np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

[Nkululeko]

Brightpowder and Sand Veil introduce a completely different kind of luck : one that can't be avoided and introduce literally no "risk vs reward" choice. Sand Veil's boost comes with absolutely no downside, and there is literally no skill in dealing with it, because you can't : you just hope whatever you do won't miss and if it does, then you lose, assuming an even match-up. Still, even though Sand Veil and Brightpowder are of the same kind, the useless and never-seen one is banned, for the sake of it, while Sand Veil is being abused everywhere because we don't want to get rid of Garchomp.

Brightpowder is banned because it was deemed broken and believed to have had no viable counters (Hone Claws, Lock-On, Theif, and Trick are the only ones I can name of the top of my head). I don't see the same happening for Sand Veil/Snow Cloak b/c of the fact that Sand Veil's hax are a probability resulting from a slight risk vs nice reward choice under optimal conditions. The prescence of Sand is required for Sand Veil to work, brightpowder works as long as it's equipped, which is essentially automatic. Sand Veil's boosts come with the downside of requiring Sand to be running in a meta where almost 40% of all teams at one point were running weather, idk how many ran anti-weather so I'm not mentioning it. With that evidence it is clearly a lie to claim that Sand Veil carries "absolutely no downside, and there is literallly no skill in dealing with it" opposing weather starters/cancellers can turn off sand by switching in, making Sand Veil inactive unless you bring back ttar of the hippo(the resulting strategies to work around this force one to use a degree of skill. BTW, you have to hope that all moves with under 100/95 hit b/c that can cost you the game as well. Why do I bring those up, because like weather dependent abilities that raise evasion, speed, strength, etc. are CAN be dealt with if one uses skill. People like myself, who think that Sand Veil/Snow Cloak shouldn't be banned, are saying so b/c we don't think it's broken or as guarranteed as Brightpowder, since barring the "occasional" Trick or thief(so rarely used I don't know why it's even in the code) it was gonna happen, NOT TO SAVE GARCHOMP.


Finally, if you want to ban Garchomp then nominate it and state your reasons for doing so, feel free to name Sand Veil as something GARCHOMP can abuse because the lack of counters to Sand Veil GARCHOMP and the overpowered aspects to GARCHOMP rather than trying to ban it's only ability at the moment because my inner conspiracy theorist is acting up and that's what some of the ban Sand Veil areguements are starting to look like.

 

[Yoshiken]

Sand Veil's boost comes with absolutely no downside, and there is literally no skill in dealing with it, because you can't : you just hope whatever you do won't miss and if it does, then you lose, assuming an even match-up.

The risk is that weather is required, that in itself is a pretty big downside. Bring in ScarfToed on the SD and hit with Blizz/Ice Beam? It might take two Pokemon to do it, maybe, but, say, Whimsicott to come in on SD, Encore and then Sunny Day before switching to an Ice-type.
The only reason Sand Veil seemingly comes with no penalty is because a good number of people run Tyranitar (and a fair few have Hippowdon too)
*unintentionally fuels another weather debate?*

 

[alphatron]

Brightpowder is banned because it was deemed broken and believed to have had no viable counters (Hone Claws, Lock-On, Theif, and Trick are the only ones I can name of the top of my head).

Really? I never saw any arguments supporting this at all in the last topic and I (shamefully) made most of my posts in the third suspect thread. They weren't banned for being broken or having no counters at all. They were banned as an extension of the evasion clause.

I don't see the same happening for Sand Veil/Snow Cloak b/c of the fact that Sand Veil's hax are a probability resulting from a slight risk vs nice reward choice under optimal conditions. The prescence of Sand is required for Sand Veil to work, brightpowder works as long as it's equipped, which is essentially automatic.

I cannot agree with this. At all. Sand Veil's risk comes at what exactly? Having to use tyranitar? An excellent special wall with numerous offensive and supportive sets? The #2 most used pokemon in the metagame right now? Simply slapping a tyranitar on your team does more good than bad. There is no risk to sand veil at all. If anything, sand veil is the bonus awarded to players for using two good pokemon: Garchomp and Tyranitar.

Yes, garchomp. Because the sand veil arguement would NOT EXIST if it wasn't for garchomp. I have seen no logs or posts going into detail because the match was lost thanks to an attack missing mamoswine, glaceon, etc. I'm not even sure why brightpowder was brought up in the last thread. And I'll have to disagree with your other point as well. There IS a downside to using brightpowder on a pokemon. Instead of holding a toxic orb, my poison heal gliscor/breloom is holding this so that attacks miss 1/10th of the time? Instead of leftovers, my blissey is holding this? Instead of a life orb for higher damage output, or a yache berry for protection against what would normally counter you, my garchomp is holding this? Really? Nine times out of ten, it does nothing! And it's supposed to be better than simply using tyranitar and an already amazing pokemon on the same team?

