np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

[AsynchronousIO]

Uh with 154 SpD Lugia won't be going down to some Thunder/Shadow ball that easily - especially with investment. Even worse if it already has a CM under its belt - could easily OHKO Gengar and Starmie just fragile Thundurus would be a different story but in the end would be better off doing a Thunderwave if Lugia isn't behind some sub before it gets KOed all three pokemon are pretty frail so that 90 SpA will hurt.

As pointed out earlier though SubDisable Gengar does beat Lugia. Starmie also comes out on top, one-on-one. But, yeah, there aren't many things that can reliably kill Lugia in OU. The best special attackers to handle him are Chandelure, NP Mismagius and Gengar, and only Gengar outspeeds. Physical attackers... CBTar, who will die horribly to Toxic afterwards. That's really it.

@Wilson Antley: I'm surprised the debate started in the first place. Lugia? Really? REALLY?!?!?!??!?!?!?!

 

[Mario With Lasers]

So guys, help me here.

| 102 | Smeargle | 158 | 0.8700 |
| 201 | Huntail | 46 | 0.2533 |
| 208 | Gorebyss | 41 | 0.2258 |
| 74 | Total | 245 | 1.3491 |

| 87 | Gorebyss | 8593 | 1.5660 |
| 89 | Smeargle | 7651 | 1.3944 |
| 231 | Huntail | 755 | 0.1376 |
| 58 | Total | 16999 | 3.0980 |

| 57 | Gorebyss | 4546 | 3.2804 |
| 80 | Smeargle | 2728 | 1.9685 |
| 150 | Huntail | 872 | 0.6292 |
| 30 | Total | 8146 | 5.8781 |

[Every UU, OU and Uber]
[lol no Smashpasser banned]

People want to ban (or even "emergency ban") of UU and OU something which usage is so low that it got demoted to this gen's equivalent of DPPt NU. I know that "the top of the ladder" may use Smashpassing more than the average player, but why do we want to ban something that's not even considered Standard in any of the metagames it's allowed?

EDIT-- Hmm ok actually the three of them have enough usage to be Standard in UU...

 

[SlimMan]

Manaphy can be a new SleepTalk Suicune with 15 less in defenses +10 in spa, +15 in speed and the opportunity to sweep without luck factor (costing a turn for casting rain dance).

Sounds good and interessing.

The reason CroCune works at all is that it's so damn physically bulky. Those 15 Def points would make a huge difference in survivability. The extra Speed won't make a difference because you're not investing in Speed at all anyway. The extra Sp Atk won't make a difference because the point is to get many boosts over time, meaning that you won't need more power.

CroPhy would be an inferior CroCune.



Also: what Mario With Lasers said ^^^.

 

[Ewil]

Sorry, i'm not very good with the calcs, thanks for the polish :D

 

[November Blue]

@JT Swift - Lugia

After testing out Lugia in a short trial run (25 battles) with a couple of friends for fun, I've come to the conclusion that I would not like to see this Pokemon in OU.

Uh... Where is the rest of your post?

Seriously, what the fuck? I know that you have the anti lugia majority on your side, but if you're going to test lugia and make up your mind, TELL US WHY!!

Make a case and convince me, mien and the few deluded idiots that disagree with you.

The community attitude towards this entire lugia thing is extremely disappointing to me. Mien posted a good proposal. Concise, well thought out, conducive of further discussion...

And all you do is shoot it down with sarcasm and ridicule. Most of you didn't even post reasonable arguments. Everyone is chomping at the bit to nominate and ban the stuff that annoys them the most with little to no consideration of what they're actually suggesting, but as soon as someone wants to bring one of the big bad ubers down for a temporary test period they get chased out of dragonspiral tower with pitchforks and torches.

I don't understand the hostility. Why isn't anyone saying stuff like "Lugia in OU? Hmm, you made some good points, I could see it working. I'm interested in what would come of this, and how the metagame could change, what effects lugia would have and which new pokemon could rise in usage to counter it."

If it isn't good in Uber, that doesn't mean it is allowed in OU. With a 4x resistance to Fighting, the most common type in the tier, with its BST as 390, and I only used it's defenses. Also, it speed ties with Gengar, and outspeeds everyone under a base 110 Speed Stat. People here are thinking that its bad in Uber, but think of the impact it will have on OU. Skarmory will be completely outclassed, and will go down to OU. That means a domino effect will be in order and then most Physical attackers in UU will go down to RU. Regardless of it's typing, Lugia has amazing stats, Flying-Type STAB, CM, 154 SDef. Another thing is that Blissey will be overpowered, as now it will be something like Lugey (Lugia + Blissey). The worst part is, that most of the moves that will to super-effective damage to him will do nothing, as Ghost- and Dark- type moves are mostly special attackers. Plus, if Drizzle gets banned, it doesn't need to worry about Thunder, so how would Lugia be OU material, as it is waaaaaaay to overpowered in that sense, even if it is "horrible" in Uber. Even in Uber it is still good, as not many moves will OHKO it.

This is supposed to be an anti lugia argument? This is just a random mess of irrelevant facts. Skarmory isn't outclassed by lugia at all. It has a higher number of resistances, taunt, stealth rock, spikes and sturdy. Skarm is unique and will never be outclassed unless a new, better steel/flying poke is created.

Also, how is being able to take hits a broken attribute? Lots of things can take hits really well. Unlike lugia, lots of things can take hits well while setting up hazards. Hurdy hurr!

Statistics:

Manaphy + Tailglow + LO Timid Nature:

Celebi Calm Max HP/Sp.def – Icebeam:
1166 Atk vs 328 Def & 404 HP (95 Base Power): 484 - 570 (119.80% - 141.09%)

Brongzong Careful Max Hp/Sp.def – Surf:
1166 Atk vs 364 Def & 338 HP (95 Base Power): 327 - 385 (96.75% - 113.91%)

Jellicent Calm Max HP/Sp.def – HP Electric:
1166 Atk vs 339 Def & 404 HP (70 Base Power): 346 - 408 (85.64% - 100.99%)

Tentacruel Calm Max Hp/Sp.def – HP Electric:
1166 Atk vs 372 Def & 361 HP (70 Base Power): 316 - 372 (87.53% - 103.05%)

Deoxys–D Calm Max Hp/Sp.def – Surf:
1166 Atk vs 460 Def & 304 HP (95 Base Power): 259 - 306 (85.20% - 100.66%).

