In-Game Tier List Discussion

[Vladimir]

It seems to me the only reason why Elgyem could stay at mid would be its utility as a Synchronizer.

Also how about moving Panpour to high? Simipour is amazing all the time throughout the game, with good mixed offensive stats and speed. Once I evolved it immediately when I received the Water Stone (b4 the 3rd gym), and it it did much better than when i was waiting till lvl 22 for Scald. Water Gun & Grass Knot give it awesome coverage till the Scald TM in Cold Storage, when mine was at lvl 28, so it didn't lose too much from evolving right away. It definately deserves high, the 2nd best Water-type after Samurrot.

Tympole falls a bit in usefulness mid-game, and its stats aren't too good, so *maybe* it should be moved to mid tier. Not too adamant on that one though.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Panpour > Tympole.

Both are terrible compared to Oshawott: Tympole is redundant if you have Oshawott as a starter, you don't even get Panpour until after Lenora.

With Snivy as your starter, Panpour is essentially good as your sole water type for that portion of the game, and Tympole still doesn't come after Lenora, where Panpour is likely to already have a level advantage by that point. Panpour > Tympole.

With Tepig as your starter, Tympole just slightly wins Panpour since you don't have Oshawott(Cheren took it). However, a patient person can easily wait for a Panpour to show itself in Pinwheel(I assume a lot of people don't care about rarity with Sigilyph parking its ass there in top tier), thus Tympole's sole advantage is the gym, which Timburr/Throh/Sawk easily stomps.

Panpour > Tympole. Not to mention Scald by Route 4 as well as Darumakas and Sandiles for training = <3

 

[shadowbone66]

I disagree with the current list. Cottonee should be top tier. Give it Eviolite/Big Root and Prankster, and you have an outstanding seeder/statuser/statfucker/etc. The in-game traded one has been really useful for me.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

The fuck do you want to stall when you can OHKO stuff with Darumaka.

we are rating efficiency. :/

 

[Raikaria]

I disagree with the current list. Cottonee should be top tier. Give it Eviolite/Big Root and Prankster, and you have an outstanding seeder/statuser/statfucker/etc. The in-game traded one has been really useful for me.

And how long does it take for Cottonee to kill anything like that?

Ages.

The teir lists are based on getting through the game ASAP. Cottonee is dreadful for this, usually just having to waste time seeding everything and waiting. Why wait 10+ turns to kill something when you can kill it in one or two? The only reason Cottonee even hits mid is because it's avaliable early, and is so good at messing up its foes.

 

[AriadosPerson]

If you are patient enough, you can get Panpour in Pinwheel Forest, which shuts Tympole up forever.

*considering rarity isn't an issue imo with Sigilyph up there*

However, a patient person can easily wait for a Panpour to show itself in Pinwheel(I assume a lot of people don't care about rarity with Sigilyph parking its ass there in top tier), thus Tympole's sole advantage is the gym, which Timburr/Throh/Sawk easily stomps.

There is a collosal difference between 10% in normal encounters (Sigi) and 10% in shaking grass (Panpour), especially given the huge size of Pinwheel Forest and the fact that a good portion of it is inaccessable pre-Bicycle/Surf.

If you really want to push Sigilyph out of High due to rarity, I hope you realize that that involves bumping down Sawk and Throh, and possibly Drilbur along with it.

A minor, one-time inconvenience (unless you're looking for good Natures, in which case there's something wrong with you) does not negate a game's worth of strength and speed.

 

[Ondore]

For what it's worth, the area in Pinwheel Forest that has the mandatory double battle is a separate area from the main forest but has similar encounter rates. (The main forest has the lusher grass.) It took 15 minutes on my last run to get a full set of monkeys + Lilligant out of shaking grass in White.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

There is a collosal difference between 10% in normal encounters (Sigi) and 10% in shaking grass (Panpour), especially given the huge size of Pinwheel Forest and the fact that a good portion of it is inaccessable pre-Bicycle/Surf.

If you really want to push Sigilyph out of High due to rarity, I hope you realize that that involves bumping down Sawk and Throh, and possibly Drilbur along with it.

A minor, one-time inconvenience (unless you're looking for good Natures, in which case there's something wrong with you) does not negate a game's worth of strength and speed.

Which part isn't accessible without the Bicycle?

Also, 10% may seem low to you, but its annoying to me, and likely some other BW players. I had to spend 1 entire hour for a Magic Guard Sigilyph(I found another Sigilyph earlier but it had lolwut Skin). I swear, Maractus loves me more than Sigilyph, I found at least 10 of them while searching for a Sigilyph.

(not like I needed it, since I had Victini, but still...)

Tierlists are supposed to rate efficiency, and wasting time looking for a Sigilyph when you can use a way lesser amount of time to catch a Darumaka and use it instead means that Sigilyph is quite rubbish when it comes to efficiency. Sure, it may be the best Psychic, but I don't want one that takes me an hour to find, period.

