Wat. They were over-used, not over-centralizing. If anything, you should say Sandstorm was over-centralizing because it forced you into using Leftovers on everything (untrue, but at least a more legitimate argument).
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Poll: Would you still play in Smogon's OU if all perma-weather was banned?
- Thread starter Woodchuck
- Start date
Wat. They were over-used, not over-centralizing. If anything, you should say Sandstorm was over-centralizing because it forced you into using Leftovers on everything (untrue, but at least a more legitimate argument).
What I mean, Nkululeko, is that every pokemon gets some kind of boost in some kind of weather. You can't just throw the names of the top 20 pokes, find some way one weather boosts them, and conclude by saying the weather completely centralizes the metagame.
You could probably take the Gen IV OU list and find just as many pokemons who benefit somehow from weather.
Btw Starmie rocks in sand. It brings some welcome Special coverage, spins (because I'd rather be using SD if I get a free turn with Excadrill) and takes care of Garchomp, Gliscor and Conkeldurr (among others), 3 foes that sand doesn't like facing.
You could probably take the Gen IV OU list and find just as many pokemons who benefit somehow from weather.
Btw Starmie rocks in sand. It brings some welcome Special coverage, spins (because I'd rather be using SD if I get a free turn with Excadrill) and takes care of Garchomp, Gliscor and Conkeldurr (among others), 3 foes that sand doesn't like facing.
But the top 20 pokes(with arguably 3 exceptions) directly fit in with weather use/abuse/or countering. If weather doesn't completely centralize the metagame then why is the top ten basically a standard Sand team and the number one pokemon a weather starter seen on one in every five teams?
We're talking about Gen 5. This isn't about Gen 4 at all.
You're only proving me right since you said Starmie wasn't a weather poke, and the pokemon that "sand doesn't like facing" are high in usage too. Nobody's always right, but when they are give them some credit, j/s.
Because they're good? Because they resist Stealth Rock? Because of any number of other reasons?
Weather might make a few of them more played than they otherwise would be, but you cannot prove it for any of them but Excadrill and Politoed. For the other 18, you are simply assuming that because they play well on weather teams, they are used because of weather teams.
As I've already said at least four times in this thread: correlation does not imply causation.
Most people who are using the current usage stats for justification to ban all weather wouldn't say that 4th Gen was centralized around weather, since it hurts their argument. But the usage stats for Gen 4 also, by your logic, show a metagame completely centered around Sand.
No, use common sense. The number of reasons are directly from weather for about 17 of them, that's 85% of the top 20. Why else would Conkeldurr rise in usage the month after players saw the rise in Sand teams that it hurts a lot. Btw, not all of them are SR resistant, some were dropping in usage until Sand's prevalence was known(Conkeldurr/Scizor rose too).
Really. For future reference, let's go with top ten:
Allow me to refer you to the top 5:
| 1 | Tyranitar | 119711 | 21.8169 |
| 2 | Ferrothorn | 117960 | 21.4978 |
| 3 | Garchomp | 113074 | 20.6073 |
| 4 | Scizor | 107394 | 19.5722 |
| 5 | Gliscor | 87936 | 16.0260 |
You forgot ^. I can't proveyou disagree with me, it's common sense. Anyway, I don't think Sub, SD Garchomp is popular under anything but weather, Tyranitar is obvious because it's the main inducer of all weathers, (I dissproved your point here but I'll keep going) Ferrothorn is known to be good in Rain/Sand and Gliscor/Scizor counter Sand threats like Ttar and Excadrill. Unless you don't think Chomp/Ferrothorn can abuse Sand...
I don't care how many times you say it, it's still wrong. I guess that means if Garchomp is two usage ranks below Ttar, which activates its only ability, then there is no relation. That is quite literally ignoring common sense.
4th Gen had two possible weathers (one was lol Hail) and iirc there was no Drizzle, which is now on 1 in every 10 teams, that's a lot. And yes, 4th Gen is completely centered around Sand, it's well known. There wasn't a need to ban weather in Gen 4 because there was no Drizzle/Drought and no Landorus/Excadrill/Ferrothorn/Reuniclus, etc. The comparison isn't valid in 5th Gen, it's a different metagame.
Would I stop playing on the server, not really. but at the same time, I would think that this kind of thing is continuing down the slippery slope- I mean weather is the main part of the new meta-game, and I figure it's here to stay- why get rid of it just because it gets boring- if you don't like it, be different, make a new team that is distinct from x weather team. At the same time, I do support the idea of a second tier to allow weather to exist, but I think it's better as a whole to just keep things the same. While I wouldn't entirely leave, since I figure that even with the many changes, Smogon is the best place for competitive battling, at the same time a ban such as that would be a massive disappointment.