Sand Veil's boosts come with the downside of requiring Sand to be running in a meta where almost 40% of all teams at one point were running weather, idk how many ran anti-weather so I'm not mentioning it. With that evidence it is clearly a lie to claim that Sand Veil carries "absolutely no downside, and there is literallly no skill in dealing with it" opposing weather starters/cancellers can turn off sand by switching in, making Sand Veil inactive unless you bring back ttar of the hippo(the resulting strategies to work around this force one to use a degree of skill.

You're saying that sand veil's downside is running sand in a metagame where 40% of the teams are weather teams. The problem here is that 21% of those teams (the majority) ARE sand! 10% of the teams are rain. I don't even remember what Ninetales' statistics are. And the opposing weather starters can switch in and disable sand veil? Ninetales cannot switch into Garchomp (again, I'm only mentioning him, as there is no arguement without him) at all. Politoed can't either, and loses to Yachechomp even if it manages to live through a hit. Altaria? Ha! LickyLicky? Ha! Abomasnow? He can switch into Earthquake I suppose...

BTW, you have to hope that all moves with under 100/95 hit b/c that can cost you the game as well.

It is the choice of the player to use a move with accuracy less than 100%. I do not get any say in weather or not my opponent will simply carry garchomp and tyranitar on the same team.

Finally, if you want to ban Garchomp then nominate it and state your reasons for doing so, feel free to name Sand Veil as something GARCHOMP can abuse because the lack of counters to Sand Veil GARCHOMP and the overpowered aspects to GARCHOMP rather than trying to ban it's only ability at the moment because my inner conspiracy theorist is acting up and that's what some of the ban Sand Veil areguements are starting to look like.

I agree with this honestly. I do not agree with the notion of banning sand veil or snow cloak. The pokemon who have these abilities are not threatening enough to win entire games all on their own just when one attack misses. You do not need to carry two checks to something like Glaceon, because it will probably be countered just by building a team. Garchomp is a pokemon who requires specific counters, and when your specific counter loses to chomp because of sand veil, it can be upsetting. The idea of carrying more than one chomp check or counter is a bit silly because the arguement for doing so stems from not only accounting for the sand veil miss, but failing to check other dangerous pokemon in the metagame simply because you're that scared of your reliable garchomp counter not being so reliable.

All that being said, I still don't see a reason to ban garchomp. Even if sand veil is a tad problematic on him. No Sandstream + sand veil doesn't work because it means sand teams are denied from using good pokemon. Unlike swift swim + rain dance, garchomp is good outside of sand. Any arguements about sand veil should just concern garchomp's use of it, not the ability as a whole.

There are no sand veil users in OU right now aside from him and gliscor. Gliscor doesn't use this ability at all. So garchomp is quite literally the only relevant case to this topic.

 

[Glen ^^]

Sand Veil's boost comes with absolutely no downside, and there is literally no skill in dealing with it, because you can't : you just hope whatever you do won't miss and if it does, then you lose, assuming an even match-up.

Just like dealing with any decent sweeper?

"Hope that Excadrill doesn't flinch you, if it does, you lose"
"Hope that Kyurem's Ice Beam doesn't freeze you, if it does, you lose"
"Hope that Chandelure's Fire Blast doesn't burn your TTar, if it does, you lose".

He really isn't that much luck based as people make it sound. Just pay attention to any hax you may have suffered prior to your loss and you may realize Garchomp was far from the main player in it.

 

[alexwolf]

Brightpowder is banned because it was deemed broken and believed to have had no viable counters (Hone Claws, Lock-On, Theif, and Trick are the only ones I can name of the top of my head). I don't see the same happening for Sand Veil/Snow Cloak b/c of the fact that Sand Veil's hax are a probability resulting from a slight risk vs nice reward choice under optimal conditions. The prescence of Sand is required for Sand Veil to work, brightpowder works as long as it's equipped, which is essentially automatic. Sand Veil's boosts come with the downside of requiring Sand to be running in a meta where almost 40% of all teams at one point were running weather, idk how many ran anti-weather so I'm not mentioning it. With that evidence it is clearly a lie to claim that Sand Veil carries "absolutely no downside, and there is literallly no skill in dealing with it" opposing weather starters/cancellers can turn off sand by switching in, making Sand Veil inactive unless you bring back ttar of the hippo(the resulting strategies to work around this force one to use a degree of skill. BTW, you have to hope that all moves with under 100/95 hit b/c that can cost you the game as well. Why do I bring those up, because like weather dependent abilities that raise evasion, speed, strength, etc. are CAN be dealt with if one uses skill. People like myself, who think that Sand Veil/Snow Cloak shouldn't be banned, are saying so b/c we don't think it's broken or as guarranteed as Brightpowder, since barring the "occasional" Trick or thief(so rarely used I don't know why it's even in the code) it was gonna happen, NOT TO SAVE GARCHOMP.


