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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory
- Thread starter Philip7086
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Drought teams are indeed more manageable than Drizzle and Sand, but due to the fact that the previous Metagame centred around these two (dominant) weathers, sun didn't get a chance to shine and therefore as I said I feel that people are Since the high majority of weather abuse used in Smogon during the past few months have been Drizzle or Sand Stream teams, I think that some of you unintentionally underestimating the power of Drought. underestimating the power of sun.
Also, take note of the fact that sun teams where therefore build in mind with the fact that they had to counter the other weathers threats as well, meaning that Pokemon like Gliscor usually had a spot on a Sunnyday teams. If Drizzle, Garchomp and maybe Excadrill where to leave the OU Metagame, then SunnyDay teams would be able to solely concentrate on themselves. Additionally, opposing weathers prevented Sunny Day teams from running Solar Beam, which could still be the case if Sand Streamers where to stay but with the loss of the streamers (+specific counters) in battle, sun can pretty much dominate like any other weather (aside from hail).
I have no doubt that if drought + sand stream remains it will be deja vu of the constant weather wars we are all so familiar with.
@ Rosey :
I heavily doubt that the SandStreamers will leave OU any time soon, and at least with only two weathers available for juggling the war won't be as severe as it is now. Besides, Rain Dance is still a viable strategy (albeit a bit impractical) and non-weather teams can handle Drought teams much better compared to the other two weathers from what I've seen.
As said in the page before, there is no need to rush the bans. Let's do this step by step and ban Drizzle and SS abusers first, and then see if Drought will be centralizing enough to warrant a ban, agreed?
I heavily doubt that the SandStreamers will leave OU any time soon, and at least with only two weathers available for juggling the war won't be as severe as it is now. Besides, Rain Dance is still a viable strategy (albeit a bit impractical) and non-weather teams can handle Drought teams much better compared to the other two weathers from what I've seen.
As said in the page before, there is no need to rush the bans. Let's do this step by step and ban Drizzle and SS abusers first, and then see if Drought will be centralizing enough to warrant a ban, agreed?
I realise that for most of Smogon, the banning of Drizzle and SS abusers will be a big enough change for now, and that most of you have not yet seen Drought played effectively in OU to have a solid opinion on the matter. I firmly believe it will become an issue, but all in due time I guess...
I can't see Drought staying without Sand Stream staying as well, so that's one of the things you mentioned covered. (If this -does- happen, something has gone wrong around here and I'll probably just play RU. >_>)
Darmanitan is outsped and KOd by a fair bit - it's just below that all-important 100, and even falls below Pokemon like Haxorus. This means it's practically forced to run a Scarf and that means that, yes, while it can get a lot of reliable KOs, it's then killed by almost any Scarf sweeper. It's... basically a revenge killer in Sun. Charizard and Venusaur cry a little against phazing, and 'Zard falls into the 100-base Speed category, and.. I'm assuming is running Modest in your calcs, meaning it's outsped by Jolly/Timid base 100s. Venusaur's honestly the only really threatening one there, and phazers/Tornadus do a hell of a number on that thing. Also, it is quite literally walled to hell and back by Heatran.
But yeah, if it is that much of an issue, I think it's one that'll be dealt with later rather than sooner. It'd be good to get a chance to test it in a Drizzle-less metagame first.
Darmanitan is outsped and KOd by a fair bit - it's just below that all-important 100, and even falls below Pokemon like Haxorus. This means it's practically forced to run a Scarf and that means that, yes, while it can get a lot of reliable KOs, it's then killed by almost any Scarf sweeper. It's... basically a revenge killer in Sun. Charizard and Venusaur cry a little against phazing, and 'Zard falls into the 100-base Speed category, and.. I'm assuming is running Modest in your calcs, meaning it's outsped by Jolly/Timid base 100s. Venusaur's honestly the only really threatening one there, and phazers/Tornadus do a hell of a number on that thing. Also, it is quite literally walled to hell and back by Heatran.
But yeah, if it is that much of an issue, I think it's one that'll be dealt with later rather than sooner. It'd be good to get a chance to test it in a Drizzle-less metagame first.
The metagame at this stage is just getting plain annoying. We either need to ban all weather, AND stuff that weather counters, or ban nothing at this point. It's all just a massive, cycling problem.
