np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

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The whole point of individual banning is that you can actually suspect test Tornadus and Starmie, y'know...

I don't get why people say individual bans would buff Drizzle if done properly.

Mid-level SwSw threats like Floatzel will return, while high-level non SwSw threats like Tornadus and Thunderous will likely get the boot after ACTUALLY BEING SUSPECT TESTED.

And last time I checked, removing the high-level threats while only adding mid-level threats is hardly a "buff".
You are of the opinion that the pokemon are what break Drizzle, as you find it manageable without them.

I am of the opinion that Drizzle is what makes the pokemon broken, as I find them manageable without it (and they were before Drizzle Politoed was released). Thus I would not vote to ban the genies or Starmie, I would vote to ban Drizzle.

All of the arguments presented, mine and yours, are rehashes of Round 2 and come down to the community's preference overall.

Absolutely. Many people would argue that Drizzle is the reason for the prevalence of the other weathers. Also, you have the added bonus of anti-weather Pokemon being viable. Finally, so many rain Pokemon (like your example, Toxicroak) aren't really viable outside of Drizzle, so Drizzle being legal adds those mons to the mix.
Yes, other weathers can be used to check Drizzle, and they are. They do, however, have their own draws and can be quite powerful if Drizzle weren't around. Look at Little Cup, for example. There is no Drizzle in that metagame, but Drought still gets used of its own merit alone. Different metagame, yes, but the principle is the same. I doubt people would stop using Sand or Sun just because they don't need to check Drizzle anymore.

And yeah those pokemon aren't viable outside of a Drizzle metagame. But there are also pokemon that aren't used solely because they can't survive in a weather based metagame. Usage will fluctuate with all changes, naturally, so saying that cutting Drizzle will reduce diversity without taking into account the rise of pokemon who benefit from the lack of permanent rain is completely disregarding the other half of the argument.

Icyman you've been deluded for too long that people are "protecting" Drizzle from being banned as if everyone agrees it's broken. Problem is, it's not broken.
Stealth Rock is beneficial in essentially all cases, though it affects different groups of pokemon in different ways, diluting the effect. Drizzle has a much more concentrated effect on a smaller group of pokemon, yes, but those pokemon become extremely potent when they would otherwise not be, and I believe that is why Drizzle needs to go.

Again, there are those who will say that Drizzle is not broken without the pokemon, and there are those who will say the pokemon are not broken without Drizzle. It all comes down to preference, IMO.
 

UltiMario

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Politoed + 2 sweepers + 1 steel + 1 anti-weather + 1 wildcard.
Ninetales + Venusuar + 2 Sun Sweepers + 1 Spinner + 1 wildcard.
Tyranitar/Hippowdon + Excadrill + Gliscor/Garchomp + Ferrothorn + Latios + 1wildcard.
This is a reaaaallllyyyy bad stereotype. A lot of teams don't really look like this. Especially Sand. Rain and Sun tend to follow at least 3 of those mons, but Sand is actually a really diverse team type.

Hell, my Sand Team is TTar/Latios/Landorus/Scizor/Vappy/Conkeldurr. That looks nothing like your Stereotype >.<

I run Rain too, but admittedly, 5/6 mons fit that bill. (I have no steel, lol. YES I CAN STILL BEAT DRAGONS THANK YOU)

Also is it me or after recent RMTs, is Hail starting to pick up again? ._.
 

jas61292

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Whining aside, it would be adding significant buffs to the most powerful weather as is.
First and foremost, people keep saying that Rain is the most powerful. I do agree that it would be if we let Swift Swimmers back in, but as of now I am not convinced. Rain to me is no more of a problem than Sand.

As for the banning of Drizzle leading to the decreased use of certain abusers...so what? You'll still see the better threats used (I've mentioned them before). I personally don't care if Parasect and Toxicroak only make an appearance once every 100 matches instead of once every 10 matches. Nobody seemed to care that they were not OU last gen, so why must they be OU this gen? Where is the memo that I missed? Besides, other pokemon may start seeing the light of day if Drizzle ends up getting banned.
True, but this argument can be use right back at you. I don't care who is in the matches. So what makes anyone else more important that Toxicroak and Parasect? Nothing. You put them out there as examples of Pokemon that we might lose out on, and then say "who cares?" No one. Just as no one care who we might lose out on by keeping rain. Either way some guys will get less use. As I have said before, who are we to decide who should be used? Our job is to decide who is good, not who should be.


