Dragonite (Analysis)

[PlainN]

I agree somewhat with the poster above me. The biggest problem with Flamethrower is that it's affected by DM. So if you DM first, and then Nat or scizor comes in, I'm almost certain its not an OHKO.

@Thatguy: Your set looks interesting. Since I'm currently doing a round of DD tests, I'll definitely try it out. Even if your specific moves don't work out, I think you have the logic right. Bulky DD should be really, really bulky and offensive DD should focus on offense. I think the current Bulky DD is too focused on maintaining offensive firepower - max HP EVs isn't bulky enough to not be 2HKO by an ice move so I rather have a slower, less powerful, but insanely bulky nite than one that's in the middle.

 

[AccidentalGreed]

Since Classic MixNite is running SuperPower as a primary option, Inner Focus should be the only option as the ability on that set.

 

[November Blue]

Wow, I thought that this was all finalized, but so much has changed...

Also @ Delta I tried the parashuffler set and it was really underwhelming; it could paralyze and get up to 100% but if it wants to phaze it has to take a hit anyway and its gonna face the next thing out without having multiscale active which is why I suggested running heal bell so it can support the team more. Basically, multiscale is good on that dnite for when it first comes out but after that it's not so great "multiscale-wise".

Panamaxis, you're not using the set correctly. The aim is to stall for paralysis so you can phaze something in with either multiscale or a sub up. From there you can paralyze it and start the whole process over again. IMO it's one of the best multiscale abusers possible.

Please remove inner focus and heal bell from the analysis. Heal bell should be used on a dedicated cleric set, and the lack of multiscale destroys the parashuffler set entirely. How the hell did it even get added in the first place? Nobody discussed it!

I've been testing out a mono attacking set for mid game sweeping. Specially defensive EV spread as I like how he can tank icebeams as if his 4x weakness didn't exist.

Dragonite @ Leftovers
244 HP, 244 SpD, 20 Spd
Multiscale
-Dragon Claw
-Dragon Dance
-Roost
-Substitute

Multiscale protected substitutes are great. I can get DDs up inbetween most attacks to the point where the attack boost make dragon claw potent even without EV investments or a positive nature. Working very well for me right now. Very easily swaps into fighting type attacks onto something like blaziken that can't dent it and get a dragon dance off of the switch. If he uses swords dance I'll throw in a +1 dragon claw which is usually enough to kill blaziken with any residual damage from life orb or spikes. Pokemon that rely on status to stop dragonite are easily set up on if you sub the status, same goes for ferrothorn if you sub the leech seed (unable to set up if it has gyro ball though). A really great set, considering switching out claw for tail though for the added benefits of phasing, spreading spike damage and preventing freezes when roosting/subbing through ice attacks.

This caught my eye. What I would suggest though, is to run an offensive EV spread. This is just the DDnite set from the analysis with sub instead of a second attack.

Sub + roost and 388/426 speed (+1) would give him reasonable pseudo-bulk, and would allow him dance multiple times. I'm going to test this out.

We probably don't need any more sets ATM though...

 

[lulzer]

Done the modifications!
Now i think this is MUCH better, at least the feel of the Mixed sets, each one with it's better move options and role.
What you guys think?

 

[Bad Ass]

Remove Fire Punch, Heal Bell, and Inner Focus from the parashuffler set. It's a great set, but it really needs Multi scale.

Also I think Classic MixNite needs some speed so I'll figure out a spread.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

The second set is not exactly bulkier, it just has Roost.

I dunno. Dragonite is not Salamence. He is slower and his Special Attack's lower. For the long run, he's not as effective as Salamence with mixed sets except he has access to a couple moves his rival doesn't have. I just don't see why there needs to be two sets for it, hate to say after you made the effort in modifications. You're right, it's funny how the set is generating such arguments. Why can't we simply go between these two points? Multi-Scale or Superpower? Whatever is truly more effective or used often should be the primary option. If forgoing the strength of Superpower, slash it alongside Birck Break and bold out or explicitly state that Superpower is incompatible with Multi-Scale. Easy as that.

There is a distinct difference in the effort values though which makes them different. I think several more QC members should be giving opinions on this to finally put it to rest.

 

[lulzer]

The second set is not exactly bulkier, it just has Roost.

I dunno. Dragonite is not Salamence. He is slower and his Special Attack's lower. For the long run, he's not as effective as Salamence with mixed sets except he has access to a couple moves his rival doesn't have. I just don't see why there needs to be two sets for it, hate to say after you made the effort in modifications. You're right, it's funny how the set is generating such arguments. Why can't we simply go between these two points? Multi-Scale or Superpower? Whatever is truly more effective or used often should be the primary option. If forgoing the strength of Superpower, slash it alongside Birck Break and bold out or explicitly state that Superpower is incompatible with Multi-Scale. Easy as that.

There is a distinct difference in the effort values though which makes them different. I think several more QC members should be giving opinions on this to finally put it to rest.

