock wouldn't help against Excadrill anyway, since it's faster even without Sand Rush. Besides, this CAP has Gliscor-level defenses, and like Gliscor, has a typing that gives it immunity to Earthquake and makes it take neutral damage at worst from its other moves. Unlike Gliscor, it has Intimidate, and a super effective STAB that Excadrill can't become immune to. I don't think it needs any help against Excadrill in the first place.
Cloud Nine A great ability that can staunch the momentum of opposing weather teams.
It seems situational, but wether has become a huge part of the Black and White metagame, and SS has alway been a pretty big part of it.
It seems situational, but wether has become a huge part of the Black and White metagame, and SS has alway been a pretty big part of it.
I think Regenerator is the better choice, and especially a better choice than Poison Heal. While it grants the ability to come in repeteadly during a battle, it doesn't allow it to stay in for a very long time like Poison Heal, and encourage that switching attitude which best suits a momentum Pokémon.
I'm not going to respond directly to DarkSlay's post, because it's not healthy to argue like that in a thread, but I'll make a few additional notes here on Poison Heal. I've said my piece, and I truly think that what I've presented should show exactly how useful—and fair—Poison Heal would be on CAP1. Much of the worry over staying power is not a problem. There is absolutely nothing wrong with CAP1 being able to function as a makeshift tank or even a wall; as a matter of fact, so long as CAP1 isn't setup fodder (which it won't be), having staying power in the field is a major boon. Toxic stalling, for instance, is going to be a great strategy on CAP1 with or without Poison Heal, but Poison Heal would sure help it be even better in a very healthy way.
Also, there are a lot of people against movepool restrictions in combination with something like Poison Heal or Prankster, but I want to chime in that these restrictions exist on countless real OU Pokemon and are not something to be afraid of. I'd like to see CAP get out of this rut that we seem to be stuck in where restricting or intentionally limiting a CAP is a bad thing; on the contrary, it is often a very good thing to limit a Pokemon, especially when it gets ideal typing with an ideal stat spread.
Also, there are a lot of people against movepool restrictions in combination with something like Poison Heal or Prankster, but I want to chime in that these restrictions exist on countless real OU Pokemon and are not something to be afraid of. I'd like to see CAP get out of this rut that we seem to be stuck in where restricting or intentionally limiting a CAP is a bad thing; on the contrary, it is often a very good thing to limit a Pokemon, especially when it gets ideal typing with an ideal stat spread.
I am also supporting Poison Heal, for the very reasons that R_D pointed out in his post earlier. I think the most important one out of those is the almost-assured immunity to status. Status is one of the main things that will bring down momentum, so having Poison Heal should work out really well. The added recovery is also a major plus point.
Seeing what DarkSlay said about having Poison Heal, I'd like to restate my idea for Flare Boost. It gives that sort of status-immunity while giving a good special attack. However, it does have the drawback of taking 18.25% each turn but (please excuse this if it's poll jumping) roost may be able to amend this.
However, if weather is the bigger problem here then cloud nine may be the better choice for an abillity. I would like to point out, though, that even with cloud nine Excadrill can still outspeed CAP1.
However, if weather is the bigger problem here then cloud nine may be the better choice for an abillity. I would like to point out, though, that even with cloud nine Excadrill can still outspeed CAP1.
Actually I'm kind of curious if people would hate the idea of it getting +1 special attack. Poison heal might have staying power but it's way less sweepy than that, not that this thing has the speed to sweep unless you scarf obviously it which kind of defeats the purpose.
So far I'm liking most of the abilities proposed so far: Poison Heal is a good contrast to intimidate, I'm assuming regenerator will recover way more than poison heal, and prankster is possibly the best ability it could get besides intimidate depending on the moves it gets.
So far I'm liking most of the abilities proposed so far: Poison Heal is a good contrast to intimidate, I'm assuming regenerator will recover way more than poison heal, and prankster is possibly the best ability it could get besides intimidate depending on the moves it gets.
Poison Heal is just going to make CAP annoyingly difficult to take down for no good reason. Not only is this thing bulky enough as is, but it gets an awesome dual STAB and 115 base Sp. Att with which to abuse it. Offensive Sub sets will become wildly popular in short order and turn it into both a catch-all defensive Pokemon and top threat we have to prepare for, both of which ignore the primary idea behind its creation.
Intimidate is perfect for the concept because steals momentum on the spot and doesn't overstay its welcome. True momentum reversals do not last the entire match in the form of free healing and perpetual Substitutes.