Finally, people keep pretending that this metagame is "diverse." That we have more "choices" because Drizzle is still allowed.

Where are they? I'm seeing the same team archetypes over and over.

Politoed + 2 sweepers + 1 steel + 1 anti-weather + 1 wildcard.
Ninetales + Venusuar + 2 Sun Sweepers + 1 Spinner + 1 wildcard.
Tyranitar/Hippowdon + Excadrill + Gliscor/Garchomp + Ferrothorn + Latios + 1wildcard.

In my opinion (which is all these suspect tests really are, honestly), Drizzle is actually reducing what you can viably run this metagame. You either run one of the other two weathers to check it, or you run Drizzle itself and use the same top-tier pokemon as everyone else, because you'll find yourself at a disadvantage if you use "creative" stuff against Tornadus and Starmie. It needs to go.
I think a major point you are missing is that not all weather teams are the same. I run Sand and I only have 2 of the Pokemon on your sand team list. Just because weather is used does not mean we can lump all weather together and say it is all the same. Just like not all non weather strategies are the not the same, neither are those with weather. Diversity is about much more than "do you run rain."
 
1) The metagame doesn't stabilize. Pokemon is inherently imbalanced; the moment a new threat rises, it gives the community the justification to nominate that threat rather than adapt to it. If that threat is banned, the metagame shifts yet again.

2) It eliminates a degree of player skill. Players who adapt win, players who don't lose. When you eliminate the need to adapt to dominate tactics, you eliminate a competitive layer required by players to play the game.

3) It sets precedent, and if it gets out of hand, leads the rules to be more complex than they need to be. Concise rules are the most efficient, and the most well respected.
Yes, yes, the rules, players, community mentality etc. change. What's the detrimental effect on the metagame ITSELF, that is, how does it negatively affect what we're given to play with?





Do you even know why Aldaron's proposal was considered in the first place? Because if an alternative to the metagame at the time wasn't given, a landslide of bans along with Drizzle might have ensued. Yes, Thunderous, Tornadus, Kingdra, et cetera could all be nominated. But how exactly would we know what would be sufficient to nominate to alleviate the stress rain is producing? Odds are we'd wind up back where we started before the proposal was being suggested.
Kingdra, Ludicolo, Kabutops, 2 genies, Gorebyss. Oh dear, I need more than 1 hand to count them all. What a landslide.

How would we know if that's not enough? I believe there's this nifty system called suspect testing that's designed to see what's actually broken, can you believe it?





I'm glad we have a psychic in the thread. It adds nicely to the rest of the flavor.
Well, I certainly don't see any objections against my "psychic" projections, do I?

Edit:
You are of the opinion that the pokemon are what break Drizzle, as you find it manageable without them.

I am of the opinion that Drizzle is what makes the pokemon broken, as I find them manageable without it (and they were before Drizzle Politoed was released). Thus I would not vote to ban the genies or Starmie, I would vote to ban Drizzle.
Yes, yes, we have different opinions. Did we spend all of round 2 arguing about them? Yes.

How much progress are we to get on the subject if we continue arguing? Perhaps a little.

How much progress are we to get on the subject if we just "agree to disagree"? None, guaranteed.

Now, if you think we're better off taking the time to discuss Sand Veil + SS instead, then you'd have a point, but I'm going to have to disagree with that as well.
 
Like it or not, you have effectively banned pokemon from the metagame that are not broken, yes you can use other abilties, or not use politoed at all, but you have infact banned the combination of of swiftswim and drizzle on all pokemon. I honestly still don't see why we still haven't allowed a magority of pokemon to use it, I guess its a victimless crime that no one really cries about.

