np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

[SlimMan]

^^^
I agree with that entire post.


Two things about nominations:
1) Cloyster? Cloyster???!!! How is that nomination justified, I wonder? I would ordinarily get the justification from the actual nom, but there's none there.
2) Raikaria is still on the Ferrothorn war-path. I didn't know that was still even being contemplated, lol. Anyway, Ferrothorn is not an auto-loss if you don't have Fighting or Fire moves (or if your user dies). It's harder to kill, but far from impossible. Any Grass type pretty much fucks it (hello Whimsicott Taunt, hello Virizion Focus Blast, hello Celebi Nasty Plot) and pretty much any bulky Substitute or Taunt user sets up on it or doesn't care about it. Starmie is the only common Rapid Spinner which Ferrothorn beats, and Fighting types are extremely common this Gen anyway.
I don't want to start this debate again, because I thought it ended, like, 60 pages ago. But I fail to see the logic of a Ferrothorn ban.

 

[TorchicBlaziken]

I thought Hail was the anti-weather.

 

[Ryukapple]

I thought Hail was the anti-weather.

I did too, but I guess I see what they mean when they say sand is. Maybe sand is the anti-weather and hail is more like the anti-sand.

 

[Nkululeko]

I did too, but I guess I see what they mean when they say sand is. Maybe sand is the anti-weather and hail is more like the anti-sand.

Sand/Hail are both anti-Drizzle/Drought, but Sand is also stronger against the rest of the meta

 

[alexwolf]

i don't think that sand is anti-metagame...sand is the biggest part of the metagame actually!
i would consider rain and sun to be more anti-meta than sand 'cause they can counter the biggest threat in the metagame,which is sand(although this isn't true 'cause they are also a big part of the meta)...

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Sand isn't really countered that well by sun to be honest. You might be lucky to take out a sand maker with a grass type, but if they have 2, well your screwed. But with rain, you just plow through all those ground and rock types, even if rain isn't up. Sun does counter rain though, with those main spamming move down and all.

 

[Nkululeko]

i don't think that sand is anti-metagame...sand is the biggest part of the metagame actually!
i would consider rain and sun to be more anti-meta than sand 'cause they can counter the biggest threat in the metagame,which is sand(although this isn't true 'cause they are also a big part of the meta)...

Sand is the second biggest part of the metagame (non-weather is technically 1st) because it's a good check to other weathers and is competitively viable in ways Hail and Clear Skies aren't. Rain and Sun are definitely not anti-meta b/c they're too common(around like 10% of the meta for Rain alone) and the only reason Sand is the biggest threat in the meta is because it's the easiet option over Rain/Sun and non-weather.

 

[alexwolf]

Sand is the second biggest part of the metagame (non-weather is technically 1st) because it's a good check to other weathers and is competitively viable in ways Hail and Clear Skies aren't. Rain and Sun are definitely not anti-meta b/c they're too common(around like 10% of the meta for Rain alone) and the only reason Sand is the biggest threat in the meta is because it's the easiet option over Rain/Sun and non-weather.

yes but sand is not used solely to counter other weathers...tyranitar is a beast and it is one of the only 2 perfect counters to specslatios and to many more dangerous threats...also sand has garchomp,landorus and excadrill!
i don't believe that sand is anti-meta at all...i still stand for my opinion that sand is the biggest part of the meta(weather as a whole is the biggest part of the meat but if we go to smaller aspects then sand is)!!!

 

[Nkululeko]

Sand is the second biggest part of the metagame (non-weather is technically 1st) because it's a good check to other weathers and is competitively viable in ways Hail and Clear Skies aren't. Rain and Sun are definitely not anti-meta b/c they're too common(around like 10% of the meta for Rain alone) and the only reason Sand is the biggest threat in the meta is because it's the easiet option over Rain/Sun and non-weather.

yes but sand is not used solely to counter other weathers...tyranitar is a beast and it is one of the only 2 perfect counters to specslatios and to many more dangerous threats...also sand has garchomp,landorus and excadrill!

That is quite literally exactly what I said.

it's the easiet option over Rain/Sun and non-weather.

i don't believe that sand is anti-meta at all...i still stand for my opinion that sand is the biggest part of the meta(weather as a whole is the biggest part of the meat but if we go to smaller aspects then sand is)!!!