Anyone can post nominations in the voter identification and nominations thread.
Lugia and manaphy people! Hop to it!
Lugia and manaphy people! Hop to it!
Fixed it for you :P
I think Manaphy can get his second chance if Drizzle goes, but I'm still not sold on this whole "let's try out Lugia" thing. It just seems like bringing that kinda stuff down is exacerbating the power creep that a lot of people don't like, and it seems like it's still pandering excessively to Tyranitar, who, let's face it, is pretty much the only reason we've let Deoxys and Lati@s come down from Mount Olympus this generation.
Manaphy, at least, is one of the base 600 Mew-type pokemon that we've seen aren't such a big deal to release as long as certain factors are controlled first, and he'd actually be something that doesn't kowtow to the glorious, shiny Tyranitar like most of the uber unbans have.
Manaphy, at least, is one of the base 600 Mew-type pokemon that we've seen aren't such a big deal to release as long as certain factors are controlled first, and he'd actually be something that doesn't kowtow to the glorious, shiny Tyranitar like most of the uber unbans have.
I'm not one that thinks 'Chomp, OR it's ability should get the banhammer, but wouldn't the combo ban of SS+SV still leave an open window for people to use a team that still sets up for 'Chomp on some silly $h!t like a Soft Sand (7 turns of SS weather) holding Skarmory or Forrettress that just runs runs Sandstorm (the actual move) along side their Spikes set-ups? 7 turrns is more than enough turns to switch in 'Chomp and set up, as usual since with the likes of Skarm andForrey, they cover each others weaknesses.
Maybe a little far fetched of an ideal...at first, but if 'Chomp is as broken as some people claims it is with SS+SV, then it does still leave stuff like this as viable. Which, in turn, I suppose, would show once and for all whether or not 'Chomp is broken with Sand Veil, but without auto-weather.
*EDIT*
I stand corrected...
It's in the 4th Round noms section...I disagree with it being a wasted moveslot for setup if 'Chomp is that good, but it was mentioned.
Because Wobboffet was used a crap ton in gen 4.
Usage stats aren't a measure of strength. Otherwise Wobboffet would be in the top 10.
Oh yea btw, Politoed is still in the to 10% of the pokemon used. 10.8200%
True. Besides, the usage shows Rain is used a lot. In 10.82% of all matches there was a Politoed. Out of dozens of thousands of matches and thousands of players, 1 in 10 people used Politoed on their teams. That's a lot of people.
wobbufet is a special case and you know it...
and we are talking about broken stuff not maybe broken...so yes i cannot also really understand how you claim that drizzle is broken when politoed is not even in the top 10 of usage...and usage definitely matters so stop saying the opposite when it suits you...
the answer to your question that even if that happened,it wouldn't change the fact that the problem will have been solved in a large degree...
of course we cannot assure that sand veil won't activate unless we ban it entirely(or ban sand entirely which will never happen) but if the complex ban manages to achieve the significant decrease of subchomp(which is the main culprit)then that's perfect...
and 1 out of 4 people use tyranitar!does this means that he is broken???
Duh Ttar to me is More of an Anti meta.
Yeah say all crap you want with sand is meta and other shit like that concerning Stats, but on other hand countering sand sweeper not named chomp is easy like hell, not to mention its the most logical choice
It can pursuit, it is good, overall usable, and dont hurt you much
I dont think i use non weather to counter rain since they still get their power boost off or use rain when rain is the power weather, sun with their Ninetales which sucks, or hail which is good but have inconsistent result so far. I rather use Ttar which is consistent to me
Lets face it, sand is THE anti meta as well as a part of the meta(taking part in Dory Chompie abuse team)
Lol even using simple logic is enough to troll those ignorant SANDISMETABECAUSEITISMOSTUSEDWITHABUSERNOTTOCOUNROTHER group.
Yeah say all crap you want with sand is meta and other shit like that concerning Stats, but on other hand countering sand sweeper not named chomp is easy like hell, not to mention its the most logical choice
It can pursuit, it is good, overall usable, and dont hurt you much
I dont think i use non weather to counter rain since they still get their power boost off or use rain when rain is the power weather, sun with their Ninetales which sucks, or hail which is good but have inconsistent result so far. I rather use Ttar which is consistent to me
Lets face it, sand is THE anti meta as well as a part of the meta(taking part in Dory Chompie abuse team)
Lol even using simple logic is enough to troll those ignorant SANDISMETABECAUSEITISMOSTUSEDWITHABUSERNOTTOCOUNROTHER group.
