Stealth Rock Discussion

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Charizard happens to have Dragon Dance, Swords Dance, and the infamous Belly Drum, as well as the specs set having explosive power under the sun. However, at best I would expect it to be around ~35 in usage.
Charizard also has like base 84 Attack. That's really, really horrible. Even Haxorus can be walled with its amazing base 147 Attack, why do you think Charizard of all things would be good? Belly Drum is also terrible, far too easy to be revenge killed by any Scarfer, any priority user or anything with more than base 100 Speed.
 
Lol @ argument saying SR made Zapdos down.

That's complete BS, its Thundurbro's fault that Zapdos is in UU, because Zapdos has been outclassed. SR and Zapdos existed for 1 generation together, the mechanics for SR didn't even change, so how is SR the fault of Zapdos being UU? That's just plain dumb.

Moltres, Articuno and Charizard are down in the lower tiers because of SR? Why isn't Volcarona down there? That's even worse.

I cannot imagine what kind of argument would be here today if SR was Ice-typed instead. Every single dragon in the game not called Kingdra just got nerf'd, hooray. >.> SR is a part of the metagame, and if you don't know how to deal with SR, learn to deal with it.

As I said earlier, I'd say it again: Even if SR doesn't exist, if your team has a gaping Rock weakness, its just an invitation for something fast to come in and completely murder you with Stone Edges, and you'd be forced to rely on a 20% chance to miss every time. If your team is raped by SR, change your team members so that you won't have that big of a Rock weakness.

Also, nice LOL at the Rapid Spin TM argument. Rapid Spin Tyranitar would troll the fuck out of the entire metagame.
 
Lol @ argument saying SR made Zapdos down.

That's complete BS, its Thundurbro's fault that Zapdos is in UU, because Zapdos has been outclassed. SR and Zapdos existed for 1 generation together, the mechanics for SR didn't even change, so how is SR the fault of Zapdos being UU? That's just plain dumb.

Moltres, Articuno and Charizard are down in the lower tiers because of SR? Why isn't Volcarona down there? That's even worse.

I cannot imagine what kind of argument would be here today if SR was Ice-typed instead. Every single dragon in the game not called Kingdra just got nerf'd, hooray. >.> SR is a part of the metagame, and if you don't know how to deal with SR, learn to deal with it.

As I said earlier, I'd say it again: Even if SR doesn't exist, if your team has a gaping Rock weakness, its just an invitation for something fast to come in and completely murder you with Stone Edges, and you'd be forced to rely on a 20% chance to miss every time. If your team is raped by SR, change your team members so that you won't have that big of a Rock weakness.

Also, nice LOL at the Rapid Spin TM argument. Rapid Spin Tyranitar would troll the fuck out of the entire metagame.
ttar's got the turning circle of a truck, it'd be like letting pichu learn superpower by move tutor. its just a common complaint is that there's about 3 rapid spinners in ou so would be interesting if there was more
 
ttar's got the turning circle of a truck, it'd be like letting pichu learn superpower by move tutor. its just a common complaint is that there's about 3 rapid spinners in ou so would be interesting if there was more
So? It's not like the world will end if you use Starmie, Forry or Hitmontop. Use a spinner if you have to.
 
The thing that irks me the most about Stealth Rock is the type discrimination. If there were stuff like Stealth Grass/Stealth Fire/Stealth Ice and so on it wouldn't be a problem at all, but no, we are only given Stealth Rock and suddenly everything weak to Stealth Rock is at a severe disadvantage. That aside, some skillful ability to spin away Stealth Rock and get rid of Ghost types does alleviate the problem of Stealth Rock weak Pokemon somewhat, although it is still a weakness they would rather not have.
 
The thing that irks me the most about Stealth Rock is the type discrimination. If there were stuff like Stealth Grass/Stealth Fire/Stealth Ice and so on it wouldn't be a problem at all, but no, we are only given Stealth Rock and suddenly everything weak to Stealth Rock is at a severe disadvantage. That aside, some skillful ability to spin away Stealth Rock and get rid of Ghost types does alleviate the problem of Stealth Rock weak Pokemon somewhat, although it is still a weakness they would rather not have.
If you think about it, RSE Spikes was even worse considering that not a single spinner was immune to it, aside from Claydol and Delibird.
 

alexwolf

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Latias wasn't banned because it lolovercentralized the metagame. Latias was centralizing because it was powerful and popular, but it was banned because it was decided that something it could do was broken. A team of 6 Arceus would never happen in OU because Arceus is BROKEN. Stealth Rock isn't BROKEN.