It should be noted that far less pokemon have speed boost then swimswim. Infact the ratio of broken pokemon with speed boost to the total pokemon with speed boost (1 to 8), while with swift swim (about 4 to 38 or 1 to 9.5). And that same can be said for Yanma, who the hell cares about that? So under the logic of simplicity, we should of banned speed boost when Blaziken was broken. You don't group pokemon together like that, and ban them all, when only a few are actually broken.
Because that's actually 1 certain broken to 8 certainly non-brokens, versus 4 certain brokens to 38 mons-some of which might be broken but outclassed, some of which probably aren't broken. Ban Gorebyss, you have Huntail (unless it doesn't get BP, in which case I am bullshit). Ban Kabutops, you have Omastar. That already takes matters to 6(or five)/38 potentially broken mons-which is over a 1 to 8 ratio.

Whereas Speed Boost is clearly only broken on Blaziken, we didn't know where the line between "good swift swim mons" and "broken swift swim mons" was.
 
Because that's actually 1 certain broken to 8 certainly non-brokens, versus 4 certain brokens to 38 mons-some of which might be broken but outclassed, some of which probably aren't broken. Ban Gorebyss, you have Huntail (unless it doesn't get BP, in which case I am bullshit). Ban Kabutops, you have Omastar. That already takes matters to 6(or five)/38 potentially broken mons-which is over a 1 to 8 ratio.

Whereas Speed Boost is clearly only broken on Blaziken, we didn't know where the line between "good swift swim mons" and "broken swift swim mons" was.
Ah, yes, if ONLY there was some way to find a line between broken pokemon and good pokemon. If ONLY there was some process that was already set up that would allow us to easily go through the pokemon and see. If only, if only, there was such a system.


Owait-
 
Yes, yes, the rules, players, community mentality etc. change. What's the detrimental effect on the metagame ITSELF, that is, how does it negatively affect what we're given to play with?
I'm done playing semantical fetch. Where are you going with this. I have better things to do.


Kingdra, Ludicolo, Kabutops, 2 genies, Gorebyss. Oh dear, I need more than 1 hand to count them all. What a landslide.
When you consider bans are supposed to be a last resort, yeah that's kind of extreme. I don't even know how you're able to act so careless when the most Pokemon we've ever sent to Ubers in a single generation before is three that were previously OU, at most.

How would we know if that's not enough? I believe there's this nifty system called suspect testing that's designed to see what's actually broken, can you believe it?
You're missing the point.
 
I'm done playing semantical fetch. Where are you going with this. I have better things to do.
Oh, if you agree that it doesn't affect the pool of pokemon available, then w/e.



When you consider bans are supposed to be a last resort, yeah that's kind of extreme. I don't even know how you're able to act so careless when the most Pokemon we've ever sent to Ubers in a single generation before is three that were previously OU, at most.
How many abilities did we send to Ubers in a single generation before? How many complex bans did we institute in a single generation before?



You're missing the point.
Ah, the point where I'm not actually psychic, and that something might actually go differently from how I stated?

No, I'm pretty sure I got that point. As I said, if no one objects to my "projection", I'm totally fine.
 

jas61292

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You're missing the point.
No, I think you are. You act as if limiting bans is the goal. It is not. The goal is to create the best possible metagame while banning as few things as possible. If we can do that with no bans, great. But we should not avoid them just for the sake of avoiding them. And if 5, hell even 10 bans, are what it takes to have the best metagame, then that's what we should do.
 
This is a reaaaallllyyyy bad stereotype. A lot of teams don't really look like this. Especially Sand. Rain and Sun tend to follow at least 3 of those mons, but Sand is actually a really diverse team type.

Hell, my Sand Team is TTar/Latios/Landorus/Scizor/Vappy/Conkeldurr. That looks nothing like your Stereotype >.<

I run Rain too, but admittedly, 5/6 mons fit that bill. (I have no steel, lol. YES I CAN STILL BEAT DRAGONS THANK YOU)

Also is it me or after recent RMTs, is Hail starting to pick up again? ._.
Regarding your sand, you have a Sand Starter, Latios, a sand sweeper, an Excadrill check, and 2 wildcards. Not all sand teams are the same, and I'll admit it is a stereotype, but the first three are on every sand team I see, honestly. You covered rain yourself.

First and foremost, people keep saying that Rain is the most powerful. I do agree that it would be if we let Swift Swimmers back in, but as of now I am not convinced. Rain to me is no more of a problem than Sand.
The number of pokemon capable of abusing rain effectively is larger than that of Sand and Sun, which is why I am convinced it is the strongest. The pokemon that receive the STAB boost also have a better offensive STAB.

