np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

[SlimMan]

Because he's a wall?

Ok. Now I'll start switching my Ferrothorn into Infernape. Because after all, Ferrothorn is a wall.

The point is that lugia can be killed by strong super effective hits when it runs the appropriate max/max bulky spread. The majority of sets cited in this thread are running max speed, meaning that lugia is easily killed by any strong attack, especially with rocks up. Lugia is not unkillable at all.

There's a difference between "strong, super effective hits" and "coming in on a sweeper with SE STAB as it boosts its stats". The former is reasonable, the latter is not.

I ask you again, JTSwift, what can the majority of OU do to Lugia.
Answer: nothing.

Anything can be killed by SE, boosted, STAB moves. Any Uber. I'm wondering what makes Lugia in particular OU-worthy.

Reuniclus, suicune, virizion, slowbro, latias, sigilyph, the list goes on. Why would you choose lugia over any of these?

Because Lugia is a fucking monster. He has more bulk than any of the Pokemon you just listed. He has more Speed than all of them (ties with Latias). He has better coverage than most of them. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

The fact that you even just said that brings your credibility into question, man. It's one thing to talk about Lugia's bad points, but that question was absolutely absurd.

That's your opinion. It doesn't seem to have much foundation to me, but you're entitled to it, just as I am mine. Proving? "It's fast, super bulky and has calm mind plus I don't like it" isn't proving anything.

If you think "i dont like it" is the foundation of our arguments, then you shouldn't even stay here. We've explained things to you, and you refuse to accept them.
But when we do the same to you, we're "being closed-minded, stubborn, and arrogant".

I had a look through the last 4 pages of this thread, and I didn't really see any good arguments against lugia. His noteworthy sets were mentioned, but no real comparisons, no thorough damage calcs...

As if your damage calcs were "thorough". I don't mean to be rude, but do damage calcs on the rest of OU. Do damage calcs involving a CM Lugia. You've chosen the only calcs in OU which can harm Lugia, and there weren't even that many.

My point is this: If we let lugia down, there is every possibility that it will be top OU. A great wall on par with stuff like ferrothorn and slowbro, and a calm minder to rival overcoat reuniclus. At this point, nobody can prove that it will be too much for OU, and we have no real way of discerning this without testing it. The top 10 contains some extremely good pokemon, and I posit that lugia could be one of them. Extremely good, but not overpowering or overcentralizing to the point of warranting a ban.

Okay, I have nothing to say to this without repeating myself again. I do, however, have two minor nitpicks.

It's about your comparisons to Slowbro and Ferrothorn. It's defensive stats far out-shine Ferrothorn and Slowbro. Slowbro and Ferrothorn both have less HP and Sp Def than Lugia. It's true that Ferrothorn can use Spikes, but Lugia has instant recovery to make up for it.

About the Reuniclus thing, I assume you meant Magic Guard Renuiclus.
If you actually did mean Overcoat Reuniclus, then you just lost huge amounts of credibility. Overcoat Reuniclus would probably be RU or NU, because it's just another Psychic. We have Beheeyem, Gardevoir, etc. CM Lugia would be incredible, don't even try to act like it wouldn't. A comparison between Overcoat Reuniclus and Lugia is insulting.

As for the rest of this, I honestly don't want to repeat myself. Read everyone's posts to see what I'm going to say.

It is weak to every status condition and form of residual damage except spikes and toxic spikes, all of which can jeopardize it's bulk. You're telling me to stop creating favourable conditions for myself alexwolf? Why does everyone assume that lugia will be at 100% all the time and running the correct set to counter everything? What if cloyster or thundurus are sweeping? Lugia can't stop either. What if it switched into SR, switched out again and is now going to be at 50% next switchin? What if it gets poisoned? Lugia is not reuniclus.

Jellicent is weak to every form of residual damage, including Spikes and Toxic Spikes. Rotom-W has the exact same residual damage vulnerabilities as Lugia, and yet it's considered an amazing defensive Pokemon, even making the top 10. Lugia has reliable recovery, Rotom-W does not. Stop assuming that every Pokemon will be able to Toxic it as it switches in.

Lugia can't stop a Cloyster or Thundurus sweep.
But what if the other 40-some Pokemon are sweeping? Lugia's got it handled.
Lugia is not in a vacuum by itself. It has teammates, and it's broken with support. Deoxys-A wasn't broken if it was alone on a team. But it had 5 teammates to handle what it couldn't. Same with Lugia.

What if Lugia siwtched into SR, switched out again, and then switched back in. Then it used Roost as it forces a Pokemon out, which its bulk would do to 40-some Pokemon in OU. Now it's back up to a healthy amount.

What if it gets poisoned, and then Blissey Heal Bells it? Or what if it avoids getting poisoned? Obvious Toxic is obvious (from things like Jellicent, Tentacruel, Blissey really any defensive Pokemon at all; and offensive Pokemon don't run Toxic). You can't pretend that every Pokemon carries Toxic on every set, and that the Lugia will switch into every Pokemon in every battle. That's ridiculous.