Magic Bounce and Prankster, however, are right up CAP1's alley. Magic Bounce gives us just the thing we need to combat defensive playstyles by winging back status moves and punishing attempts to set up entry hazards. Pokemon like Ferrothorn and Forretress will be forced out every time, possibly even with a layer or two of Spikes on their side of the field. Even better than simply being immune to Toxic or Will-o-Wisp is hitting its user right back, further discouraging it from staying in and allowing the match to sway quickly in your favor.
Prankster reverses momentum in another interesting way, giving you priority on any number of useful status and support moves, meaning we can paralyze or burn sweepers to stop them in their tracks, reverse weather effects in the blink of an eye (having priority Rain Dance could especially be useful if CAP learned Hurricane), or swiftly Encore Sub/stat-up abusers to keep them from raising hell right away. Either one of these abilities would prove profitable for the idea of momentum-shifting.
Intimidate is perfect for the concept because steals momentum on the spot and doesn't overstay its welcome. True momentum reversals do not last the entire match in the form of free healing and perpetual Substitutes.
Magic Bounce and Prankster, however, are right up CAP1's alley. Magic Bounce gives us just the thing we need to combat defensive playstyles by winging back status moves and punishing attempts to set up entry hazards. Pokemon like Ferrothorn and Forretress will be forced out every time, possibly even with a layer or two of Spikes on their side of the field. Even better than simply being immune to Toxic or Will-o-Wisp is hitting its user right back, further discouraging it from staying in and allowing the match to sway quickly in your favor.
Prankster reverses momentum in another interesting way, giving you priority on any number of useful status and support moves, meaning we can paralyze or burn sweepers to stop them in their tracks, reverse weather effects in the blink of an eye (having priority Rain Dance could especially be useful if CAP learned Hurricane), or swiftly Encore Sub/stat-up abusers to keep them from raising hell right away. Either one of these abilities would prove profitable for the idea of momentum-shifting.
THANK YOU
This is what I was trying to get at. Poison Heal doesn't make for a good "momentum Pokemon", it makes for a good tank. But we aren't creating a tank. We're creating a momentumon
This isn't personally directed at you, DrkSlay, but rather to Poison Heal rebuttal in general. You just happened to bring up the best points about it so far. :P
Effective Status Immunity:
You definitely underplay the significance of it. You state the use of immunity to each status type in a very minimalist fashion. Really, any residual damage (Burn, Poison) is definitely going to hurt CAP 1, Paralysis absolutely sucks for the speed drop and especially the 25% Full Paralysis chance (which is one of the biggest Momentum-kills around), and Sleep always sucks (I'll ignore Freeze, but obviously that's pretty counter momentum too). All of these types of status are fairly common (Sleep less so, but there is still Breloom and Venusaur - who could actually probably be handled pretty well by PH CAP 1). And all have moderately to extremely adverse affects on it.
Effective damaging weather Immunity:
This is also quite handy. First of all, remember that CAP 1 isn't Sandstorm-immune like Gliscor is. Gliscor's SS immunity is a huge reason for its "staying power" (I'll get to that in a moment) and its ability to counter threats consistently on SS teams. Also, considering that SS is by far the most dominant weather condition, this means that CAP 1's healing will usually be reduced to regular Lefties amounts.
I also think that because CAP 1's typing and spread were largely designed to counter Sandstorm abusers (Exca, Landorus, and Terrakion were some of the big ones), the additional healing available in non-SS conditions (barring Hail) will help it to be useful against (and on) these teams as well.
Exceptional Staying Power:
As Dusk said, there shouldn't be anything wrong with this. CAP 1 is unlikely to be getting Spikes to abuse like Skarmory, and certainly won't be getting Boosters like Gliscor's Swords Dance, meaning that it won't be "setting up strategies" like these ones. I personally think that it is great if CAP 1 can stay in for a while. Dusk mentioned the utility of Toxic-stalling, and I consider any situation in which I don't have to switch for a number of turns, and can utilize secondary moves or decently powerful attacks for all of these turns a huge boon for momentum.
It isn't broken on CAP:
I already addressed this, so I'll just restate the two major points. First, CAP 1 is vulnerable to SS damage, meaning it loses a large part of the healing that Gliscor has in SS (which is extremely common). Secondly, CAP 1 is not setting up any end-game scenarios without hazards or boosting moves to make use of (barring spreading paralysis maybe to allow a slower pokemon sweep).
I also think Dusk makes a good point about Poison Heal being different from Intimidate, in the way it functions and how it helps momentum.