These calcs seem incredibly biased. I'm pretty sure life orb is calced separate from the attacking stat 897 + life orb, not 1166. I did the clacs myself though, and they look accurate.

+3 Timid LO manaphy will be used for all calcs:

Ice Beam on 252 HP / 248 +SpDef Ferrothorn: 182 - 215 out of 352 HP

Surf on 252 HP / 252 +SpDef Heatran: OHKO (Yeah, not a good idea...)

Surf on 252 HP / 252 +Spdef Tyranitar: OHKO (Surprising. 404 minimum damage o_O)

Ice Beam on 252 HP / 252 +Spdef Latias: 336 - 396 out of 364 HP

Grass Knot (20 base power) on 252 HP 0 SpDef Rotom-W: 112 - 134 out of 304 HP (much better!)

Surf on 252 HP 0 SpDef Rotom-W: 198 - 234 out of 304 HP

Surf on 252 HP / 252 +SpDef Cresselia: 252 - 297 out of 444 HP

Surf on 252 HP / 0 SpDef +1 SpDef Reuniclus: 321 - 378 out of 424 HP

Surf on 252 HP / 252 +Spdef Jirachi: 301 - 355 out of 404 HP

Grass Knot (100 base power) on 252 HP / 252 +Spdef Jellicent: OHKO

Grass Knot (120 base power) on 252 HP / 0 SpDef Gyarados: 354 - 417 out of 394 HP

Grass Knot (60 base power) on 252 HP / 0 SpDef Vaporeon: 370 - 436 out of 464 HP

Surf on 252 HP / 0 SpDef Blissey: 322 - 381 out of 714 HP

Surf on 252 HP / 0 SpDef Eviolite Chansey: 268 - 316 out of 704 HP

Surf on 252 HP / 252 +SpDef Scrafty: 276 - 325 out of 334 HP

Grass Knot (80 base power) on 252 HP / 252 +SpDef Tentacruel: 149 - 176 out of 364 HP

Surf on 252 HP / 252 +SpDef Deoxys-D: 216 - 255 out of 304 HP

Ice Beam on 252 HP / 252 +SpDef Virizion: 340 - 400 out of 386 HP

Surf on 252 HP / 252 +SpDef Bronzong: 271 - 321 out of 338 HP

Surf on 252 HP / 252 +SpDef Porygon2: 313 - 370 out of 374 HP

Surf on 252 HP / 252 +SpDef Eviolite Porygon2: 210 - 247 out of 374 HP

Surf on 252 HP / 252 +SpDef Zapdos: 322 - 381 out of 384 HP

Ice Beam on 252 HP / 252 +SpDef Zapdos: OHKO

Surf on 252 HP / 252 +SpDef Snorlax: 283 - 334 out of 524 HP

-------------------------------

Lugia now:

Thundurus 252 SpA +2 Life Orb Thunderbolt on 252 HP / 252 +SpDef Lugia: 414 - 488 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Cloyster 252 +Atk +2 Icicle Spear on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: OHKO

Cloyster 252 Atk +2 Icicle Spear on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: 396 - 468 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Cloyster 252 Atk +2 Life Orb Icicle Spear on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: OHKO

Manaphy 252 SpA +3 Life Orb Ice Beam on 252 HP / 252 +SpDef Lugia: 296 - 350 out of 416 HP

Manaphy 252 SpA +3 Life Orb Ice Beam on 252 HP / 0 SpDef Lugia: OHKO

Victini 252 +Atk Choice Band V-Create on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: 241 - 285 out of 416 HP

Victini 252 +Atk Choice Band V-Create under sun on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: 361 - 426 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Victini 252 +Atk Choice Band V-Create on 252 HP / 0 Def Lugia: 322 - 379 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Darmanitan 252 +Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Flare Blitz under sun on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: 397 - 468 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Darmanitan 252 +Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Flare Blitz on 252 HP / 0 Def Lugia: 354 - 417 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Tyranitar 252 +Atk Choice Band Crunch on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: 266 - 314 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Tyranitar 252 +Atk Choice Band Stone Edge on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: 330 - 390 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Tyranitar 252 +Atk Choice Band Crunch on 252 HP / 0 Def Lugia: 354 - 416 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Tyranitar 252 +Atk Choice Band Stone Edge on 252 HP / 0 Def Lugia: OHKO

Staraptor 252 +Atk Choice Band Reckless Brave Bird on 252 HP / 0 Def Lugia: 292 - 345 out of 416 HP

Kyurem 252 +SpA Specs Blizzard on 252 HP / 252 +SpDef Lugia: OHKO with hail

Kyurem 252 +SpA Specs Ice Beam on 252 HP / 252 +SpDef Lugia: 270 - 320 out of 416 HP

Haxorus 252 +Atk +2 Life Orb Outrage on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: 367 - 433 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Excadrill 252 +Atk +2 Life Orb Rock Slide on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: 288 - 340 out of 416 HP

Excadrill 252 +Atk +2 Life Orb Rock Slide on 252 HP / 0 Def Lugia: 384 - 452 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Landorus 252 Atk +2 Life Orb Sand Force Stone Edge on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: OHKO

I'm sorry that the calcs aren't in % format, but I'm unsure of how to convert them accurately. Keep in mind that Lugia will most likely switch into these attacks, stealth rock may be up, and he may be outsped next turn.

 

[BurningMan]

Lugia will switch in none of these attacks, because these are pretty much the only things that can take it down.
You just proved that you need boosted attacks to come even close to a Ko with Rocks, how does that help the meta game? With proper support lugia is almost unkillable unless you use Band Tar with Pursuit.