No, Lugia is not Reuniclus. Neither are the other 647 Pokemon. You don't have to use Magic Guard to be broken (hence the Uber tier).




@mien, I am not good enough at arguing to convince you my side is right. I'm human, and I can't be the perfect debater. But I do have a nitpick to make.

Not sure why you are bolding the part that it can beat Choice Band Tyranitar, considering it's UU counterpart Sigilyph can do the same 1 on 1. In essence it doesn't show or prove anything.

Adamant CB Tar using Stone Edge can 2HKO Max/Max Bold Sigilyph, even through Lefties. It has to get very high damage rolls, but it can.
But Sigilyph beats every other Tar set.

 

[November Blue]

Why do you keep going on about this, JT Swift? It should be painfully clear by now that nobody besides you and a handful of others thinks Lugia could work in OU. No matter how much you keep arguing (and poorly, I might add) that it should be OU, nobody is going to go along with it.
Please, we're asking you, just let it go. It's never going to happen, so please stop cluttering up this thread with a debate on something that isn't going to change.

Also the reason nobody takes you seriously is because you push for ridiculous shit like Rayquaza to be tested in OU.

Poorly? sigh.

I'll admit that rayquaza was a bit of a stretch, but don't shoot me because I play devils advocate.

I concede though. The lugia debacle has run it's course, and it's clear that nothing is going to happen at this point.

JTSwift, for you to say that everyone is ignoring and mocking this is ridiculous. When people disagree with you, it does not make them "childish and hostile". Read the past few pages, and you'll see people actually debating many of the points which mien made.

I hear ya, but you have to admit that there were a lot of knee-jerk reactions to the idea. I never said childish btw.

And, no one is saying "you made some good points, I could see it working." because we can't see it working. o you expect us to lie about it? We believe that it would break OU and create a worse metagame (at least, I am, and I assume most anti-Lugia people are). No, we are not "interested in what would come of that", because we're sure it would be bad.

Fair enough.

Also, I like how Lugia suddenly runs no Def EVs, in order to be OHKOed sometimes. Show us what those same calcs would be if Lugia ran max Def. Be consistent in your calcs.

Huh? I did. The most popular set seems to be the max HP max speed timid set, which has no defense EVs. I ran most calcs twice. Once for that set, and max def/spdef to show the extent of lugia's bulk.

Seriously, JTSwift, you just showed pretty much the only things in OU which can even touch Lugia.

When I was making the list a few things surprised me. There were a lot of pokes that failed to do anything significant to lugia, even without defense EVs. I imagine that it would shrug off most hits unless you prepared for it.

I wasn't expecting thundurus or cloyster to pull of the OHKO either. +1 for the clam!

Where Lugia really shines, where it dominates is in the context of a (semi-)stall team. Sure, it can't take on Rotom-w directly--but Blissey can. Lugia is much more of a team player than say, Darkrai or Rayquaza.

This is actually quite a good point...

@JT Swift <--- This is me!
I made an error in the original post, 1166 (including LO) was incorrect and I fixed it soon as someone pointed it out. DW, I got confused as well. o_O

But,
after having some time to think about it, I've changed my mind. I support the decision to test Manaphy in OU Yay! *hugs*

I had more to say about Lugia, but my sister deleted my whole post so I'll re-write it later on. Your sister sounds fun.

I'm done beating the dead lugia horse. I apologize for "cluttering up the thread."

I had no idea my posts were so bad...

 

[mien]

Adamant CB Tar using Stone Edge can 2HKO Max/Max Bold Sigilyph, even through Lefties. It has to get very high damage rolls, but it can.
But Sigilyph beats every other Tar set.

Well it's quite hard for me to join a side which brings claims like this one without thinking for a second.

Sigilyph has about 92% chance of winning this matchup depending on whether Psycho shift misses or not. (I made it use Hone Claws and item Wide lens to ensure SE wouldn't miss)

Hide

Start of turn 1
Sigilyph used Roost!
But it failed!

The foe's Tyranitar used Hone Claws!
The foe's Tyranitar's Attack rose!
The foe's Tyranitar's Accuracy rose!

The sandstorm rages!
Sigilyph's Flame Orb activated!
Sigilyph was burned!

Start of turn 2
Sigilyph used Psycho Shift!
Sigilyph moved its status onto the foe's Tyranitar!
The foe's Tyranitar was burned!

The foe's Tyranitar used Stone Edge!
It's super effective!
Sigilyph lost 248 HP! (71% of its health)

The sandstorm rages!
Sigilyph's Flame Orb activated!
Sigilyph was burned!
The foe's Tyranitar is hurt by its burn!

Start of turn 3
Sigilyph used Roost!
Sigilyph landed on the ground!
Sigilyph regained health!

The foe's Tyranitar used Stone Edge!
Sigilyph lost 132 HP! (37% of its health)

The sandstorm rages!
The foe's Tyranitar is hurt by its burn!

Start of turn 4
Sigilyph used Roost!
Sigilyph landed on the ground!
Sigilyph regained health!