Oh, come on. About three (you could push for two more) of the top 20 are used because of weather, stop saying 17 of them are. Tyranitar, Excadrill, Politoed, and you could maybe make the case for Volcarona or Garchomp.
Weather is used because if offers small boosts to many pokemon, and those boosts come with barely any drawbacks. Is Ferrothorn used because of weather? NO! He's better in weather because Sand offers passive damage and Rain mitigates the Fire weakness. Latios likes Rain a little because of the boosted Surfs, but it isn't used because of weather.
There's a difference between Rain Abuser and Good in Rain. Politoed is a Rain Abuser. Thundurus is Good in Rain. Weather is overcentralizing because it offers small boosts to almost every Pokemon. However, weather is not broken. It does not make the game unplayable, and it doesn't make the whole game about preserving your weather inducer. Preserving your weather inducer is a big part of the game, but it's not the whole thing. It's like a queen in chess. If you lose your queen (your weather mon), you're playing at a disadvantage but you're far from finished.
3-5 of the top 20 are weather abusers. Conkeldurr rose in usage because of Sand teams rising in usage because Conkeldurr does well against Tyranitar. That doesn't mean Sand is broken. Magnezone rose this month because of Steels being good, that doesn't mean Steels are broken. It's called the metagame evolving.
Sub SD Garchomp rose because of Sand. That's the metagame evolving. Garchomp can utilize Sand well, so it tailors its main set to do so. That means the metagame is centralized around Sand.
If something centralizes the metagame, is it broken? Of course not! Something will always centralize the metagame because some Pokemon are better than others.
For something to be broken, it has to make the game unplayable because it controls the metagame. Weather obviously controls the meta, but it doesn't make the game unplayable.
Weather is used because if offers small boosts to many pokemon, and those boosts come with barely any drawbacks. Is Ferrothorn used because of weather? NO! He's better in weather because Sand offers passive damage and Rain mitigates the Fire weakness. Latios likes Rain a little because of the boosted Surfs, but it isn't used because of weather.
There's a difference between Rain Abuser and Good in Rain. Politoed is a Rain Abuser. Thundurus is Good in Rain. Weather is overcentralizing because it offers small boosts to almost every Pokemon. However, weather is not broken. It does not make the game unplayable, and it doesn't make the whole game about preserving your weather inducer. Preserving your weather inducer is a big part of the game, but it's not the whole thing. It's like a queen in chess. If you lose your queen (your weather mon), you're playing at a disadvantage but you're far from finished.
3-5 of the top 20 are weather abusers. Conkeldurr rose in usage because of Sand teams rising in usage because Conkeldurr does well against Tyranitar. That doesn't mean Sand is broken. Magnezone rose this month because of Steels being good, that doesn't mean Steels are broken. It's called the metagame evolving.
Sub SD Garchomp rose because of Sand. That's the metagame evolving. Garchomp can utilize Sand well, so it tailors its main set to do so. That means the metagame is centralized around Sand.
If something centralizes the metagame, is it broken? Of course not! Something will always centralize the metagame because some Pokemon are better than others.
For something to be broken, it has to make the game unplayable because it controls the metagame. Weather obviously controls the meta, but it doesn't make the game unplayable.
I plan on going back to OU if the weather goes, but until then i'm having too much fun in UU & RU
That was my point, that weather was clearly dominating the meta but everyone seems content to ignore that basic fact. TY for agreeing with me.
EDIT: I did say at some point here I used the word "abuser" to often but I'll make it a point to point out that weather's dominance is evident by the rise in pokes that do well in that environment, that was my original viewpoint and the usage stats support this.
how is weather controlling the meta a bad thing? I would probably stop playing here if they band all auto weather because at that point its getting ridiculous. Its just banning things you don't like at that point. weather is a large part of the game and trying to remove seems ridiculous. Its like deciding to ban all steels because they are everywhere and that means they are ruining the meta.
The only annoying part of it would be the inability to use Tyranitar, or at least the good version of Tyranitar, once his DW version is out. No Gen IV moves on that guy would be pretty annoying.
I hope GF realizes something is wrong while making (B/W third version) and makes Air Lock/Cloud Nine completely erase the current weather instead of just hiding it under the nearest carpet, although that's pretty unlikely to happen...
I hope GF realizes something is wrong while making (B/W third version) and makes Air Lock/Cloud Nine completely erase the current weather instead of just hiding it under the nearest carpet, although that's pretty unlikely to happen...
And 33% less special bulk, too. Bleh.
