np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

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jas61292

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Afterall, some of us don't want to ban nerf unbroken pokemon to save one obviously broken Ability.
I love when people act all superior with things like this. You think it is broken or so is obviously broken.

If it was really broken it would have been banned. Its not. So it wasn't, and shouldn't be. I am up for discussion about it, but not with people who will just say "I'm right so I will ignore your arguments."
 
I'd imagine a Ludicolo ban would stir up even more controversy than the Blaziken ban :naughty:

El nuevo y mejorado Smogcast # 11: Una visión objetiva de Ludicolo
 
I'd imagine a Ludicolo ban would stir up even more controversy than the Blaziken ban :naughty:

El nuevo y mejorado Smogcast # 11: Una visión objetiva de Ludicolo
Perhaps it would, perhaps it would not. Either way, I think it's the best way to proceed from here.
 
If Ludicolo is banned because of freaking Drizzle i may just bust a nut. Id rather just ban freaking Politoed, the all problems will be solved.

How many pokemon must you people ban to preserve drizzle?, its ridiculous just get rid of Drizzle and then nobody needs to be banned.
 

UltiMario

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It does make sense. Pokemon with Swift Swim that weren't devastating sweepers were nerfed unfairly and the only "broken" piece of the puzzle is Politoed's drizzle, which is why I suggested banning it. My complaint was that the aforementioned ban is what was necessary as shown by rain's continued dominance and and that Aldaron's Proposal helped the problem but didn't go far enough. Sorry for the confusion.
How is it unfair that SSers got nerfed this way when banning Drizzle nerfs them more?

If you vote to ban Drizzle, you have to realize you're only making these mons worse, you're not like un-nerfing them by banning Drizzle or anything, and then by taking SSers out of the equation, Drizzle is then balanced. This doesn't change normal rain at all, so if you want to use your SSers, then go get a Damp Rock, by all means.

YES, by a point of view we can say we nerfed SSers, but by doing so, we nerfed Drizzle to allow more diversity in the metagame. If we banned Drizzle, we would nerf them even more, so even mentioning how "unfairly SSers were nerfed" is absolutely bs, when we could've made them even worse by flat-out banning drizzle. The only way they WOULDN'T be nerfed is by ALLOWING Drizzle+SS. You can't slam together two popular ideas into one argument and make it work.
 

jas61292

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If Ludicolo is banned because of freaking Drizzle i may just bust a nut. Id rather just ban freaking Politoed, the all problems will be solved.

How many pokemon must you people ban to preserve drizzle?, its ridiculous.
If you really want that, provide some reasons. Just saying what we should do without an reason is not constructive. I don't want to pick on you specifically, but it just keeps happening. If you really want it banned, just give a good reason why.
 
Going to repeatedly point out that argument is horrendous again because banning Toed hurts SSers more, now you can't even give them double STAB on one of their weaker abilties, and you can still use Rain Dance + SS if you really want to.
I'm not saying SSers aren't going to be hurt. Rather that targeting them ignored the bigger issue, Drizzle.

You can't argue that the current system unfairly nerfs unbroken Pokemon, while stating that Drizzle is broken. You just can't. Drizzle can at least help these mons a little bit, but without it they're all completely worthless and banished to the depths of NU, etc.
I'm trying to say that the current system isn't going far enough. Even if they are going down to NU, etc. the ability Drizzle is still overpowered. I'm not saying save SwiftSwim, ban Drizzle. Sorry is I confused you, grammar isn't my forte. But Drizzle gives support in waves to more than just swift swimmers and that's why I think it's broken.

I love when people act all superior with things like this. You think it is broken or so is obviously broken.
That's not acting superior. It's stating an opinion with a dysphemism. Rain's dominance, the complaints about it, rise of counter-weathers, powering of steel types by halving fire type moves, automatically giving an extra stab, and breaking ssers so much a restraining order was ordered for it is what I based my argument off of. The evidence is obvious.

If it was really broken it would have been banned. Its not. So it wasn't, and shouldn't be. I am up for discussion about it, but not with people who will just say "I'm right so I will ignore your arguments."
No offense to the suspect voters, but I respectfully say that I think those who voted to keep Drizzle were wrong. I am up for discussion, but back it up with more than voting results. Voting accurately shows what is popular, not what is always right. And for the record, please use quotation marks to show actual quotes. I never said that and didn't mean to imply it either.
 
If Ludicolo is banned because of freaking Drizzle i may just bust a nut. Id rather just ban freaking Politoed, the all problems will be solved.
What, is Ludicolo holding you hostage or something?


How many pokemon must you people ban to preserve drizzle?, its ridiculous just get rid of Drizzle and then nobody needs to be banned.
Hey, let's just get rid of 100+ BP moves and NOTHING needs to be banned!