Scizor was centralizing. It was very threatening and very popular, so if your team didn't have a way to deal with it, you probably didn't do well. That is the definition of centralization; however, not everything that's centralizing is broken.
You failed so miserably to understand the point that gness is nice made....He talks to you about species clause and all you have to say is about arcues???So what about all the other same species pokes that i can't use in conjuction and are not broken???Why are those banned??Can you guess???
Because variety is a wanted thing for a desirable metagame!!!And sr limits greatly this variety...
It is really simple to get it but you just have to actually read what others post...
I don't want SR banned for other reasons,but if it was only about limiting variety then i would totally support the banning of it...But it so infuriating to see people like you to fail to understand the biggest problem with sr...
Limits variety and doesn't have enough viable counters(the second reason is not absolute it is just my opinion but it is a fact that SR linits variety GREATLY)!!!Of course sr doesn't only do that and that's why i don't want it banned...

Lol @ argument saying SR made Zapdos down.

That's complete BS, its Thundurbro's fault that Zapdos is in UU, because Zapdos has been outclassed. SR and Zapdos existed for 1 generation together, the mechanics for SR didn't even change, so how is SR the fault of Zapdos being UU? That's just plain dumb.

Moltres, Articuno and Charizard are down in the lower tiers because of SR? Why isn't Volcarona down there? That's even worse.
Volcarona isn't there because it is an amazing poke that would propably be uber if not for sr.This just shows how much sr infuences the metagame.If a poke with amazing sweeping stats,the better boosting move and nice typing(it has a perfect typing if you take out the sr weakness)is needed to outweight the cons that sr brings then this should really show something...Of course all the other 4x sr weak pokes are not as good as volcarona but that doesn't mean that they should be overlooked...

I cannot imagine what kind of argument would be here today if SR was Ice-typed instead. Every single dragon in the game not called Kingdra just got nerf'd, hooray. >.> SR is a part of the metagame, and if you don't know how to deal with SR, learn to deal with it.
This is the reason that i posted...Saying something is a part of the metagame so you have to deal with it is a very dumb and meaningless statement.
You could easily say this for sleep clause,ohko moves and every ban that has been made...
So why didn't we deal with all these things???
'Cause we make the game!If sr was found to be broken you wouldn't say it is fine so deal with it...Just because now sr doesn't have any chance of being banned doesn't give you the right to act so arrogant and say shitty arguments like the one above...
It would be much better if you just tried to understand the points that some people here are making and discuss them instead of acting like the i-know-everyhting-guy telling bs like it is part of the game so deal with it....

As I said earlier, I'd say it again: Even if SR doesn't exist, if your team has a gaping Rock weakness, its just an invitation for something fast to come in and completely murder you with Stone Edges, and you'd be forced to rely on a 20% chance to miss every time. If your team is raped by SR, change your team members so that you won't have that big of a Rock weakness.

Also, nice LOL at the Rapid Spin TM argument. Rapid Spin Tyranitar would troll the fuck out of the entire metagame.
And finally your rock weak team example is a huge failure!I could easily have a team with two 4x weak pokes to rock or three 2x weak pokes to rock and still do pretty well 'cause i cover the weaknesses with the rest of my team if it wasn't for sr.But with sr those kind of teams are imidiately a no no...

Jesus, just let this shit die.
I thought that only posts that contributed to the subject of the OP were allowed...We have a point that we are discussing!!!Who are you to mock and hummiliate our point in such a way???
 