Do you even play ubers, because i highly doubt it.

 

[alexwolf]

Lugia now:

Thundurus 252 SpA +2 Life Orb Thunderbolt on 252 HP / 252 +SpDef Lugia: 414 - 488 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Cloyster 252 +Atk +2 Icicle Spear on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: OHKO

Cloyster 252 Atk +2 Icicle Spear on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: 396 - 468 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Cloyster 252 Atk +2 Life Orb Icicle Spear on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: OHKO

Manaphy 252 SpA +3 Life Orb Ice Beam on 252 HP / 252 +SpDef Lugia: 296 - 350 out of 416 HP

Manaphy 252 SpA +3 Life Orb Ice Beam on 252 HP / 0 SpDef Lugia: OHKO

Victini 252 +Atk Choice Band V-Create on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: 241 - 285 out of 416 HP

Victini 252 +Atk Choice Band V-Create under sun on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: 361 - 426 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Victini 252 +Atk Choice Band V-Create on 252 HP / 0 Def Lugia: 322 - 379 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Darmanitan 252 +Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Flare Blitz under sun on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: 397 - 468 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Darmanitan 252 +Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Flare Blitz on 252 HP / 0 Def Lugia: 354 - 417 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Tyranitar 252 +Atk Choice Band Crunch on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: 266 - 314 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Tyranitar 252 +Atk Choice Band Stone Edge on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: 330 - 390 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Tyranitar 252 +Atk Choice Band Crunch on 252 HP / 0 Def Lugia: 354 - 416 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Tyranitar 252 +Atk Choice Band Stone Edge on 252 HP / 0 Def Lugia: OHKO

Staraptor 252 +Atk Choice Band Reckless Brave Bird on 252 HP / 0 Def Lugia: 292 - 345 out of 416 HP

Kyurem 252 +SpA Specs Blizzard on 252 HP / 252 +SpDef Lugia: OHKO with hail

Kyurem 252 +SpA Specs Ice Beam on 252 HP / 252 +SpDef Lugia: 270 - 320 out of 416 HP

Haxorus 252 +Atk +2 Life Orb Outrage on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: 367 - 433 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Excadrill 252 +Atk +2 Life Orb Rock Slide on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: 288 - 340 out of 416 HP

Excadrill 252 +Atk +2 Life Orb Rock Slide on 252 HP / 0 Def Lugia: 384 - 452 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Landorus 252 Atk +2 Life Orb Sand Force Stone Edge on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: OHKO

I'm sorry that the calcs aren't in % format, but I'm unsure of how to convert them accurately. Keep in mind that Lugia will most likely switch into these attacks, stealth rock may be up, and he may be outsped next turn.

why on earth would lugia be switching in thundurus,cb victini and darmanitan,kyurem,cloyster,manaphy and tyranitar???
as they have already told you stop showing us how stab se powerful moves with a choice item can kill lugia....
this is getting ridiculous...!
the cm set is supposed to get in something that can't hurt it(which means many many pokes)and then procceed to become a ridiculous bulky sweeper.
the tank set is supposed to come in on threats it can wall and then phaze them out or pp and toxic stall them...
so stop making every circumstance to favour you...
and as have been also said many times before,lugia in ou is ridiculous 'cause of its amazing walling capabilites and speed.
there have been several posts proving you how absurd lugia in ou will be.
yet you come and post:'show me some good arguements as to why lugia is so overpowered instead of all these flaming bs...!
i know that many people here don't take you seriously but you don't have to disrespect the people that do take you seriosuly...
so instead of bitching around go and read the arguements that people have presented to you and then you maybe could understand why lugia in ou is so absurd...!

and as i have said before the fact that mien has put some thought and effort to make a summary of why lugia should come down to ou,doesn't mean that it should...it takes a lot more effort to convince the community that such a beast would fit in ou seriously...
writing a wall of text is not telling much as i can do the same for many ubers and make them seem ou worthy...

@ the Manaphy thing;
Manaphy w/o Drizzle is honestly not even as good as Mew or any other of our little 100's.

i highly doubt this...

As a boosting sweeper, Manaphy can go to +3, and Mew can only go to +2. However, Manaphy has to resort to things like Energy Ball and Shadow Ball for coverage, while Mew can use things like Fire Blast, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Aura Sphere. etc; meaning that Mew's coverage moves will often about as strong even when Manaphy has one more boost than Mew does.

do you know what an extra +1 means???it means that a manaphy has stab on every move that it uses and a double stab on water moves...
also water stab is 100 times better than psychic stab so i think that you get how ridiculous this staement is...
the only pro of mew is that it can batton pass his boosts to another poke...
if mew was a better sweeper than manaphy in a rainless background then it would be much more used than now...so mew being in uu doesn't exactly help your reasoning that mew is a better sweeper than manaphy...

They both have CM, but Mew can heal itself with Roost to get more CM's in. For Manaphy to heal itself, it needs 2 moveslots (RD and Rest), leaving it unable to get as good coverage. Or Manaphy can just not heal itself, but then it lacks an ability which Mew has.

they are very different in that matter...mew has better movepool but manphy has better typing...so it really depends.but considering that manphy's best set outside drizzle is the tail glow set this is completely irrelevant!

And let's face it, Manaphy probably wouldn't run a Defensive set very well. It just doesn't have the movepool for it.
Manaphy may have better typing than Mew, but Jirachi has arguably better typing than Manaphy. Jirachi can support the team more, with Wish and paralysis support.

this is true!mew runs a much better defensive set!
it is also true that jirachi's typing is better for a defensive role but not for an offensive...

I want someone to show me evidence (or very good reasoning) of why Manaphy would possibly even be close to being too strong in a Drizzle-less OU.

i fully agree that if drizzle gets banned then manaphy deserves a proper test because i think it has enough counters and checks.it would still be a top tier threat but not broken!but telling mew a better all out sweeper than manphy is ridiculous!
also since i don't think that there is any chance for drizzle to get banned,this means that manaphy more likely won't be seeing the lights of ou soon...!