The foe's Tyranitar used Stone Edge!
Sigilyph lost 132 HP! (37% of its health)

The sandstorm rages!
The foe's Tyranitar is hurt by its burn!

Start of turn 5
Sigilyph used Roost!
Sigilyph landed on the ground!
Sigilyph regained health!

The foe's Tyranitar used Stone Edge!
A critical hit!
Sigilyph lost 234 HP! (67% of its health)

The sandstorm rages!
The foe's Tyranitar is hurt by its burn!

Start of turn 6
Sigilyph used Roost!
Sigilyph landed on the ground!
Sigilyph regained health!

The foe's Tyranitar used Stone Edge!
Sigilyph lost 130 HP! (37% of its health)

The sandstorm rages!
The foe's Tyranitar is hurt by its burn!

Start of turn 7
Sigilyph used Roost!
Sigilyph landed on the ground!
Sigilyph regained health!

The foe's Tyranitar used Stone Edge!
Sigilyph lost 120 HP! (34% of its health)

The sandstorm rages!
The foe's Tyranitar is hurt by its burn!

Start of turn 8
Sigilyph used Roost!
Sigilyph landed on the ground!
Sigilyph regained health!

The foe's Tyranitar used Stone Edge!
Sigilyph lost 120 HP! (34% of its health)

The sandstorm rages!
The foe's Tyranitar is hurt by its burn!

Start of turn 9
Sigilyph used Roost!
Sigilyph landed on the ground!
Sigilyph regained health!

The foe's Tyranitar used Stone Edge!
Sigilyph lost 117 HP! (33% of its health)

The sandstorm rages!
The foe's Tyranitar is hurt by its burn!

Start of turn 10
Sigilyph used Roost!
Sigilyph landed on the ground!
Sigilyph regained health!

The foe's Tyranitar used Hone Claws!
The foe's Tyranitar's Attack rose!
The foe's Tyranitar's Accuracy rose!

The sandstorm rages!
The foe's Tyranitar is hurt by its burn!
The foe's Tyranitar fainted!

Normally, yes. but the burden of proof is always on those who wish to change the status of the mon in question. Snce Lugia's already banned, it's on the pro-Lugia crowd to present arguments toward any change(unbanning Lugia).

The reason why Lugia was banned was simply because it had the in-game label of 'cover legendary'. No real reasons for it's banishment have ever been given.

 

[BurningMan]

Your response reminds me of a long IRC chat i had with Locopoke and Reyscarface in october attempting to convince others that Mew may not be as outright broken as it seems. Which eventually ended with randoms calling me retarded for saying mew might be legimate and saying 'nobody agrees with you, why do you continue?

In October the metagame was extremely fresh and almost noone could foresaw how the metagame will turnout to be. Of course your right, nobody can see now how Lugia will be in OU exactly since nobody ever played with Lugia in OU. However a lot people have played with and against it in Ubers and of those people everyone knows that its already a beast up there walling things like Extremekiller Arceus and Groudon.
I think you could very well compare it to eviolite Chansey in UU it can wall every pokemon unless you have a super effective stab, just that you can't set-up on it because it whirlwinds you away and can do some damage with a Stab 100 BP attack and okay attacking stats.

Lugia in OU would definetly be interesting, but i don't really won't to spend a suspect round with it, because i can't see how it would help the metagame.

 

[Glen ^^]

I have to question this: out of many top tier legendaries, why Lugia?

Out of many things that really could work in OU (like Speed Boost Blaziken, Swift Swimmers, Manaphy, Bright Powder) or out of OU (Garchomp, Drizzle, Excadrill), why you want Lugia so bad?

Bring down Rayquaza and people will stop bitching about weather wars and shit like that. It's easier to revenge kill Rayquaza than Haxorus. Both have similar physical prowess. Haxorus has the advantage in the form of Dual Chop, Taunt and pure Dragon typing while lacks the hability to use special attacks so it's fair. Therefore I demand Rayquaza in OU. This makes way much more sense than... Lugia.

 

[IcyMan28]

Well it's quite hard for me to join a side which brings claims like this one without thinking for a second.

Sigilyph has about 92% chance of winning this matchup depending on whether Psycho shift misses or not. (I made it use Hone Claws and item Wide lens to ensure SE wouldn't miss)

Why we are even discussing Sigilyph is beyond me. Yes, it has a set designed specifically to defeat Tyranitar and other Dark-types, which means Lugia is not alone.

No, Sigilyph does not have base 110 speed, the bulk to wall and stall nearly all of current OU with minimal defensive investment, and it does not have the sheer utility that Lugia brings to the table.

I may have missed your post, Mien, but I took your original argument and pointed out the flaws while still conceding the appropriate points where they were due, and the results were heavily in favor of Lugia dominating the metagame even with a bulky boosting set. I simply do not think anything in OU is really capable of taking it down singlehandedly.

