Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

[tehy]

I don't think that this is sufficient to justify that Hippowdon should always be used over Tyranitar. First, because "if you can be trapped and pwnd, then you can't fulfill your primary purpose" also apply to Heatran. Still, people use it because it is almost the only counter for Genesect, and to solve this problem, people use Shed Shell on Heatran. Why they don't do the same with Tyranitar? Because Leftovers would be missed? People used Chople Berry and don't seemed to miss Leftovers recovery many times, but the benefit of being capable to take one Fighting-type attack was a big deal. They could do the same with Shed Shell.

There is also another point. If were for this argument, then people should use other physical walls like Slowbro and Tangrowth instead of Skarmory, as the latter can be trapped by Magnezone. Before you say that Magnezone is a shitty pokémon or that it is not a big deal nowadays and that Dugtrio is extremely popular, lets say to you something: Dugtrio by itself is a massive problem for Tyranitar, but even in BW1, and start of BW2, people still used Tyranitar over Hippowdon on most occasions even considering the existence of Dugtrio. The guilty for Dugtrio's popularity now is Genesect, wich also happens to handle Tyranitar easily. As Dugtrio can handle most of Genesect's counters, and the latter is extremely popular, almost a staple on OU teams, Dugtrio by itself also becomes popular, and Tyranitar is indirectly hampered by Genesect because of this.

So Genesect is the reason, althoug is an indirect one, to why Tyranitar is receiving few credit here. Unlike some people in favor of Tyranitar being A, I am not saying that Hippowdon is effective. In fact, it is very effective for handling Dugtrio and sun teams easily. But Tyranitar is just as effective.



Although Mew can do anything, this doesn't mean that it can do anything better than everything. Even the set cited above by Tabuu, Nasty Plot, I can see as having some sort of competition from Celebi, wich boasts a better tipying and has a secondary STAB that is great and in fact, makes you not worry about having to use a Psychic-type STAB in favor of a option with better coverage (but using Psychic-type STAB is still a great choice). Although Mew is not outclassed.

Mew, on my opinion, is B-Tier. It is actually amazing. Can stallbreak, can Nasty Plot, can Baton Pass... Its uses don't even end here! I've used it on my team, that had problems with SR setters and stall teams. Done; I never had problem with them again.

Let's see:
Firstly, no one else does either. Or said so. It's a contributing factor, not the only factor. And that DOES apply to heatran...
Tyranitar isn't the only counter to certain things, it's the only pursuiter and check for many things.

Oh yeah, if that were true, people who didn't use shed shell skarm would be dumb, but they do, so it's cool. Tyranitar is not even close to as effective as spdef hippow, okay? He can be wow'd, then worn the hell down. Or just, you know, trapped by duggy boy.

Np has competition, but it lacks a quadweakness to bug, and can pack both aura sphere and flamethrower, or just bust a shadow ball. It's also got psyshock, which is nice. Essentially, mew has a lot of advantages over other sets, especially because of unpredictability, but the best IMO is the stallbreaker set, which is pretty great.


As to stone rg, it takes about half from LO tornadus-T, which is not great, but it can switch in on thundurus-T's electric attacks. E-belt GK may not outright KO ttar, but you must admit it does plenty in any case,and focus blast wrecks. You can always run away after the switch, so all you can really say is "predict the switch", at which point either can be thoroughly wrecked. And hippow wins 1v1 vs tentacruel without any scald burns, even if you switch in on scald. So it's not that bad, although i only switch in if i'm confident it's spinning (I just demolished a high-ranked player with a rainstall team using this strategy.)

Edit: Alk;he's not. Spdef hippowdon is far and away better than t-tar at beating sun teams-who needs pursuit when you have slack off? And who needs stone edge when he has EQ? Tyranitar is better for his other qualities, but not for beating sun.

 

[zerohero]

I think that the cons are enough to not make him a B tier, especially as rain nerfs him. Lati@s wall him hard and it has a hard time trying to come in on battle due to its frailty. Unlike Breloom, Infernape doesn't have the tipying and moves to compensate this.

usually you should be able to u turn on latias but you are right. f rain nerfs him he can still handle some of the rain mons even without his fire moves. stone edge for the genies close combat for steel types, the odd thunder punch. not to mention he has access to nasty plot and sword dance, granted he would have to do this on a switch.
not saying he can do everything on his on but if it just changing the weather then i dont think it would be that hard.

example: if rain is up venusaur almost become useless and becomes fodder unless sun gets back up.

 

[alkinesthetase]

But Tyranitar is just as effective.

good then we agree, tyranitar to A and leave hippowdon in A as well



as for mew, i feel it's kinda strapped for a niche... i am reminded of when someone asked about CM mew in OU. it's got neither the speed and stab of latias, or reuniclus's magic guard, or jirachi's bulk, etc. really a lot can be said about most of mew's other boosting sets... it's not that they're bad, it's just that they're kinda awkwardly placed in between other boosters.

the best sets mew has to itself are the bulky stallbreaker (taunt+willowisp is a powerful combination, and mew is one of its few users - this already gives it a niche, and being a psychic with wow is honestly godly in and of itself), a full-on baton passer (for full BP teams), and the occasional HO antilead mew with taunt/SR and normal gem explosion (whose niche is having more bulk than azelf so it can run gem>sash).

in other words, i don't think any of mew's sets are bad, but each of them has a lot of competition, and that leaves it in the middle of a lot of other things. mew is probably approx b tier

 

[alexwolf]

Are you seriously saying hippo wins more weather wars than tar does? Well, first of all, EVERY single rain abuser shits on hippo with little help, torn t does a fuck load with hurricane, thundy demolishes it with grass knot (a move that i personally always carry on thund t), tenta (actually wins in the stall war just by hitting him with toxic on the switch or if a scald burn then u got 2 layers of TSpikes up and a spin if necessary), keldeo (really need to explain?), ferro uses it as set up fodder, so no, it doesnt help against rain.