Finally, if you want to ban Garchomp then nominate it and state your reasons for doing so, feel free to name Sand Veil as something GARCHOMP can abuse because the lack of counters to Sand Veil GARCHOMP and the overpowered aspects to GARCHOMP rather than trying to ban it's only ability at the moment because my inner conspiracy theorist is acting up and that's what some of the ban Sand Veil areguements are starting to look like.

brightpowder was broken?are you serious?and lax incease was banned 'cause it was broken right?they were so broken that they were everywhere in the meta and everyone abused them....
obviously these items weren't broken!you need to understand what i have said one million times:not only broken stuff get banned!

if you still aren't convinced just say one more time what you said with bolded letters...just say once again that the evasion items were broken and you will see what people in this thread will tell you!

and about double team.some people think that dt was banned 'cause it was broken when this clearly wasn't the case.again if you want to see why they weren't broken see my above posts or ask anyone(that knows what he is talking about) in this forum...
the evasion raising move and items were banned due to uncompetitiveness!don't ask me what is this just read my above posts...
of course sand veil doesn't always work but when it does it creates an uncompetitive enviroment...that's why banning them only when they are active is the wiser solution!

Just like dealing with any decent sweeper?

"Hope that Excadrill doesn't flinch you, if it does, you lose"
"Hope that Kyurem's Ice Beam doesn't freeze you, if it does, you lose"
"Hope that Chandelure's Fire Blast doesn't burn your TTar, if it does, you lose".

He really isn't that much luck based as people make it sound. Just pay attention to any hax you may have suffered prior to your loss and you may realize Garchomp was far from the main player in it.

just like dealing with any decent sweeper you say?yet you mention 3 specific poke that fit the bill perfectly...how covenient...
those cases that you refer to are not the majority of the decent sweepers.
the basic thing that you have to do with a decent sweeper is to have the defences to take its hits and the attack or stalling abilties to kill him or force him out.
while it is true that some sweepers can win with a little bit of luck,you as a competitive player when you build a team you keep this fact in your head.
f.e.none good team runs only one excadrill check...never!
also this is the only example of yours that is valid.
how is exactly kyurem and chandelure going to sweep your team?rly tell me?
ok my tyranitar just got burned by chandelure!so what?i can still do decent damage back while resisting its main stabs and chandelure doesn't have any means of recovery plus sand is hurting her even more...
kyurem froze one of my pokes?so what?every steel type can take quite a beating from him a whole bunch of pokes outspeed them and he dies to priority and is weak to sr...
so yes they are not going to cost me the match...
the characteristics of a decent sweeper are nice attack,speed,coverage,typing,bulk sometimes and priority sometimes.hax is not an aspect that creates a good swepper.it just sometimes happens that a poke with all the characteristics of a decent sweeper gets also some moves which have a luck factor added.hax doesn't make for a good sweeper.

Really? I never saw any arguments supporting this at all in the last topic and I (shamefully) made most of my posts in the third suspect thread. They weren't banned for being broken or having no counters at all. They were banned as an extension of the evasion clause.




I cannot agree with this. At all. Sand Veil's risk comes at what exactly? Having to use tyranitar? An excellent special wall with numerous offensive and supportive sets? The #2 most used pokemon in the metagame right now? Simply slapping a tyranitar on your team does more good than bad. There is no risk to sand veil at all. If anything, sand veil is the bonus awarded to players for using two good pokemon: Garchomp and Tyranitar.

Yes, garchomp. Because the sand veil arguement would NOT EXIST if it wasn't for garchomp. I have seen no logs or posts going into detail because the match was lost thanks to an attack missing mamoswine, glaceon, etc. I'm not even sure why brightpowder was brought up in the last thread. And I'll have to disagree with your other point as well. There IS a downside to using brightpowder on a pokemon. Instead of holding a toxic orb, my poison heal gliscor/breloom is holding this so that attacks miss 1/10th of the time? Instead of leftovers, my blissey is holding this? Instead of a life orb for higher damage output, or a yache berry for protection against what would normally counter you, my garchomp is holding this? Really? Nine times out of ten, it does nothing! And it's supposed to be better than simply using tyranitar and an already amazing pokemon on the same team?



You're saying that sand veil's downside is running sand in a metagame where 40% of the teams are weather teams. The problem here is that 21% of those teams (the majority) ARE sand! 10% of the teams are rain. I don't even remember what Ninetales' statistics are. And the opposing weather starters can switch in and disable sand veil? Ninetales cannot switch into Garchomp (again, I'm only mentioning him, as there is no arguement without him) at all. Politoed can't either, and loses to Yachechomp even if it manages to live through a hit. Altaria? Ha! LickyLicky? Ha! Abomasnow? He can switch into Earthquake I suppose...



