Poll: Would you still play in Smogon's OU if all perma-weather was banned?

[UltiMario]

Well then a Pokemon could get a good boost by sheer coincidence, like how Dragonite would've still been good if Politoed got some other DW ability, he'd still be sitting right there. It's just a nice convenient coincidence that gamefreak gave Politoed Drizzle to assist him in a few sets with moves like Hurricane, Surf, and Thunder.


Now 50% of top 20 usage "oh well in the long run it doesn't really matter, half of the top 20 would be the same anyways without weather."

If anything by arguing for how weather influences the top 20, you've also exposed how little it mixes up the top 20 because in the end it's all the same. Yes, while everything gets a boost, by eliminated weather everything loses the boost. It all evens out in the end. You've just banned 2-4 things and the result is basically the same usage with about all of 5-6 Pokemon actually shifting out, the other 15 would rise and fall, shift around, but they'd still be in the top 20. The 5 that change are TTar, Drill, Toed, (IMOS) Volcarona, Jellicent (And maybe starmie if things go sour for it, can never be sure). You've just quartered the diversity in strategy in the metagame and getting almost the exact same thing. What reason would you do something like that?

 

[KurashiDragon]

Well then a Pokemon could get a good boost by sheer coincidence, like how Dragonite would've still been good if Politoed got some other DW ability, he'd still be sitting right there. It's just a nice convenient coincidence that gamefreak gave Politoed Drizzle to assist him in a few sets with moves like Hurricane, Surf, and Thunder.


Now 50% of top 20 usage "oh well in the long run it doesn't really matter, half of the top 20 would be the same anyways without weather."

If anything by arguing for how weather influences the top 20, you've also exposed how little it mixes up the top 20 because in the end it's all the same. Yes, while everything gets a boost, by eliminated weather everything loses the boost. It all evens out in the end. You've just banned 2-4 things and the result is basically the same usage with about all of 5-6 Pokemon actually shifting out, the other 15 would rise and fall, shift around, but they'd still be in the top 20. The 5 that change are TTar, Drill, Toed, (IMOS) Volcarona, Jellicent (And maybe starmie if things go sour for it, can never be sure). You've just quartered the diversity in strategy in the metagame and getting almost the exact same thing. What reason would you do something like that?

I would like to ask how Jellecent would change at all. Also starmie for that matter. I do sorta get Starmie. It would have Double Stab Hydro Pump and perfect Acc thunder (Though Rotom-w would do this better so it still doesn't make sense) however, Jellecent doesn't really benefit from Rain. Maybe I can see it checking other rain teams with Water Absorb but other than that I don't really see the benefits.

 

[UltiMario]

Yeah I was thinking it falling a little bit because its not really checking rain anymore. It's really low so that'd probly be all it would take to drop out of top 20, It'd still be in top 25 or 30 though.

 

[Woodchuck]

Just posting to say that I agree with UltiMario and imho, Nkululeko, you've been overstating the impact of weather on the top 20 pokemon.

No, use common sense. The number of reasons are directly from weather for about 17 of them, that's 85% of the top 20.

(emphasis is mine)
That's strictly not true. Let's look at the top 20.

