Actually it doesn't matter if you semi-resist Scald because once that 30% chance of burn kicks in Scizor is as good as fodder.
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Poll: Would you still play in Smogon's OU if all perma-weather was banned?
- Thread starter Woodchuck
- Start date
doesn't that imply that Scizor is an excellent counter to sun teams, which it obviously isn't due to random shenanigans like Solar Power Charizard and the like.
No. It implies that he can be excellent revenge killer to Sun teams. There's no fire priority move, so Scizor is always faster + Sun abusers usually don't invest much into HP/Defense. If they've taken any prior damage, BP can KO them (of course, not all of them, Volcarona can't be touched, Heatran only with Superpower). He can also come in on predicted Grass attacks.
Nice idea, would be really helpful.
That's a very good point actually. Making a Clear Skies tier for the bunch of people who aren't happy with the weather would ruin it for the majority of people who don't care.
This Clear Skies thing should not not be created. It will just end up being 4th Gen with Conkeldurr and Ferrothorn added to it anyway. If you don't like weather, just go play 4th Gen.
The Meta would be much more interesting without all the permanent weather. At least a Clear Skies option would be nice, for all the people who just LOVE Sand or Rain (since Sun and Hail don't get much love). I could play 4th Gen, but honestly you can still run Sand in it without Poison Heal on Gliscor. Other than that, virtually all the pokemon remain unchanged.
You can't ban permanent weather. It wasn't banned in the 4th gen with Tyranitar and that hail starting guy. Why ban it now?
That's not what he's asking, read the topic and first post.
I would be interested in seeing usage stats and stuff from a weatherless tier. If just to test these mythical waters
People who dislike weather need to learn to play tanky disruption Altaria. Drop in on the weather user with Cloud Nine and either block/toxic or whirlwind them for hilarious times all around.
Smogon's OU is already like this. Every good team is either running weather or has dual screens so they can afford the extra setup time a non-weather sweeper needs to compete. I really wanted to believe that it was possible to make an excellent team without weather, so I asked a bunch of players from the top fifty. Not one of them has seen at team with no weather and no dual sceens at the top of the ladder. I think that says something about the metagame. God forbid should Deoxys get the boot, that's pretty much another style of play gone. Espeon is sucky because it's not fast enough to ensure it will get a screen up before it gets KO'd.
That, however, is not the thing I most detest about the current metagame. The thing I hate above everything else is the way it stifles creativity. There have been a lot of complaints going around about the fact that any average player can pick something up from the RMT forum and ladder o voting reqs with it. Why is this possible? It's because there is no creativity, and so therefore a solid team will fit one of five templates. If you make sure you can beat those five templates (which is unfortunately extremely difficult without weather of your own and relatively easy with a well built (read cookie cutter) weather team) you have a good shot of hitting the top fifty. Everybody is using similar sets, too, because the best set has degenerated into which set manages to benefit most from weather.
Weather is killing he creative side of Pokemon. The only creative sets anyone can reasonably use are anti-weather creatve sets, which basically consists of cloud nine, retarded scarfers and random shit with agility.
In the last suspect thread, someone posted a simple note that I think is hugely relevant. "A Pokemon or Strategy because detrimental when the best way to defeat it is to use it yourself." Well, that's weather right there.
Nw, this post isn't an argumet to simply ban all weather and call it a day. I don't think that would be hugely helpful. In truth, I'm not quite sure what the best way to fix all of these problems is. The thing I most want gone is Drizzle. Politoed alone makes a specially defensive water resist mandatory, and pairing it with pretty much any other strong water type essentially requires two, unless that Water resist hpens to be a Rotom-W that is more able to scare off water types rather than simply sponging the attack and then pivoting to something threatening. The exception to this rule is of course Pokemon that are immune to water, which is pretty much Jellicent Vaporeon and Gastrodon if we want something with utility outside of simply absorbing water. I won't deny that they're good pokemon, but they certaintly only fit on a more defensive team. (You could argue for Specs Gastrodon/Vaporeon, but really they're not so great.)
I guess my message throughout this argument is that with a metgame as heavily focussed on one aspect (ie weather) as ours is, a necessity for every team to reflect that fact essentially kills anything creative which does not overall contribute something weather-related to the team, whether that be checking opposing weather sweepers or abusing weather itself.
TL;DR: Weather and the measures that have arose to stopit have killed creativity, turing our metagame into a land of cookie-cutter. If you complained about newbies being able to pick up a random successful team from the RMT forum, the solution is not to make it harder to qualify but to kill the thing that allows those teams to be picked up and run through everything.