 

[Heroism]

Hide

You should have seen Citizen's post... but never mind, I'll spoil it for you, you are supposed to have Ike attack BK in 3-7, both survive, and if its ur 2nd PT and BK was deployed in 1-E, you get Sephiran in 4-E-5. As BK 2HKOs Ike, it is imperative for Ike to hit 27 speed to avoid getting doubled. That was what I meant.

Also, if you are gonna use Darumaka + Victory Star, why not simply have Victini solo the gym? Victory Star only works in doubles/triples anyway.

Hide

BTW, you're not spoiling it for me, I've played this game over many times... That's also why I said to use a spectre card, as Ike won't eat a counterattack.

Yeah, I guess, but I found that Victini has trouble OHKOing things (when you first get it), but Darumaka doesn't. Well, my argument is fail since the basis was wrong, so yeah.

 

[kenney852]

Also, 10% may seem low to you, but its annoying to me, and likely some other BW players. I had to spend 1 entire hour for a Magic Guard Sigilyph(I found another Sigilyph earlier but it had lolwut Skin). I swear, Maractus loves me more than Sigilyph, I found at least 10 of them while searching for a Sigilyph.

Tierlists are supposed to rate efficiency, and wasting time looking for a Sigilyph when you can use a way lesser amount of time to catch a Darumaka and use it instead means that Sigilyph is quite rubbish when it comes to efficiency. Sure, it may be the best Psychic, but I don't want one that takes me an hour to find, period.

It seems to me like you just had bad luck. Maractus and Sigilyph are uncommon, but they have the same encounter rate, so if you found 10 Maractus looking for a Magic Guard Sigilyph, someone else could find 10 Sigilyphs looking for a Maractus.

Sigilyph should stay Top tier, and speaking of Maractus, I think it should move up a tier for the reasons stated above. I didn't use one for the whole game, but I tested it and was definitely not Bottom or Low tier material.

 

[Kikuichimonji]

I'm in favor of either moving Tympole down or Panpour up; I don't think anyone has stepped up to argue that Tympole is actually better than Panpour, let alone belonging an entire tier higher.

Tympole has really cruddy stats, even post-evolution. He gets 85/85 attack stats and the fact that he has to wait until level 36 to achieve that level of mediocrity is just insulting. Its movepool is also quite bad past the early stages of the game. Bubble Beam is great at level 12, but Bubble Beam and Mud Shot are your only STABs until Muddy Water at level 28. Uproar (level 23) is okay (it was buffed to 90 power in gen 5) but it's not that much better than Return, which becomes available about the same time in the game. Surf and Earthquake don't come nearly early enough to redeem him, and the fact that he can't learn Blizzard is just the final kick in the groin. The only thing that Tympole has going for it is its typing, which is admittedly one of the best in the game, but its cruddy stats and movepool prevent it from making effective use of that typing. Definitely not top tier material and I'd consider moving it down to mid.

Panpour's stats blow Seismitoad's out of the water, with a nice 98/98 attack spread. That's very respectable by end-game standards, and the fact that he has access to those stats before the third gym is absolutely fantastic. Learning a 80-power STAB at level 22 is also much better than anything Tympole can boast for most of the game.

Regarding rarity, having 10% chance of appearing in shaking grass does suck, but if you picked Snivy, it is literally just given to you, which is the best possible rarity a Pokemon can have.

 

[Colonel M]

What the... I could've sworn Panpour had a Medium EXP growth and Tympole had Medium High...

...Well I can't disagree with that. So Tympole down a tier or Panpour up a tier?

 

[Kikuichimonji]

Tympole is definitely mid-tier material, and I'm tempted to say that Panpour could go up a tier. I think that Panpour (Snivy) is probably high tier material, while wild Panpour can stay in (upper) mid.

I also just noticed that Conkeldurr is on the list but Gigalith is not. Gigalith seems like upper-mid tier material but I'm reluctant to nominate it for top tier. On one hand, Roggenrola's stats are pretty good for when you get him, and having 135 base attack at level 25 is always nice. On the other hand, it lacks opportunities to utilize that nice attack stat. Rock Blast and Rock Slide are both 90% accurate attacks with 10 PP each, and Stone Edge is a 80% accurate attack with 5 PP. Its 25 base speed ensures that it will be going last the majority of the time, which severely hampers efficiency. (Quick Claw is available at the end of Pinwheel Forest, but its activation rate is only 20%.) Apart from those STABs, all it gets access to is normal attacks. I'd put Roggenrola in lower-mid and Gigalith in upper-mid.

 

[R_N]

I used a Gigalith, and it was interesting.
As a Roggenrolla, Headbutt is pretty slick and it gets the wonderful Rock Blast shortly after. Thanks to its defenses, sturdy, and Rock Blast, it made Lenora & Burgh fairly easy.
I evolved it twice to Gigalith in Nimbasa, and it was a monster as expected, and getting Bulldoze from Clay helped out its movepool (I also taught it Strength).