| 1 | Tyranitar | 119711 | 21.8169 | That's 1 used pretty much for weather
| 2 | Ferrothorn | 117960 | 21.4978 | Don't make me laugh. It benefits from weather but it certainly doesn't abuse it more than, say, Terrakion abuses sand for the special defense boost.
| 3 | Garchomp | 113074 | 20.6073 | Benefits from sand, but definitely would still be top 20 without it, so not what I'd call an "abuser"
| 4 | Scizor | 107394 | 19.5722 | Basically not affected by any weather significantly
| 5 | Gliscor | 87936 | 16.0260 | lol abusing sand it doesn't even get a boost (wee 6.25% damage we should ban hail too)
| 6 | Latios | 81312 | 14.8188 | Surf is boosted? therefore blissey is a sun abuser because flamethrower. Also, what's the most common thing you'll use Surf to hit? Tyranitar. You can't hit tyranitar in rain >.<
| 7 | Rotom-W | 74332 | 13.5467 | Boosted water attacks, but its solid typing and stats (and the fact that it's common on Sand teams) suggests to me that it would be top 20 anyways.
| 8 | Excadrill | 72129 | 13.1452 | 2nd true abuser
| 9 | Reuniclus | 68412 | 12.4678 | Literally unaffected by sand and hail and doesn't actually get a boost from sun or rain
| 10 | Heatran | 68095 | 12.4101 | Hits hard in sun but... still would be top 20? meh i give you 0.5 as Heatran is actually very good against sun teams (so that's 2.5 abusers so far)
| 11 | Jirachi | 65026 | 11.8507 | Does Thunder/Water Pulse count? Most Jirachi go paraflinch anyways
| 12 | Dragonite | 64329 | 11.7237 | Dragonite has better sets to run outside of Thunder/Hurricane and they don't do a whole lot for it
| 13 | Conkeldurr | 61359 | 11.1825 | Mach punch kills a whole lot of things outside Excadrill and that massive attack stat + guts means it's not going anywhere any time soon anyways
| 14 | Politoed | 59370 | 10.8200 | 3.5th (lol) abuser
| 15 | Gengar | 58717 | 10.7010 | Nope
| 16 | Skarmory | 54634 | 9.9568 | Nope
| 17 | Thundurus | 54391 | 9.9126 | Thunder doesn't help it much when it's hitting Blissey with Focus Blast and already can deal with Rotom-w with enough residual damage
| 18 | Jellicent | 49694 | 9.0565 | Nope (boosted scalds, lol)
| 19 | Starmie | 46790 | 8.5273 | Hits harder in rain so wee 0.5 point (4 abusers)
| 20 | Volcarona | 42924 | 7.8227 I'll give you this one because Morning Sun + crazily boosted fire moves make it sweep a lot easier (unfortunately it only adds to Sun's weakness to rocks)

That brings the count to a grand total of 5 pokemon used "directly because of weather" as you put it. That's pretty far from 17.

Out of the top 20 used pokemon, only one isn't a weather abuser. The data doesn't lie.

Yes I know this is from a past quote but I still need to point this out this is wrong. Which I did. Now I'm drawing attention to it.

The top twenty are staple weather members.

Maybe they're just staple pokemon? Because they're, you know, good? Scizor is good in sand. It's also good in rain. And sun. And hail. Whaddya know, it might just be good period.
Just because pokemon do well in the weather doesn't mean that they are there because they do well in the weather. It means they're good.

 

[yaya0]

Well, permaweather wasn't banned. We're safe for now.

 

[ShinySuicune]

Smogon needs to realize that there CANT be a counter to every single pokemon and strategy. The fact that more complex bans have to be made shows how badly Gen 4 is trying to be brought back. Idk who it was that said one ban leads to another but they are right.


-Swift Swim+Drizzle Got banned
That's one less counter to every other weather, and BLAZIKEN can play more easily.
-Blaziken got banned.
Excadrill/Tyranitar/Garchomp/Scizor dont have to worry about being OHKO'D now by +2 HJK/FB.

If Reuniclus got banned, one less counter Conkeldurr, who if he gets banned, one less counter to Excadrill.
Which would mean Sandstorm dominates.
The point here is banning more and more only leads to other bans. Theres 649 Pokemon, you cant stop every single one with a team of only 6. Weather is a playstyle, hell, even Gamefreak implemented a weather display on the battle screen and gave us alot of weather boosters.

"oh noes, x pokemon can now 2hko every single thing with y boost"

The same goes for any other form of boost. Nasty Plot/Shell Smash/Dragon Dance. Weather IS Gen 5.
and look at the poll, not even the majority of players would continue to play 5th gen smogon. it's just like last gen, where Latis was let in to Ou and when it got banned, Salamence usage rose because players wanted a Base 110 Sp.atk Draco Meteor user, who ended up getting banned too.

 

[Nkululeko]

Because they're, you know, good? Scizor is good in sand. It's also good in rain. And sun. And hail. Whaddya know, it might just be good period.

Scizor in Sun...Fail.

Just because pokemon do well in the weather doesn't mean that they are there because they do well in the weather. It means they're good.

In a weather prevalent metagame, it does mean they abuse weather. I posted to show weather's dominance and it is a dominant force and the usage stats show the pokemon used the most are good in weather

| 1 | Tyranitar | 119711 | 21.8169 | That's 1 used pretty much for weather

Right here, 21.8169% of the metagame is one weather. That's huge and people seem to be ignoring that.

| 2 | Ferrothorn | 117960 | 21.4978 | Don't make me laugh. It benefits from weather but it certainly doesn't abuse it more than, say, Terrakion abuses sand for the special defense boost.