Usage matters to judge how much a pokemon is used. We all know this however, it does not give an accurate representation of a pokemon's strength.
How is Wobbuffet a special case? It's a very strong pokemon. However, 4th gen it wasn't used very much at all.
In 5th gen Encore lasts 3 turns including the turn it was used. Wobbuffet is still a very strong pokemon. Possibly uber but it isn't used very much at all.
This isn't completely obvious to everyone but Tyranitar is the anti - weather. It's strongest when going against other weather without actually being as much of a problem against non - weather than Drizzle and Drought. Also take into the fact that everyone has much more Experience with Sandstream than with Drought and Drizzle. Sandstream isn't as powerful as Drizzle but it can dominate weather.
yes but most of thimes something that is broken is used a lot...so that means that almost always broken mons have very high usage...to me being number 14 in the tier doesn't scream BROKEN.
and wobbuffet is a special case 'cause it cannot fit in any team so its usage almost always won't be very high.it is a poke that requires clever playing and most of the times it is a one trick pony.in last gen it wasn't broken in the classical meaning of the term.it just had no counters while at the same time offering immense team support..!that's why when want to show that usage of pokes doesn't always matter to tell whether it is broken or not you shouldn't reffer to wobbuffet 'cause he is really an exception to the rule...and the rule is that broken pokes have huge usage!
i am agreing with everything except that sandstream isn't as powerful as drizzle.you cannot compare the 2 weathers like this...
sandstorm provides more minor advantages and has way better inducers while rain offers bigger advantages with more sucky inducers...
the fact that sand offers less benefits means that when it is not up you will also have less downfalls,which makes sand the most balanced weather...
in the other hand drizzle provides big power and boosts which can however backfire at you when rain is not up which makes rain more of a double edged sword...
so you pick whatever you want.if you want a lot of power you chose rain,but if you want a more balanced paste of playing without being weak to almost any type of team in ou you chose sand...
in this sense of the term 'powerful',sand seems twice more powerful from rain to me(which is also echoed by the usage statistics with t-tar being number 1!
Then again, we've got stuff like Garchomp running around, a ton of faster threats who can threaten Manaphy with boosted STABs, bonus points going to those who can hit it super effectively, the advent of Ferrothorn, etc. If Drizzle were to go and Manaphy reintroduced, I'd think the metagame could handle it. It was banned on a knee-jerk reaction due to Drizzle effectively granting it a status immunity, alongside it's immense power. If Drizzle goes, it'd be nice to retest him, but I don't think it'll truly happen.
@JT Swift - Lugia
After testing out Lugia in a short trial run (25 battles) with a couple of friends for fun, I've come to the conclusion that I would not like to see this Pokemon in OU.
Additionally, a number of Ubers could have a case built up in which they would hypothetically be suitable for OU, however this should not overshadow the raw stats in which made them Uber in the first place.
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EDIT: I'm still on the whole unconvinced either way about Manaphy and Thundurus...
After testing out Lugia in a short trial run (25 battles) with a couple of friends for fun, I've come to the conclusion that I would not like to see this Pokemon in OU.
^ This.
Additionally, a number of Ubers could have a case built up in which they would hypothetically be suitable for OU, however this should not overshadow the raw stats in which made them Uber in the first place.
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EDIT: I'm still on the whole unconvinced either way about Manaphy and Thundurus...
Why do people insist on nominating ridiculous things like Giratina and Lugia for testing? "Oh hey Lugia loses to +2/+2 Terrakion, maybe it can fit into OU!" These Pokemon are Uber for a reason, because they just. Don't. Die. These are not things we want running around in OU, people. Honestly, if you think even for a second that Giratina / Lugia or even Ho-oh have a place in OU then I really have to doubt that you've ever played Ubers even once and have zero experience with them, and are just theorymoning out of your ass. They are Uber for a reason, just leave them be.
Raikaria, you are perfectly entitled to your opinion.