Finally, concerning Overcoat. I find using a secondary ability like this (or stuff like Battle Armor), very pointless alongside an ability like Intimidate. Nobody is going to use these abilities when Intimidate is around, and I would personally much rather vote for "No Secondary Ability" than something unnecessary like this. All it does is make things harder for artists (who can win or lose polls based on how their art fits abilities) and overcomplicate things. (And a question for reachzero, is "No Secondary Ability" always supposed to be an option on all of the Secondary Ability Polls, even if, say, it didn't receive enough votes to make it to the next round? I thought this was the case, though I may be wrong.)
Of course, I'm not saying Poison Heal is undoubtably the best ability around. I just wanted to address some arguments against it that I don't agree with.
Effective Status Immunity:
You definitely underplay the significance of it. You state the use of immunity to each status type in a very minimalist fashion. Really, any residual damage (Burn, Poison) is definitely going to hurt CAP 1, Paralysis absolutely sucks for the speed drop and especially the 25% Full Paralysis chance (which is one of the biggest Momentum-kills around), and Sleep always sucks (I'll ignore Freeze, but obviously that's pretty counter momentum too). All of these types of status are fairly common (Sleep less so, but there is still Breloom and Venusaur - who could actually probably be handled pretty well by PH CAP 1). And all have moderately to extremely adverse affects on it.
Effective damaging weather Immunity:
This is also quite handy. First of all, remember that CAP 1 isn't Sandstorm-immune like Gliscor is. Gliscor's SS immunity is a huge reason for its "staying power" (I'll get to that in a moment) and its ability to counter threats consistently on SS teams. Also, considering that SS is by far the most dominant weather condition, this means that CAP 1's healing will usually be reduced to regular Lefties amounts.
I also think that because CAP 1's typing and spread were largely designed to counter Sandstorm abusers (Exca, Landorus, and Terrakion were some of the big ones), the additional healing available in non-SS conditions (barring Hail) will help it to be useful against (and on) these teams as well.
Exceptional Staying Power:
As Dusk said, there shouldn't be anything wrong with this. CAP 1 is unlikely to be getting Spikes to abuse like Skarmory, and certainly won't be getting Boosters like Gliscor's Swords Dance, meaning that it won't be "setting up strategies" like these ones. I personally think that it is great if CAP 1 can stay in for a while. Dusk mentioned the utility of Toxic-stalling, and I consider any situation in which I don't have to switch for a number of turns, and can utilize secondary moves or decently powerful attacks for all of these turns a huge boon for momentum.
It isn't broken on CAP:
I already addressed this, so I'll just restate the two major points. First, CAP 1 is vulnerable to SS damage, meaning it loses a large part of the healing that Gliscor has in SS (which is extremely common). Secondly, CAP 1 is not setting up any end-game scenarios without hazards or boosting moves to make use of (barring spreading paralysis maybe to allow a slower pokemon sweep).
I also think Dusk makes a good point about Poison Heal being different from Intimidate, in the way it functions and how it helps momentum.
Finally, concerning Overcoat. I find using a secondary ability like this (or stuff like Battle Armor), very pointless alongside an ability like Intimidate. Nobody is going to use these abilities when Intimidate is around, and I would personally much rather vote for "No Secondary Ability" than something unnecessary like this. All it does is make things harder for artists (who can win or lose polls based on how their art fits abilities) and overcomplicate things. (And a question for reachzero, is "No Secondary Ability" always supposed to be an option on all of the Secondary Ability Polls, even if, say, it didn't receive enough votes to make it to the next round? I thought this was the case, though I may be wrong.)
Of course, I'm not saying Poison Heal is undoubtably the best ability around. I just wanted to address some arguments against it that I don't agree with.
I've decided to kind of take more of a back seat approach for Ability 2 and comment on the seriously argued suggestions.
I would like Ability 2 to shift away from resistance-based, purely reactionary tactics and toward a more proactive approach to momentum. Cursed Body fits this almost like a glove. Although I fear that it will discourage Substitute, it makes up for this by promoting staying power and the ability to cripple the opponent even if CAP 1 is KOed. Prankster also fits this really well due to the wide pool of possible non-attacking moves that CAP 1 can abuse to do bad things to switch-ins, making this more of a short-term momentum-carrying option.
On the Poison Heal vs Regenerator controversy: Ultimately, "momentum" can be said to consist of "mass" and "velocity". I would say that "mass" in this case refers to staying power, while "velocity" refers to the impact made in a short time. It's clear at this point that Poison Heal promotes the former while Regenerator promotes the latter, as Rising_Dusk and tophway demonstrated. What I'm trying to say here is that both are perfectly valid ways to achieve the concept, and both of these abilities in particular will rely on certain quirks in the movepool stage to come off as "momentum-shifting" and not just "momentum-carrying" like Gliscor.