No offense to the suspect voters, but I respectfully say that I think those who voted to keep Drizzle were wrong. I am up for discussion, but back it up with more than voting results. Voting accurately shows what is popular, not what is always right.
In the end, beyond the politics and drama and all, Smogon is just a bunch of Pokemon fans that try to come up with a common set of rules to battle by. Ultimately, there's no reason for a group of fans to do anything BESIDES the most popular idea within that group.
 
Going to repeatedly point out that argument is horrendous again because banning Toed hurts SSers more, now you can't even give them double STAB on one of their weaker abilties, and you can still use Rain Dance + SS if you really want to.

You can't argue that the current system unfairly nerfs unbroken Pokemon, while stating that Drizzle is broken. You just can't. Drizzle can at least help these mons a little bit, but without it they're all completely worthless and banished to the depths of NU, etc.
If something can't do much under the eight/seven turns of extended Rain Dance, I don't think it would be able to do much more with the unlimited turns of Drizzle...

Also, for the sake of curiosity: have "oldschool" rain teams been used (with favorable results) ever since the Drizzle+SS ban? Obviously, including the notorious rain monsters. And if they have, are those teams unstoppable, or at least very hard to defeat?
 
In the end, beyond the politics and drama and all, Smogon is just a bunch of Pokemon fans that try to come up with a common set of rules to battle by. Ultimately, there's no reason for a group of fans to do anything BESIDES the most popular idea within that group.
Thank you for coming up with an argument without hostility. However, I don't agree with the most popular idea within THE group that did suspect voting. That's all.
 

jas61292

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That's not acting superior. It's stating an opinion with a dysphemism. Rain's dominance, the complaints about it, rise of counter-weathers, powering of steel types by halving fire type moves, automatically giving an extra stab, and breaking ssers so much a restraining order was ordered for it is what I based my argument off of. The evidence is obvious.

And for the record, please use quotation marks to show actual quotes. I never said that and didn't mean to imply it either.
Ok, fine, maybe what I said was a bit out of line. I'm more frustrated with people who just have no arguments at all. However, despite what your opinions are, I don't think saying something like"its obvious" contributes anything to a discussion over the very thing you are calling obvious. If it was really obvious there would be no discussion.

No offense to the suspect voters, but I respectfully say that I think those who voted to keep Drizzle were wrong. I am up for discussion, but back it up with more than voting results. Voting accurately shows what is popular, not what is always right.
In the end, beyond the politics and drama and all, Smogon is just a bunch of Pokemon fans that try to come up with a common set of rules to battle by. Ultimately, there's no reason for a group of fans to do anything BESIDES the most popular idea within that group.
Exactly, the opinion of the majority is what is best, or at least the best measure we have. It is really all opinion when it comes down to it, and so saying that what is popular is not what is right just isn't true.
 
Thank you for coming up with an argument without hostility. However, I don't agree with the most popular idea within THE group that did suspect voting. That's all.
Well, the whole reasoning behind the suspect voting group is that some people participate in the smogon "fan group" more than others, and thus would be more affected by any changes than people that drop in every once in a while.

Thus, the suspect system attempts to address this by giving the privilege to those with the highest ranking, who have spent the most time to gain the most experience to win the most matches.

Now, in reality, there's slight problems that are appearing that weren't foreseen at first, such as people "playing to ban" rather than just playing normally, but, as far as I'm aware, that's the general logic that the suspect system was built on.

Edit: Well, technically, there's also the fact that since the top rankers would also be most familiar with the metagame, and thus would be best fit to judge any problems, which is another reason why the system grants voting to the high-ranking.
 
Ok, fine, maybe what I said was a bit out of line. I'm more frustrated with people who just have no arguments at all. However, despite what your opinions are, I don't think saying something like"its obvious" contributes anything to a discussion over the very thing you are calling obvious. If it was really obvious there would be no discussion..
I understand your point but I see the recent ban on Drizzle and SS together is generating the discussion that between SS and Drizzle only one is broken and the other is not.

Exactly, the opinion of the majority is what is best. It is really all opinion when it comes down to it, and so saying that what is popular is not what is right just isn't true.
If the majority voted Arceus OU I'm pretty sure you wouldn't think it was right. And I said that what is popular isn't ALWAYS right. That is true and the difference of opinion of whether or not this is the case in this situation.
 
If the majority voted Arceus OU I'm pretty sure you wouldn't think it was right. And I said that what is popular isn't ALWAYS right. That is true and the difference of opinion is whether or not this is the case in this situation.
Hey, if most people on Smogon wants to play with Arceus, who's going to stop us?