I already said that I used the word abuser too much and that's shown by how about mid-post I started to not use it in place of "good in x-weather." And Ferrothorn benefits well in weather and in multiplee weathers. I said in a weather dominant metagame the top pokemon would have to be good in weather and the fact that they are is obvious. If you don't mind, "don't make me laugh?" I smell a troll...

| 3 | Garchomp | 113074 | 20.6073 | Benefits from sand, but definitely would still be top 20 without it, so not what I'd call an "abuser"

I call shenanigans. SubSDChomp is very popular right now and it's not abusing Sand Veil hax under Sun, Rain, or Clear Skies. It's only doing that under Sand and check the nomination thread if you think I'm the only one who noticed.

| 4 | Scizor | 107394 | 19.5722 | Basically not affected by any weather significantly

But it functions well in weather and in the top weather (Sand) where Steel types shine so there is a significant effect.

| 5 | Gliscor | 87936 | 16.0260 | lol abusing sand it doesn't even get a boost (wee 6.25% damage we should ban hail too)

I said lol it gets Sand Veil. That was a joke. It's good on Sand teams but most importantly it counters Excadrill. If you read my post earlier you'd see that I mentioned pokemon in a weather dominant metagame either benefit directly from or counter weather and too many of you are forgetting the countering aspect. If a pokemon/playstyle is dominant, then it's counters will be popular as well and that's part of why Gliscor is so high in usage. Come on, the top five are very popular either on Sand teams or countering them.

| 6 | Latios | 81312 | 14.8188 | Surf is boosted? therefore blissey is a sun abuser because flamethrower. Also, what's the most common thing you'll use Surf to hit? Tyranitar. You can't hit tyranitar in rain >.<

Blissey doesn't count because it's offenses are garbage and Latios can beat Ttar anyway. Latios' Surf hits hard under Rain and I listed it mainly because it has a role in Rain teams. Latios is mostly used just because Specs Draco Meteors poke holes in most of OU so I'll concede this one, but don't troll me with Blissey doing anything offensive outside of Seismic Toss or Counter

| 7 | Rotom-W | 74332 | 13.5467 | Boosted water attacks, but its solid typing and stats (and the fact that it's common on Sand teams) suggests to me that it would be top 20 anyways.

It's common on Sand teams because it counters Rain well. It counters a specific weather (which was the part of my argument conveniently ignored) and being common on Sand teams means it functions well in weather which is my point earlier.

| 8 | Excadrill | 72129 | 13.1452 | 2nd true abuser

I already said how abuser was the wrong term and this is about the fifth time I've said it.

| 9 | Reuniclus | 68412 | 12.4678 | Literally unaffected by sand and hail and doesn't actually get a boost from sun or rain

Focus Blast does a lot to pokes on Sand teams and I said good in Sand because it's great overall and immune to Sand's residual damage. Reuniclus used very common in Sand and that's because it's good in that weather.

| 10 | Heatran | 68095 | 12.4101 | Hits hard in sun but... still would be top 20? meh i give you 0.5 as Heatran is actually very good against sun teams (so that's 2.5 abusers so far)

0.5? It counters Sun (part B of my argument) and was not top twenty until Sand's dominance (partially due to Steel types) was known.

| 11 | Jirachi | 65026 | 11.8507 | Does Thunder/Water Pulse count? Most Jirachi go paraflinch anyways

Works well in Sand, some do run Thunder, and paraflinching is always great when you're opponent is taking residual damage while your not.

| 12 | Dragonite | 64329 | 11.7237 | Dragonite has better sets to run outside of Thunder/Hurricane and they don't do a whole lot for it

Point taken. I concede Dragonite as it's good overall and a select few use those moves.

| 13 | Conkeldurr | 61359 | 11.1825 | Mach punch kills a whole lot of things outside Excadrill and that massive attack stat + guts means it's not going anywhere any time soon anyways

This one is ridiculous. Conkeldurr has always been used to counter Sand abusers and Steel types(see what I did there, distinguishing) and actually rose bit in usage once the sheer number of Sand teams running around was known. Mach Punch is beating most of the things on Sand teams bar the occasional Reuniclus and the fact is it's always been used to counter Sand because of it's massive attack+guts. It counters Sand teams, a good fifth of the metagame.

| 14 | Politoed | 59370 | 10.8200 | 3.5th (lol) abuser

Inducer and I didn't only say abuser in the original post of the list. I made a few semantics errors but that wasn't one of them.

| 15 | Gengar | 58717 | 10.7010 | Nope

I said exception. You made it a point to say "nope" to trivialize what I said but completely ignore the fact that I said that myself.