Sand is the second biggest part of the metagame non-weather is technically 1st because weather was 40%ish last time I checked and 100-40ish leaves 60ish% not weather. And I never said it was anti-meta, I said it was anti-weather and still competitively viable against the rest of OU.

 

[alexwolf]

That is quite literally exactly what I said.

Sand is the second biggest part of the metagame non-weather is technically 1st because weather was 40%ish last time I checked and 100-40ish leaves 60ish% not weather. And I never said it was anti-meta, I said it was anti-weather and still competitively viable against the rest of OU.

yes i agree with you!
ah and sry for not making this clear but when i said that i don't consider sand to be anti meta i wasn't specially reffering to you...

 

[Nkululeko]

yes i agree with you!
ah and sry for not making this clear but when i said that i don't consider sand to be anti meta i wasn't specially reffering to you...

It's all good

 

[Nonary Game]

I'm curious as to why we're just jumping to banning weather outright, or nominating it at the least. No one complained about Sand Stream or even Snow Warning back in Generation IV, what the hell makes it warrant a ban all of a sudden? And Hail, just to make it fair? What the hell, very few people if any use Hail. Just think about this for a minute. If we only had Sand in the end, the potential summoners are Tyranitar and Hippowdon, and both hate a really nasty Water-based hit, thus carrying a bulky water would mean that one poke becomes a non-issue. Or something.

I'm all for balancing the metagame, but you guys are just moving too quickly regarding bans. Yes, in terms of usage the meta's mostly stabilized. But I don't think two or three potential abusers of Sand automatically break the weather. I don't get it. I warned against this back in Gen IV. I guess I was right.

I can't do this anymore. I give up. We're just ban-happy without thinking critically or giving time to think regarding this shit. Let's just slow down the suspect periods a bit and think. It's a shame everyone is ban-happy. You don't see other competitive communities doing this much.

tl;dr Please, please, please, think everything through. Just please. It's the only plea I ask of everyone here. It doesn't matter if you're a user, moderator, admin, whatever. Please just think with your nominations. That's the only thing I ask of you. It's too soon to be making these calls.

 

[SlimMan]

I'm curious as to why we're just jumping to banning weather outright, or nominating it at the least. No one complained about Sand Stream or even Snow Warning back in Generation IV, what the hell makes it warrant a ban all of a sudden? And Hail, just to make it fair? What the hell, very few people if any use Hail. Just think about this for a minute. If we only had Sand in the end, the potential summoners are Tyranitar and Hippowdon, and both hate a really nasty Water-based hit, thus carrying a bulky water would mean that one poke becomes a non-issue. Or something.

I'm all for balancing the metagame, but you guys are just moving too quickly regarding bans. Yes, in terms of usage the meta's mostly stabilized. But I don't think two or three potential abusers of Sand automatically break the weather. I don't get it. I warned against this back in Gen IV. I guess I was right.

I can't do this anymore. I give up. We're just ban-happy without thinking critically or giving time to think regarding this shit. Let's just slow down the suspect periods a bit and think. It's a shame everyone is ban-happy. You don't see other competitive communities doing this much.

Yes. Yes.

P.S.- Someone please explain to me how on earth Hail is broken! I wish to be enlightened on that! Or even Sandstorm, because that's really just Garchomp's fault for being a smug little mf, if you ask me.

 

[Little Battler]

Hmmm... the discussion seems to have cooled down to more rational levels in this page, I suppose I'll dive into the topic then.

From what I've seen so far in this thread and the nominations thread, the bans nominated by some are simply... ridiculous. I spotted a smashpass+espeon ban somewhere. Good grief.

Next, weather is currently a prevalent part of the metagame, with the most prevalent being sandstorm. In my humble opinion though, the broken ones within the weathers themselves are (respectively) :

- Sand : I'd have to say that Garchomp is, with or without sand, broken. It has enough speed and bulk to nab a boost and sweep through teams, even without sand as one of the posters have written here earlier (forgive me for the lack of quotation). Excadrill is also incredibly powerful, and I am hard-pressed to say that he is not too good. Unfortunately, I am also hard-pressed to find any evidence that he is, in fact, too good. Therefore I am on a neutral stance regarding 'Drill.