Okay, I know I've said this before elsewhere, but it WAS a while back, so I'll address it again now. The thing you need to remember about Lugia is that nothing is ever going to face it in a vacuum--we know that some Pokemon will beat it in a one-on-one situation. Where Lugia really shines, where it dominates is in the context of a (semi-)stall team. Sure, it can't take on Rotom-w directly--but Blissey can. Lugia is much more of a team player than say, Darkrai or Rayquaza. If you're trying to say that it's not going to sweep teams on its own, I would agree. I think that if you saw Lugia in OU, however, the top of the ladder would be stall vs stall at least 1/3 of the time, and good luck breaking stall with Lugia on it.

I also just wanted to quote this for emphasis. Lugia is more of a team player, we can all agree on that. The logical argument would be that "well if Lugia gets teammates, so does the other team."

And that's where the pro-Lugia side is put into a checkmate position - there are so few pokemon in OU that are capable of threatening Lugia that it doesn't matter what teammates to Tyranitar you may be running, because Lugia will shit on them regardless.

Tl;dr - Let's just stop talking about Lugia. Those who want it brought down are a substantial minority and, if anything, should simply nominate it in the suspect thread next round to see where that takes them.

___________________________________


Manaphy

I've been waiting quite a while for this discussion to be brought up by someone other than me, and I'm glad for it.

@Rosey Oak, I think we would all have an easier time debating this if the calculations you chose weren't all best-case scenario for Manaphy (i.e. a super-effective attack coming off of a LO and TG boost). If anything, we should be looking at how it will play on average, so I'll set a baseline here.

Offensive Manaphy

Manaphy@Leftovers
Timid; 6 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

Surf
Ice Beam
Tail Glow
HP Electric

This is the set I'll take as the standard offensive Manaphy. In my opinion, there is no need to run max speed due to the decreased usage of the base 100s that threaten Manaphy (Celebi, Zapdos, Shaymin, etc), but this simple spread often ends up the standard anyway.

On The Defensive

Jolly Balloon Excadrill's Earthquake on 6/0 Manaphy: (49.42% - 58.19%)
Timid LO Latios' Dragon Pulse on 6/0 Manaphy: (56.43% - 66.67%)

I didn't use obscenely powerful attacks for these calcs, just what seem to be strong attacks from Top 10 pokemon. Manaphy is losing half of its HP to neutral attacks and is frequently outsped.

I'm not even going to bother posting +3 calcs because being able to KO things at that level is something that any pokemon can do. I will, however, do a quick Top 20 analysis of how I expect Manaphy to fare, with rocks on both sides.

1. Tyranitar: Manaphy wins here, obviously.
2. Ferrothorn: It is difficult for Manaphy to come out on top. Ferrothorn will switch in on the TG, seed Manaphy the following turn (Manaphy cannot 2HKO with a +3 Ice Beam nor OHKO at +6), then do a devastating 71% minimum with Power Whip. 100-12+6-12+6-71-12+6=23% remaining. If Ferrothorn rolls at least 76% on its Power Whip (less than the average roll), and assuming Leech Seed happens before Leftovers (I can't remember lol), Manaphy will faint without defeating Ferrothorn. Anything less, and Manaphy defeats Ferrothorn and is easily revenged next time aka a 1 for 1 trade.
   
   Don't anyone give me some bullshit about being pedantic, it is simple math involving the numbers with what ACTUALLY happens in a battle.
3. Garchomp: On the chopping block I guess, but Manaphy will win. It can, however, be revenged at around 50%.
4. Scizor: Manaphy cannot switch in, as +2 Bug Bite from 40 Atk Scizor followed by Bullet Punch will KO Manaphy. Unboosted Surf fails to do even 50% to the standard Scizor.
5. Gliscor: Obvious win for Manaphy is obvious.
6. Latios: Manaphy loses horribly, fearing Specs Draco Meteor and, without Wacan Berry, Thunderbolt.
7. Rotom-W: Manaphy will outspeed it but struggles to 2HKO 128 HP variants even at +3 and will fall to Thunderbolt.
8. Excadrill: Manaphy can take an unboosted Earthquake and KO with Surf, but in practice Excadrill will be at +2 if Manaphy switches into anything other than a double switch.
9. Reuniclus: Manaphy cannot actually switch into this. It comes into +1 Reuniclus and takes 51% minimum while boosting up to +3, which still isn't enough to take out a +1 Reuniclus with Surf.
10. Heatran: Manaphy wins.
11. Jirachi: +3 Surf does not OHKO SpD Jirachi, which could mean paralysis costing you a sweep. I'll give the win to Manaphy, though, as that is conditional.
12. Dragonite: Manaphy does not want to switch into this at all. +1 Dragon Claw 2HKOs Manaphy while unboosted Manaphy cannot OHKO through Multi-Scale with Ice Beam. AgilityNite is irrelevant because Manaphy is decidedly Uber with Drizzle around, but MixNite will tear Manaphy to shreds with DM + Extremespeed. Multiscale is assumed because Draggy appreciates a spinner so much so that it is almost standard.
13. Conkeldurr: Manaphy wins.
14. Politoed: Would be irrelevant by the time Manaphy is OU.
15. Gengar: Never runs Thunderbolt anymore, but it can take a decent chunk out of Manaphy with Shadow Ball. If it Subs on the TG, it can Shadow Ball as Manaphy breaks it then Disable whatever Manaphy used the next turn to leave it exposed to a check.
16. Skarmory: Manaphy wins.
17. Thundurus: Lol
18. Jellicent: HP Electric Manaphy can win, but it will be hit by Toxic in the process, crippling it.
19. Starmie: LO Starmie 2HKOs with Thunderbolt (even with Wacan) before Manaphy 2HKOs with HP Electric.
20. Volcarona: A seeming win for Manaphy is at best a draw. Manaphy can't OHKO even before QD, while Volcarona OHKOs with +1 LO Bug Buzz. If Manaphy Surfs before the QD, LO recoil will kill Volcarona with it. If Volcarona wins the speed tie and QD's first, it will have killed Manaphy and remained with about 20% to spare. See Dragonite regarding Rapid Spin.