I don't like Cloud Nine. It seems like it's doing more of the same as Intimidate, except it works more like a panic button check in nature. Sure, it allows CAP 1 to beat Terrakion in sand, which is why I supported it at first, but like I said, I ultimately want to move away from reactionary abilities.
I also don't like Compoundeyes / No Guard. I believe that an ability like these will promote offense a bit too much, as offensive CAP 1 will be able to beat defensive CAP 1 easily.
Ultimately, I think that staying power (or "mass", as it were) should be emphasized in Ability 2. We really already have an immediate-shift (or "velocity") ability in Intimidate, so an ability that contrasts this as much as possible would be beneficial. On the other hand, I think that DarkSlay has a pretty convincing argument that Poison Heal may bring CAP 1 closer to something like Gliscor (though I think he's exaggerating a bit and saying much of the same things that he said about Volt Absorb Voodoom). All this is why I'm leaning toward Cursed Body at this time due to the threat that it poses throughout its stay. However, it's highly arguable that Prankster also promotes something similar.
I would like Ability 2 to shift away from resistance-based, purely reactionary tactics and toward a more proactive approach to momentum. Cursed Body fits this almost like a glove. Although I fear that it will discourage Substitute, it makes up for this by promoting staying power and the ability to cripple the opponent even if CAP 1 is KOed. Prankster also fits this really well due to the wide pool of possible non-attacking moves that CAP 1 can abuse to do bad things to switch-ins, making this more of a short-term momentum-carrying option.
On the Poison Heal vs Regenerator controversy: Ultimately, "momentum" can be said to consist of "mass" and "velocity". I would say that "mass" in this case refers to staying power, while "velocity" refers to the impact made in a short time. It's clear at this point that Poison Heal promotes the former while Regenerator promotes the latter, as Rising_Dusk and tophway demonstrated. What I'm trying to say here is that both are perfectly valid ways to achieve the concept, and both of these abilities in particular will rely on certain quirks in the movepool stage to come off as "momentum-shifting" and not just "momentum-carrying" like Gliscor.
I don't like Cloud Nine. It seems like it's doing more of the same as Intimidate, except it works more like a panic button check in nature. Sure, it allows CAP 1 to beat Terrakion in sand, which is why I supported it at first, but like I said, I ultimately want to move away from reactionary abilities.
I also don't like Compoundeyes / No Guard. I believe that an ability like these will promote offense a bit too much, as offensive CAP 1 will be able to beat defensive CAP 1 easily.
Ultimately, I think that staying power (or "mass", as it were) should be emphasized in Ability 2. We really already have an immediate-shift (or "velocity") ability in Intimidate, so an ability that contrasts this as much as possible would be beneficial. On the other hand, I think that DarkSlay has a pretty convincing argument that Poison Heal may bring CAP 1 closer to something like Gliscor (though I think he's exaggerating a bit and saying much of the same things that he said about Volt Absorb Voodoom). All this is why I'm leaning toward Cursed Body at this time due to the threat that it poses throughout its stay. However, it's highly arguable that Prankster also promotes something similar.
I believe that the ideal ability would be Prankster. Intimidate makes it a strong way to counter some of the strongest physical offensive threats (Excadrill, Blaziken, Landorus, etc.), and it isn't meant to work too well against the special threats. Now it needs an ability that will help it against defensive threats. Prankster can give it priority Taunt or Substitute, allowing it to effectively shut down the defensive mons and regain momentum.
I also agree with Regenerator, because it can become a powerful weapon for switch advantage with Volt Switch/U-Turn. In an example scenario
Turn 1: CAP1 switches in on attack and takes damage.
Turn 2: Opponent switches to counter, CAP1 Volt Switches/U-Turns. CAP1 is back to full health, and you can switch to appropriate counter.
Yes, this is the most basic form of momentum gain, but it is still an import one.
I also agree with Regenerator, because it can become a powerful weapon for switch advantage with Volt Switch/U-Turn. In an example scenario
Turn 1: CAP1 switches in on attack and takes damage.
Turn 2: Opponent switches to counter, CAP1 Volt Switches/U-Turns. CAP1 is back to full health, and you can switch to appropriate counter.
Yes, this is the most basic form of momentum gain, but it is still an import one.
Since Cloud Nine has come up a lot, let's talk about it a little. On the right Pokemon, I think it can be a very strong anti-metagame ability. On the wrong Pokemon, it's useless. I want to be sure that people have a good grasp on what exactly Cloud Nine would do on CAP1. Keep in mind that Cloud Nine doesn't totally remove Weather conditions, it merely negates them. This means that Cloud Nine would only matter against Pokemon that CAP1 can beat without weather but can't with weather up--let's look at the list.