| 16 | Skarmory | 54634 | 9.9568 | Nope

Oh yeah, because Skarm sucks in Sand, yeah right.

| 17 | Thundurus | 54391 | 9.9126 | Thunder doesn't help it much when it's hitting Blissey with Focus Blast and already can deal with Rotom-w with enough residual damage

Focus Blast also takes care of Ttar and some Steels when it decides to hit and Thunder is popular of Thundurus. It's one of the better pokemon on Rain teams because it gets the boost from what, 125 Base Sp Atk, base 120 Thunder with STAB that won't miss. That's a huge opportunity and a big reason it's high on the list and still under the Toed. It's great in rain.

| 18 | Jellicent | 49694 | 9.0565 | Nope (boosted scalds, lol)

I concede, I was wrong here.

| 19 | Starmie | 46790 | 8.5273 | Hits harder in rain so wee 0.5 point (4 abusers)

Stop trolling. It only hits hard under Rain. I didn't say only abusers now, counters and support count too when takling about pokemon good in weather wars

| 20 | Volcarona | 42924 | 7.8227 I'll give you this one because Morning Sun + crazily boosted fire moves make it sweep a lot easier (unfortunately it only adds to Sun's weakness to rocks)

Thank You.

So far we have about 7.5(troll decimals) pokemon used solely because of weather in the "abuser" category. On top of that we have 5 or 6 weather counters. 12.5-13.5 pokemon solely there because of weather.

I've made some mistakes on this thread in how I counted abusers but my logic what sound and simply misrepresented to a significant degree. I admit I was wrong, as I have multiple times now, get over it.

Edit: "look at the poll, not even the majority of players would continue to play 5th gen smogon"
The poll above says 62.23% would continue to play 5th Gen Smogon OU. What poll are you talking about.

 

[Aura Guardian]

In a weather prevalent metagame, it does mean they abuse weather. I posted to show weather's dominance and it is a dominant force and the usage stats show the pokemon used the most are good in weather

| 1 | Tyranitar | 119711 | 21.8169 | That's 1 used pretty much for weather

Right here, 21.8169% of the metagame is one weather. That's huge and people seem to be ignoring that.

No, that is not 21.8169% for weather. Tyranitar is good in and of itself, and weather is, for some (I don't know how many, but some is definite) people, a side-effect.

| 2 | Ferrothorn | 117960 | 21.4978 | Don't make me laugh. It benefits from weather but it certainly doesn't abuse it more than, say, Terrakion abuses sand for the special defense boost.

I already said that I used the word abuser too much and that's shown by how about mid-post I started to not use it in place of "good in x-weather." And Ferrothorn benefits well in weather and in multiplee weathers. I said in a weather dominant metagame the top pokemon would have to be good in weather and the fact that they are is obvious. If you don't mind, "don't make me laugh?" I smell a troll...

"have to be good in weather"

It's good in and of itself!

| 3 | Garchomp | 113074 | 20.6073 | Benefits from sand, but definitely would still be top 20 without it, so not what I'd call an "abuser"

I call shenanigans. SubSDChomp is very popular right now and it's not abusing Sand Veil hax under Sun, Rain, or Clear Skies. It's only doing that under Sand and check the nomination thread if you think I'm the only one who noticed.

Garchomp would still be popular without Sand Veil, I think. It's just that Sand made that set viable. I guess this can semi-count

Something to do with great attack, good speed, and good bulk.

| 4 | Scizor | 107394 | 19.5722 | Basically not affected by any weather significantly

But it functions well in weather and in the top weather (Sand) where Steel types shine so there is a significant effect.

Scizor would also be popular without weather, I think. Not being harmed by most of it is just icing on the cake.

| 5 | Gliscor | 87936 | 16.0260 | lol abusing sand it doesn't even get a boost (wee 6.25% damage we should ban hail too)

I said lol it gets Sand Veil. That was a joke. It's good on Sand teams but most importantly it counters Excadrill. If you read my post earlier you'd see that I mentioned pokemon in a weather dominant metagame either benefit directly from or counter weather and too many of you are forgetting the countering aspect. If a pokemon/playstyle is dominant, then it's counters will be popular as well and that's part of why Gliscor is so high in usage. Come on, the top five are very popular either on Sand teams or countering them.

Gliscor is also just plain good in and of itself.