It is the choice of the player to use a move with accuracy less than 100%. I do not get any say in weather or not my opponent will simply carry garchomp and tyranitar on the same team.




I agree with this honestly. I do not agree with the notion of banning sand veil or snow cloak. The pokemon who have these abilities are not threatening enough to win entire games all on their own just when one attack misses. You do not need to carry two checks to something like Glaceon, because it will probably be countered just by building a team. Garchomp is a pokemon who requires specific counters, and when your specific counter loses to chomp because of sand veil, it can be upsetting. The idea of carrying more than one chomp check or counter is a bit silly because the arguement for doing so stems from not only accounting for the sand veil miss, but failing to check other dangerous pokemon in the metagame simply because you're that scared of your reliable garchomp counter not being so reliable.

All that being said, I still don't see a reason to ban garchomp. Even if sand veil is a tad problematic on him. No Sandstream + sand veil doesn't work because it means sand teams are denied from using good pokemon. Unlike swift swim + rain dance, garchomp is good outside of sand. Any arguements about sand veil should just concern garchomp's use of it, not the ability as a whole.

There are no sand veil users in OU right now aside from him and gliscor. Gliscor doesn't use this ability at all. So garchomp is quite literally the only relevant case to this topic.

what you say about garchomp is true.
we realised the problem even more 'cause of garchomp...he is the occasion!
but the problem is always there!and the problem is always there 'cause uncompetitiveness is based in a principle...pure luck must not be allowed in a competitive game.if a player even in 1 out of 100 matches loses a game to another less skilled player due to pure luck then this is bad.
why not just prevent it?
of course without garchomp almost noone would be losing games due to sand veil or snow cloak but if there was a guy who used a sand veil sd gliscor and after a miss he swept a team?or if he koed a weakened starmie when it was supposed to die by ice beam which missed?wouldn't these situations be unfair?why not prevent these misses even if they would happen very rare('cause almost noone would be winning games with sand veil pokes if garchomp was banned)...
especially when the ban means to prevent sand veil to be used in the same team with sandstorm .we don't lose anything from our game(in terms of competitive aspects) yet we remove that tiny little chance that eventually someone might lose to another sand veil user(except garchomp).it's a win win situation!

and i also like to hear your opinion about the evasion clause.
why do you think that it was implememented?
'cause evasion raising moves would break the metagame or 'cause they would create an uncompetitive enviroment?

 

[Nkululeko]

Really? I never saw any arguments supporting this at all in the last topic and I (shamefully) made most of my posts in the third suspect thread. They weren't banned for being broken or having no counters at all. They were banned as an extension of the evasion clause.

I was being sarcastic... saying it was broken and then listing counters. Read my earlier posts on the subject, Gen Empoleon and I argued that evasion boosting items/abilities weren't broken.


I cannot agree with this. At all. Sand Veil's risk comes at what exactly? Having to use tyranitar? An excellent special wall with numerous offensive and supportive sets? The #2 most used pokemon in the metagame right now? Simply slapping a tyranitar on your team does more good than bad. There is no risk to sand veil at all. If anything, sand veil is the bonus awarded to players for using two good pokemon: Garchomp and Tyranitar.

The risk, outside of Garchomp, is not having an ability if you lose the modified chess game aka weather wars. Ttar can die and simply lose SS with a switch in by a weather starter or cancellor. The bonus comes with a SLIGHT risk. I remember saying that.


Yes, garchomp. Because the sand veil arguement would NOT EXIST if it wasn't for garchomp.

I'm glad we agree.

I have seen no logs or posts going into detail because the match was lost thanks to an attack missing mamoswine, glaceon, etc. I'm not even sure why brightpowder was brought up in the last thread. And I'll have to disagree with your other point as well. There IS a downside to using brightpowder on a pokemon. Instead of holding a toxic orb, my poison heal gliscor/breloom is holding this so that attacks miss 1/10th of the time? Instead of leftovers, my blissey is holding this? Instead of a life orb for higher damage output, or a yache berry for protection against what would normally counter you, my garchomp is holding this? Really? Nine times out of ten, it does nothing! And it's supposed to be better than simply using tyranitar and an already amazing pokemon on the same team?

I referred to downsides in needing to activate it, I'm not a fan of the Brightpowder ban either but I was arguing for the Ability rather than the already banned Brightpowder.

You're saying that sand veil's downside is running sand in a metagame where 40% of the teams are weather teams. The problem here is that 21% of those teams (the majority) ARE sand! 10% of the teams are rain. I don't even remember what Ninetales' statistics are. And the opposing weather starters can switch in and disable sand veil? Ninetales cannot switch into Garchomp (again, I'm only mentioning him, as there is no arguement without him) at all. Politoed can't either, and loses to Yachechomp even if it manages to live through a hit. Altaria? Ha! LickyLicky? Ha! Abomasnow? He can switch into Earthquake I suppose...