True, but this argument can be use right back at you. I don't care who is in the matches. So what makes anyone else more important that Toxicroak and Parasect? Nothing. You put them out there as examples of Pokemon that we might lose out on, and then say "who cares?" No one. Just as no one care who we might lose out on by keeping rain. Either way some guys will get less use. As I have said before, who are we to decide who should be used? Our job is to decide who is good, not who should be.
And be deciding who is good, we can decide what is "too good." We've known since the beginning of Gen 5 that suspect tests are really the community deciding what metagame they prefer. I prefer one without Drizzle.

Yes, yes, we have different opinions. Did we spend all of round 2 arguing about them? Yes.

How much progress are we to get on the subject if we continue arguing? Perhaps a little.

How much progress are we to get on the subject if we just "agree to disagree"? None, guaranteed.

Now, if you think we're better off taking the time to discuss Sand Veil + SS instead, then you'd have a point, but I'm going to have to disagree with that as well.
I don't think we will make much progress, actually. Call it what you want, but I really doubt that either side will change their mind now that we have had several rounds to play and form our opinions, so it will come down to the votes, as usual.

Sand Veil + Sandstream? I don't care either way, because I don't find Sand Veil broken. I'd vote against the ban because of that fact, but I wouldn't be particularly devastated if it went through. It would just mean I wouldn't have to worry about something I didn't worry about to begin with.
 

alexwolf

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Where are they? I'm seeing the same team archetypes over and over.

Politoed + 2 sweepers + 1 steel + 1 anti-weather + 1 wildcard.
Ninetales + Venusuar + 2 Sun Sweepers + 1 Spinner + 1 wildcard.
Tyranitar/Hippowdon + Excadrill + Gliscor/Garchomp + Ferrothorn + Latios + 1wildcard.
it's funny how you say that you see the same archetype when in the formats that you present half of the factors(or more) are highly variable.

so yes the rain format as you present it offers very small variety to the metagame 'cause politoed(1 poke),2 rain sweepers(10 pokes at least),1 steel(5 pokes at least),1 anti weather(5 pokes at least) and 1 wildcard(lol 50 pokes at least, meaning the whole ou) offer a very small combination of usable teams...yes you are true if you do the maths with your conditions more than 1000 different teams come out...
and out of all the things you mention only politoed is the must use poke!it is funny that you even mention the steel type as if it was the standart only for rain teams...i thought that since the beginning of 4th gen everyone was forced to carry at least 1 steel type...

also as another poster have said your format about sand is so messed up..rly!

so to sum it up out of the 3 team stereotypes that you have posted the first one doesn't really say something except from the fact that you must actully use politoed to get advantage of rain,the second says something useful(like the fact that you must carry a spinner and that venusaur will almost always be there)but is still too generic to prove lack of variety and the last one is just completely false and untrue...

Sand Veil + Sandstream? I don't care either way, because I don't find Sand Veil broken. I'd vote against the ban because of that fact, but I wouldn't be particularly devastated if it went through. It would just mean I wouldn't have to worry about something I didn't worry about to begin with.
again the problem with sand veil is not brokeness but uncompetitiveness!!!we don't want to get rid of it because it makes any pokemon broken but because it creates uncompetitive circumstances.
 
Alright, mental note, ignoring XienZo's posts going forward.

jas61292, that's all fine and dandy. Except you can't tell me what the best possible metagame is in the first place. So yeah.
 

jas61292

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Alright, mental note, ignoring XienZo's posts going forward.

jas61292, that's all fine and dandy. Except you can't tell me what the best possible metagame is in the first place. So yeah.
Your right. I can't. Unlike some people, I am definitely not psychic. But on the same note, you can't tell me that not doing the bans will result in any better of a metagame. So, what should we do? We should test things. That's what the system is there for. If something is broken, ban it. I don't care how many bans we do. Just because we have banned a lot of things should we not ban something else that is broken, just to keep our ban quota down?
 

TheValkyries

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Alright, mental note, ignoring XienZo's posts going forward.

jas61292, that's all fine and dandy. Except you can't tell me what the best possible metagame is in the first place. So yeah.
You assume there are more broken threats beyond the big three under Drizzle.