Manaphy has an extremely difficult time setting up on anything in the top 20. In fact, it only gains about 4 solid opportunities (as in it does not come down to prediction). Of those 4 (Tyranitar, Gliscor, Heatran, Conkeldurr), it can already defeat 2 of them without needing to boost.

Note that this list does not even include pokemon further down the OU list that could revenge Manaphy with relative ease - Infernape's LO Close Combat, Hydreigon's Scarf Draco Meteor, Scarf Magnezone's Thunderbolt, Terrakion's LO SE/CC, Deoxys-S LO Thunderbolt, and Mienshao's LO Fake Out + HJK. Virizion can and will CM up alongside it and simply restore the health back with Giga Drain.

On paper, Manaphy is grand. In practice, it is just another set up sweeper. I am well aware that Manaphy can run a set of CM / Rain Dance / Rest / Surf, but that is less immediately threatening, more vulnerable to physical attackers, lacks coverage, and in general is better discussed in a different post at a later time.

 

[Blackdragonking]

Big Edit!! Condensing...

Aeroblast lugia does not like pressure. Aerodactyl resists both moves, and can win with a subhone set. Articuno can haze his boosts and whirlwind him away, eviolite dusclops can do a lot of things to lugia, like subsplit, toxic stalling (taunt) trick, calm mind + seismic toss... Zapdos can beat him with a subroost set. I mentioned aeroblast's low PP before. He's in danger of running out of it, especially on stall teams where he can't afford to blast willy nilly.

A fair point, but if lugia were OU worthy, it shouldn't be uber just because people don't like it. A lot of people have argued this point repeatedly for stuff like latios and reuniclus, both of which are OU. A lot of people are currently fine with this. You can't please everyone though.

I suppose so, although I am still 100% in favor of banning Latios forever. Hell, I'm not so keen on Latias being around and that thing's in danger of dropping to UU.

Nah, probably not. But wallbreakers and pokes that hit it super effectively do threaten it.

There is a point there, but the problem is getting to the point that they threaten it gives Lugia a free turn or two to either retreat and let a teammate handle it, set up screens, or zap the enemy if it's weak enough. Haxorus does NOT like taking Special hits, so setting up on Lugia if it doesn't flee is a risky move, especially since Swords Dance can leave it vulnerable to a fast ice-beamer coming in to scare Haxorus off in return.

I'm really not sure how to respond to this. Your entire post was quite good, but then you finish with this...

What can lugia do about excadrill? It can't switch into rock slide if rocks are up, and gets 2HKOed at +2. Earth power won't KO, but you can whirlwind it out (just like skarm.) Gliscor and skarmory outclass it in this situation. The rock neutrality means that they can survive a 2HKO, and gliscor can EQ for the KO.

Give me a sec to respond to everything else, and we'll let this die.

This was the main reason I replied to this post, since I wanted to explain this last bit. It seems like you were a little confused by my meaning, and I'm sorry about that.

What I meant is that the calcs don't seem very likely to me to come into play if the Lugia player knows what he's doing because the easiest solution is to simply let Lugia sit back and let something else handle the threats that can actually take care of it. Why bother sticking around with Excadrill out, when a team running Lugia at all probably has Skarmory and/or Gliscor along for the ride? What I meant was that the Lugia player will more than likely recognize each of the things strong enough to threaten Lugia as they set up, and either whirlwind while the threat pumps its stats (assuming he has WW, which will not be the case all the time) or switch out in order to let another pokemon handle it. Yeah, +2 Haxorus and Excadrill are pretty scary to Lugia, but Skarmory's not so impressed with them. I'm merely making the point that it's not enough to have wallbreakers and strong SE hits set up for Lugia, you need to make sure you outmanuever your opponent in a way that they cannot evade them with a switch. Lugia's defenses are good at earning it a space to roost, so even rocks won't keep it at bay forever, especially if the team carries a spinner.

I'm just concerned that some of the calcs make fighting certain ubers seem deceptively manageable, while a wily opponent can neutralize those strategies by simply selecting good teammates for Lugia. Uber pokemon get a huge advantage over ordinary pokemon with teams built around them, because they're just that much stronger than most. Kyurem wasn't a good example almost purely because its typing wasn't the best defensively, and even he was much too good once you took the top 53 pokemon out of the equation.