But you don't have to use 3/4 Fire or Fighting users to avoid getting walled. For example, Tornadus 2HKOes with Hurricane. For example, it doesn't handle STAB Earthquakes very well, especially given that the 3 most common EQ users can SD on it.
Ferrothorn gets worn down, and Leech Seed is good, but just not consistent enough to be considered reliable, if you ask me. Strong, neutral hits will take their toll on Ferrothorn, and it's not obscenely hard to 2HKO the landmine.
Bsides, even things which run Fire or Fighting moves would probably commonly run them anyway. Obviously things with STAB, but there are others as well. For instance, Fire Punch on DDNite. I bet Fire Punch would be used even without Ferrothorn around, simply because of the awesome coverage it provides in tandem with Dragon STAB. Same for Fire Blast on Mence.
Ferrothorn's offensive prowess isn't that great, really. If it uses Gyro Ball, then pretty much anything slow can set up on it (Reuniclus, Rotom-W, Conkeldurr, etc). Not only that, but Gyro Ball has low PP. But if it uses Power Whip, then it has imperfect accuracy, it still has low PP, and it has lower power against faster threats.Raikaria said:
Both STABs are needed in order to not get set up on by a group of things. But by running both moves, you must give up Spikes (which means no hazards) or Thunder Wave (which means no status) or Leech Seed (which means no recovery at all) or Protect (which means you're much less effective at stalling).
Ferrothorn suffers from terrible 4 MoveSlot Syndrome, and it just can't do it all.
I see the landmine as being very good or excellent, but I disagree about it being too good, as I've said before.
Celebi has more than 3% usage, and Virizion has more than 4%. And Ferrothorn can't do jack to either of them. Whimsicott is always, always running Max Hp/Max Def and a Bold/Impish nature, meaning that Ferrothorn's uninvested Gyro Ball won't be too much of a bother for it.Raikaria said:
Most OU Grass-types do not lose to Ferrothorn. Other examples include Venusaur, who will KO you with a sun-boosted HP Fire. In fact, just about any Chlorophyll Pokemon can do that (the only Chlorophyll exception is Sawsbuck, who will Jump Kick you for the kill). Or Breloom, who can Spore you; or it can just set up a Sub and Focus Punch you to death. Really, Ferrothorn loses to pretty much every Grass type in OU, and most of the UU ones as well.
But regardless of which examples I used, Grass types deprive Ferrothorn of its only recovery, and the damage accumulates on it very quickly after that.
And the fact that you haven't seen many of them is in fact a testament to Ferrothorn's un-brokenness. If it was truly broken, a lot more people would run those Grass types in order to beat Ferrothorn more easily. But they don't need to, because they have other ways of dealing with Ferrothorn.
Yes!
Hello Manaphy, I just hit you with a strong attack.Go ahead, heal off the damage. OH, wait...
Hello Manaphy, I just Toxic'ed you. Go ahead, shrug off the status. OH, wait...
And Manaphy could fix that problem by running Rain Dance and/or Rest. But then it loses out horribly on coverage, and gets walled by a lot more shit.
I honestly don't think Manaphy would be anywhere close to over-powered in a Drizzle-less metagame.
If it isn't good in Uber, that doesn't mean it is allowed in OU. With a 4x resistance to Fighting, the most common type in the tier, with its BST as 390, and I only used it's defenses. Also, it speed ties with Gengar, and outspeeds everyone under a base 110 Speed Stat. People here are thinking that its bad in Uber, but think of the impact it will have on OU. Skarmory will be completely outclassed, and will go down to OU. That means a domino effect will be in order and then most Physical attackers in UU will go down to RU. Regardless of it's typing, Lugia has amazing stats, Flying-Type STAB, CM, 154 SDef. Another thing is that Blissey will be overpowered, as now it will be something like Lugey (Lugia + Blissey). The worst part is, that most of the moves that will to super-effective damage to him will do nothing, as Ghost- and Dark- type moves are mostly special attackers. Plus, if Drizzle gets banned, it doesn't need to worry about Thunder, so how would Lugia be OU material, as it is waaaaaaay to overpowered in that sense, even if it is "horrible" in Uber. Even in Uber it is still good, as not many moves will OHKO it.
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