Poison Heal, after all. And it's got just plain solid stats.

| 6 | Latios | 81312 | 14.8188 | Surf is boosted? therefore blissey is a sun abuser because flamethrower. Also, what's the most common thing you'll use Surf to hit? Tyranitar. You can't hit tyranitar in rain >.<

Blissey doesn't count because it's offenses are garbage and Latios can beat Ttar anyway. Latios' Surf hits hard under Rain and I listed it mainly because it has a role in Rain teams. Latios is mostly used just because Specs Draco Meteors poke holes in most of OU so I'll concede this one, but don't troll me with Blissey doing anything offensive outside of Seismic Toss or Counter

I have no comment, except that Blissey actually does have passable enough offenses to be something of a finisher for certain circumstances.

| 7 | Rotom-W | 74332 | 13.5467 | Boosted water attacks, but its solid typing and stats (and the fact that it's common on Sand teams) suggests to me that it would be top 20 anyways.

It's common on Sand teams because it counters Rain well. It counters a specific weather (which was the part of my argument conveniently ignored) and being common on Sand teams means it functions well in weather which is my point earlier.

Again, it's just got good stats. And typing. It beats what, more than half of the top 20? Yeah, I have a problem with the idea that weather is why it's used so much.

| 8 | Excadrill | 72129 | 13.1452 | 2nd true abuser

I already said how abuser was the wrong term and this is about the fifth time I've said it.

Ok.

| 9 | Reuniclus | 68412 | 12.4678 | Literally unaffected by sand and hail and doesn't actually get a boost from sun or rain

Focus Blast does a lot to pokes on Sand teams and I said good in Sand because it's great overall and immune to Sand's residual damage. Reuniclus used very common in Sand and that's because it's good in that weather.

"it's great overall"

| 10 | Heatran | 68095 | 12.4101 | Hits hard in sun but... still would be top 20? meh i give you 0.5 as Heatran is actually very good against sun teams (so that's 2.5 abusers so far)

0.5? It counters Sun (part B of my argument) and was not top twenty until Sand's dominance (partially due to Steel types) was known.

Or the metagame was still shifting. And probably still is, as people find what works. And I can think of a certain 'mon (Sawsbuck) that Heatran does not like facing against under the Sun.

| 11 | Jirachi | 65026 | 11.8507 | Does Thunder/Water Pulse count? Most Jirachi go paraflinch anyways

Works well in Sand, some do run Thunder, and paraflinching is always great when you're opponent is taking residual damage while your not.

Yes, but I think Thunder is for adapting to the team because risk v reward becomes a bit more balanced toward reward. If Jirachi didn't have Thunder, it would still be used. If it weren't for sand, Jirachi would still be used. So, this doesn't really count.

| 12 | Dragonite | 64329 | 11.7237 | Dragonite has better sets to run outside of Thunder/Hurricane and they don't do a whole lot for it

Point taken. I concede Dragonite as it's good overall and a select few use those moves.

Oh, and has anyone mentioned that Sand and Hail hurt Dragonite a lot, unless it doesn't even bother with Multiscale?

| 13 | Conkeldurr | 61359 | 11.1825 | Mach punch kills a whole lot of things outside Excadrill and that massive attack stat + guts means it's not going anywhere any time soon anyways

This one is ridiculous. Conkeldurr has always been used to counter Sand abusers and Steel types(see what I did there, distinguishing) and actually rose bit in usage once the sheer number of Sand teams running around was known. Mach Punch is beating most of the things on Sand teams bar the occasional Reuniclus and the fact is it's always been used to counter Sand because of it's massive attack+guts. It counters Sand teams, a good fifth of the metagame.

"and Steel types"

Also, take a look at its Base Attack and its Defense. That's a very good reason for it to be used so much. Also, it does not counter sand teams: take a look at Garchomp and Landorus. And again, the metagame is still settling... that accounts for fluctuations in usage right now.

| 14 | Politoed | 59370 | 10.8200 | 3.5th (lol) abuser

Inducer and I didn't only say abuser in the original post of the list. I made a few semantics errors but that wasn't one of them.

I agree.

| 15 | Gengar | 58717 | 10.7010 | Nope

I said exception. You made it a point to say "nope" to trivialize what I said but completely ignore the fact that I said that myself.

I don't think he was trivializing; I think he was being thorough.

| 16 | Skarmory | 54634 | 9.9568 | Nope

Oh yeah, because Skarm sucks in Sand, yeah right.