- Rain : From my observations I have concluded that the broken element within rain is not the abusers, but Drizzle itself as an ability. Even without its Swift Swim sweepers, Rain teams are still more than capable of being a formidable threat when the rain is started by Drizzle. By banning Drizzle, Rain will still be powerful, but not overpowering since Rain teams are now limited to 8-turns window-of-opportunities (or 5, if the dancer happens to forgo Damp Rock), just like how it was back last gen.

- Sun : I have yet to see or face a sun team that is massively overpowering, therefore I'd say that Drought doesn't have to be banned.

- Hail : I rarely face any hail teams so I'd rather not say anything on this matter.


Next, on the matter of complex bans. I do think that these are not needed. They not only make the game much more complicated, but the ends they deliver can be achieved through simpler means. For one example, rather than banning SandStream + SandVeil like one of us (posters) have pointed out earlier just because SandVeil Garchomp is broken (under sand, as some would surely point out), we can achieve the same results by simply banning Garchomp. No more bullet-time land-shark to worry about, and silly stuff like Sandslash and co. will still be able to be used by those who wish to use them (yes, I am quite sure that there are some Sandslash aficionados out there).

Third, I would like to make a point about banning a pokemon. In my opinion, a pokemon should be banned if one of the sets it is capable of running is by any definitions broken. Therefore, while RoughSkin Garchomp might not be as broken as SandVeil Garchomp, I still think that we should ban Garchomp as a whole. This is because having SandVeil as an option breaks Garchomp (or at least according to most people), and in my opinion it means that the pokemon as a whole is broken. This also applies to Blaziken (if anyone is still discussing the chicken) which was banned because of SpeedBoost. If SpeedBoost breaks Blaziken, then it is Blaziken who is broken, and therefore it should be banned, ability notwithstanding.

I believe that I have written everything that I have to write. If I have written anything bad or stupid, please do note it. If you have a point you would like to address to my thoughts, please do feel free to reply to my post. Thank you.

 

[Yoshiken]

^^^ I could not agree more right now.

Drizzle and Garchomp are the bans I'm supporting right now. I came into this knowing both had counters, but they're too specific for Drizzle/Chomp to not be overpowering. Sun, on the other hand, has way too few abusers (probably due to a lack of Hurricane equivalent, and SolarBeam being much worse than Thunder) to be broken, and consists almost entirely of Grass/Fire types - if they want coverage, they have to branch into Pokes that get next-to-no benefit from Sun. (Even those who would like to avoid a Water weakness are, for the most part, not using Fire-type moves, at least.) Add in a SR weakness and (Toxic) Spikes susceptibility on the weather summoner and it makes Phazing ridiculously good against Drought.
Sand Stream... This is an awkward one. I agree that there are too few abusers to make it broken - the one thing I can't decide on is whether or not Excadrill is enough of an abuser to warrant a ban. It absolutely requires priority or a tank and a half in order to beat it, and that's assuming it doesn't just switch out. Worse yet, I have run into a SubPass set with Excadrill before, and that just made it absolute hell - I didn't predict the (Vaporeon) BP at all and by the time I'd switched in my (first) answer to Exca, it was at +2 and behind a Sub. Ouch.
Garchomp needs to go, unfortunately. As much as I might like it, it's just that little bit too far over the line.

On the whole, though, I just want to echo what Demo-Kun said earlier. Seriously, think, guys. SmashPass+Espeon is way too complex. Hell, Aldaron's Proposal is too complex, that's why we're looking at replacing it with normal bans. More importantly, Hail?! Really, guys. Just take a quick glance at the metagame, at the usage stats and at your nominations. Think about it: does Abomasnow really need to go? Better yet, do Vulpix, Snover and Hippopotas really need to go?

 

[Ewil]

Garchomp & maybe Excadrill got to go for the sand part (or we can ban sand veil). (Personally i want a Ttar ban, but i know that he is not broken, i hate he and stop asd)

Drizzle got to go for the owerpower that gives to water type even without SwSwimmers.