I really enjoy using Tar, and I'd really rather see him banned than nerfed into this. He'd probably still be good (who the fuck am I kidding, he'd still hit like a truck and have good bulk), but not quite the top-tier threat he is with Sand Stream and his complete movepool.
Not sure if this has been suggested already, but what's wrong with having a separate "Clear Skies" metagame like PO has? I understand the concern that, the more tiers you have, the fewer people play in each tier, but then, maybe, don't make it permanent. See which metagame people like better, either through usage (wouldn't recommend that, since the large majority of unskilled players are of the opinion that "Weather iz gay") or through feedback (polls, threads and whatnot). Then, if people are finding that having both metagames active at once is too divisive, then get rid of the one that's not working.
I don't remember saying it was a bad thing and if I did it was not my intent. Another post said that weather was neither dominating nor broken and the former was just not true. I'm sorry you would choose to leave Smogon but your analogy is kinda flawed. Steel types ruining the meta? Impossible, if that even started to happen then people would simpy run Fire/Fighting/Ground attacks and usage would change again. It's too one-dimensional, whereas weather is a completely different can of worms.
Edit:The Clear Skies ladder sounds like a good idea but if one got too popular the other would be phazed out eventually.
1. Would you still play in Smogon's OU if all perma-weather was banned?
'Absolutely. I would prefer it if permanent weather was banned.'
2. Will you still play in Smogon's OU if all perma-weathers are still around three Suspect periods from now?
I don't even need to think about it. My answer is definitely not.
Side Note: Anyone who has read the main discussion forum for suspects will know my reasoning.
'Absolutely. I would prefer it if permanent weather was banned.'
2. Will you still play in Smogon's OU if all perma-weathers are still around three Suspect periods from now?
I don't even need to think about it. My answer is definitely not.
Side Note: Anyone who has read the main discussion forum for suspects will know my reasoning.
nkulueko: how exactly is it completely different? they both cause a major over centralization. what im trying to say is weather is a part of the game. yes it is a dominant part and some parts are broken(drizzle) but i don't believe it all is. banning all ov it would be a horrible idea imo. its a major part of this game and would hinder a few pokes and completely kill a couple. i would say weather has made more pokemon possible instead of the less. things like cradily get a chance to shine now.
Weather gives easy boosts to more than one type of pokemon. Steel is just a type, and if it became popular nobody would care because simply using fire/ground/fighting type moves or pokemon would beat them easily. Weater augments multiple pokemon's usefullness on both sides of the spectrum (offense and defense) and thus is better because it makes many pokemon better.
Overcentralization is only an issue when the over-centralziing factor is broken. Garchomp in Gen 4 is the best example of this because every useful team had to be built around a Garchomp, defeating opposing Garchomops, and countering Garchomp's counters. Garchomp was so dangerous on its own that an over-centralized meta was putting every team without it at an inherent disadvantage. On the other hand, if say, Magikarp was over-centralizing nobody would care. Even if Magikarp was on 99.9% of teams it'd still be beyond easy to counter. Over-centralization is a rather weak argument for banning and only applies if the subject is dominating in it's own right. For you analogy, steel types aren't that dangerous. If everybody had 3 or 4 steel types on a team then and of the dozens of fighting/fire/ground type moves could deal with them and it wouldn't be an issue.
I don't believe that all weather needs to be banned because only Drizzle and arguably Sandstream are broken. Drought is killed by Nintails and lol Hail. Btw, being a major part of the game isn't a good argument for something not to be banned. Swift Swim sweepers were a major part of the game in Round 2 and look where they ended up. And if weather makes more pokemon OU viable (Toxicroak/Politoed/Ninetails/Excadrill) then you must also look at the pokemon borderline broken by weather (Garchomp/Excadrill are constantly nominated, Latios with essentially STAB surfs, Politoed hitting hard with Hydro Pump, Ferrothorn losing a major weakness, Sp. Def Jirachi being a pain to take down, Kingdra/Ludicolo/Kabutops and Manaphy) then weigh the different options. What's more important, keeping 4 weather inducers, or banning 5+ pokemon that they overpower?
Warning this is waffle:
Do you know what, I really don't think Sand is broken at all. In fact Drizzle and Drought both bring much greater and more game changing advantages to a properly made team.
If instead of Tyranitar getting Sand Stream in Gen III, imagine if a bog standard Rock/Ground Pokemon like, I dunno, Golem got Sand Stream. Would Sandstorm have been nearly as prevalent? I doubt it. It would bring advantages to a stall team but abusing it offensively would be just as hard as trying to abuse Sun or Hail in the metagame now.