That's a pretty gigantic assumption, considering those things have never seriously been used on a Drizzle team to date, so there is no possible way you can know that we'd be banning more than two maybe three Pokemon.
 
it's funny how you say that you see the same archetype when in the formats that you present half of the factors(or more) are highly variable.

so yes the rain format as you present it offers very small variety to the metagame 'cause politoed(1 poke),2 rain sweepers(10 pokes at least),1 steel(5 pokes at least),1 anti weather(5 pokes at least) and 1 wildcard(lol 50 pokes at least, meaning the whole ou) offer a very small combination of usable teams...yes you are true if you do the maths with your conditions more than 1000 different teams come out...
and out of all the things you mention only politoed is the must use poke!it is funny that you even mention the steel type as if it was the standart only for rain teams...i thought that since the beginning of 4th gen everyone was forced to carry at least 1 steel type...

also as another poster have said your format about sand is so messed up..rly!

so to sum it up out of the 3 team stereotypes that you have posted the first one doesn't really say something except from the fact that you must actully use politoed to get advantage of rain,the second says something useful(like the fact that you must carry a spinner and that venusaur will almost always be there)but is still too generic to prove lack of variety and the last one is just completely false and untrue...
Okay then, let me paint the picture a little clearer for you.

Rain will naturally have politoed. Of all the steels in OU, the most common I see on rain are Jirachi, Ferrothorn, and Scizor. Rain sweepers? Why would I bother using Toxicroak or something else when I can just use the best there is? Tornadus or Thundurus / Starmie it is. Rain's most commonly used anti-weathers, in my experience, are Azumarill and Virizion (lately I've seen Azumarill more, but that's just me). Then we've got a wildcard, so all of OU, you're right there.

Those 8 pokemon make up the large majority of rain teams I've seen. Yeah there are other choices like SubPetaya Empoleon or Toxicroak, but they are less common for the simple fact that they are less consistently successful than the top contenders (I've never really been a fan of Toxicroak honestly, I find that it doesn't really do anything when used against me. Maybe its because I usually have Gliscor on my teams).

Sun.

Ninetales is obvious, and so is Venusaur. There is usually a fire-type that isn't weak to either of ground or rock to take advantage of the sun (Volcarona, Heatran, Infernape, Darmanitan). Secondary chlorosweepers typically are Sawsbuck or Tangrowth in my experience. Gliscor or something similar helps check sand, and there's the rapid spinner for Volcarona or Darmanitan. Sun is even less varied than rain in my experience.

Sand.

I've already admitted that I exaggerated for this one, but that doesn't mean that Latios/Sand Starter/Sand Sweeper don't make up half the sand teams I see (as they should). The fourth slot usually goes to an Excadrill check, which is most often Gliscor, RotomW, or Conkeldurr.

Maybe its just that I consider variety to be a bit more than what I've stated.
 
Sand Veil + Sandstream? I don't care either way, because I don't find Sand Veil broken. I'd vote against the ban because of that fact, but I wouldn't be particularly devastated if it went through. It would just mean I wouldn't have to worry about something I didn't worry about to begin with.
My point is that precisely; Sand Veil + Sandstorm, being one of the most pervasive topics out there, isn't all that significant at all.

So basically, we can beat a dead horse, or we can go swat flies. IMO, at least with the Drizzle issue, we might get to something of consequence, unlikely as it may be, while with stuff like SV + SS, I don't think it'd be that significant no matter how long we did discuss it.

Edit: And again, I want to reiterate that individual bans would fix the Tornadus/Starmie overuse without hurting the things that aren't especially overused.
 

alexwolf

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Okay then, let me paint the picture a little clearer for you. Rain will naturally have politoed. Of all the steels in OU, the most common I see on rain are Jirachi, Ferrothorn, and Scizor. Rain sweepers? Why would I bother using Toxicroak or something else when I can just use the best there is? Tornadus / Thundurus / Starmie it is. Rain's most commonly used anti-weathers, in my experience, are Azumarill and Virizion (lately I've seen Azumarill more, but that's just me). Then we've got a wildcard, so all of OU, you're right there.