You failed so miserably to understand the point that gness is nice made....He talks to you about species clause and all you have to say is about arcues???So what about all the other same species pokes that i can't use in conjuction and are not broken???Why are those banned??Can you guess???
Because variety is a wanted thing for a desirable metagame!!!And sr limits greatly this variety...
It is really simple to get it but you just have to actually read what others post...
I don't want SR banned for other reasons,but if it was only about limiting variety then i would totally support the banning of it...But it so infuriating to see people like you to fail to understand the biggest problem with sr...
Limits variety and doesn't have enough viable counters(the second reason is not absolute it is just my opinion but it is a fact that SR linits variety GREATLY)!!!Of course sr doesn't only do that and that's why i don't want it banned...
First of all, I don't care what his reasoning is for mentioning Arceus. Arceus is still counted as a single species of Pokemon, so it breaks the species clause to have more than one on a team. There was no reason for bringing it up...

Second of all, the "limiting variety" argument is worthless. Pick out an OU Pokemon and I am positive that it severely limits variety, either by outclassing other Pokemon in the lower tiers or making it dangerous to use them. It's unavoidable. If we banned everything that limited variety, we'd end up banning 1/2 of all Pokemon, including everything in OU.
 
If You really think deeply enough, every battle is mainly 3 things, Strategy,Patience, and Luck, however, stealth rock requires none of those to be far too threatening. It requires no strategy because It's often done on the 1rst turn and lasts throughout the entire game. It requires no patience because it only takes one turn to set up. And it takes no luck because it lasts one turn and does fixed damage every time it works, including also doing monstrous amounts to certain pokemon(50% to charizard is absolutely insane) it also has no small chance of doing something else, always dealing fixed damage.
 
If You really think deeply enough, every battle is mainly 3 things, Strategy,Patience, and Luck, however, stealth rock requires none of those to be far too threatening. It requires no strategy because It's often done on the 1rst turn and lasts throughout the entire game. It requires no patience because it only takes one turn to set up. And it takes no luck because it lasts one turn and does fixed damage every time it works, including also doing monstrous amounts to certain pokemon(50% to charizard is absolutely insane) it also has no small chance of doing something else, always dealing fixed damage.
A basic element of competitive play is the tactic/counter tactic/counter counter tactic matchup. Stealth Rock, Rapid Spin, Ghost types. Need I say more?
 
First of all, I don't care what his reasoning is for mentioning Arceus. Arceus is still counted as a single species of Pokemon, so it breaks the species clause to have more than one on a team. There was no reason for bringing it up...

Second of all, the "limiting variety" argument is worthless. Pick out an OU Pokemon and I am positive that it severely limits variety, either by outclassing other Pokemon in the lower tiers or making it dangerous to use them. It's unavoidable. If we banned everything that limited variety, we'd end up banning 1/2 of all Pokemon, including everything in OU.
But we're not talking about pokemon, we're talking about a move.

If 90% of teams started running Scizor, for example, then you'd have to build your team around killing Scizor; while that's still a pain, Scizor still has an easily defined set of weaknesses that you can exploit. And I imagine that if 90% of teams were running Scizor, it would probably become suspect. But Stealth Rock is a move, and one with a fairly large distribution at that (thanks to the Gen IV TM). It has exactly three counters: Taunt, Mirror Coat/Guard (only to prevent it from getting on the field) and Rapid Spin. Taunt has a decent distribution, but Mirror Coat is a lot smaller, and Rapid Spin is extremely limited.

Most teams have a SR inducer, but there isn't one pokemon that most teams use. You can count on SR severely limiting variety way more than anything else.
 

alexwolf

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@poke montage
Exactly what gneiss said!!!Every poke limits variety this is true...But at the same time it increases variety in the form of the new checks and counters to this poke....But sr's counters and checks are few and not reliable.Also sr users can sometimes be very unexpected as their standart set won't have sr but you can always put it to have the elemnt of surprise...F.e.Not many things are willing to taunt a heatran and not many espeon's are eager to switch into a fire blast....So the only true counter to sr is rapid spin which has like 50 times worse distribution...
 
But we're not talking about pokemon, we're talking about a move.
...and? If you're weak to one of the most commonly used moves, you have to find a way to work around it. If you're going to use Probopass, you'd better have a way of dealing with Ground and Fighting type moves. If you're using any Psychic type, you have to find a way to deal with Tyranitar's Crunch. Like those moves, Stealth Rock is very threatening to some Pokemon and not too bad for others.

If you're using a team that's heavily Stealth Rock weak, then you have no choice but to find a way to counter it. There are always consequences of picking certain Pokemon. It's called strengths vs. weaknesses. If you refuse to work around the weaknesses, you pick something else.