 

[alphatron]

The reason CroCune works at all is that it's so damn physically bulky. Those 15 Def points would make a huge difference in survivability. The extra Speed won't make a difference because you're not investing in Speed at all anyway. The extra Sp Atk won't make a difference because the point is to get many boosts over time, meaning that you won't need more power.

CroPhy would be an inferior CroCune.



Also: what Mario With Lasers said ^^^.

In fourth gen, I was told that the reason Manaphy was OU is that it would be a basically superior Crocune without the need for Sleep Talk. This was in fourth gen, where rain was a huge joke in the standard metagame. And in round 2, when Manaphy was banned, most of the nominations talked about bulky CM Manaphy being a monster and that Tail Glow Manaphy wasn't all that big of a deal.

 

[Glen ^^]

In fourth gen, I was told that the reason Manaphy was OU is that it would be a basically superior Crocune without the need for Sleep Talk. This was in fourth gen, where rain was a huge joke in the standard metagame. And in round 2, when Manaphy was banned, most of the nominations talked about bulky CM Manaphy being a monster and that Tail Glow Manaphy wasn't all that big of a deal.

In fourth gen however there wasn't stuff like Excadrill, Terrakion and Darmamitan do worry about. Those extra 15 points makes the difference between getting 3HKOed and 2HKOed.

 

[Blackdragonking]

And all you do is shoot it down with sarcasm and ridicule. Most of you didn't even post reasonable arguments. Everyone is chomping at the bit to nominate and ban the stuff that annoys them the most with little to no consideration of what they're actually suggesting, but as soon as someone wants to bring one of the big bad ubers down for a temporary test period they get chased out of dragonspiral tower with pitchforks and torches.

I don't understand the hostility. Why isn't anyone saying stuff like "Lugia in OU? Hmm, you made some good points, I could see it working. I'm interested in what would come of this, and how the metagame could change, what effects lugia would have and which new pokemon could rise in usage to counter it."

I gather the hostility is because the people that didn't side with the proposal all thought it was a terrible idea and had no desire to play in a meta with one of the best walls in Ubers available for OU play. People were similarly unafraid to point out that trying to unban Giratina was a bad idea.

I've made my point about why I think unbanning Lugia would not be helpful to the metagame, and other people have made even better points. I pointed out in more than one post that this is exacerbating the power creep of OU when people are already complaining about OU being so overpowered losing one pokemon can sometimes cost you the entire match, and that bringing Lugia down is pandering so strongly to Tyranitar that nothing is EVER going to overtake it in usage statistics while Lugia is in the game because people keep trying to give it a new Uber it can fight despite there being few other reliable rock or dark attackers in the metagme. I don't like the idea of a meta where any smart player can wall another forever before eventually sweeping them because the other player didn't bring a Tyranitar along.

Besides Tyranitar, the only OU Dark type at the moment is Scrafty, who can't switch in on Lugia at all, since Aeroblast takes him out in two hits if he's running his specially defensive Bulk Up set and in one shot if he's running his Dragon Dance set. Hell, with three layers of Spikes, Aeroblast OHKOs Scrafty most of the time.

Ghost types? Yeah, right. If Lugia gets even a single Calm Mind off, there's not a whole hell of a lot Gengar can do about it. Starmie similarly is going to have a hard time doing a lot of damage without rain support for some super-powerful Hydro Pumps and Thunders if Lugia CM'd on the switch-in, and Aeroblast is a powerful neutral hit that crits fairly often; give it some coverage with Earth Power and Lugia is very, very dangerous except to things like Specially Bulky Tyranitar and Specially Bulky Scizor, which have already become flagship sets because of the bright idea to keep Latios OU this long. It's not a scenario I can say I'm fond of, so no, I'm not interested in what Lugia would be like in OU, and not just because I hate legendaries. It seems the sentiment is fairly common here, which is why the response seems so hostile; people aren't going to say "Well, that's interesting, let's give it a chance" if the proposal is something that sounds like it is going to create another threat big enough to suck all the fun out of teambuilding.

Lugia now:

Thundurus 252 SpA +2 Life Orb Thunderbolt on 252 HP / 252 +SpDef Lugia: 414 - 488 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Cloyster 252 +Atk +2 Icicle Spear on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: OHKO

Cloyster 252 Atk +2 Icicle Spear on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: 396 - 468 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Cloyster 252 Atk +2 Life Orb Icicle Spear on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: OHKO

Manaphy 252 SpA +3 Life Orb Ice Beam on 252 HP / 252 +SpDef Lugia: 296 - 350 out of 416 HP

Manaphy 252 SpA +3 Life Orb Ice Beam on 252 HP / 0 SpDef Lugia: OHKO

Victini 252 +Atk Choice Band V-Create on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: 241 - 285 out of 416 HP

Victini 252 +Atk Choice Band V-Create under sun on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: 361 - 426 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Victini 252 +Atk Choice Band V-Create on 252 HP / 0 Def Lugia: 322 - 379 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Darmanitan 252 +Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Flare Blitz under sun on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: 397 - 468 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Darmanitan 252 +Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Flare Blitz on 252 HP / 0 Def Lugia: 354 - 417 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Tyranitar 252 +Atk Choice Band Crunch on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: 266 - 314 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Tyranitar 252 +Atk Choice Band Stone Edge on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: 330 - 390 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Tyranitar 252 +Atk Choice Band Crunch on 252 HP / 0 Def Lugia: 354 - 416 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Tyranitar 252 +Atk Choice Band Stone Edge on 252 HP / 0 Def Lugia: OHKO

Staraptor 252 +Atk Choice Band Reckless Brave Bird on 252 HP / 0 Def Lugia: 292 - 345 out of 416 HP

Kyurem 252 +SpA Specs Blizzard on 252 HP / 252 +SpDef Lugia: OHKO with hail

Kyurem 252 +SpA Specs Ice Beam on 252 HP / 252 +SpDef Lugia: 270 - 320 out of 416 HP

Haxorus 252 +Atk +2 Life Orb Outrage on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: 367 - 433 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Excadrill 252 +Atk +2 Life Orb Rock Slide on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: 288 - 340 out of 416 HP

Excadrill 252 +Atk +2 Life Orb Rock Slide on 252 HP / 0 Def Lugia: 384 - 452 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Landorus 252 Atk +2 Life Orb Sand Force Stone Edge on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: OHKO

I'm sorry that the calcs aren't in % format, but I'm unsure of how to convert them accurately. Keep in mind that Lugia will most likely switch into these attacks, stealth rock may be up, and he may be outsped next turn.