Those 8 pokemon make up the large majority of rain teams I've seen. Yeah there are other choices like SubPetaya Empoleon or Toxicroak, but they are less common for the simple fact that they are less consistently successful than the top contenders (I've never really been a fan of Toxicroak honestly, I find that it doesn't really do anything when used against me).

Sun.

Ninetales is obvious, and so is Venusaur. There is usually a fire-type to take advantage of the sun (Volcarona, Heatran, Infernape, Darmanitan). Secondary chlorosweepers typically are Sawsbuck or Tangrowth in my experience. Gliscor or something similar helps check sand, and there's the rapid spinner for Volcarona or Darmanitan. Sun is even less varied than rain in my experience.

Sand.

I've already admitted that I exaggerated for this one, but that doesn't mean that Latios/Sand Starter/Sand Sweeper don't make up half the sand teams I see (as they should). The fourth slot usually goes to an Excadrill check, which is most often Gliscor, RotomW, or Conkeldurr.

Maybe its just that I consider variety to be a bit more than what I've stated.
man i know that you have the idea of what are you posting but what i am saying is try to express better what you want to say...
i know that when you say 2 rain sweepers you mainly mean tornadus and thundurus and even starmie but not everyone knows it 'cause either they don't know the metagame well or they don't know you well.i respect your opinion but i am just telling you to present it more carefully so everyone can understand you that's all...
and i know that with weather wars the team posibbilities are not so much but i just wanted to show you that with the way that you presented the team archetypes it seemed like there were so many possibilities while in reality there aren't...
 

DetroitLolcat

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It seems all we should do is give Rain a proper re-test. We should nominate Aldaron's Proposal for repealing in the next Suspect Test, and replace it with a Drizzle nomination or a Pokemon + Drizzle ban.

The goal of the suspect test is not to find some ideal metagame where Magikarp is nerfed for sharing soem characteristic with a broken pokemon, it's to get the broken crap out. I think it might take a PR thread that would amend Smogon's banning policy, but I think we need strict guidelines on complex bans, as Aldaron's Proposal was the lazy way out.

If Rain can still be manageable in a game with a buff, then it should be allowed to be played to its fullest extent. If Rain needs a nerf or ban, then we nerf/ban it. Let's just take the time to do it right instead of fast.

Blanket bans=/=good. Individual bans=good.
 

Meru

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Rain is contending with the other weathers just fine without Swift Swim.

Why are you people trying to give me migraines? Rain doesn't need MORE powerful sweepers.
 
You're missing the point; you have to understand the REASONING behind the smogon policy to get it:

The idea goes:

Less bans => less restrictions => more choices => better metagame

thus

More bans => more restrictions => less choices => worse metagame

However, if you "ban" politoed, you have:

Ban Politoed => Ban Drizzle => Cut viability of rain abusers
----------------------------------------|
----------------------------------------V

More bans => more restrictions => less choices => worse metagame

Sure, it doesn't create "more bans", but in the end, it does the same thing as more bans would, and in the end, is just as detrimental.

Edit: Also, I'd like to point out that this is obviously a simplified version of the policy and doesn't reflect every single detail of the policy, but it captures the gist of what I was getting at.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that make Rain a complete Catch-22 if you look at it from that perspective?

You can't have Politoed AND everything Drizzle makes too powerful, but if you ban the abusers you will send a good 5 to god knows how many pokemon to Ubers on the basis that they're too damn strong in rain, and if you ban Politoed, then it's still bad because it nerfs all that stuff.

What exactly are you supposed to do, then?
 
You're missing the point; you have to understand the REASONING behind the smogon policy to get it:

The idea goes:

Less bans => less restrictions => more choices => better metagame

thus

More bans => more restrictions => less choices => worse metagame

However, if you "ban" politoed, you have:

Ban Politoed => Ban Drizzle => Cut viability of rain abusers
----------------------------------------|
----------------------------------------V

More bans => more restrictions => less choices => worse metagame

Sure, it doesn't create "more bans", but in the end, it does the same thing as more bans would, and in the end, is just as detrimental.

Edit: Also, I'd like to point out that this is obviously a simplified version of the policy and doesn't reflect every single detail of the policy, but it captures the gist of what I was getting at.