Now, people from Serebii and other playerbases might just drop Smogon's rules altogether, but that's likely not that high among Smogon's concerns.
 

jas61292

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I understand your point but I see the recent ban on Drizzle and SS together is generating the discussion that between SS and Drizzle only one is broken and the other is not.
Personally, what my opinion has been throughout is that neither is broken, not that one is. Personally I am for banning individual Pokemon, and not anything else. I believe that would be the best and most fair way to do it. Its how we do everything else, why should this be any different. If Drizzle was broken, then we would ban it, but I am of the opinion that weather in and of itself cannot be broken.


If the majority voted Arceus OU I'm pretty sure you wouldn't think it was right. And I said that what is popular isn't ALWAYS right. That is true and the difference of opinion of whether or not this is the case in this situation.
I can agree on that, however, as I was trying to say, voting is the best measure we have of what is right.

And if people are voting Arceus OU, I think we have bigger problems than who is right or wrong.
 

Diana

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It's a little overkill to say what the majority wants is always right, isn't it? I can't say there have been any really terrible decisions so far but not every possible decision necessarily has to be right just because people like it.

Honestly I'm on the side wanting to get rid of Drizzle, and it's not just Swift Swimmers that are the problem. Get past those and you find Dragonite, Tornadus, Thundurus, Starmie, some of the Swift Swimmers with their alternate abilities (like Ludicolo), and even Ferrothorn to an extent. The reason I'd want Drizzle banned is because it makes all those Pokemon put together too much to handle without overspecializing for them, and banning Drizzle (or Politoed itself, if you'd rather not get into abilities), solves the problem much more nicely than banning every single possible Pokemon collectively pushed over with the ability. It's worth noting that it's the rain helping so many threats that's making it broken, not just one on its own. Just some thoughts.
 
I think the critical factor here, is we are dealing with multiple pokemon, Politoed with some pokemon setup, makes some pokemon broken. Politoed + Weather Abuser, isn't one pokemon, and you can't ban a pokemon for something alone it can't do, and Politoed itself isn't broken, you you can't ban it either. But, you can ban certain combinations, which are broken, similar to clauses, its like I said in the past, you can't compare the species clause with Mewtwo, they are 2 totally diferent subjects.

Now I can see the arguement of "Well X pokemon might be broken with Y support, so you could say that we could ban the combination of those 2 pokemon on a team." While this is certainly valid, I should note again, the scale of Politoed's influence, alone it can break 4 pokemon, and many more can be debated. So its a much bigger force then just X+Y pokemon, but more of like X+(Y1, Y2, Y3, ect). Which if you look at it, goes more along the line of a clause, not a ban, becuase of its such vast diference.

Now a clause, such as the moxie clause, has a wide impact over the whole metagame, without it every pokemon with moxie is broken. But the combination clause is a very diferent case, it only bans some pokemon broken combinations. And its not universal either, or else such a clause would be in effect in the Uber metagame, and it clearly isn't. Why? Becuase its not broken there, and thats the key point, it already has proven to be universally not broken, but only breaking many pokemon in the right standard, situation.

I would like to compare the Wobbuffet ban in 4th gen, to the combination ban, which I believe are 2 very similar situations. Wobuffet, with shadow tag and encore has the capability to break many pokemon with the support it gave, similar to Politoed. Now theoritically in 4th gen, we could of created a Wobbuffet complexity clause, which would have banned wobbuffet in combination with several pokemon which with it would have banned several pokemon/moves (swords dance or dragon dance) in combination with it. And of course we would have not have banned such combos in Uber, and if I had my way, would not have banned every pokemon with a boosting move/certain boosting pokemon in combination with it. But instead of all this mess, we decided to just ban Wobuffet. Whats the diference between them? A few big diferences actually, most of which deal with move tiering which I disagree with as opposed to ability tiering with Politoed, although that diference is debatable.

But the biggest diference is using Wobbuffet on a team, is not a playstyle, its a pokemon, one single pokemon. Using wob on a team isn't a team, but Politoed on a team is, we don't write articles on how to make a team with Garchomp, but we to write them about making a hail or sand one, why? They are big independant, parts of the metagame, which should be saved at all costs, while a single pokemon can be swept under the rug.
 

Diana

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I think this compares to the Support Clause we had in 4th gen though. Basically if a Pokemon caused many other Pokemon to become broken, the Pokemon causing it was the broken one. It seems like that's what we're dealing with here.
 
Personally, what my opinion has been throughout is that neither is broken, not that one is. Personally I am for banning individual Pokemon, and not anything else. I believe that would be the best and most fair way to do it. Its how we do everything else, why should this be any different. If Drizzle was broken, then we would ban it, but I am of the opinion that weather in and of its self cannot be broken.
For the most part, I agree with this. That's why I argued earlier that Politoed is broken due to Drizzle, like Wobb and shadow tag. I don't like the idea of banning weather but I wouldn't oppose banning Politoed because I don't see a how a pokemon who gives the offensive, defensive, and formerly speed, boosts just by switching in isn't uber.