Once again SLIGHT. There's a slight chance your mom's SUV is gonna transform into Optimus Prime and drag the whole family into a search for the All Spark, still not counting on it. Besides, the risk of opposing weathers is still there, all you need to do is secure a safe switch for Ninetails/Politoed/Altaria/LickyLicky/Abomasnow ONCE to disable Sand Veil not Chomp.

It is the choice of the player to use a move with accuracy less than 100%.

It is the choice of the player not to run anti-weather, which ensures that Sand Veil isn't BROKEN. Which was my point.

I do not get any say in weather or not my opponent will simply carry garchomp and tyranitar on the same team.

You have a say in whether your team can cancel your opponent's weather boosts. If you don't wanna play weather wars it's your CHOICE.

I agree with this honestly. I do not agree with the notion of banning sand veil or snow cloak. The pokemon who have these abilities are not threatening enough to win entire games all on their own just when one attack misses. You do not need to carry two checks to something like Glaceon, because it will probably be countered just by building a team. Garchomp is a pokemon who requires specific counters, and when your specific counter loses to chomp because of sand veil, it can be upsetting. The idea of carrying more than one chomp check or counter is a bit silly because the arguement for doing so stems from not only accounting for the sand veil miss, but failing to check other dangerous pokemon in the metagame simply because you're that scared of your reliable garchomp counter not being so reliable.

My ideas tend to be pretty radical but I knew we had to agree on something.

All that being said, I still don't see a reason to ban garchomp. Even if sand veil is a tad problematic on him. No Sandstream + sand veil doesn't work because it means sand teams are denied from using good pokemon. Unlike swift swim + rain dance, garchomp is good outside of sand. Any arguements about sand veil should just concern garchomp's use of it, not the ability as a whole.

There are no sand veil users in OU right now aside from him and gliscor. Gliscor doesn't use this ability at all. So garchomp is quite literally the only relevant case to this topic.

Used bold to show my responses.

 

[Nkululeko]

brightpowder was broken?are you serious?

As much as in our previous conversation. If you don't remember then I'm hurt :( But seriously, I fell the same about banning Brightpowder as I felt with our other discussion, Hint: No lol.

and lax incease was banned 'cause it was broken right?they were so broken that they were everywhere in the meta and everyone abused them....
obviously these items weren't broken!you need to understand what i have said one million times:not only broken stuff get banned!

We've been over this before and I'll say it again, I don't agree with banning unbroken elements and YOU know I use sarcasm, I've used it on you before and you got just as angry as you are now... I remember the ellipses, and saying later on that I'm all for suspending suspect testing temporarily, I bold to avoid trolls. Underlining and italicizing just make it "pop"

if you still aren't convinced just say one more time what you said with bolded letters...just say once again that the evasion items were broken and you will see what people in this thread will tell you!!

I used bold letters for emphasis, and I'm never that serious in my posts. If you can't remember, I've used sarcasm against you multiple times, and finally it's a pokemon forum, I'm not of scared at being flamed by pokemon fans, people like you need to take a few deep breaths and realize it's just a game...

and about double team.some people think that dt was banned 'cause it was broken when this clearly wasn't the case.again if you want to see why they weren't broken see my above posts or ask anyone(that knows what he is talking about) in this forum...

I know what I'm talking about, and WE have been over this subject before. Idk know why you wanna bring it up now, but you're giving me de ja vu with this assumption that those who agree with you will "know what they're talking about". We all know we're talking about, we just have different opinions, which you don't like iirc. And btw, I didn't mention Double Team but you always seem to bring it up, you're starting to get a little obssesive...

the evasion raising move and items were banned due to uncompetitiveness!don't ask me what is this just read my above posts...
of course sand veil doesn't always work but when it does it creates an uncompetitive enviroment...that's why banning them only when they are active is the wiser solution!

The above posts? Like me and Gen Empoleon shutting those same agruments down, those posts?. I've read them, I wrote half the material you quoted in them, and I still laugh every time I read them. I don't like banning things and don't see a need to seeing as this thread churns out new BS things to ban or unban constantly, and like your justification for banning what's not broken, I don't agree and this discussion went nowhere once before, why bring it up again?

 

[chrisrandom9]

This thread literally gets worse every time I come back. I thought Giratina was the lowest it could go; I was wrong

 

[alexwolf]

As much as in our previous conversation. If you don't remember then I'm hurt :( But seriously, I fell the same about banning Brightpowder as I felt with our other discussion, Hint: No lol.

i forgot that we had talked before and that's why i didn't understand the sarcasm...