The fact is, Tyranitar is the no.1 Pokemon less because of Sand Stream and more because it has amazing stats, a stellar movepool, fantastic offensive STABs and he has a decent support movepool too.
Sand Stream is just the cherry on top because it eases the team building process where you can pair abusers such as Garchomp and Excadrill with him and his ability helps to make sure the weather is not something broken like Drizzle or Drought helping the opponent's team.
However, and this is a big however. Because Tyranitar is such an amazing Pokemon and because of its fantastic ability, the metagame has evolved into one where if you want to do well then you must have (or seriously consider) Tyranitar to change the weather (because he is the best and most versatile Sand Streamer) and once you've made that decision then the rest of the team starts to look like the usual suspects (i.e. the top 10 because they directly benefit or complement Sand). So the broken weathers, Drizzle and Drought, has driven everyone who is serious about winning to either use them or use the amazing Tyranitar and his top 10 entourage and this has really stifled the diversity of Pokemon in OU. I believe banning all weather would greatly diversify the metagame.
However, and this is a big however again, weather is clearly something that Gen 5 is all about, as the introduction of Drought and Drizzle by GameFreak shows so getting rid of it altogether would not be in the spirit of the game. I don't think there is a solution to this but what would like to say is: can we keep the weather wars but balance the weathers somehow to inject some diversity into the game?
This is the main point: XD
At this point I am really wondering if the metagame would look better without Tyranitar. It may sound crazy (I hope not!) but hear me out on this. Without Tyranitar there are 4 'average' Pokemon who induce permanent weather: Hippowdon, Politoed, Ninetales and Abomasnow. This means that maybe Sand won't be the dominant weather (I suspect Rain will be) and while Rain teams are invincible in rain, generally they are quite weak in any other weather and the main abusers (Toxicroak, Tornadus, Hydration walls, mono-Fire weakness, the list goes on) really depend on Rain to make them work, unlike Sand favourites such as Garchomp, Latios and co. who thrive in almost any weather. The same can be said for Sun in that they really suffer in any weather apart from Sun.
What I'm getting at is instead of seeing the 'standard' Sand team with Tyranitar, OU will remain a weather fest like GF may or may not have intended but there hopefully will be more diversity because sand team members will still be around but there will be an influx of new Pokemon who maybe didn't enjoy Sand being the dominant force. Sand is still part of the meta thanks to Hippo but now if you want to run a Sand team (or any weather) then you really have to think it through and try and make it work because none of the weather starters have semi-Uber stats and you don't get Sandstorm as a free toy with your Tyranitar Happy Meal anymore.
Do you know what, I really don't think Sand is broken at all. In fact Drizzle and Drought both bring much greater and more game changing advantages to a properly made team.
If instead of Tyranitar getting Sand Stream in Gen III, imagine if a bog standard Rock/Ground Pokemon like, I dunno, Golem got Sand Stream. Would Sandstorm have been nearly as prevalent? I doubt it. It would bring advantages to a stall team but abusing it offensively would be just as hard as trying to abuse Sun or Hail in the metagame now.
The fact is, Tyranitar is the no.1 Pokemon less because of Sand Stream and more because it has amazing stats, a stellar movepool, fantastic offensive STABs and he has a decent support movepool too.
Sand Stream is just the cherry on top because it eases the team building process where you can pair abusers such as Garchomp and Excadrill with him and his ability helps to make sure the weather is not something broken like Drizzle or Drought helping the opponent's team.
However, and this is a big however. Because Tyranitar is such an amazing Pokemon and because of its fantastic ability, the metagame has evolved into one where if you want to do well then you must have (or seriously consider) Tyranitar to change the weather (because he is the best and most versatile Sand Streamer) and once you've made that decision then the rest of the team starts to look like the usual suspects (i.e. the top 10 because they directly benefit or complement Sand). So the broken weathers, Drizzle and Drought, has driven everyone who is serious about winning to either use them or use the amazing Tyranitar and his top 10 entourage and this has really stifled the diversity of Pokemon in OU. I believe banning all weather would greatly diversify the metagame.
However, and this is a big however again, weather is clearly something that Gen 5 is all about, as the introduction of Drought and Drizzle by GameFreak shows so getting rid of it altogether would not be in the spirit of the game. I don't think there is a solution to this but what would like to say is: can we keep the weather wars but balance the weathers somehow to inject some diversity into the game?