The mixed set just went OMGWEIRD this generation...
Last gen it was so easy to understand, it was just like this: i want to break walls? DNite; i want to kinda sweep: go Mence; but this time it's not like that at all! Multi Scale just said "gtfo or i'll one shot you" to all other Dragons and to many Ice Beam users. That's a huuuuuuuge advantage DNite got over Mence, but again, as you said, Mence got better offensive stats.

If anyone plays League of Legends you will know the tanky dps metagame, DNite is exactly that, a tanky dps, meaning he can take lots of punishment while dealing heaps of damage, or at least enough to outlast his opponent.

And yeah... we need more QC members here! This analysis got the most discussion of them all and only 2 QC members dropped here =/

 

[lulzer]

Nobody got anything else to add? No? So bring the QC personel here! (They seem to dislike this thread... none of them come to check it in a while =/)

 

[PlainN]

Unfortunately, the plethora of debates we've had on this guy, while constructive, has left the actual analysis with just bare details. I mean, I don't see a single other analysis that has as many posts. Perhaps it's time to move on beyond bullet points? If you need help with anything (writing parts, etc.) Lulzer, pm me.

 

[Lightning Tiger]

Drizzle isnt going anywhere, so why dont you take the rain attacker set out of the optional changes section and put it with the other sets?

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

That may be possible now, since yes, Drizzle is staying. Here we go with more sets for this guy again, but if it proves effective....

 

[lulzer]

If we add another set we will scare the QC guys... And we all want to see this thing published don't we?

 

[PK Gaming]

After much deliberation, the QC team finally finished QC checking Dragonite.

• We decided that should you add a rain abuser set. Dragonite is quite effective on rain teams as a powerful bulky attacker.

name: Rain Abuser
move 1: Hurricane
move 2: Thunder / Dragon Pulse
move 3: Brick Break / Dragon Tail
move 4: Roost
ability: Multi Scale
item: Leftovers
nature: Modest
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe

• There shouldn't be 2 mixed sets. Merge them together and make classic the dominant one (mention New mixnite in AC)

The set order should be rearranged.

• Parashuffler was considered to be the most effective, and thus it should be the first set listed. After that, Dragon Dance follows as #2 and Choice Band and the Rain abuser make up #3 & #4. (However, they may switch in the future) and finally mixed should be last.

• Dragon Claw should get an AC mention on the CB set as a replacement for Outrage. Although its considerably weaker than Outrage, a Dragon Claw is useful l if you don't wanted to keep Dragonite from being locked in.

FULL SUMMARY:

Hide

[SET]
name: Parashuffler
move 1: Dragon Tail
move 2: Roost
move 3: Thunder Wave
move 4: Substitute
item: Leftovers
ability: Multi Scale
nature: Careful
EVs: 252 HP/ 252 SpD/ 4 Spe

[Set]
name: Dragon Dance
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Dragon Claw / Outrage
move 3: Fire Punch / Brick Break
move 4: Roost / Extremespeed
item: Leftovers / Lum Berry
ability: Multi Scale
nature: Adamant
Evs: 252 HP / 40 Atk / 216 Spe

[SET]
name: Choice Band
move 1: Outrage
move 2: Fire Punch
move 3: Dragon Claw / Waterfall
move 4: Extreme Speed
ability: Multi Scale
item: Choice Band
nature: Adamant
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 HP

name: Rain Abuser
move 1: Hurricane
move 2: Thunder / Dragon Pulse
move 3: Brick Break / Dragon Tail
move 4: Roost
ability: Multi Scale
item: Leftovers
nature: Modest
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe


[SET]
name: MixNite
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Extreme Speed / Roost
move 3: Fire Blast / Fire Punch
move 4: Superpower
ability: Inner Focus
item: Life Orb
nature: Rash
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spa / 4 Spe

Make the changes and you can consider this stamped.

 

[MewGod]

I prefer ice punch over fire punch, mainly because no one sees it comming, however I do realize that it would be better. If you are going to run outrage on the CB set take off dragon claw, it's entirely useless and I think dragon claw would be more useful.

 

[AccidentalGreed]

I prefer ice punch over fire punch, mainly because no one sees it comming, however I do realize that it would be better. If you are going to run outrage on the CB set take off dragon claw, it's entirely useless and I think dragon claw would be more useful.

Why have Ice Punch when you could hit perfectly harder with a STAB Outrage? A super effective Ice Punch is noticeably less powerful than a neutral Outrage on a neutral Pokemon, and for Steel-types? Fire Pinch is acceptable for this. For "no one sees it coming?" Sure, okay, but then you set up on in frog of so many things if Dragonite doesn't use a Dragon-type STAB. Outrage shouldn't be so discounted easily because the power difference between Dragon Claw and Outrage is so noticeable as well, so Dragon Claw is a great secondary STAB on the same set to prevent Dragonite from being locked. All in all. Ice Punch belongs in AC or OO, and the Dragon Claw / Outrage question should be a nonissue.

Also, finally, this gets a QC!

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

Parashuffler was considered to be the most effective, and thus it should be the first set listed.

This conclusion came after discussion by the QC members? Pretty impressive. I'm suprised none of the offensive sets are first, but it's cool to see the Parashuffler up there. I'm still using it on my teams and it seems that unless you're oppnent has a Ground Pokemon, it's almost impossible to stop its stride.