Just because there isn't an infinite amount of ways to deal with something doesn't mean that something is broken. Taunt, as you said, gets good distribution. Espeon and Xatu have Magic Bounce. If you insist on using something like Charizard, then it should simply be second nature to have your team incorporate a Rapid Spinner. There aren't many of them, but there are ones that are perfectly usable in OU. People have run teams without Rapid Spin and they do fine - they just don't pick lots of Pokemon that scream "I get destroyed by floating boulders."
 
The stupidest thing about Stealth Rock last generation when it was introduced was that for the multitude of pokemon that now had an entry hazard nothing was immune to to abuse, literally nothing new got Rapid Spin, and to troll everyone the only way other way to remove it was Defog, except it only got rid of your own (name a secondary effect that makes less sense both in terms of flavor and any actual use and there's a pizza I'm making here for you). Of course, the thing is Rapid Spin isn't the only way to deal with rocks, and if an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, well there's tons of prevention available in OU. Have there been any tournaments this generation to see what a metagame without stealth rock would be like? Entry hazards really can't singlehandedly bring down any pokemon, except for maybe choiced pokemon weak to them, so I really doubt there's anything that all of a sudden would become super good without stealth rock, even stuff like Volcarona (who I think scientifically is proven to take the most residual damage possible).
 
This is the reason that i posted...Saying something is a part of the metagame so you have to deal with it is a very dumb and meaningless statement.
You could easily say this for sleep clause,ohko moves and every ban that has been made...
So why didn't we deal with all these things???
'Cause we make the game!If sr was found to be broken you wouldn't say it is fine so deal with it...Just because now sr doesn't have any chance of being banned doesn't give you the right to act so arrogant and say shitty arguments like the one above...
It would be much better if you just tried to understand the points that some people here are making and discuss them instead of acting like the i-know-everyhting-guy telling bs like it is part of the game so deal with it....

And finally your rock weak team example is a huge failure!I could easily have a team with two 4x weak pokes to rock or three 2x weak pokes to rock and still do pretty well 'cause i cover the weaknesses with the rest of my team if it wasn't for sr.But with sr those kind of teams are imidiately a no no...
Tch. what. I said GAPING ROCK WEAKNESS. ._. You could say the exact same for Excadrill, et al. everyone is whining about Excadrill, but the fact is that it passed 4(5? idk) suspect tests and is still running about in OU. pft. If your team is owned by SR, that is the result of your terrible teambuilding skills, etc. >.<
why doesn't anybody read that part it's annoying >_>

Point is, if you want to use Charizard or Moltres in OU, you need to have appropriate support for them.
 
Volcarona takes 50% from Stealth Rock. Volcarona is top 20. SR does not make Pokémon unusable.
It's already been mentioned earlier in this thread why that logic is frankly bs. Volcarona is a very powerful sweeper, has quiver dance and the stats to back it up unlike venomoth, etc in OU, and a suprisingly good offensive typing with just enough in it's moveset that were it not for stealh rock it might be uber. Volcarona doesn't prove SR isn't broken, it proves that Volcarona is still a viable option at half health.

SR does make some pokemon unusable, like Articuno and Moltres, because certain pokemon are useless when they can't switch in more than twice (Moltres/Charizard).
 
Moltres is not unusable. It was solid UU last generation despite the SR weakness, and it was even almost banned a couple of times. Just because something is not equally as viable as something else in OU does not mean that they isn't usable there or in the lower tiers.
 
If there was a stealth fire instead scizor would be viable in UU

but that is still limiting options on the metagame we're looking at OU: that "stealth fire" would be limiting the variety in the metagame.

I just had my blood taken so I'm too tired to go deeper in the analysis

please stop hiding in the little hole of sr isn't broken and at least think about it fairly.

(if i were to vote on a suspect test on it, I would vote to not ban it, but still, it creates crazy restrictions on the metagame and severely overcentralizes it)

and please don't say overcentralize isn't a legitimate argument. A metagame of ~10 types of Arceus, to you, is broken, but a metagame of 50 "viable" pokemon in OU with 10-15 more unviable because of SR but possibly based on stats/movesets isn't?
 