 

[SlimMan]

Well it's quite hard for me to join a side which brings claims like this one without thinking for a second.

Sigilyph has about 92% chance of winning this matchup depending on whether Psycho shift misses or not. (I made it use Hone Claws and item Wide lens to ensure SE wouldn't miss)

Whether or not Psycho Shift misses or not is irrelevant. I was talking about a Burned BandTar.

But I said it was a nitpick, that Tar technically could win with high rolls. I never said "omg stone edge beats flying mon". For you to jump instantly to your superior attitude, implying absurdity in a minor correction makes us view you in a pretty low light too. If you can't take a small error even being mentioned, then I'm terrified of how you take actual criticism.

 

[mien]

But I said it was a nitpick, that Tar technically could win with high rolls. I never said "omg stone edge beats flying mon". For you to jump instantly to your superior attitude, implying absurdity in a minor correction makes us view you in a pretty low light too. If you can't take a small error even being mentioned, then I'm terrified of how you take actual criticism.

I interpreted your post in which you claimed that your side is right as a sign of superiority, hence the reason i responded that way. Though it could also be a misinterpretation based on the language barrier.

I may have missed your post, Mien, but I took your original argument and pointed out the flaws while still conceding the appropriate points where they were due, and the results were heavily in favor of Lugia dominating the metagame even with a bulky boosting set. I simply do not think anything in OU is really capable of taking it down singlehandedly.

I'm sorry that i haven't yet responded to your thoughtfull post of my analyse, i originally spended 3 hours on said response but lost it due to my PC rebooting without warning for some useless update.

I'll try to get it rewritten soon when i find time.

Tl;dr - Let's just stop talking about Lugia. Those who want it brought down are a substantial minority and, if anything, should simply nominate it in the suspect thread next round to see where that takes them.

There is no point in posting it in the suspect identification topic, one cannot achieve succes as long as you don't have people to support it.

Also I don't necessarily want to bring it down, rather to check whether it should be brought down or not through testing.

In October the metagame was extremely fresh and almost noone could foresaw how the metagame will turnout to be. Of course your right, nobody can see now how Lugia will be in OU exactly since nobody ever played with Lugia in OU. However a lot people have played with and against it in Ubers and of those people everyone knows that its already a beast up there walling things like Extremekiller Arceus and Groudon.
I think you could very well compare it to eviolite Chansey in UU it can wall every pokemon unless you have a super effective stab, just that you can't set-up on it because it whirlwinds you away and can do some damage with a Stab 100 BP attack and okay attacking stats.

Lugia in OU would definetly be interesting, but i don't really won't to spend a suspect round with it, because i can't see how it would help the metagame.

I have played a substantial amount of battles in the ubers metagame on a high competitive level and i'll be honest it isn't that great. By my own observation it appears to be far more popular amongst newer players that the veterans(i can't prove this unfortunatly due to lack of weighted stats). Also Extremekiller Arceus and Groudon can be countered by Quagsire as well, the pokemon which which i've been constantly comparing Lugia with so far.

Needless to say Lugia's performance in ubers is completely irrelevant, OU is all what counts.

 

[IcyMan28]

I'm sorry that i haven't yet responded to your thoughtfull post of my analyse, i originally spended 3 hours on said response but lost it due to my PC rebooting without warning for some useless update.

I'll try to get it rewritten soon when i find time.

Don't sweat it, it's not that big of a deal lol.

There is no point in posting it in the suspect identification topic, one cannot achieve succes as long as you don't have people to support it.

Also I don't necessarily want to bring it down, rather to check whether it should be brought down or not through testing.

And I'm sorry to say, it doesn't seem that there is. Although that one Reuniclus caught everyone's attention and had decent support for a round or two (thank god that's over).

Testing whether or not is fair enough, but again I feel that it is blatantly apparent that it would be overpowering, simply based on Uber play and the theorymon we've all been slinging back and forth.

 

[Tobes]

I have to question this: out of many top tier legendaries, why Lugia?

Out of many things that really could work in OU (like Speed Boost Blaziken, Swift Swimmers, Manaphy, Bright Powder) or out of OU (Garchomp, Drizzle, Excadrill), why you want Lugia so bad?

Bring down Rayquaza and people will stop bitching about weather wars and shit like that. It's easier to revenge kill Rayquaza than Haxorus. Both have similar physical prowess. Haxorus has the advantage in the form of Dual Chop, Taunt and pure Dragon typing while lacks the hability to use special attacks so it's fair. Therefore I demand Rayquaza in OU. This makes way much more sense than... Lugia.

I hope this is a joke, I really do. The Swords Dance set alone could break OU in half, let's not even go into the mixed set. Hell, even DD, which is probably the easiest to check, would be way too much to expect OU to handle. There's a reason why I said nominating Ray for testing was ridiculous, and imo it's even less likely that Ray would fit in than Lugia. You're not even giving any attempt at a decent argument here. "Oh Haxorus only has 3 less base Attack, it'll be fine."