Should Surf be slash/mentioned on the rain sweeper for the boost it gets as well?

 

[PlainN]

I'm a little surprised at the ordering of the sets since I believe Dragonite's offensive potential is vastly underestimated, but I'm glad we got the QC approval!

I know this will be controversial, but I want the DD set to be rewritten. The current "BulkyDD" EV Spread is in sufficient to protect DNite from a 2HKO from an Ice or Dragon move, which would happen anyway given no defense investment. Moreover, robbing DNite of his offensive EVs makes him really weak, which is why even with 2 DDs, many bulky 'mons can take a hit and retaliate. Instead, I actually think we should have the offensive DDNite EV Spread and the bulky one's move-set. This is what I've been using for the last 2 weeks and it has by far been the most effective DNite set I've used. You can still get 2 DDs if you make the effort and this time, it hits so much harder. Even better, you can still roost off damage or LO recoil if the opponent gives you a break when you face a wall. The bulky DDNite should instead be something like what Thatguy wrote a few posts down - max investment in (special) defense. This will allow Dnite to survive an Ice Move without multi-scale thus netting another DD. Basically, my argument is that the current set is not bulky enough to be deemed "bulky" and not hard-hitting enough to be deemed "offensive". Tell me what you guys think.

 

[lulzer]

This...
Got...
QCed!

Well, I'll make the changes tonight probably. And then it's the friggin hard part of making paragraphs....

But anyway, thanks for now community and QC personel for all the discussion on this beast!
I think nobody actually expected him to change so much from one gen to the other and to see the firstly "crappy" set that Swift sent us as the most effective one. That alone shows how much a transformation the inferior mence suffered and now works as a completely different monster.

 

[Gairyuki789]

jes...I got directed in here to look for a good multi scale leader test choice, but geez there are so many to pick from I can't decide which one is good^^;

 

[lulzer]

jes...I got directed in here to look for a good multi scale leader test choice, but geez there are so many to pick from I can't decide which one is good^^;

For a lead i recommend either the bander with 252 HP / 252 Atk or the mixnite, but goin mix you can't use multi scale...

@thread: guys I'm having some weird issues with smogon in that I can't load most pages, so that makes working with this a hassle. Could someone find another 2 QC dudes to look on this? Bugmaniacbob said that he thinks PK Gaming only QCed for himself so we still need +2 until GP and paragraphs. I also asked this to PK but he never replied...

 

[shipship]

How about a Rain Choice Specs set?

It's not an inferior Mence or Hydreigon because it has different moves.

Dragonite @ Choice Specs
Nature: Modest
~ Hurricane
~ Draco Meteor
~ Thunder
~ Surf

Essentially has 3 STAB's in the Rain, with STAB Hurricane being the main attraction. I feel like the Rain Abuser listed just doesn't hit hard enough, so Choice Specs is a better way to nuke stuff in the Rain. This faces competition from Tornadus, but Dragonite has better defenses and resists more types, plus STAB Draco Meteor.

 

[EspyOwner]

This is a set I made and found to be extremely effective, even though it was made to be an anti-lead. (Before I figured out about the WiFi Clause.)


Dragonite (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Multiscale
EVs: 100 HP / 216 Def / 192 SDef
Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
- Roost
- Dragon Claw
- ExtremeSpeed
- Fire Blast

Damn thing can take Excadrill's +2 Rock Slide, Starmie's LO Ice Beam, and more. It's got the bulk to take 6% maximum from Kojondo's Fake Out, and a movepool to support its usefulness.

Sorry for the short summary, I'm no good at writing things like that. But yeah, Dragonite, cool shit.

 

[AccidentalGreed]

Dragonite (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Multiscale
EVs: 100 HP / 216 Def / 192 SDef
Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
- Roost
- Dragon Claw
- ExtremeSpeed
- Fire Blast

Damn thing can take Excadrill's +2 Rock Slide, Starmie's LO Ice Beam, and more. It's got the bulk to take 6% maximum from Kojondo's Fake Out, and a movepool to support its usefulness.

So what us the purpose of this set, exactly? It seems like a Defensive tank with just a little offensive presense.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

So what us the purpose of this set, exactly? It seems like a Defensive tank with just a little offensive presense.

That's really what it is.

Honestly, the set is probably not half bad (Multiscale allows Dragonite to do a lot of stuff), but there isn't much reason to use it over the other ones. I don't like that there are three strong offensive moves yet there are no EVs in either Attack or Special Attack. With a spread like that, you should be using some support/utility move(s) of some kind.

 

[RomeoMontague]

That's really what it is.

Honestly, the set is probably not half bad (Multiscale allows Dragonite to do a lot of stuff), but there isn't much reason to use it over the other ones. I don't like that there are three strong offensive moves yet there are no EVs in either Attack or Special Attack. With a spread like that, you should be using some support/utility move(s) of some kind.

Agreed, perhaps if EspyOwner decides to tell us what the moveset is intended to be used for but I don't see what he's seeing as it is. Though when I get the chance I'll test the EV spread as an alternative on the Swift's Parashuffler.