...What? Why would Lugia switch in on ANY of those? He wouldn't stay in on any of those! That would be relying on your opponent being dumb enough to switch a wall in against wallbreakers and pokemon that hit it super-effectively! Come ON, you don't seriously think ANYONE's switching Lugia in on TYRANITAR, do you? Nobody's going to try and wall Haxorus if he got a Swords Dance off (I'm assuming you're calculating +2 with his wall-breaker SD set instead of two dragon dances, in which case there's not a whole lot anyone can do anymore), the only safe solution once Haxorus has doubled its already insane attack power is to revenge-kill it, not try to wall it.

Lugia's sets work because it can come in on fairly common attacks that do next to nothing to it, like a psychic attack aimed at Toxicroak or something, or an Earthquake, or the fighting moves it x4 resists. Assuming it will ever switch in on something it's not going to wall or force out is assuming that Lugia will be balanced because people make enormous strategic blunders with it. The Lugia player is infinitely more likely to switch in on the likes of Virizion and Breloom, who sh*t themselves in terror of it, than he is to switch in on various pokemon that are either already set up or can hit Lugia absurdly hard right off the bat.

It's like saying someone would switch in Charizard on Aggron with Stealth Rocks up because Aggron might go for an Earthquake. It's just not very likely that these calcs will come into play with a competent handler for Lugia.

 

[November Blue]

why on earth would lugia be switching in thundurus,cb victini and darmanitan,kyurem,cloyster,manaphy and tyranitar???

Because he's a wall?

as they have already told you stop showing us how stab se powerful moves with a choice item can kill lugia....
this is getting ridiculous...!

The point is that lugia can be killed by strong super effective hits when it runs the appropriate max/max bulky spread. The majority of sets cited in this thread are running max speed, meaning that lugia is easily killed by any strong attack, especially with rocks up. Lugia is not unkillable at all.

the cm set is supposed to get in something that can't hurt it(which means many many pokes)and then procceed to become a ridiculous bulky sweeper.
the tank set is supposed to come in on threats it can wall and then phaze them out or pp and toxic stall them...
so stop making every circumstance to favour you...

Reuniclus, suicune, virizion, slowbro, latias, sigilyph, the list goes on. Why would you choose lugia over any of these?

and as have been also said many times before,lugia in ou is ridiculous 'cause of its amazing walling capabilites and speed.
there have been several posts proving you how absurd lugia in ou will be.
yet you come and post:'show me some good arguements as to why lugia is so overpowered instead of all these flaming bs...!

That's your opinion. It doesn't seem to have much foundation to me, but you're entitled to it, just as I am mine. Proving? "It's fast, super bulky and has calm mind plus I don't like it" isn't proving anything.

i know that many people here don't take you seriously but you don't have to disrespect the people that do take you seriosuly...
so instead of bitching around go and read the arguements that people have presented to you and then you maybe could understand why lugia in ou is so absurd...!

Wait, what? Could you explain this please?

and as i have said before the fact that mien has put some thought and effort to make a summary of why lugia should come down to ou,doesn't mean that it should...it takes a lot more effort to convince the community that such a beast would fit in ou seriously...

Yeah, I can attest to that...

I had a look through the last 4 pages of this thread, and I didn't really see any good arguments against lugia. His noteworthy sets were mentioned, but no real comparisons, no thorough damage calcs...

My point is this: If we let lugia down, there is every possibility that it will be top OU. A great wall on par with stuff like ferrothorn and slowbro, and a calm minder to rival overcoat reuniclus. At this point, nobody can prove that it will be too much for OU, and we have no real way of discerning this without testing it. The top 10 contains some extremely good pokemon, and I posit that lugia could be one of them. Extremely good, but not overpowering or overcentralizing to the point of warranting a ban.

It is weak to every status condition and form of residual damage except spikes and toxic spikes, all of which can jeopardize it's bulk. You're telling me to stop creating favourable conditions for myself alexwolf? Why does everyone assume that lugia will be at 100% all the time and running the correct set to counter everything? What if cloyster or thundurus are sweeping? Lugia can't stop either. What if it switched into SR, switched out again and is now going to be at 50% next switchin? What if it gets poisoned? Lugia is not reuniclus.

 

[Blackdragonking]

Why would Lugia be needed to stop a Cloyster sweep? Or Thunderus, for that matter? It has five teammates for a reason, a big one of them being so it switches in at its leisure against things that can't take advantage of its weaknesses very well.

I pointed out that Lugia switches in very well on the kind of attacks Toxicroak tends to attract, so I don't see why one would switch in Lugia on CLOYSTER of all things when a vaccuum wave from Toxicroak solves the problem neatly instead of stupidly sacrificing a pokemon on the logic of "DURRR, WALLZ".

 

[Nkululeko]

Let's keep in mind that the following calcs are against a Psychic/Flying Type pokemon. For future reference, non-super effective hits will be in BOLD.