Everyone use SR.. now you won't be the only one taking damage every single time a Pokemon comes into battle no matter what. [x Magic Guard.etc].

I think Game Freak took it off of the Gen V TM list for a reason.
 
please stop hiding in the little hole of sr isn't broken and at least think about it fairly.

(if i were to vote on a suspect test on it, I would vote to not ban it, but still, it creates crazy restrictions on the metagame and severely overcentralizes it)
and please don't say overcentralize isn't a legitimate argument. A metagame of ~10 types of Arceus, to you, is broken, but a metagame of 50 "viable" pokemon in OU with 10-15 more unviable because of SR but possibly based on stats/movesets isn't?
So if you think it's broken, why don't you want to ban it? That doesn't make sense. If something is broken, it should be banned. Also, SR does not severely overcentralize the metagame, and here's why. It seems to me that your definition of overcentrilization is, "making certain Pokemon unviable." That's not what it means at all. In my eyes here is what it means.
Overcentralization: Are you using ______? Do you have something to deal with ______? If the answer to one or both of these is no, can you still win reliably, all else being equal? If you have to use something and/or its counters to win, there is overcentralization. Merely being popular, or even powerful is not overcentralization. Even being common is not overcentralization, as long as it can still be beaten without specific counters.
Does Stealth Rock require you to use it counters to win? No. Can you still win reliably with Stealth Rock on the field? Yes. The reason 10 Arceus overcentralize is because you can't win without using them/their counters. Overcentrilization has nothing to do with making certain Pokemon unviable. That being said, do I think Stealth Rock is broken? Certainly not 5th gen as there are way more counters to it then there were before.
 
Moltres is not unusable. It was solid UU last generation despite the SR weakness, and it was even almost banned a couple of times. Just because something is not equally as viable as something else in OU does not mean that they isn't usable there or in the lower tiers.
While Moltres has the ability to recuperate from stealth rock, but many other pokemon have dropped much farther. Charizard and Articune were BL from gen1 to gen 3, but in gen 4 the both dropped to the very bottom, NU. Was that entirely because of stealth rock, maybe not, but you can be very sure it was a strong factor in it.

And in the case of what PI-Dimension said earlier,While one move prevents several pokemon from being in OU, when there is a very good chance they would, that makes a move pretty broken, especially in terms of Charizard and Articuno can move a pokemon on the edges of OU, being sent down to the bottom of NU, that makes a move pretty broken.
 
As was already stated, being weak to any powerful, commonly used move isn't a good thing, but we don't ban those moves just to make certain Pokemon more viable. If the Pokemon is good enough, however, it is worth it to work around their weaknesses. Heatran is a good example of this with his glaring weakness to Earthquake as well as Close Combat and Surf. Charizard and Articuno obviously aren't worth the effort. If they were, we wouldn't have people sitting here complaining that they're NU. With the right support, Charizard can still cause some serious damage on a Sun team thanks to the addition of Solar Power. Articuno...was never great to begin with. Even if we were to ignore Stealth Rock, it's still a defensive Pokemon with a generally poor defensive typing and a sad movepool.
 
As was already stated, being weak to any powerful, commonly used move isn't a good thing, but we don't ban those moves just to make certain Pokemon more viable. If the Pokemon is good enough, however, it is worth it to work around their weaknesses. Heatran is a good example of this with his glaring weakness to Earthquake as well as Close Combat and Surf. Charizard and Articuno obviously aren't worth the effort. If they were, we wouldn't have people sitting here complaining that they're NU. With the right support, Charizard can still cause some serious damage on a Sun team thanks to the addition of Solar Power. Articuno...was never great to begin with. Even if we were to ignore Stealth Rock, it's still a defensive Pokemon with a generally poor defensive typing and a sad movepool.
I agree with not banning SR since it's a strategy with viable checks and counters that only seriously hurts Sun teams and lol Articuno. But I have a few things to clear up. first of all, Moltres sucks in OU and no items give SR resistance (Heatran and Earthquake doesn't apply since most Tran run Balloon) and Charizard slowly kills itself with Solar Power, j/s. And to Articuno, there's no point in a defensive pokemon with half health and bad defensive typing, see DW Darmanitan
 
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