Drought got to go 'coz, without Drizzle can be the new "aldaron proposal"-worth.

Snow Warming have only stall from his part (pratically) the only aggromon that i can see is kyurem and is quite manageble due to his speed and weakness. Then SW can stay (and we can ban Snow Cloak maybe).

That's my point about weathers.

For SmashPassing, just ban the combo.

Thundurus deserves a re-test after drizzle gones in my opinion (I am not sure about it).

Ferrothorn is far from broken. He is top-tier, yes, but Taunt, Fire/Fight-move or a boosted neutral-move can ohko or 2hko he.

I'm in favor of the Manaphy unban if drizzle gones and for the unban of Lax Incense/Bright Power if Sand Veil/Snow Cloak (Maybe even only garchomp) gones.

 

[Yoshiken]

Evasion items aren't even that good with SV/SC, they were just banned in the raeg against evasion 'hax'. I'd be very strongly in favour of bringing them back, in order to avoid this ban-happy style of the current moment.
Drought isn't like Drizzle, though - even with Drizzle gone, Water-types will still be viable (Starmie/Tentacruel/Vaporeon come to mind) and Water/Ice is hilariously good against Drought-teams. Add in a weakness to SR and it's quite manageable, even with Chlorophyll users. (Not to mention that none of the Chloros are quite as good as Ludi/Kingdra.)
Thundurus... From what I've seen, the main arguments against him are that he can run NP+3 attacks with good coverage & priority NP, or he can run NP/TWave/2 attacks and still get decent coverage.
Edit: To clarify: this means Drizzle isn't what's deemed to be breaking him, his movepool is.
Although you do raise a good point there..
A recommendation to all those nominating: set conditionals on nominations? So, for example:
- If Drizzle/Drought/SS are banned
- If Drizzle/Drought are banned
- If Drizzle is banned
- If weather is unbanned
(I doubt any other combinations are going to happen/are relevant - all weathers might happen, but lolhail I really don't see any Pokes being potentially broken because of HAIL)

 

[Pocket]

For any serious discussions about Complex Bans, I suggest visiting this thread. We had a relatively productive and rational discussion in the end that pretty much supports why good Combination bans are indeed useful and beneficial to the metagame.

Basically we should not focus on the technicalities ("it's too complex!"), and look at the bigger picture of what the combination ban would do for the metagame. Sometimes, simplicity is not always the best way to deal things. We should be open to any good solutions (not hastily-made or shitty ones like Draco Meteor + Latios ban) that would balance the metagame. Aldaron's Proposal is an example of how Combination Ban benefited the metagame at the time, by removing Swift Swim + Drizzle out fo the picture. Whether or not Drizzle is ultimately deemed broken or not is not the issue - Aldaron's Proposal has allowed us to lead to that accurate conclusion, and thus it was necessary.

If a combination ban happens to be the better solution than a particular simple ban, why not implement a complex ban for the sake of the metagame? Who cares if it is "complex."

If Drizzle was voted not overpowered this round, however, then there is no need to remove Aldaron's Proposal that has maintained the balance since the end of Round 2, unless anyone requests a more appropriate suggestion (IE. Suspect Tests on Swift Swimmers).

 

[Raikaria]

2) Raikaria is still on the Ferrothorn war-path. I didn't know that was still even being contemplated, lol. Anyway, Ferrothorn is not an auto-loss if you don't have Fighting or Fire moves (or if your user dies). It's harder to kill, but far from impossible. Any Grass type pretty much fucks it (hello Whimsicott Taunt, hello Virizion Focus Blast, hello Celebi Nasty Plot) and pretty much any bulky Substitute or Taunt user sets up on it or doesn't care about it. Starmie is the only common Rapid Spinner which Ferrothorn beats, and Fighting types are extremely common this Gen anyway.
I don't want to start this debate again, because I thought it ended, like, 60 pages ago. But I fail to see the logic of a Ferrothorn ban.

I'm of the opinion that Ferrothorn is broken, and I'm bold enough to make the nomination, even if no-one else nominates Ferrothorn.

I'm of of the opinion that it is unhealthy for the metagame to be forced to stick Fighting/Fire attacks on every other member of your team, because otherwise Ferrothorn will wall you all day and night.