Thundurus 252 SpA +2 Life Orb Thunderbolt on 252 HP / 252 +SpDef Lugia: 414 - 488 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Cloyster 252 +Atk +2 Icicle Spear on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: OHKO

Cloyster 252 Atk +2 Icicle Spear on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: 396 - 468 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Cloyster 252 Atk +2 Life Orb Icicle Spear on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: OHKO

Manaphy 252 SpA +3 Life Orb Ice Beam on 252 HP / 252 +SpDef Lugia: 296 - 350 out of 416 HP

Manaphy 252 SpA +3 Life Orb Ice Beam on 252 HP / 0 SpDef Lugia: OHKO

Victini 252 +Atk Choice Band V-Create on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: 241 - 285 out of 416 HP

Victini 252 +Atk Choice Band V-Create under sun on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: 361 - 426 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Victini 252 +Atk Choice Band V-Create on 252 HP / 0 Def Lugia: 322 - 379 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Darmanitan 252 +Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Flare Blitz under sun on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: 397 - 468 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Darmanitan 252 +Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Flare Blitz on 252 HP / 0 Def Lugia: 354 - 417 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Tyranitar 252 +Atk Choice Band Crunch on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: 266 - 314 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Tyranitar 252 +Atk Choice Band Stone Edge on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: 330 - 390 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Tyranitar 252 +Atk Choice Band Crunch on 252 HP / 0 Def Lugia: 354 - 416 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Tyranitar 252 +Atk Choice Band Stone Edge on 252 HP / 0 Def Lugia: OHKO

Staraptor 252 +Atk Choice Band Reckless Brave Bird on 252 HP / 0 Def Lugia: 292 - 345 out of 416 HP

Kyurem 252 +SpA Specs Blizzard on 252 HP / 252 +SpDef Lugia: OHKO with hail

Kyurem 252 +SpA Specs Ice Beam on 252 HP / 252 +SpDef Lugia: 270 - 320 out of 416 HP

Haxorus 252 +Atk +2 Life Orb Outrage on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: 367 - 433 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Excadrill 252 +Atk +2 Life Orb Rock Slide on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: 288 - 340 out of 416 HP

Excadrill 252 +Atk +2 Life Orb Rock Slide on 252 HP / 0 Def Lugia: 384 - 452 out of 416 HP (OHKO with rocks)

Landorus 252 Atk +2 Life Orb Sand Force Stone Edge on 252 HP / 252 +Def Lugia: OHKO

Keep in mind that Lugia will most likely switch into these attacks.

Lol what? Every example is boosted well enough to sweep, super effective, choiced, coming from insanely high powered moves, or some combination of the four.

These calcs seem incredibly biased.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

BurningMan said it best, you just showed us how difficult it can be to kill Lugia. I don't mean to say Lugia will never be OU and your logic is flawed, but let's be real. What isn't OHKOed by a Max Atk, positive nature,+2, life orb Haxorus Outrage(that's with STAB) besides Steel Types or a STAB, SE, Max Atk(positive nature) CBTar Crunch especially when Lugia has no Def investment. Many of your examples appear to be overspecialized counters with generous boosts and to me, just show how overcentralizing Lugia would be.

 

[Tobes]

Why do you keep going on about this, JT Swift? It should be painfully clear by now that nobody besides you and a handful of others thinks Lugia could work in OU. No matter how much you keep arguing (and poorly, I might add) that it should be OU, nobody is going to go along with it. The burden of proof is on you to prove that Lugia can be OU, and you have yet to post anything that convinces me (and obviously a bunch of others) that Lugia could fit it OU. There have been plenty of reasons presented for why it's too good, and you seem to ignore them. Did you not notice the part where Lugia can beat Choice Band Tyranitar? Please, we're asking you, just let it go. It's never going to happen, so please stop cluttering up this thread with a debate on something that isn't going to change.

Also the reason nobody takes you seriously is because you push for ridiculous shit like Rayquaza to be tested in OU.

 

[SlimMan]

Uh... Where is the rest of your post?

Seriously, what the fuck? I know that you have the anti lugia majority on your side, but if you're going to test lugia and make up your mind, TELL US WHY!!

Make a case and convince me, mien and the few deluded idiots that disagree with you.

Separating this to make the quoting less confusing.
Not much to say here, although you are right...

The community attitude towards this entire lugia thing is extremely disappointing to me. Mien posted a good proposal. Concise, well thought out, conducive of further discussion...

And all you do is shoot it down with sarcasm and ridicule. Most of you didn't even post reasonable arguments. Everyone is chomping at the bit to nominate and ban the stuff that annoys them the most with little to no consideration of what they're actually suggesting, but as soon as someone wants to bring one of the big bad ubers down for a temporary test period they get chased out of dragonspiral tower with pitchforks and torches.

I don't understand the hostility. Why isn't anyone saying stuff like "Lugia in OU? Hmm, you made some good points, I could see it working. I'm interested in what would come of this, and how the metagame could change, what effects lugia would have and which new pokemon could rise in usage to counter it."

mien did make a well-thought out proposal (but don't lie, it was not concise). It was conducive of further discussion. And it's gotten it! Look at people like IcyMan28.
JTSwift, for you to say that everyone is ignoring and mocking this is ridiculous. When people disagree with you, it does not make them "childish and hostile". Read the past few pages, and you'll see people actually debating many of the points which mien made.

And, no one is saying "you made some good points, I could see it working." because we can't see it working. o you expect us to lie about it? We believe that it would break OU and create a worse metagame (at least, I am, and I assume most anti-Lugia people are). No, we are not "interested in what would come of that", because we're sure it would be bad.

This is supposed to be an anti lugia argument? This is just a random mess of irrelevant facts. Skarmory isn't outclassed by lugia at all. It has a higher number of resistances, taunt, stealth rock, spikes and sturdy. Skarm is unique and will never be outclassed unless a new, better steel/flying poke is created.

Also, how is being able to take hits a broken attribute? Lots of things can take hits really well. Unlike lugia, lots of things can take hits well while setting up hazards. Hurdy hurr!

Separating for organizational purposes.
I agree with your logic, though.

These calcs seem incredibly biased. I'm pretty sure life orb is calced separate from the attacking stat 897 + life orb, not 1166. I did the clacs myself though, and they look accurate.

+3 Timid LO manaphy will be used for all calcs:

*calcs*

Manaphy for OU!
Only if Drizzle leaves, though (please ban Drizzle and Drought, voters).