 

[IcyMan28]

^I'm pretty sure that was just an example about how an argument can be made for any Uber, particularly because there was a Sigilyph vs Lugia mention made.

 

[mien]

I'm pretty sure that was just an example about how an argument can be made for any Uber, particularly because there was a Sigilyph vs Lugia mention made.

I was talking about Sygilyph because someone originally said Lugia was clearly uber because it can beat Choice Band Tyranitar 1 on 1 despite the typing advantage. You're really bringing this one out of context here.

Don't sweat it, it's not that big of a deal lol.

It's a pretty big deal for me, i simply can't stand it when people are convinced something is 'obviously' overpowered without any testing. Even though there is some evidence that it may not be the case. Time has proven several times some of these so called obviously overpowered pokemon aren't as overpowered as they originally seem

One thing i remember well from your long post however is the way your defensive Lugia was apparently able to set up screens/phaze/poison/roost and defeat Garchomp with Ice beam.

 

[IcyMan28]

I was talking about Sygilyph because someone originally said Lugia was clearly uber because it can beat Choice Band Tyranitar 1 on 1 despite the typing advantage. You're really bringing this one out of context here.

I wasn't really saying anything about it, actually, just noting what he was implying.

It's a pretty big deal for me, i simply can't stand it when people are convinced something is 'obviously' overpowered without any testing. Even though there is some evidence that it may not be the case. Time has proven several times that these so called obviously overpowered pokemon aren't as overpowered as they originally seem

By this logic, though, you'd be willing to test Kyogre as it is "obviously overpowered without any testing," yet most of us concede this while acknowledging Gastrodon and Quagsire as counters.

The "obviously overpowered" stuff was Deoxys-A, Darkrai, and Mew. Deoxys-A (and normal forme) proved too strong, so our instincts were correct. Darkrai was too strong, so we were correct. Skymin was banned because people don't like being flinched.

Mew is the only case so far where the general consensus was wrong, and even then the better players realized that the versatility isn't everything when it is outclassed at the large majority of what it can do. Several others and I argued this point, and it dropped to UU because of it.

The evidence to the contrary that you've provided is, in my opinion, nothing special. You can expect that in a game of so many options, there will be at least 2-3 ways to deal with what's out there. Gastrodon for Kyogre, Victini for Mewtwo, etc. It just so happens that most of the ways to deal with Lugia are in OU. Still, the pros to using Lugia outweigh the cons by so much that it would dominate and break the metagame.

One thing i remember well from your long post however is the way your defensive Lugia was apparently able to set up screens/phaze/poison/roost and defeat Garchomp with Ice beam.

I may have gotten carried away with that one, I'll comb through it to see if I made any other egregious errors. Regardless, Reflect / Roost / WW / Ice Beam beats Garchomp.

EDIT: Did a Command + F of that long post and the only place I mentioned Lugia using all of that was against Rotom-W and Jellicent, so I'll recant those two. After reading it over, I utilized the Phaze/Reflect/Roost/Ice Beam set as my assumption in nearly all cases but those.

 

[Nonary Game]

Okay, some of these nominations are making me facepalm entirely. Swift Swim?! What the fuck? No one bitched about it back in Generation IV, and now it's suddenly broken in some people's eyes. It's kinda like how Sand Stream was there and no one really complained about it. I don't get half these nominations anymore. I just don't.

And for those nominating ubers, have you even touched that tier, even in the last gen? They're uber because they just. Don't. Die. Ever. Lugia would easily wall most of the metagame with minimal investment, and 110 Base Speed is a plus here.

 

[Rosey Oak]

@JT Swift

No one (I hope) is judging you for voicing your opinion on a certain matter/topic. Indeed if you feel strongly about something you should have the chance to state your points and argument, however you have done both and it appears that no one (aside from one or two people) supports your opinion that Lugia would be a suitable candidate for OU.

I was going to write a proper argument on the matter, but it seems the discussion has dropped now...

As for Manaphy, you have succeeded in gaining a lot of support and most of us agree that it should be given the chance to be tested out in OU if drizzle (hopefully) gets banned. =)

Anyway, since the chat is dying at the moment, I just like to ask is there anything we haven’t discussed thoroughly yet that someone wants banned.

 

[Paradoxus]

OK, so here is a wrap up of what I think is good.

Blaziken: No Ban. When I played before it had been banned it wasn't very overwhelming, as I had priority on every team. Also, as long you don't let it get over +2 it is pretty easy to wall, the only trouble in the metagame it makes is Flare Blitzing the #1 Pokemon to death.

Drizzle: Again, No Ban. Drizzle is way to overcentralizing, with new weather abusers like Excadrill, Sawsbuck, and Stoutland coming to the table this gen Rain is too overcentralizing to lose, as the the aforementioned threats will come to power.

Manaphy: Im kind of 50/50 on this one. It depends on if Drizzle gets banned. If it doesn't get banned, it will be way to overpowered. If it does get banned, I'm not sure as it can get to 700+ SAtk in one turn, and with base 100 stats across the board, lack of drizzle to make a Thunder hit him, it will be a little to overpowering. For now, I will go with ban.