So, according to this theory, having the Ubers in the metagame creates more options?

Don't delude yourself.

The existance of Rain, Sun and Sand in the metagame makes there only be four viable team types, all with little variation between versions. Banning auto-weather would make MORE strategies be viable, not less.

These four strategies, by the way, are Rain, Sun, Sand, and Anti-Weather Stall [Stall with mons purely to block weather teams]

Normal teams are just outclassed. Why use a Bulky Offense team when you can just outright sweep with Rain? Why use Balance when you can use Sand/Sun? Why use traditional stall, when the insane power of V-Generate Victini, Excadrill and [NP] Thunderus can smash it to peices?

Bans can allow more options to be viable, which, according to your flowchart, creates a better metagame.
 
You've both got it wrong (Raikaria more, however), and once again, I redirect to the PR forums. The idea is to not ban anything unless it is utterly outclassing everything else, which defines itself by the following rule of thumb:

When something is so powerful there is no reason to use anything else, and teams more or less only consist of the specified Pokémon and its counters anymore, then it is broken and must be banned.

Unless this happens, no bans. Ever.
 
You've both got it wrong (Raikaria more, however), and once again, I redirect to the PR forums. The idea is to not ban anything unless it is utterly outclassing everything else, which defines itself by the following rule of thumb:

When something is so powerful there is no reason to use anything else, and teams more or less only consist of the specified Pokémon and its counters anymore, then it is broken and must be banned.

Unless this happens, no bans. Ever.
Wobuffett says hi in Gen 4 and Gen 3.

Also, this is the current situation. I'd say about 80% of teams are running a form of weather, which, guess what, counters other weathers. Almost every Sun Team is a clone of the next. Same for Sand. Not as much for Rain, but the basics are there.

The remaining 20% are running anti-weather stall, or attempting to use offense without weather, and failing rather miserably, unless they are abuseing things like Deo-S Duel Screens to Shell Smash Goyrebass.

Which is a broken tactic in it's own right. After all, Deo-S is an automatic suspect this round due to a majority.
 

ginganinja

It's all coming back to me now
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You've both got it wrong (Raikaria more, however), and once again, I redirect to the PR forums. The idea is to not ban anything unless it is utterly outclassing everything else, which defines itself by the following rule of thumb:

When something is so powerful there is no reason to use anything else, and teams more or less only consist of the specified Pokémon and its counters anymore, then it is broken and must be banned.

Unless this happens, no bans. Ever.

Wait what?

Ferrothorn is used on about 23% of teams (according to the stats) with Tyrantiar the next highest used. So, seeing as many teams carry Ferrothorn, according to the bolded part of your post does this mean that you are seriously suggesting banning Ferrothorn which seems to fulfill the above criteria
 
Wait what?

Ferrothorn is used on about 23% of teams (according to the stats) with Tyrantiar the next highest used. So, seeing as many teams carry Ferrothorn, according to the bolded part of your post does this mean that you are seriously suggesting banning Ferrothorn which seems to fulfill the above criteria
I don't run it because I don't need it. 'nuff said.

Wobuffett says hi in Gen 4 and Gen 3.

Also, this is the current situation. I'd say about 80% of teams are running a form of weather, which, guess what, counters other weathers. Almost every Sun Team is a clone of the next. Same for Sand. Not as much for Rain, but the basics are there.

The remaining 20% are running anti-weather stall, or attempting to use offense without weather, and failing rather miserably, unless they are abuseing things like Deo-S Duel Screens to Shell Smash Goyrebass.

Which is a broken tactic in it's own right.
"Weather" is not a single entity. There are four weather effects, each of which have multiple ways of using, and I say using because adding the "ab-" before it gives it bad stigma already.

Also non-weather offense is perfectly capable of smacking weather teams, because a Tyranitar on board is always a good thing, and guess what? Sand Stream! You don't even need to carry TTar, hell, apparently some people have achieved great success with a weather move somewhere. You don't have to use it, you just have to be prepared to stop the opponents weather nowadays because it's the play style of choice. In Gen IV that was direct LO offense. Now we have weather-assisted offense instead of just defense.

Oh, and by the way:
Goyrebass
<<<DUNCE
 
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