Lugia now:

*a lot of calcs*

I'm sorry that the calcs aren't in % format, but I'm unsure of how to convert them accurately. Keep in mind that Lugia will most likely switch into these attacks, stealth rock may be up, and he may be outsped next turn.

Those are literally the strongest attacks which OU can muster (some of those Pokemon aren't even OU). What team will have more than one or maybe two of those? when a +2, STAB, super effective attack is launched, of course it will hurt even things like Lugia. If +2 STAB, SE attacks are our criteria, then we might as well not have Ubers at all!

Where are most these Pokemon even going to get +2? They're not setting up on Lugia, because Lugia is, simply put, not set-up fodder. Lugia wouldn't switch in on them, so they wouldn't have gotten +2 on the non-existant switch.

Also, I like how Lugia suddenly runs no Def EVs, in order to be OHKOed sometimes. Show us what those same calcs would be if Lugia ran max Def. Be consistent in your calcs.

Seriously, JTSwift, you just showed pretty much the only things in OU which can even touch Lugia. If you want to convince us, show us what the majority of OU can do to it (which is, nothing). Or, as IcyMan28 did, show us how many Pokemon lose to offensive Lugia, which is pretty much the list of defensive Lugia's checks (I don't say counters, because it has almost none).

 

[reachzero]

Okay, I know I've said this before elsewhere, but it WAS a while back, so I'll address it again now. The thing you need to remember about Lugia is that nothing is ever going to face it in a vacuum--we know that some Pokemon will beat it in a one-on-one situation. Where Lugia really shines, where it dominates is in the context of a (semi-)stall team. Sure, it can't take on Rotom-w directly--but Blissey can. Lugia is much more of a team player than say, Darkrai or Rayquaza. If you're trying to say that it's not going to sweep teams on its own, I would agree. I think that if you saw Lugia in OU, however, the top of the ladder would be stall vs stall at least 1/3 of the time, and good luck breaking stall with Lugia on it.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Is it really a big deal. Just test it, and if it's broken, it'll be banned.

Tbh, it would've saved all this time and wondering if we didn't autoban Lugia. We'd've decided it was broken (or not) months ago, but now we're not sure.

 

[Rosey Oak]

@JT Swift

(Side Note: My idiotic sister just deleted my whole post and I feel like screaming x.x)

Manaphy

I made an error in the original post, 1166 (including LO) was incorrect and I fixed it soon as someone pointed it out. The new total came to 971 (including LO), which I do not feel is biased due to the fact most sweepers run LO to deal more damage. Besides, what would sweeper Manaphy run instead anyway?

But,
after having some time to think about it, I've changed my mind. I support the decision to test Manaphy in OU and I guess we'll see how it goes from there...
(It didn't get a fair test the first time round anyway due to the fact that Drizzle + Hydration made it Broken.)

I had more to say about Lugia, but my sister deleted my whole post so I'll re-write it later on.

 

[November Blue]

Big Edit!! Condensing...

Aeroblast lugia does not like pressure. Aerodactyl resists both moves, and can win with a subhone set. Articuno can haze his boosts and whirlwind him away, eviolite dusclops can do a lot of things to lugia, like subsplit, toxic stalling (taunt) trick, calm mind + seismic toss... Zapdos can beat him with a subroost set. I mentioned aeroblast's low PP before. He's in danger of running out of it, especially on stall teams where he can't afford to blast willy nilly.

It's not a scenario I can say I'm fond of, so no, I'm not interested in what Lugia would be like in OU, and not just because I hate legendaries. It seems the sentiment is fairly common here, which is why the response seems so hostile; people aren't going to say "Well, that's interesting, let's give it a chance" if the proposal is something that sounds like it is going to create another threat big enough to suck all the fun out of teambuilding.

A fair point, but if lugia were OU worthy, it shouldn't be uber just because people don't like it. A lot of people have argued this point repeatedly for stuff like latios and reuniclus, both of which are OU. A lot of people are currently fine with this. You can't please everyone though.

...What? Why would Lugia switch in on ANY of those? He wouldn't stay in on any of those! That would be relying on your opponent being dumb enough to switch a wall in against wallbreakers and pokemon that hit it super-effectively! Come ON, you don't seriously think ANYONE's switching Lugia in on TYRANITAR, do you?

Nah, probably not. But wallbreakers and pokes that hit it super effectively do threaten it.

It's just not very likely that these calcs will come into play with a competent handler for Lugia.

I'm really not sure how to respond to this. Your entire post was quite good, but then you finish with this...

What can lugia do about excadrill? It can't switch into rock slide if rocks are up, and gets 2HKOed at +2. Earth power won't KO, but you can whirlwind it out (just like skarm.) Gliscor and skarmory outclass it in this situation. The rock neutrality means that they can survive a 2HKO, and gliscor can EQ for the KO.

Give me a sec to respond to everything else, and we'll let this die.

 

[alexwolf]

Because he's a wall?

a wall is not supposed to wall every poke in a tier.
lugia easily walls most of ou but you cannot expect it to counter everything...
that's why you have a team!!!

The point is that lugia can be killed by strong super effective hits when it runs the appropriate max/max bulky spread. The majority of sets cited in this thread are running max speed, meaning that lugia is easily killed by any strong attack, especially with rocks up. Lugia is not unkillable at all.

lugia will almost always be in top full health due to roost and amazing speed!
and who told you that the sets will be running max speed?
and even all of those you said were always true still lugia can only get killed by strong super effective stab attacks or insanely boosted stab attacks...
that doesn't say much if you ask me...

Reuniclus, suicune, virizion, slowbro, latias, sigilyph, the list goes on. Why would you choose lugia over any of these?

do you serisously want an answer to this???
lugia is a ton more bulky than reuniclus,5 times faster so he can sub before he gets statused,can phaze before it gets phazed,can pressure stall removing some of her weaknesses(like ttars stone edge), and can actually kill before she gets hit...
again lugia has a ton more bulk than sigilyph,superior speed,can phaze,can pressure stall,isn't setup fodder and doesn't get screwed by a critical...
i am not even going to talk about the others since they are completely different and there is not any point in comparing them...