Skarmory is a good physical wall, has good recover, and has access to 2/3 hazards. It also can attack with *reasonable* power.

| 17 | Thundurus | 54391 | 9.9126 | Thunder doesn't help it much when it's hitting Blissey with Focus Blast and already can deal with Rotom-w with enough residual damage

Focus Blast also takes care of Ttar and some Steels when it decides to hit and Thunder is popular of Thundurus. It's one of the better pokemon on Rain teams because it gets the boost from what, 125 Base Sp Atk, base 120 Thunder with STAB that won't miss. That's a huge opportunity and a big reason it's high on the list and still under the Toed. It's great in rain.

I agree that Thundurus can be a Rain Abuser, but it also has just plain good speed, good special attack, a good enough movepool, and Prankster, which gives it a support role it can use.

| 18 | Jellicent | 49694 | 9.0565 | Nope (boosted scalds, lol)

I concede, I was wrong here.

No comment.

| 19 | Starmie | 46790 | 8.5273 | Hits harder in rain so wee 0.5 point (4 abusers)

Stop trolling. It only hits hard under Rain. I didn't say only abusers now, counters and support count too when takling about pokemon good in weather wars

Rapid Spin
Good Speed and Special Attack
-Hits hard outside of rain, I might note.
So, it can support outside of Rain, though Rain probably provided it some boost. However, Starmie is still a very good Pokemon, depending on your team.

| 20 | Volcarona | 42924 | 7.8227 I'll give you this one because Morning Sun + crazily boosted fire moves make it sweep a lot easier (unfortunately it only adds to Sun's weakness to rocks)

Thank You.

I won't give you that one, though. Volcarona is just plain good with Quiver Dance, and ChestoRest works fine for sweeping.

So far we have about 7.5(troll decimals) pokemon used solely because of weather in the "abuser" category. On top of that we have 5 or 6 weather counters. 12.5-13.5 pokemon solely there because of weather.

No, many of the pokemon there are just plain good, whether or not there's weather. Though Weather might have given them a boost.

I've made some mistakes on this thread in how I counted abusers but my logic what sound and simply misrepresented to a significant degree. I admit I was wrong, as I have multiple times now, get over it.

Edit: "look at the poll, not even the majority of players would continue to play 5th gen smogon"
The poll above says 62.23% would continue to play 5th Gen Smogon OU. What poll are you talking about.

*not really relevant to me*


Also: It's banned if it's broken, not if it changes the metagame. Ban something that changes the metagame, and something else or two somethings will rise up and change the metagame instead. It's the broken things that need to be banned, so the usage stats are actually irrelevant. I see that weather changes the metagame (though I dispute it having so great of an impact), but I don't see how it's broken.

 

[Progeusz]

Sorry for combo-breaking your beautiful 20+ quote pointless discussion but...
Weather abusers aren't restricted to top20. Almost EVERY Pokemon in existence can abuse weather. Or, even if not abuse it personally, weather can nerf it's counters.

Yes, I think perma-weather ban is retarded. Something should be done about Rain because it's easily the most powerful weather (double STAB for water types + 120 acc Thunder and MANY Rain abusing abilities), maybe something about Doryuuzu (only sand abuser which might be considered broken because of sand, Garchomp is irrelevant, because he's pretty close to being broken (or simply is) even without Sand) and that's it.
Sun? Chlorophyll users die to any Fire attack in Sun, Fire types are still weak to SR. Aslo, Sun has type disadvantage vs Rain and Sand. Banning Ninetales doesn't make any sense.

I voted for first option, however that doesn't mean that I think weather should be banned. If it is banned, whatever, I'm not some die-hard fan that can't play metagame without it. If it isn't banned, whatever, I can just play accordingly and use my own weather or some anti-weather. Not a problem, there are many options.
Look. Tyranitar, highest usage, 21.8169. 21.8169
Compare that to 30+ of Scizor for many months in row. yeah, I know, usage =/= broken, however these numbers still mean something. Metagame is pretty balanced right now.