Stratos
Banned deucer.
Creativity is always going to be stifled. Some things will naturally outclass others. Just because you'll have a /different/ creativity-stifling meta doesn't mean it's a better creativity-stifling meta.
^true :D
Altaria doesnt learn Block nor Whirlwind tho (it does get Roar and Perish Song for phazing)
But yea, I'd probably play anyway. Having an option for non-weather matches would probably be the best though.
The problem with using Altaria is that all of the inducers except Ninetails can just kill it anyway. It's not even that great with a scarf since you don't come near killing Excadrill with Fire Blast, who's pretty much the reason you'd want to use it.
@Pwnemon: Late 4th gen did not stifle creativity. There were plenty of unorthodox teams which worked extremely well, and creative sets were on most every team. This gen, few Pokemon ever use more than one or two sets, and the top twenty makes up 85% of all good teams. I'm not saying 4th gen should be our target, but the freedom to be creative was a thousand times greater when there was no weather forcing everything to be cookie cutter.
@Pwnemon: Late 4th gen did not stifle creativity. There were plenty of unorthodox teams which worked extremely well, and creative sets were on most every team. This gen, few Pokemon ever use more than one or two sets, and the top twenty makes up 85% of all good teams. I'm not saying 4th gen should be our target, but the freedom to be creative was a thousand times greater when there was no weather forcing everything to be cookie cutter.
Exactly, LATE gen4, this is still an early time in the metagame. We have to find ways to deal w/ weather before we can tweak such things and I don't think we are there yet.
ah smogons politburo trying to preserve their obsolete style of stall first blaziken now permaweather whats next some dragons ,wobbuffet who knows?
I'm pretty sure that a scizor with one swords dance has an identical damage output to a burnt one with three.
That's right but what's the point? That he's still usable, especially with Roost?
Standard Ttar vs 252/4/252 Altaria:
Ice Beam - 62% - 73%
Crunch - 34% - 40%
Scarf Politoed, Timid/Modest:
Ice beam - 63% - 75% / 70% - 83%
Hippowdon, 0/0:
Ice Fang - 63% - 75%
So yeah, Altaria isn't the best way to deal with weather inducers.
Is there any problems in the creation of a seperate, weatherless, tier?
Let Drizzle be banned in regular OU along with Drought and Sand Stream if you so wish, but I think that a completely seperate, weatherless tier would be good for everyone willing to escape the weather teams that they end up fighting at least 40% of the time, maybe more.
It's true, weather conditions are a part of Pokemon battling, that's undeniable.
But a seperate "weatherless OU" (and perhaps a weatherless UU too, but it's not that big of a deal over there) without the three perma-weather abilities would satisfy most parties involved in this little debate.
So to summarize: weatherless tier first, then do what you want to weather-allowed OU.
Let Drizzle be banned in regular OU along with Drought and Sand Stream if you so wish, but I think that a completely seperate, weatherless tier would be good for everyone willing to escape the weather teams that they end up fighting at least 40% of the time, maybe more.
It's true, weather conditions are a part of Pokemon battling, that's undeniable.
But a seperate "weatherless OU" (and perhaps a weatherless UU too, but it's not that big of a deal over there) without the three perma-weather abilities would satisfy most parties involved in this little debate.
So to summarize: weatherless tier first, then do what you want to weather-allowed OU.
tbh i would still play. Weather is just how the game is and just means that it involves skill to win.
I personally think that weather (although can be one of the most annoying aspects) makes the meta game interesting and it isn't like its unbeatable becuase it is, just means that when you beat one, you get more of a sense of achievement.
=D
I personally think that weather (although can be one of the most annoying aspects) makes the meta game interesting and it isn't like its unbeatable becuase it is, just means that when you beat one, you get more of a sense of achievement.
=D
They already slaughtered most of my weather teams anyway, first by banning Swift Swim + Drizzle, and now Garchomp is gone. The only one of my really good teams this hasn't affected is my Venomoth/Nidoking team so I wouldn't really care. :P
Although my indifference may stem from the fact that I'd much rather be playing UU than OU to begin with anyway. ;D
Although my indifference may stem from the fact that I'd much rather be playing UU than OU to begin with anyway. ;D
I haven't been playing OU at all lately because I got sick of the weather wars and the monotone teams and have temporarily migrated to RU. It's looking like it's gonna stay that way too because I can see weather staying and there is absolutely nothing to tempt me back to OU. At this point I think it would be interesting to see how many people have already stopped playing OU because of weather.