And if people are voting Arceus OU, I think we have bigger problems than who is right or wrong.
Lol good point.
 

jas61292

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For the most part, I agree with this. That's why I argued earlier that Politoed is broken due to Drizzle, like Wobb and shadow tag. I don't like the idea of banning weather but I wouldn't oppose banning Politoed because I don't see a how a pokemon who gives the offensive, defensive, and formerly speed, boosts just by switching in isn't uber.
The only problem I have with that is that it can be said about every weather inducer. It is the Pokemon that like the weather that actually can make Rain more powerful than the others, and as such I think the broken users should be banned, not the inducer.

Edit: Actually I take that back, every weather inducer BUT Abomasnow. No speed boosts for hail.
 

Diana

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The only problem I have with that is that it can be said about every weather inducer. It is the Pokemon that like the weather that actually can make Rain more powerful than the others, and as such I think the broken users should be banned, not the inducer.
I would argue that if a Pokemon like Politoed is making multiple Pokemon broken just by being on the field for a short time that the Pokemon doing that is broken. It's possible to be broken without wiping the floor with everyhing in sight in blatantly obvious ways as well.
 
If you don't even understand the conditions of the bans, you need to [insert epic dis here]

In addition, you can't just say [insert weather here] is broken and needs to be banned without providing a solid argument and think people aren't going to shit on you for it. It hasn't been banned yet. So, how is it "obviously" broken? Because you think it is? Or because 'your team' gets shat on by it? If you could provide a valid argument, maybe you wouldn't be met with such criticism.
 
Overall, my views on this has to be:

1. Ability/Pokemon/Complex clauses are a no-no. These basically restrict pokemon and bypass Smogon's policy of banning, rather than restricting, pokemon that are too powerful for OU. It's essentially using a loophole to get past a carefully designed suspect system.

2. The idea of banning Drizzle because there are "too many" threats under rain is lazy, if anything. If there's a lot of suspects, then we do a lot of tests. Simple as that. Banning Drizzle restricts playstyles, rain offense and rain stall, for no reason besides how we don't want to go through a month or two of suspect testing.

3. Banning Swift Swim misses the point entirely. Case in point: Tornadus and Thunderus are both arguably overpowered rain threats that are missed entirely by a Swift Swim ban, while Huntail and other non-threats are unnecessarily banned.

4. Alderon's Proposal was fine for buying time, but it restricts pokemon unnecessarily, like the Swift Swim ban, and it opens the way for other time-consuming stuff like Sand Veil + SS bans (You guys didn't want to "waste" time testing individual threats just so you could test stuff like that?)

5. Banning individual pokemon grants the most flexibility to best fit bans to what is actually broken. Unlike a Drizzle ban, it doesn't hurt the non-broken rain stall at all. Unlike the SwSw ban/Aldaron's proposal, it leaves Huntail alone while allowing us to address actual threats like Thunderus.

6. Crying for Ludicolo just because it doesn't SEEM uber is ludicrous. What it, and other similar threats, were last gen is irrelevant.

7. Sub-optimal Kingdra is irrelevant. A weaker-than-possible set of a non-Drizzle abusing set is about as relevant as Specs Groudon for tiering.
 

jas61292

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I would argue that if a Pokemon like Politoed is making multiple Pokemon broken just by being on the field for a short time that the Pokemon doing that is broken. It's possible to be broken without wiping the floor with everything in sight in blatantly obvious ways as well.
It is definitely true that you don't need to do the damage yourself to be broken. Look at Deoxys-S. Weather it is actually broken is debatable, but it got a simple majority in the last vote, and that was certainly not for its offensive prowess.

However, in this case I do not believe Politoed fits that description. The main difference I see is that someone like Politoed can only create such a broken situation with specific Pokemon. Guys like Deoxys-S have the potential to do it on almost any team.
 

Diana

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It is definitely true that you don't need to do the damage yourself to be broken. Look at Deoxys-S. Weather it is actually broken is debatable, but it got a simple majority in the last vote, and that was certainly not for its offensive prowess.

However, in this case I do not believe Politoed fits that description. The main difference I see is that someone like Politoed can only create such a broken situation with specific Pokemon. Guys like Deoxys-S have the potential to do it on almost any team.
All right, I can see your point there. I do think the specific Pokemon are a high enough amount to qualify as broken, at least to me.

And I really can't see banning Politoed because "there are too many abusers" as lazy at all (though to quoted post didn't say that, I've seen it before). Smogon typically wants to ban as few things as possible as well, so banning one Pokemon causing things to be broken would be closer to policy than banning multiple Pokemon who are only there because of a certain threat.
 
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