We've been over this before and I'll say it again, I don't agree with banning unbroken elements and YOU know I use sarcasm, I've used it on you before and you got just as angry as you are now... I remember the ellipses, and saying later on that I'm all for suspending suspect testing temporarily, I bold to avoid trolls. Underlining and italicizing just make it "pop"

again i forgot that we had talked before....

I used bold letters for emphasis, and I'm never that serious in my posts. If you can't remember, I've used sarcasm against you multiple times, and finally it's a pokemon forum, I'm not of scared at being flamed by pokemon fans, people like you need to take a few deep breaths and realize it's just a game...

i didn't impy that you should be scared.i just told you to ask other people that know what they are talking about so you could see what their answer would be...and of course i know it's just a game that's why in most of cases i try to speak politely with other people...

I know what I'm talking about, and WE have been over this subject before. Idk know why you wanna bring it up now, but you're giving me de ja vu with this assumption that agree with you will "know what they're talking about". We all know we're talking about, we just have different opinions, which you don't like iirc. And btw, I didn't mention Double Team but you always seem to bring it up, you're starting to get a little obssesive...

i respect everyone's opinion and again i forgot that we had talked before that's why i told you all this stuff again not to brain wash you...

The above posts? Like me and Gen Empoleon shutting those same agruments down, those posts?. I've read them, I wrote half the material you quoted in them, and I still laugh every time I read them. I don't like banning things and don't see a need to seeing as this thread churns out new BS things to ban or unban constantly, and like your justification for banning what's not broken, I don't agree and this discussion went nowhere once before, why bring it up again?

and finally the same hostile style of yours as it was in my previous posts...when you talk with someone you must respect his opinions and his thoughts...
and it is funny that you the same guys that said to me that it is only a game is acting so hostile and gets so aggresive in a conversation about pokemon...
'cause i think that you know and you understand that when you say to others things like 'i owned you with my arguements' or 'i laugh every time i read your arguements' you don't promote the style of a guy that is so carefree and relaxed 'cause he plays a game neither the style of a man that knows how to make a right conversation without insulting other people...

 

[Fvm]

Sand Veil shouldn't be (complex) banned, people are only angry because their ice beam missed due to sand veil. Sand Veil is not uncompetitive due to all the weather wars in the meta, rain and sun nullify sand veil. It's also not uncompetitive because luck based strategies have existed LONG before SubChomp, haxrachi anyone? IMO Brightpowder was banned because of SubChomp (if SubChomp wasn't around people wouldn't notice Brightpowder) and I don't want Sand Veil to go the same way. If Sand Veil were truly uncompetitive, wouldn't CACTURNE be able to abuse it well in OU, which it obviously can't. Also about DT/Minimize, those could get a lot, A LOT worse than Sand Veil

 

[Nkululeko]

and finally the same hostile style of yours as it was in my previous posts...

I'm not hostile, I pointed out how you were and you react defensively. We can try to analyze each other all day but tie it into the point, as apparently I failed to. Why is Sand Veil broken, why is snow cloak broken? If they're not, don't ban them. Get on to me about substance, instead of playing the victim.

when you talk with someone you must respect his opinions and his thoughts...

Class, this is irony. You claim I don't know what I'm talking about, degrading my agrument as neglible, and you talk about respect. I now dubb thee Harvey Dent.

and it is funny that you the same guys that said to me that it is only a game is acting so hostile and gets so aggresive in a conversation about pokemon...

Again, it's you not understanding sarcasm that led to you getting so angry last time and this time again. Bring some quotes of you fielding my points politely or me being aggresive, I'm assertive in not letting my words be twisted(you did it here and last time...) and it's ironic because you stay on the exclamation point button...

'cause i think that you know and you understand that when you say to others things like 'i owned you with my arguements' or 'i laugh every time i read your arguements' you don't promote the style of a guy that is so carefree and relaxed 'cause he plays a game neither the style of a man that knows how to make a right conversation without insulting other people...

I said it in our previous discussion, quote what I say, not your translated impression of what I said. I laugh when I read the thread, that's both sides buddy. Carefree and relaxed, didn' say that either. Don't remember insulting you without quoting what you already said. If you're that embarassed by your own comments than don't post them.