This is the main point: XD
At this point I am really wondering if the metagame would look better without Tyranitar. It may sound crazy (I hope not!) but hear me out on this. Without Tyranitar there are 4 'average' Pokemon who induce permanent weather: Hippowdon, Politoed, Ninetales and Abomasnow. This means that maybe Sand won't be the dominant weather (I suspect Rain will be) and while Rain teams are invincible in rain, generally they are quite weak in any other weather and the main abusers (Toxicroak, Tornadus, Hydration walls, mono-Fire weakness, the list goes on) really depend on Rain to make them work, unlike Sand favourites such as Garchomp, Latios and co. who thrive in almost any weather. The same can be said for Sun in that they really suffer in any weather apart from Sun.
What I'm getting at is instead of seeing the 'standard' Sand team with Tyranitar, OU will remain a weather fest like GF may or may not have intended but there hopefully will be more diversity because sand team members will still be around but there will be an influx of new Pokemon who maybe didn't enjoy Sand being the dominant force. Sand is still part of the meta thanks to Hippo but now if you want to run a Sand team (or any weather) then you really have to think it through and try and make it work because none of the weather starters have semi-Uber stats and you don't get Sandstorm as a free toy with your Tyranitar Happy Meal anymore.
Nkululeko I'd like you to tell me why Ferrothorn, Garchomp, Scizor, Gliscor, Reuniclus, Heatran, Dragonite, Conkeldurr, Gengar, Thundurus, or Skarmory's positions would change that much if weather was completely banned.
Ferrothorn is still the resistant monster in the game.
Garchomp is just as much as a threat out of sand than in it, Sub SD is only a Minor loss that chomp can go without and maintain the same position.
Scizor is neutralized by bad weather for it not existing, and even stuff like Jellicent that's used to help check rain might fall, so it might even do better.
Gliscor is still one of the most annoying walls in the game.
Reuniclus is still Reuniclus, it is and always will be good.
Heatran gets the same neutralization as Scizor.
Dragonite doesn't need weather in the slightest, if anything it benefits from SS and Hail not chipping it now.
Conkeldurr is still the best fighting type in the game.
Gengar obviously lies out of weather altogether.
Thundurus doesn't even use Thunder most the time, and appreciates lack of SS Chip, same.
Skarmory still is the best way to Phaze and get spikes up. Team support is there for fires. Hell, Team support for ANYTHING else on this list that loses a resistance from Rain or sun.
So place-wise, 11/20 Mons would stay within the top 20, and probably in their relative locations if all weather was banned. Lets throw in stuff like Rain Resistances and Sand Veil, and we get that weather is influencing, say, 50% of the metagame, and not the drastically overstated 85% that you give.
Now if 50% of the metagame is too much is not for me to decide, and I will not argue on that. I'd just like to see less stretching of the facts, here.
Ferrothorn is still the resistant monster in the game.
Garchomp is just as much as a threat out of sand than in it, Sub SD is only a Minor loss that chomp can go without and maintain the same position.
Scizor is neutralized by bad weather for it not existing, and even stuff like Jellicent that's used to help check rain might fall, so it might even do better.
Gliscor is still one of the most annoying walls in the game.
Reuniclus is still Reuniclus, it is and always will be good.
Heatran gets the same neutralization as Scizor.
Dragonite doesn't need weather in the slightest, if anything it benefits from SS and Hail not chipping it now.
Conkeldurr is still the best fighting type in the game.
Gengar obviously lies out of weather altogether.
Thundurus doesn't even use Thunder most the time, and appreciates lack of SS Chip, same.
Skarmory still is the best way to Phaze and get spikes up. Team support is there for fires. Hell, Team support for ANYTHING else on this list that loses a resistance from Rain or sun.
So place-wise, 11/20 Mons would stay within the top 20, and probably in their relative locations if all weather was banned. Lets throw in stuff like Rain Resistances and Sand Veil, and we get that weather is influencing, say, 50% of the metagame, and not the drastically overstated 85% that you give.
Now if 50% of the metagame is too much is not for me to decide, and I will not argue on that. I'd just like to see less stretching of the facts, here.
I didn't claim their positions would change if all weather was banned at all. I said that in this weather dominated metagame the top used pokes had to be good in weather conditions, and I showed that. And I said Gengar was an exception, if you're going to try and use my words against me do me a favor and read them first.
I said 85% of the top twenty, stop taking my words out of context. And on that note, 50% of the meta by your estimate fits my argument of weather clearly dominating the meta.
Me too.
I never said dependent.
For The Last Time
I said that weather is clearly dominant in this metagame and showed how of the top twenty pokemon most are wither are efficient in/good under/receive boosts from/or in some way are more useful due to the prescence of weather. By implying that I meant 85% of the top 20 are weather-dependent you are again twisting my words and taking my claims out of context.