1. Excadrill--still outspeeds CAP1 even without Sand, Intimidate is better
2. Landorus--outspeeds CAP1, Intimidate is better
3. Venusaur--Cloud Nine works very well against Venusaur.
4. Sawsbuck--outspeeds CAP1, Intimidate is better
5. Leafeon--outspeeds CAP1, Intimidate is better
6. Garchomp--Aura Sphere is 100% accurate anyway
7. Darmanitan--outspeeds CAP1, Intimidate is a comparable effect
8. Tornadus--outspeeds CAP1 and OHKOs
9. Thundurus--outspeeds CAP1 and OHKOs
10. Tangrowth--Cloud Nine works very well against Tangrowth.
In other words, Cloud Nine is really only useful against Venusaur and Tangrowth. In my opinion, that is not nearly useful enough to really be worth it. In fact, if I want to handle conventional weather teams as well as possible, I would far rather have Snow Warning, which totally resets Weather to Hail, which very few teams really want. And no, Snow Warning Pokemon do not take Hail damage, even if they aren't Ice-type.
1. Excadrill--still outspeeds CAP1 even without Sand, Intimidate is better
2. Landorus--outspeeds CAP1, Intimidate is better
3. Venusaur--Cloud Nine works very well against Venusaur.
4. Sawsbuck--outspeeds CAP1, Intimidate is better
5. Leafeon--outspeeds CAP1, Intimidate is better
6. Garchomp--Aura Sphere is 100% accurate anyway
7. Darmanitan--outspeeds CAP1, Intimidate is a comparable effect
8. Tornadus--outspeeds CAP1 and OHKOs
9. Thundurus--outspeeds CAP1 and OHKOs
10. Tangrowth--Cloud Nine works very well against Tangrowth.
In other words, Cloud Nine is really only useful against Venusaur and Tangrowth. In my opinion, that is not nearly useful enough to really be worth it. In fact, if I want to handle conventional weather teams as well as possible, I would far rather have Snow Warning, which totally resets Weather to Hail, which very few teams really want. And no, Snow Warning Pokemon do not take Hail damage, even if they aren't Ice-type.
Did we establish that CAP would only be defensive, or can we give it something to help out it's attacking power? Maybe we could give it mold breaker or quick feet to help with it's less than favorable speed.
I think most people avoided mentioning weather-inducing abilities, assuming they were a bit too powerful, but if you're saying Snow Warning has a chance of being a CAP ability, I think that's worth discussing.
On the subject of Air Lock/Cloud Nine, I would personally prefer something of a Prankster + Weather Move strategy of controlling weather, possibly supporting your team and eventually removing weather altogether. It also lends to Momentum, as you can use something like Rain and Sun and then bring in a speed-based sweeper.
While in general I see your point, I just want to point out that it does substantially help against Rock Pokemon like Tyranitar and Terrakion as it eliminates their SpDef Boost. Also, it is superior to Intimidate against any Special based rain or sun sweepers. Its not my number 1 ability choice, but I do like it, and I just thought I'd point that out.
I honestly think Cloud Nine won't work well for CAP 1 as it cannot outspeed Adamant Excadrill without a Speed boosting nature and cannot outspeed Jolly Excadrill without a scarf...
I would like to draw attention back to Magic Bounce as it has the most versatility in terms of regaining momentum.
c/p
In addition, I would also like to support Magic Bounce. Magic Bounce is essentially an immunity to all status moves and can also reflect predicted entry hazards. Magic Bounce allows CAP 1 to counter Ferrothorn completely outside of Gyro Ball, and that can be PP stalled out with Roost (assuming CAP 1 gets Roost). Magic Bounce essentially means CAP 1 never has to worry about being stalled out by Toxic or Leech Seed and is also a surefire counter to Breloom, resisting both of its STAB moves and immunity to Spore. Magic Mirror is undoubtedly better on CAP 1 than Espeon or Xatu due to its above average defenses. In addition, it still maintains some offensive potential with 115 base Special Attack, equivalent of Lucario. CAP 1 also possesses arguably better STAB in Flying and Fighting than Espeon and Xatu. Magic Bounce gives CAP 1 numerous opportunities to regain momentum. Espeon's main problem was that it was to frail to survive any strong hits on the switch-in, even with defensive investment. Perhaps the only thing that Espeon has over CAP 1 with Magic Bounce is higher speed, but with CAP 1's defenses, high speed isn't all that important as long as it has decent speed to outrun stallers like Skarmory etc.