Then there's Ferrothorn's offensive prowess [Decent Attack a Base 120 STAB and another one which is Base 120 against a good amount of the metagame], and the rediculous ease with which it can set up hazards.

I'm allowed to nominate something I feel is broken, and, to be honest, Ferrothorn is probobly seen as 'Very Good' or 'Excellent' in most people's eyes.

I just see it as 'Too Good'.

Oh, and Nasty Plot Celebi? I've not even seen one of those, and Virizion isn't exactly the world's most common pokemon either. Whimsicott loses horribly to Gyro Ball too, in fact, that's the case for most OU grass-types.

Except Ferrothorn itself and Virizion.

 

[JSND]

^ nothing is wrong with nominating waht you THINK is broken

I myself actualy want to nominate Tornadus but i hate getting flamed, and my current reasoning says it all

 

[Rosey Oak]

DROUGHT

Since the high majority of weather abuse used in Smogon during the past few months have been Drizzle or Sand Stream teams, I think that some of you unintentionally underestimating the power of Drought. Having battled on a shoddy server for 1-2 months, where Drizzle, Garchomp and Excadrill were banned, and Drought remained as the dominant weather, I firmly believe that it is far overpowering. Therefore I will write a detailed evaluation of drought, in the hope to convince the rest of you that it creates an unbalanced, unhealthy Metagame.


Overall Summary:

Permanent sun gives chlorophyll sweepers a forever x2 speed boost in sunlight (and allows access to full move switching) unlike choice scarfers who get a less impressive x1.5 speed boost in comparison and cannot switch between their moves. With Chlorophyll sweepers such as Venasaur, Lilligant and Sawsbuck only needing a tiny EV investment in speed (Venasaur the slowest of them all outruns base 130 speed Jolteon after just 8 speed EV investments) means that they can afford to invest more in bulk. This therefore helps them to set up more to gain an easy sweep or survive crucial hits. Additionally, sun also enables chlorophyll sweepers to gain straight access to their strongest stab move base 120 Solarbeam. On the other hand, fire type moves are boosted by a massive 50% (base 105 HP-Fire) in addition to useful abilities such as Solar Power, Flash Fire and Sheer Force. Furthermore, water attacks are decreased by substantial 50% in sun, and therefore we could expect a massive decline in the use of water type Pokemon due to the fact that their stab moves are weakened and that the Metagame will be filled with chlorophyll grass sweepers. Lastly, without the use of specific drought team counters (Heatran or Dragonite), you are almost doomed to lose the battle.


Statistics:

Vensaur plus one Growth + LO:

Latias (the dragon sweeper with the best base sp.def stat) – Sludge Bomb:
852 Atk vs 296 Def & 301 HP (90 Base Power): 279 - 328 (92.69% - 108.97%)

Tentacruel (which won’t kill Venasaur with Ice Beam and can’t switch in anyway) – Solar Beam:
852 Atk vs 372 Def & 364 HP (120 Base Power): 295 - 348 (81.04% - 95.60%)

Brongzong –HP-Fire:
852 Atk vs 372 Def & 364 HP (105 Base Power): 346 - 408 (95.05% - 112.09%)

Shuckle – Solar Beam:
852 Atk vs 614 Def & 244 HP (120 Base Power): 178 - 211 (72.95% - 86.48%)

Common OU walls (excluding Blissey which can take uber hits x.x) such as Ferrothorn, Jellicent, will ofc be OHKO’d.
Not that these Pokemon will be seen often with Drought Teams running around.

Darmanitan Sheer Force – LO – Flare Blitz - SUNBOOST – 304.2 (+ stab):

Sweepers Latios, Latias, Haxorus and Hydreigon are all OHKO'd.