 

[Stallion]

Personally, I think that permanent weather makes shit like Excadrill and Thundrus too centralising (although the latter is already ridiculous). If you're running a sand team and don't have 2 water resists, you are fucked if the opponent is even somewhat competent. Do you run set up sweepers who focus on speed and their attacking stat rather then bulky boosting? Kind of fruitless when your opponent has something with over 600 speed without set up and between 369-405 attack. Did I mention it could also switch attacks? Newsflash guys, just because ways to beat weather exist doesn't mean that it isn't broken. Remember how Chomp and the Lati's were banned because they were overcentralising, forcing people into running lots of Steels and creating the infamous Steel/Dragon metagame? We fucking have that now where every team is forced to use either weather or stall if they want to succeed (don't give me that shit about you've had "great success" with a non weather team when your peak is something like 1200). Granted, last test I was consistently at the top/amongst the top few for ladder with Smashpass but tbh in a healthy metagame a pseudo Baton Pass team should never win that consistently. I was able to do so because of the sheer centralisation of the metagame reducing the number of viable pokemon (case in point, amazing pokes like Salamence see no usage at all!). Yes this is a big rant but I know a lot of prominent players who are unhappy with weather staying to ruin the metagame for another round. I wish some people knew that OU is meant to be a balanced metagame without ridiculous amounts of overcentralisation (having said that there needs to be some to a degree seeing as the best pokemon should get the most usage of course), not ubers lite...

 

[skitz0phrenic]

Well, perma-weather is still here and OU still sucks.

The real title of this thread should be "If perma-weather doesn't get banned, why the hell would you want to keep playing Smogons OU?"

I personally can't find a reason. It's the most limited, predictable, and centralized tier by far (the addition of team preview made this infinitely worse). Gen 5 is still practically brand new and OU is already boring as hell at this point. I thought Gen 4 had become pretty stale by mid 2010, simply because it had run it's life expectancy, but this is already even worse. I hate to be such a pessimist, but I feel it's only a matter of time before people come to their senses and stop holding this metagame back from its true potential.

 

[Woodchuck]

Sorry for combo-breaking your beautiful 20+ quote pointless discussion but...
Weather abusers aren't restricted to top20. Almost EVERY Pokemon in existence can abuse weather. Or, even if not abuse it personally, weather can nerf it's counters.

This. I agree with you, Nkukuleko, that almost all of the top 20 are good in weather. (or counter weather) But that's not necessarily the only reason why they're top 20. (I interpreted your stating that weather was the "direct reason" as "only reason" so if I'm wrong here please tell me, then respond to my post ignoring the semantics :/)

Like, for instance, Skarmory. I doubt you could say Skarmory is in the top-20 position because "it's good in sand".

Oh yeah, because Skarm sucks in Sand, yeah right.

I didn't say it wasn't good in sand. I simply said that being good in sand wasn't the reason that Skarmory was top-20. Its typing and physical defensiveness are why it's top-20. Being good in sand is just a byproduct of being good.

The thing is, what a lot of your arguments for pokemon abusing weather being good in weather is that they're immune to the residual damage. But most offensive pokemon don't care, and the defensive ones carry Lefties.

I'm sorry I sounded derisive and troll-like at times, by the way.

Anyways, yes, weather gives boosts to a large portion of OU, but not to the extent that it's broken. Your reasons for a pokemon abusing being good in some weathers seem not strong enough to make weather broken. Yes Rotom-W counters rain teams. So? Magnezone countered Skarmory last gen and continues to do it this gen. Simply having a counter to a team archetype doesn't mean it's broken. In fact, it should mean the opposite. If you have a pokemon that gives you an excellent way to deal with an entire team, then I wouldn't say that team is broken. But I digress, this isn't a Rotom-W discussion.

Just because a pokemon is there because it counters a top threat doesn't mean the top threat is broken. I think you'll agree with me that all of the pokemon in the top 20 are good pokemon in their own right. Do you remember the suspect testing period before Aldaron's Proposal? Rain teams were broken back then, because their counters were insufficient. The counters aren't insufficient here. With almost any given well-built team, you have the potential of winning. The game isn't unplayable.

In my opinion, people are mistaking "difficult to play against" with "broken." We're not trying to find the perfect metagame, we're just trying to ban things until it's balanced enough to play. This brings to mind this thread in Policy Review.

 

[Supermutant6112]

Quite honestly, I think the world would've been a better place if Sand STream, Drizzle, Drought, and Hail Warning were never invented. Put me down as a h*ll yeah!

 

[Progeusz]

Personally, I think that permanent weather makes shit like Excadrill and Thundrus too centralising

That's why we should simply ban these Pokemon. Excadrill without Sandstorm won't be OU, so there's no difference. For sure it's better than banning both Tyranitar and Hippowdon (especially considering that SS doesn't do much except for turning Excadrill into broken monster and boosting not very used Landorus).
Thundurus doesn't care at all whether there is some whether or not. Damn, he doesn't have even a single Rain affected move slashed somewhere in his movesets in the analysis. Only Thunder in OO.