I would like to draw attention back to Magic Bounce as it has the most versatility in terms of regaining momentum.
c/p
In addition, I would also like to support Magic Bounce. Magic Bounce is essentially an immunity to all status moves and can also reflect predicted entry hazards. Magic Bounce allows CAP 1 to counter Ferrothorn completely outside of Gyro Ball, and that can be PP stalled out with Roost (assuming CAP 1 gets Roost). Magic Bounce essentially means CAP 1 never has to worry about being stalled out by Toxic or Leech Seed and is also a surefire counter to Breloom, resisting both of its STAB moves and immunity to Spore. Magic Mirror is undoubtedly better on CAP 1 than Espeon or Xatu due to its above average defenses. In addition, it still maintains some offensive potential with 115 base Special Attack, equivalent of Lucario. CAP 1 also possesses arguably better STAB in Flying and Fighting than Espeon and Xatu. Magic Bounce gives CAP 1 numerous opportunities to regain momentum. Espeon's main problem was that it was to frail to survive any strong hits on the switch-in, even with defensive investment. Perhaps the only thing that Espeon has over CAP 1 with Magic Bounce is higher speed, but with CAP 1's defenses, high speed isn't all that important as long as it has decent speed to outrun stallers like Skarmory etc.
With Prankster and/or priority moves like Vacuum Wave, the only real problem would be Poison/Burn damage. This could easily be worked around with good team building, i.e. Aromatherapy. Further, Regenerator solves this problem rather well and gives it a very different platform for helping its team. I really don't see the advantage here of status immunity on a momentum Pokemon as opposed to say, priority moves or weather lock. We aren't building a tank here. This is not supposed to be like a Gliscor. We're building a Pokemon that gives the rest of its team momentum and takes momentum away from an opponent who has gained it. This is why I support both Air Lock/Cloud Nine and Prankster.
The fact that having Poison Heal heals its health is, in my opinion, irrelevant. Leftovers does the same thing, and with an ability other than PH you have a lot more diversity in the amount of movesets that this Pokemon can use. I believe that this degree of unpredictability is much more advantageous for gaining momentum than, say, having a Pokemon that must use a certain item to capitalize on its secondary ability.
Agreed, but priority moves and Prankster, as well as making weather a non-issue with Air Lock and Cloud Nine, deal with these threats much, much better than a different form of Leftovers.
Tanking is not the point of this Pokemon. Furthermore, Intimidate already gives this Pokemon a good tanking ability. Why would you want it to gain another ability that ultimately does the same thing? This is counter-productive and the redundancy does not help with shifting momentum.
You keep comparing this Pokemon to Gliscor just because of this ability. There is no reason why it should function like a Gliscor other than to tank, which, as mentioned, it already does pretty well with Intimidate + Leftovers.
No, this is a terrible point. I've already pointed out the redundancy here though, so I'll leave it at that.
First off, the fact that artists haven't designed a Pokemon that has the ability to have Overcoat/Battle Armor is a retarded reason to not use it. How would DJD's plane design use Poison Heal, for that matter? And furthermore, CAP should NOT be limited in its usefulness by the art chosen for it. This is counterproductive, and again, retarded.
It's not. I agree with you there.
I also really like Mold Breaker for this Pokemon, as it gives it a very different, though still mostly defensive (which is, I guess, what the heads of this project are wanting for a momentum Pokemon—I disagree strongly with giving a momentum Pokemon two ultimately defensive abilities) function than Intimidate.
reachzero's Snow Warning is also a very good idea. It (1) greatly disrupts most weather teams, and (2) would have a valuable niche in giving Hail teams new life this generation, thus stopping an opponent's momentum and jumpstarting your own on the switch-in.
Prankster
There is a few ways this ability can aid in achieving momentum, with move limiting moves like Taunt, Encore, Torment, Disable. Most notably Encore creates allot of momentum, Not only by encoring non damaging moves but with CAP1's bulk switching in on a resisted to encore it and simply roost of the damage. Or even encoring the Earth Quake you just switched in to as they go for their coverage move. Your opponent might see the incoming Encore and try get a free switch of their own which you can out predict and go set up a substitute or any other move.
Encore isn't the only usable utility move of the mentioned, Torment and Disable kind of goes in the same boat. Switch in on a safe move, Protect or Substitute to take the Dangerous move and then disable or torment it stopping them both this and following turn. Then you can roost off the damage go for an attack. It isn't as effective as Encore because it only limits the use of 1 move and they can still attack with a 3rd neutral attack and don't stop set uppers the same way. While Taunt work against more defensive mons.