 

[Glen ^^]

just like dealing with any decent sweeper you say?yet you mention 3 specific poke that fit the bill perfectly...how covenient...
those cases that you refer to are not the majority of the decent sweepers.
the basic thing that you have to do with a decent sweeper is to have the defences to take its hits and the attack or stalling abilties to kill him or force him out.
while it is true that some sweepers can win with a little bit of luck,you as a competitive player when you build a team you keep this fact in your head.
f.e.none good team runs only one excadrill check...never!
also this is the only example of yours that is valid.
how is exactly kyurem and chandelure going to sweep your team?rly tell me?
ok my tyranitar just got burned by chandelure!so what?i can still do decent damage back while resisting its main stabs and chandelure doesn't have any means of recovery plus sand is hurting her even more...
kyurem froze one of my pokes?so what?every steel type can take quite a beating from him a whole bunch of pokes outspeed them and he dies to priority and is weak to sr...
so yes they are not going to cost me the match...
the characteristics of a decent sweeper are nice attack,speed,coverage,typing,bulk sometimes and priority sometimes.hax is not an aspect that creates a good swepper.it just sometimes happens that a poke with all the characteristics of a decent sweeper gets also some moves which have a luck factor added.hax doesn't make for a good sweeper.

What? I named three average sweepers. Kyurem and Chandelure are far from the best - a freeze, burn or even para hax from anything else is much worse, really. And it's not like the dealer of those status has to stay in.


If you can manage around the "ordinary hax", you also should be able to manage around a pottential miss against Garchomp. And a miss is just a plus for him - unlike random side effects which can severely fuck your Pokemon for the rest of the match.


And why Excadrill is worthy having multiple checks, but not Garchomp?

 

[TorchicBlaziken]

the circumstances which must be met in order for tangled feet to activate are very rare so no.
also you can actively abuse sand veil by putting a sandstorm setter in your team.
how can you activley abuse tangled feet?predict the switch in to espeon and use confuse ray?it's not gonna happen...

Easy. Have your Dodrio use Thrash.

 

[TheValkyries]

ITGen: People realize they can ban things that aren't Pokemon for literally no reason whatsoever on the highly ambiguous grounds of a better game via a suspect test that gives us no possible preview into any future meta-game made with the bans for this ideal meta-game, leaving us blind to our very own standard by which we ban.

This generations policy has some intense flaws, and it needs to be fixed before we can really move on. Brightpowder/Lax Incense's ban was ridiculous, and these talks about Sand Veil/Snow Cloak are completely asinine. Neither are harming the meta-game in any significant way, and don't even deserve attention.

 

[Fvm]

Brightpowder/Lax Incense's ban was ridiculous, and these talks about Sand Veil/Snow Cloak are completely asinine.

I absolutely agree.

IMO Garchomp should be discussed, not Sand Veil. Garchomp is pretty much the only thing you'll see using sand veil. Your attacks still hit more often than not, which means Garchomp doesn't ALWAYS win. Also, SubChomp can only run its STABs, which are resisted by stuff like Skarmory or Levitate Bronzong.

 

[TorchicBlaziken]

I absolutely agree.

IMO Garchomp should be discussed, not Sand Veil. Garchomp is pretty much the only thing you'll see using sand veil. Your attacks still hit more often than not, which means Garchomp doesn't ALWAYS win. Also, SubChomp can only run its STABs, which are resisted by stuff like Skarmory or Levitate Bronzong.

Me too. Cacturne is good with BrightPowder and Sand Veil, but not OU good. The only reason people are even saying Garchomp with it is broken is that it was already broken last gen.

 

[Fvm]

Me too. Cacturne is good with BrightPowder and Sand Veil, but not OU good. The only reason people are even saying Garchomp with it is broken is that it was already broken last gen.

Really, I think its cuz the community's gone banhappy, they never play around stuff. They like to counter stuff with bans nowadays.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Brightpowder is banned because it was deemed broken and believed to have had no viable counters (Hone Claws, Lock-On, Theif, and Trick are the only ones I can name of the top of my head).

Second page.

This was a part of the ban, and I've already done it on the server. The ban to BrightPowder and Lax Incense was an extention of the evasion clause, which applies to every generation that the evasion clause exists in. For that reason, I've already implemented it on the server in this manner.

I'll repeat myself: If you guys want to ban Sand Veil/Snow Cloak because of both violating Evasion Clause, then be ready to never use Froslass/Cacturne/Garchomp in ADV/DPPt ever again.

 

[alexwolf]

Bring some quotes of you fielding my points politely or me being aggresive, I'm assertive in not letting my words be twisted(you did it here and last time...) and it's ironic because you stay on the exclamation point button...
I said it in our previous discussion, quote what I say, not your translated impression of what I said.

'sounds like a gameshark sales pitch...'

'You're saying of course sounds like you're agreeing with what I implied about the subject in that post but whatever, I don't care either way and I was addressing sombody else iirc, sorry if i made you feel special, my b.'
these are 2 examples of what i meant.in the first example you just mock one of my sayings...you completely ignore what i have written and instead you decide to continue the discussion by mocking me...and in the second example the aggresive style of yours can be clearly seen.you say to me that you are sorry for making me feel special...does this feel not ironic and aggresive to you?
and anyway at some point of course i was a little bit aggresive too but that was just 'cause you provoked me...

anyway let's close this discussion 'cause noone wants to see us babbling about who was aggresive and who wasn't...