 

[Glen ^^]

^I'm pretty sure that was just an example about how an argument can be made for any Uber, particularly because there was a Sigilyph vs Lugia mention made.

Yes, you got my point.


In my opinion we have more urgent priorities than blindly testing top tier legendaries in OU.

 

[IcyMan28]

Just a few hours until nominations close. From the looks of it Drizzle, Garchomp, and possibly Shell Smash will make it through, and of course Latios and Deoxys-S since last round (neither of which I agree with).

I'm hoping all but Drizzle stay.

EDIT: Nearly every nomination is seeking to ban Thundurus. I wouldn't be surprised to see it go as well.

 

[Rosey Oak]

Just a few hours until nominations close. From the looks of it Drizzle, Garchomp, and possibly Shell Smash will make it through, and of course Latios and Deoxys-S since last round (neither of which I agree with).

I'm hoping all but Drizzle stay.

O.O it closes that soon!! I wasn't actually aware of the deadline lol.

Yes I'm really hoping Drizzle (and Drought) gets the boot. I'd also like to see Garchomp leave and it looks to very likely at the moment.

*fingers crossed*

 

[Nkululeko]

O.O it closes that soon!! I wasn't actually aware of the deadline lol.

Yes I'm really hoping Drizzle (and Drought) gets the boot. I'd also like to see Garchomp leave and it looks to very likely at the moment.

*fingers crossed*

I've been waitin for DrizzleToed to go for awhile now. Drought needs to go too but for now I'm pullin' for Thundurus to stay. No counters, maybe, but it still has enough healthy checks esp in Sand/Sun. Without Drizzle we can finally repeal the Aldaron Proposal and we can free Manaphy(hopefully).

On a side note, Garchomp needs to go. Consistently getting results from fishing for hax is retarded coming from base 102 speed and it's bulk. Don't let me down voters.

 

[alphatron]

If sun gets banned, then every post I make will be about how we should bring down Ho-oh for testing in OU.

I don't really want to see anything banned at the moment, since I don't think anything currently in the metagame is overpowering. HaxChomp isn't fun to play against though, but that's just me. Fighting against moody was more fun.

 

[Blackdragonking]

I guess I won't be too bothered about the fate of weather, but I don't think I'd mind a clear skies meta. I'm worried it's going to open a big can of worms if the weathers are thrown out of balance, though, hopefully that won't happen.

I'd like to see Garchomp go, simply because people's endless bitching about him has killed any affection I once held for the creature; I don't want him around anymore, and the variety of stupid bans that would be required to keep him simply aren't worth the effort.

Thunderus, I think deserves another chance if Drizzle goes, Manaphy too, but drizzle might be overpowering for both of them. It certainly is for Manaphy; we can't have him and DrizzleToed at the same time.

Would be more than happy to see an end to Latios and Deoxys-S, since frankly both of those things irk me just by existing; I don't think they belong in OU, I've never thought they belonged in OU, and I would be quite pleased to see them out of OU.

 

[cco]

Just to keep discussion going strong, no hostile intentions towards the poster

Blaziken: No Ban. When I played before it had been banned it wasn't very overwhelming, as I had priority on every team. Also, as long you don't let it get over +2 it is pretty easy to wall, the only trouble in the metagame it makes is Flare Blitzing the #1 Pokemon to death.

Agreed, Blaziken may be a problem for most of the meta, but it really just takes a bulky poke with EQ to put it down. But as it looks like Drizzle is going to disappear, it might become broken without Rain to keep it down.

Drizzle: Again, No Ban. Drizzle is way to overcentralizing, with new weather abusers like Excadrill, Sawsbuck, and Stoutland coming to the table this gen Rain is too overcentralizing to lose, as the the aforementioned threats will come to power.

Arguing that Rain's Centralization is so good that it shouldn't be bad is a rather paltry argument. In my opinion Drizzle isn't QUITE broken, but I have yet to get voting Reqs so I don't really know what the tippy-top of the ladder looks like. Without swift swim, the style is checked by a number of relatively popular threats (Ice Beam/Fire Blast Ttar teaming up with Jellicent and a scarfed dragon is a very nice anti Rain core)

Manaphy: Im kind of 50/50 on this one. It depends on if Drizzle gets banned. If it doesn't get banned, it will be way to overpowered. If it does get banned, I'm not sure as it can get to 700+ SAtk in one turn, and with base 100 stats across the board, lack of drizzle to make a Thunder hit him, it will be a little to overpowering. For now, I will go with ban.

As JSwift as shown, without HydroRest Manaphy has a ton of trouble with the meta, sure you can run Rain Dance, but then you're running Rain Dance right? I think that between opposing auto-weather and Ferrothorn, Manaphy deserves a test.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

I love how we all ignored the two posts centered on previous bans.

People, stop beating the dead horse. Its already been decided that if something gets banned its staying that way for a long, long time. it doesnt matter if you dont agree with Blazekin or Swift Swim, they're gone, and wont be coming back.


EDIT: Damn, cco ninja (also damn no auto-refresh)