That's your opinion. It doesn't seem to have much foundation to me, but you're entitled to it, just as I am mine. Proving? "It's fast, super bulky and has calm mind plus I don't like it" isn't proving anything.

i wasn't trying to prove anything with my opinion..i am not trying to convince you witht this little sentence..
i said to you that other people have posted very nice answers yet you completely ingore them...
and lol i never said that i don't like it...

Wait, what? Could you explain this please?

what i mean is that when you nominate lugia to ou many people won't take you seriously and won't even start a conversation with you...
you know what i am talking about right???
there are several posts in the last pages flaming you about your opinions...
but there are also some people that take you seriously(which is what i am doing also,and that is what everyone is supposed to do as long as you engage the matter with the right manners which you did)and give you solid arguments as to why lugia is uber!
so when you post things like ''pls people stop calling my claims bs and instead give me some right reasoning,'cause everything i saw 'till now was bs'' ,doesn't this sound a little bit disrespective to all the people that discussed seriously with you?

Yeah, I can attest to that...

I had a look through the last 4 pages of this thread, and I didn't really see any good arguments against lugia. His noteworthy sets were mentioned, but no real comparisons, no thorough damage calcs...

My point is this: If we let lugia down, there is every possibility that it will be top OU. A great wall on par with stuff like ferrothorn and slowbro, and a calm minder to rival overcoat reuniclus. At this point, nobody can prove that it will be too much for OU, and we have no real way of discerning this without testing it. The top 10 contains some extremely good pokemon, and I posit that lugia could be one of them. Extremely good, but not overpowering or overcentralizing to the point of warranting a ban.

It is weak to every status condition and form of residual damage except spikes and toxic spikes, all of which can jeopardize it's bulk. You're telling me to stop creating favourable conditions for myself alexwolf? Why does everyone assume that lugia will be at 100% all the time and running the correct set to counter everything? What if cloyster or thundurus are sweeping? Lugia can't stop either. What if it switched into SR, switched out again and is now going to be at 50% next switchin? What if it gets poisoned? Lugia is not reuniclus.

i am not creating any favourable conditions...everyone assumes that lugia will be at tip top shape 'cause of its combined defences,amazing speed and reliable recovery!also noone said that with the right set it can counter everything...you are overreacting and you know it!
also if thundurus and cloyster are sweeping then you will send in your counter or check to these things!!!'cause lugia is not one of them...
and as said before poison and sr are some of the little downfalls of lugia,noone denies that!but they can played around pretty easily when you have that amazing speed and sub and roost!

 

[Zoap]

I wish I wasn't gone for so long this period, managed to get up to 1450ish early yesterday. Too bad will have to wait while the fates are decided.

 

[SlimMan]

i highly doubt this...

Then make the opposite case.

In fourth gen, I was told that the reason Manaphy was OU is that it would be a basically superior Crocune without the need for Sleep Talk. This was in fourth gen, where rain was a huge joke in the standard metagame. And in round 2, when Manaphy was banned, most of the nominations talked about bulky CM Manaphy being a monster and that Tail Glow Manaphy wasn't all that big of a deal.

In Round 2, Manaphy could abuse CM by healing itself fully in a single turn. Without instant recovery, Manaphy would be worn down much too quickly for it to be as effective as in Round 2.
Of course, that would only change if Drizzle goes.

 

[mien]

Why do you keep going on about this, JT Swift? It should be painfully clear by now that nobody besides you and a handful of others thinks Lugia could work in OU. No matter how much you keep arguing (and poorly, I might add) that it should be OU, nobody is going to go along with it. The burden of proof is on you to prove that Lugia can be OU, and you have yet to post anything that convinces me (and obviously a bunch of others) that Lugia could fit it OU. There have been plenty of reasons presented for why it's too good, and you seem to ignore them. Did you not notice the part where Lugia can beat Choice Band Tyranitar? Please, we're asking you, just let it go. It's never going to happen, so please stop cluttering up this thread with a debate on something that isn't going to change.

The burden of proof is always for those who wish to ban something not the other way around. Needless to say it is completely impossible to prove whether Lugia will work in OU through theorymon alone, as such you are asking the impossible here.

Your response reminds me of a long IRC chat i had with Locopoke and Reyscarface in october attempting to convince others that Mew may not be as outright broken as it seems. Which eventually ended with randoms calling me retarded for saying mew might be legimate and saying 'nobody agrees with you, why do you continue?

Not sure why you are bolding the part that it can beat Choice Band Tyranitar, considering it's UU counterpart Sigilyph can do the same 1 on 1. In essence it doesn't show or prove anything.

If you're trying to say that it's not going to sweep teams on its own, I would agree. I think that if you saw Lugia in OU, however, the top of the ladder would be stall vs stall at least 1/3 of the time, and good luck breaking stall with Lugia on it.

I'm running a stallteam myself on the top of the ladder but i would never run Lugia on it, simply because Quagsire seemingly walls more in the current metagame.

 

[Nkululeko]

The burden of proof is always for those who wish to ban something not the other way around.

Normally, yes. but the burden of proof is always on those who wish to change the status of the mon in question. Snce Lugia's already banned, it's on the pro-Lugia crowd to present arguments toward any change(unbanning Lugia).

Not sure why you are bolding the part that it can beat Choice Band Tyranitar, considering it's UU counterpart Sigilyph can do the same 1 on 1. In essence it doesn't show or prove anything.

It shows how hard it would be to take out Lugia with OU pokemon. CBTar Crunch/Stone Edge is SE and comes off of a STAB base 134 attack. If Lugia is taking hits like that it's perfect right where it is in Ubers.

 

[TLK]

The burden of proof is always for those who wish to ban something not the other way around. Needless to say it is completely impossible to prove whether Lugia will work in OU through theorymon alone, as such you are asking the impossible here.

I don't really have an opinion either way since I don't play OU, but couldn't you essentially argue the same thing with Arceus, Groudon, Ho-oh, Mewtwo, etc?