Other way would be moves to drop the threat lvl opposing pokemon. Like Burning or Feather Dancing their physical Sweeper. Setting Up a screen before your opponent hit. Priority Roost as well, Healing up and reducing the damage of Feared Electric or ice attacks. Substitute becomes a better move too.
Hope this isn't considered as poll jumping as i went through almost all moves it could potentially get benefit from Prankster with. It wouldn't have to get any of these moves. But if i weren't to mention any of these the argument for it would been a bit pointless as the ability directly affects certain moves.
There is a few ways this ability can aid in achieving momentum, with move limiting moves like Taunt, Encore, Torment, Disable. Most notably Encore creates allot of momentum, Not only by encoring non damaging moves but with CAP1's bulk switching in on a resisted to encore it and simply roost of the damage. Or even encoring the Earth Quake you just switched in to as they go for their coverage move. Your opponent might see the incoming Encore and try get a free switch of their own which you can out predict and go set up a substitute or any other move.
Encore isn't the only usable utility move of the mentioned, Torment and Disable kind of goes in the same boat. Switch in on a safe move, Protect or Substitute to take the Dangerous move and then disable or torment it stopping them both this and following turn. Then you can roost off the damage go for an attack. It isn't as effective as Encore because it only limits the use of 1 move and they can still attack with a 3rd neutral attack and don't stop set uppers the same way. While Taunt work against more defensive mons.
Other way would be moves to drop the threat lvl opposing pokemon. Like Burning or Feather Dancing their physical Sweeper. Setting Up a screen before your opponent hit. Priority Roost as well, Healing up and reducing the damage of Feared Electric or ice attacks. Substitute becomes a better move too.
Hope this isn't considered as poll jumping as i went through almost all moves it could potentially get benefit from Prankster with. It wouldn't have to get any of these moves. But if i weren't to mention any of these the argument for it would been a bit pointless as the ability directly affects certain moves.
As the ATL, I've been following this project very closely, and for good reason. In all of this project, nowhere—and I mean nowhere—have we (reachzero or myself) said that CAP1 should not or cannot be a good tank. As a matter of fact, CAP1 will likely be far superior in its job of grabbing and abusing momentum if it is a successful tank.guddagudda said:
No, Regenerator really doesn't solve any problems. Lots of people seem to be too graciously accepting that on average, CAP1 gets more healing from Regenerator than Poison Heal. What they are underplaying the severity of is the fact that CAP1 has to switch out in order to actually get that healing. While this is spectacular for pivot scenarios or using Substitute once, attacking, and fleeing, it gives CAP1 absolutely no staying power whatsoever and makes CAP1 with Regenerator play in much the exact same way as CAP1 with Intimidate. But the big problem is, I'd always rather Intimidate over Regenerator! (And you should too) The Attack drop helps you take on a ton of threats that you simply would not be able to with Regenerator, and allows CAP1 to threaten and/or OHKO them all with Aura Sphere (relevant since CAP1 is slower). Regenerator doesn't provide any of these benefits.guddagudda said:
You are thinking about this in a very strange manner not conducive to reality in Pokemon battles. Poison Heal is nothing like Intimidate. Intimidate only gives you a good tanking capacity on the switch-in turn against physical threats. That's great for checking and pivoting in against stuff like Excadrill or Landorus or <insert physical 'mon here>, but leaves you vulnerable the turn after switching in. Intimidate is not like Eviolite in that it constantly alters the stats of a Pokemon, and CAP1 really gains no longevity over multiple turns from the ability. Poison Heal is completely different in that regard, and due to its many assets, helps CAP1 stay in over multiple turns to achieve different momentum-grabbing strategies than it would otherwise be capable of (more successful Toxic stalling, for instance).guddagudda said:
I need to emphasize one last time that it is okay for CAP1 to tank, it is okay for CAP1 to stay in for several turns, and it is even more ok for CAP1 to be able to take hits and be a general pain to KO. There are many successful momentum grabbing Pokemon that do these things already, and CAP1 is not going to outclass any of them in a large way with Poison Heal. Please do not misinterpret what we have decided in Concept Assessment, because that may and likely will have an adverse effect on the CAP in general.
I didn't really want to get into this debate too much, but I think you completely missed the point here. First of all, you continually compared Poison Heal to Prankster or Regenerator after I blatantly stated that I was not trying to argue for or against Poison Heal over other abilities, just address some points for it. DarkSlay brought up some realistic problems with having Poison Heal as our secondary ability, and I did my best to show that these weren't, in my opinion, valid.
Now to address the flawed points you made.