But as the game went on from that point, it didn't really stand out as much. It definitely saved me more then a few times, but I found myself using it less and less as different opponents and options showed up. I don't regret using it, but it became somewhat cumbersome. But that early-to-mid utility can't be denied, even as just a Roggenrola.

I really have to say that Rock Blast is amazing. It never left his move set after he learned it. The fairly good potential for reaching Rock Slide levels or more was wonderful to have, and I made a point to give him the Scope Lens as well. Nothing quite like multiple criticals to save the day, and it just wrecked so many things even when it was hitting neutral or sometimes NVE.

 

[Nugget]

I'm gonna go ahead and say Tympole kind of sucks, especially later in the game. I used one, and by the time I got to Mistralton it was all but useless. It doesn't even get Earthquake via level up. Almost any water type is better.
EDIT: Oh and no Waterfall is really dumb, but that doesn't matter until postgame anyway.

 

[Vladimir]

So Tympole down a tier or Panpour up a tier?

Both, but the latter for sure. Panpour can be evolved to Simipour (98 atk/sp.atk and 101 speed) b4 the 3rd gym and, unlike the rest of the monkeys, it doesn't lose much movepool-wise, seeing as the Scald TM is found shortly after the 4th gym, till which point Water Gun is powerful enough to get the job done.

 

[Showsni]

There is a collosal difference between 10% in normal encounters (Sigi) and 10% in shaking grass (Panpour), especially given the huge size of Pinwheel Forest and the fact that a good portion of it is inaccessable pre-Bicycle/Surf.

Why does that affect anything? Shaking spots only appear within sight of you. Plus every time you miss Panpour you get useful experience from Audino; when you miss Sigilyph you just have to fight an annoying Sandile or whatever.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Why does that affect anything? Shaking spots only appear within sight of you. Plus every time you miss Panpour you get useful experience from Audino; when you miss Sigilyph you just have to fight an annoying Sandile or whatever.

Exactly my point. The only time you lose is if its Pansage/sear. If its a wild Whimsicott/Lilligant, congrats, you just trolled the game.

(although Audino grinding isn't really a good point for discussing tier lists, but still...)

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Please don`t use Gigalith. It dies. A lot.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Please don`t use Gigalith. It dies. A lot.

Spam items to keep it at full HP?

Sturdy fuck yeah.

 

[Sajak]

I didn't evolve my Boldor (nobody to trade with :( ) and had it hold the Eviolite the entire time. It rarely died, and I never had it lead my team (it was always in slot 2), so all of it's experience came from double battles or switching in during trainer battles and it still stayed at the same level as my party. Rock STAB is pretty darn good in this game, and once I taught it Bulldoze Boldore had no trouble with anything (QuakeEdge coverage :P). With the Eviolite, he ended up taking SE hits and still being above half HP, so I really didn't have any issues with him, and he ended up taking out N's Reshiram by himself in two turns.

tl;dr Boldore is a very sturdy teammate. ;D

 

[Chieliee]

Exactly my point. The only time you lose is if its Pansage/sear. If its a wild Whimsicott/Lilligant, congrats, you just trolled the game.

(although Audino grinding isn't really a good point for discussing tier lists, but still...)

Remembers me (off topic warning). I was playing through the Japanese game, found a shaking spot for the 1st time in the pinwheel forest. I was like: wtf is that? Shiny? Then I encountered a Lilligant. For some reason I didn't even try to catch it.

 

[The Cicada]

Hmm, nobody seems to be discussing Leavanny..........

 

[blasphemy1]

Leavanny is good, but when you get it there's really nothing to train against and the next gym is bug which it is weak to... after that is the electric gym, and all three of Elesa's Pokemon can hit you for 4x damage. The only gym you'll really have a chance to gain a good chunk of XP against is Driftveil. It doesn't do all that well against the Elite Four, either, since it is just too frail to set up on stuff like Scrafty or Reuniclus. It helps against Team Plasma in some cases, but it just isn't that great in the major battles.

 

[The Cicada]

Leavanny is good, but when you get it there's really nothing to train against and the next gym is bug which it is weak to... after that is the electric gym, and all three of Elesa's Pokemon can hit you for 4x damage. The only gym you'll really have a chance to gain a good chunk of XP against is Driftveil. It doesn't do all that well against the Elite Four, either, since it is just too frail to set up on stuff like Scrafty or Reuniclus. It helps against Team Plasma in some cases, but it just isn't that great in the major battles.

You can train it in that elevator in castelia city with all those trainers, and you can go to the desert and knock the crap out of some sandiles. I swept Elesa's whole team with Leavanny (mine evolved to Leavanny before the gym) Return was dealing massive amounts of damage to here Emolga's, and there Aerial Ace was failing to even 2hko (yeah, mine was that damn bulky).