What? I named three average sweepers. Kyurem and Chandelure are far from the best - a freeze, burn or even para hax from anything else is much worse, really. And it's not like the dealer of those status has to stay in.


If you can manage around the "ordinary hax", you also should be able to manage around a pottential miss against Garchomp. And a miss is just a plus for him - unlike random side effects which can severely fuck your Pokemon for the rest of the match.


And why Excadrill is worthy having multiple checks, but not Garchomp?

did i said that garchomp wasn't worth of multiple checks?

Easy. Have your Dodrio use Thrash.

if you want to talk serious let me know...

 

[Thorhammer]

sand stream + sand veil complex ban, anyone?

That appears to be where this is heading.

Me too. Cacturne is good with BrightPowder and Sand Veil, but not OU good. The only reason people are even saying Garchomp with it is broken is that it was already broken last gen.

Not being OU good couldn't be less relevant. This proposal is not about OU; it is about all tiers. If Cacturne is at all good in any tier in which Hippopotas is also used, it is just as relevant as Garchomp.

As for your other statement, I don't see anyone currently arguing here who wants Garchomp singled out or even banned as part of a group, so it's clearly false to say that anyone is concerned in the slightest about Garchomp having been broken last gen. It's also illogical to even suggest in the first place - Latias, Salamence, Deoxys-D, and Mew were all broken last gen, but none of them has been given the slightest bit of attention now. I don't know why people keep suggesting it, but please cease spreading that ignorance.

Second page.



I'll repeat myself: If you guys want to ban Sand Veil/Snow Cloak because of both violating Evasion Clause, then be ready to never use Froslass/Cacturne/Garchomp in ADV/DPPt ever again.

I believe the people who wanted an absolute ban on Sand Veil and/or snow Cloak have completely disappeared, and for good reason. Stop arguing with imaginary opponents.

 

[Fvm]

But the thing is, I don't agree with a complex ban, at least Drizzle + Swift Swim had a purpose. Sand Veil + Sand Stream's only purpose is to satisfy people who can't accept the fact their attack missed

 

[jas61292]

That appears to be where this is heading.

Not at all, there are a few people here complaining about it. The majority of people don't take time talking about thinks they don't think should be banned. I highly doubt these will ever get close to any ban, and the general aversion to complex bans makes what has been suggested all the more unlikely.

 

[Shining Kestral]

A Sand Veil + Sandstream ban honestly isn't going to do that much, even if one was put into effect. Such a ban won't change Sandstorm's huge presence in the metagame, or will people suddenly become willing to not put Tyranitar in their teams in fear of activating an opposing Garchomp's Sand Veil?

 

[Matthew]

I absolutely agree.

IMO Garchomp should be discussed, not Sand Veil. Garchomp is pretty much the only thing you'll see using sand veil. Your attacks still hit more often than not, which means Garchomp doesn't ALWAYS win. Also, SubChomp can only run its STABs, which are resisted by stuff like Skarmory or Levitate Bronzong.

Yeah, the most common Chomp (sub chomp) is walled hard by skarmory and bronzong. There's literally nothing it can do to them honestly. But if it gets to the point where you need to run either Skarmory or Bronzong to avoid Garchomp sweeping you then we have a problem. Though I don't think it's gotten to that point yet, and I don't think it will, but maybe the metagame will evolve into that, who knows.

Me too. Cacturne is good with BrightPowder and Sand Veil, but not OU good. The only reason people are even saying Garchomp with it is broken is that it was already broken last gen.

BrightPowder isn't even the best item you can use on your Sand Veil abuse 'Mon. You still only get 4 subs with BrightPowder, while if you run Leftovers you have 5 Subs+ factoring in misses. That's a whole lot more threatening in the long run. So yeah, Leftovers > BrightPowder.

Anyway, I would agree that I think people are getting a bit "ban happy" this early in the metagame. I wouldn't actually mind putting the suspect process on hold and wait for the metagame to develop a bit more before we start banning (or not!!) more things. It feels a bit early to be so into the suspect process already when the metagame already feels so new. That could just be me however.

 

[alexwolf]

while i support the complex ban of sand veil +sand stream i agree with Shining Kestral that this ban is not so important and doesn't require a lot of attention...
but i thought that this is the right time to discuss about it since there are no other suspects as of now except than garchomp,who anyway wouldn't be suspect if the above complex ban was made!

i also agree with Gen. Empoleon that the whole suspect testing should be delayed as the metagame is fine as it is now(the sand veil + sand stream is not such an important ban).but if we have the suspect test in process and there are not serious suspects why not discuss the less importants suspects like sand veil etc...