Max HP/Def Bold Cofagrigus:
416 Atk vs 427 Def & 320 HP (304 Base Power): 318 - 375 (99.38% - 117.19%)

Max HP/Def Impish Gliscor:
416 Atk vs 383 Def & 354 HP (304 Base Power): 355 - 418 (100.28% - 118.08%)

Max HP/Def Bold Suicune:
416 Atk vs 361 Def & 404 HP (304 Base Power): 188 - 222 (46.53% - 54.95%)

Charizard (Timid) Specs – Solar Power + SUNBOOST:

Max HP/Sp.def Tentacruel:
713 Atk vs 372 Def & 364 HP (180 Base Power): 185 - 218 (50.82% - 59.89%)

Max HP/Sp.def Jellicent:
713 Atk vs 339 Def & 404 HP (180 Base Power): 204 - 240 (50.50% - 59.41%)

Max HP/Sp.def Lugia:
713 Atk vs 447 Def & 416 HP (180 Base Power): 309 - 364 (74.28% - 87.50%)


Overall statistics wise, I think that these results show that Drought shouldn’t be underestimated and that it is a deadly threat. Almost no wall will effectively be able to switch in, take the 1st hit live another hit and then kill. Likewise resistant sweepers will have a hard time, living the 1st powerful hit and then being fast enough to kill the opposing Pokemon. Therefore it appears that the only effective way to truly counter sun’s sweepers is through the use of Heatran or Dragonite (but I assume that good teams will find a way to deal with this). Note: This similarly resembles the drizzle swift swim situation as with the best counter Ferrothorn out of the way, the team could easily sweep the opponent.


Counter Arguments:

'Sandstorm destroys sunny day teams.'

Yes this is true, but if the solution to stopping drought is to set up another weather, then I feel that it emphasises problems within the current Metagame.

'lol!! Sunnyday teams are owned by Heatran and dragon types.'

The only Dragon type to truly counter ‘drought’ is Dragonite , seeing that Latios, Latias, Haxorus and Hydreigon are all either OHKO’d (by most drought sweepers even if they don’t carry HP-Ice) or in the case of Pokemon like Lilligant they live the 1st hit (no quiver dance) and are Easily OHKO’d in the second Hit. Dragonite and Heatran can usually stop drought if the opponent looses their hp ground/ ice + earthquake Pokemon, but I think the list of two effective counters is rather small.

‘Use Stealth Rocks Duh.’

The most common SR set ups in OU atm are Ferrothorn, Swampert, Skarmory, Jirachi and Fortress. All of which are either weak to fire or grass (Swampert will be take a nasty hit from Fire Types in sun anyway), therefore actually trying to set up SR in the 1st place can become a bit of a problematic issue.


Conclusion:

Although Drought is not as deadly as Drizzle, it still causes a major imbalance to the Metagame; favouring specific Pokemon and putting others at a disadvantage. It also shares the same characteristics as Drizzle in the sense that it allows Pokemon ‘X’ to kill ‘Y’ and for Pokemon ‘Y’ to live ‘Z’. All Pokemon are affected by Drought whether it is direct or indirect. I firmly believe that such favourably for such a large number of Pokemon should not be brought on just by sending a Pokemon out without even using a move.

 

[November Blue]

Does anyone else agree with releasing manaphy if drizzle ends up banned?

 

[Little Battler]

Does anyone else agree with releasing manaphy if drizzle ends up banned?

I believe that if Manaphy lacks a consistent rain support, it would not be as deadly as it is now. Without Drizzle, Manaphy will be forced to rely on RainDancers if it wants to use its signature HydraRest combo. While Tail Glow is still a boost of epic proportions, Manaphy's longevity will be severely reduced without consistent rain support, therefore I agree that without drizzle Manaphy is simply good, not too good.

Ban Drizzle and test Manaphy.

@ Rosey :
I actually find Drought teams more manageable than Sandstream and Drizzle teams. I am able to get through more Drought teams without a specific weather counter compared to the other two top weathers, so I suppose it is not really worth the nomination if you actually put one.
EDIT : besides, Solarbeam is rather risky if the opposing team has a weather changer. I rarely see any Solarbeams in action.

 

[November Blue]

Ban Drizzle and test Manaphy.

Then go post this in the noms thread!

Everyone!

 

[Rosey Oak]

Does anyone else agree with releasing manaphy if drizzle ends up banned?

I'm unsure atm, due to the fact that tail glow gets a plus 3 boost in 5th gen. Someone would need to convince me either way...(but I am very open minded about it.)