 

[jds24]

I voted other.

I would still keep playing in Smogon's OU just because it was Smogon OU. It is THE tier to play in. If weather was banned I would be quite angry. (You should probably add an option - Would keep playing Smogon, but not happy about it).

 

[assassinfred]

I run Ferrothorn perfectly fine in my weather-free team, thank you very much. Ferrothorn is a beast, in weather or not. The Curse set that I run destroys, and I've seen a Hone Claws set my friend runs destroy as well. Christ, saying Ferrothorn is a weather abuser is very incorrect.

 

[Woodchuck]

I voted other.

I would still keep playing in Smogon's OU just because it was Smogon OU. It is THE tier to play in. If weather was banned I would be quite angry. (You should probably add an option - Would keep playing Smogon, but not happy about it).

To be honest I don't know how to edit the poll options,

Hide

PLEASE MODS HELP ME

and that probably would be a good idea, but the main idea of this poll was to see the split of the player base.
Besides, everyone who wanted that option hit "other" anyways.

I run Ferrothorn perfectly fine in my weather-free team, thank you very much. Ferrothorn is a beast, in weather or not. The Curse set that I run destroys, and I've seen a Hone Claws set my friend runs destroy as well. Christ, saying Ferrothorn is a weather abuser is very incorrect.

To be fair, Nkukuleko admitted he was misusing the term "weather abuser" in that case. Ferrothorn is very good in every weather (except sun and hail) but I agree it's not an abuser.

 

[Ninjadolphin]

I would play on smogon a lot more if there was no weather. However, i think they should just add clear skies instead of banning it from ou.

 

[IkeroFaron]

I played OU for a while and I tried to use the lesser used OU pokes and I kept getting destroyed by weather. Almost every team is weather with the exact same Pokemon in it. They should just make a cut-off of the pokes that can be used in OU and then a different tier for those of you who like having blan battles. Unless they ban weather in OU I'm probably not going to return to playing it and stay in the comfortable UU tier.

 

[UltiMario]

Nkululeko, I was even going to make a post about how not to point out Scizor in sun isn't bad any anyone who point it out as a fail is an idiot, but I decided against it. Clearly I made the wrong decision.

When you're already 4x weak to fire and not really bulky enough to take the fire hits anyways, being 6x weak to fire means no different, and now you have arguably the best steel pivot in the game, and a bonus psudo water-resist on it, as well as a Pokemon that can scare TTar quite well. Scizor in fact CAN work well in sun.

:/

 

[mamoswineFTW]

One thing that would probably occur with having a separate tier for weatherless would be that Smogon OU would simply become a TOTALLY weather oriented tier, with anti-weather being the other type of team. Matches would simply be a battle for control of weather, moreso than anything else, degenerating from what make Smogon OU what it is.

I don't have a proposal for how to deal with weather, other than just DEALING with it. For a while, I even ran a team with a SwSw, Chlorophyll and Sand Rusher just for the hell of it. If a particular team of yours has trouble dealing with a specific weather, there's nothing to stop you from adjusting it. Perma-weather is a part of the metagame, and I'm of the belief that we should accept that.

I no longer use weather-based teams, but am still able to fight them if the opportunity arises. If you want to make a team with your favourite pokemon, and find that Sand just ruins it? Well, substitute another pokemon in for one of those. Use a Prankster Rain Dance Tornadus/Thundurus. Hell, Ninjask is ridiculously fast and gets Sandstorm. Whimsicott with Prankster Sunny Day.

My point is that you can always change the weather yourself if your team has a problem with it. I know it may seem like wasting a moveslot on a pokemon, but if you have trouble dealing with perma-weather, it is an option. Also, in team preview if your opponent doesn't see a 'normal' weather-inducer, they may be less careful with their own. Net the KO, change weather, Bob's your Uncle.

 

[Fuchsia]

Don't forget that steel types lose part of their fire weakness in rain, and even pokes that are 4x weak(scizor, ferrothorn, forretress), can't really be handled by hp fire anymore.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

The consensus is that Scizor doesn't really bother in rain or sun. He's going to die from fire attacks anyway without sun, but in rain he can survive a HP fire or two.

 

[internet]

whereas CB scizor doesn't really give a shit about the weather, sun would actually benefit SD scizor more then rain does, because it's much more useful to semi-resist scald (and surf, and waterfall) then to not die from random HP fires.

 

[BloodGod22]

No.
This is not chess its a pokemon simulator, no matter how much or what we ban this game will never be balanced.