The most important part of Paralysis that I pointed to was the Full Paralysis chance, which you ignored. You also ignored Sleep (and Freeze, though I agree with you on ignoring that one). You also talked about how Regenerator addresses the problems of Poison/Burn damage, when it really doesn't. Poison/Burn are problematic when you are staying in for a while, and Regenerator only activates on the switch-out (which, by the way, is my problem with Regenerator – it acts to alleviate a loss in momentum, rather than creating a gain in momentum).
You also seem to think that I was arguing for Poison Heal by showing how it would make CAP 1 similar to Gliscor, while I did the exact opposite. One of the largest problems that DarkSlay brought up was that Poison Heal would make CAP 1 too much like Gliscor, and I brought up Gliscor several times to show why I didn't think this was the case (Lack of SS Immunity, Lack of Boosting Moves, etc).
You missed the point here, since I was talking about how you still recover HP in SS...
Here I was talking about how CAP 1 could feasibly be less useful against non-SS teams (not how Poison Heal would help more than other abilities against SS teams). Against these teams, however, Poison heal will recover twice as much health as Leftovers, giving CAP 1 a bit of a boost in these situations. Not the greatest point I'll admit, since CAP 1 will be surely be effective regardless, but you still misunderstood what I was talking about.
Why do you say this? Survivability allows CAP 1 to switch in more, stay in (and thus maintain momentum) for more turns, and wear down opposing threats. Poison Heal and Intimidate are also very different in that Intimidate is effective immediately when you switch in, and goes away when the opponent switches out, while Poison Heal takes 1 turn to activate, and is mainly effective in the long-run.
This, however, is what I have the largest problem with. It's like you didn't even read what I wrote. The problem with inferior abilities like Overcoat is that they simply will not be used. If CAP 1 has Overcoat and Intimidate, 99% of people will run Intimidate. It's like Blissey having Serene Grace and Natural Cure, or Breloom having Effect Spore and Poison Heal. Both abilities are "good", but one is far better than the other on that particular Pokemon. So what is the point of including Overcoat? You also have the process backwards. Ability will be chosen before art is voted on, and art will be judged by a substantial number of voters as to whether it fits the abilities or not. This is a fact of CAP, and if you don't agree, than all I can say is that you don't have enough experience with CAP. So, an extra ability only makes it harder for artists to cater to the desires of the community. This isn't a competitive argument, it's to make things easier and more fair for the artists. I have personally chatted with a number of CAP artists, and I'm sure that they would agree with me on this.
I'm sorry if my response seems impolite, but frankly you responded to my post in a very rude fashion, and clearly misunderstood the bulk of my points. Again, I'm not trying to call anyone out, or say that Poison Heal is better than the abilities you suggested. (I said this before, but you responded to me by pointing out advantages of other abilities over Poison Heal.)
Prankster works well with the Flying/Fighting typing. With only its STABs it hits neutrally or super-effectively on a large majority of the metagame, which means it easily has 2 spots open for supporting moves. Status immunity in contrast with Poison Heal wouldn't be that big an issue with having priority attacks that can either prevent direct status inducement (Taunt, Substitute) or have moves that can cure status altogether (Heal Bell, Aromatherapy). These moves would provide more versatility than just preventing status, and stopping opposing rocks/spikes, or curing your whole team of poison or paralysis would be momentum shifting in its entirety.
Priority weather changing has also been mentioned, which seems plausible on this CAP and would do more for the team than just Air Lock/Cloud Nine. Snow Warning is also obsolesced because of this, though that would be absolutely hilarious just because of how it was brought up.
The point is, with a small, but defined supporting movepool, Prankster could provide momentum recovery as well as momentum creating opportunities. And that Poison Heal does not provide momentum recovery by itself, but rather relies on CAP 1 being the centre of the team's strategy in order to maintain momentum (It would be Toxic Stall's all-purpose wall, being able to kill off steels AND take hits).
For simplicities sake though, this poke should only be running 2 abilities. It would make it too unpredictable if it was running 2 abilities without an entering message.
Priority weather changing has also been mentioned, which seems plausible on this CAP and would do more for the team than just Air Lock/Cloud Nine. Snow Warning is also obsolesced because of this, though that would be absolutely hilarious just because of how it was brought up.
The point is, with a small, but defined supporting movepool, Prankster could provide momentum recovery as well as momentum creating opportunities. And that Poison Heal does not provide momentum recovery by itself, but rather relies on CAP 1 being the centre of the team's strategy in order to maintain momentum (It would be Toxic Stall's all-purpose wall, being able to kill off steels AND take hits).
For simplicities sake though, this poke should only be running 2 abilities. It would make it too unpredictable if it was running 2 abilities without an entering message.
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