Sun is something a lot of people is using to justify using hippo over tar, just because of dugtrio, now no person that knows what the hell hes doing is sending in ttar on xatu's u-turn. Second, most important sand threats destroy tales, namely terrakion and lando, whos LO set shits on entire sun teams. And finally, with some prior damage, ttar wins easily against tales with a combination of crunch/stone edge + pursuit (only the first move needed if using CB).

I don't see where you are getting at really. Even if Hippo is destroyed by all the rain threats you mentioned, which he isn't btw as he can check Thund-T and set up sandstorm at will against Tenta, how Ttar fares? Torn-T OHKOes, Thund-T OHKOes, Tenta burns, Keldeo OHKOes, and you only beat Ferro if you have Fire Blast. Lol you are right Ttar is so useful against rain teams.

I am not even going to touch what you said about Ttar and Hippo against Sun, because every at least decent player, knows that a Sand team with Hippo fares way better against Sun, than a Sand team with Ttar (assuming they are not used together).

Anyway there is no point in this discussion anymore. Everyone has made his points clear by now, and everything that needs to be said, has been said already.

 

[Undead Red]

Hippowdon may take flat hits better overall, but I'd much rather have T-tar coming in to set up a double switch for me against rain(if say, I know HP Ice is coming, or Hurricane is on the way and none of my steels resist Flying).

 

[Lavos]

Supporting alkinesthetase, Tyranitar and Hippowdon ought to both be A Tier as they do completely different things but do those things well. Tyranitar is excellent at getting up rocks, Pursuit trapping, and working as a utility slot for a team that lacks certain aspects which Tyranitar is good at filling. Hippowdon, on the other hand, only really works as a wall, but a damn good one at that - it also excels at getting rocks up and phazing. They function differently, but they're both excellent Pokemon for what they do. Keep them A Tier, this shouldn't be a tough decision.

 

[Mailman]

I don't see Victini anywhere, but I think it fits in C rank pretty well.
What are everyone's thoughts?

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

I don't see Victini anywhere, but I think it fits in C rank pretty well.
What are everyone's thoughts?

I wouldn't disagree if Victini was also proposed to B. Choice Band sun-boosted STAB V-Create is one of the scariest things to switch into. Resisting this move is not enough; you must also have amazing defenses. Even Kingdra, wich 4x resists Fire, is 2HKOed in the sun, to show how poweful Victini is. V-Create is so powerful that Victini doesn't need to bother using its Psychic-type STAB, as V-Create already maims all Fighting and Poison-types. It is so powerful that it has almost the same power as a super-effective Fusion Bolt. I made calculations some time ago and I saw that even Slowbro, with Sun and Stealth Rock, is 2HKOed by V-Create! Any Pokémon capable of doing these things deserves my sincere respect.

In fact, one of the only ways to stop Victini is if you have your own weather, and that weather isn't Sun. That doesn't stop you from doing massive damage to your weather starter, unless that starter is Politoed, but Politoed should be wary of Fusion Bolt, so not even him is safe.

The only problem is that nasty side effect. Lowering defenses and speed forces Victini to hit-and-run, and it can't even sweep late-game, unless you use another Fire-type move. To do this, you are forced to forfeit a coverage move or U-Turn, and for Victini, this is a big, big shame, because sweeping late-game with CB V-Create would turn him on one of the biggest OU threats. You can actually do this with Trick Room, but Trick Room is not the best strategy on OU.

Also, Victini is extremely vulnerable to Pursuit because of this fact. Be extremely cautious of using V-Create when your opponent has Tyranitar, because you can lose your Victini on the start of match. Thankfully, Dugtrio scares Tyranitar away, so it may not be so much of a issue, as the only other notable Pursuit user, Scizor, can't even think of trying to defeat Victini.

That said, Victini is solid C-Tier, but I also agree if it is nominated to B-Tier.

 

[alexwolf]

Don't have time to explain, will do later, but Victini is B rank material imo. Band, Scarf and TR are all excellent in sun, but need a lot of support.

 

[Mailman]

Don't have time to explain, will do later, but Victini is B rank material imo. Band, Scarf and TR are all excellent in sun, but need a lot of support.

That's the thing, the support it requires makes it C rank in my opinion. It needs sun up to function at its full potential and it's weak to Stealth Rock. I'm not saying it's bad by any means, but its certainly not something that you can easily add to any team. Especially with the amount of Pokemon with over 100 base speed running everywhere.

 

[Reymedy]

"Celebi can only HP Fire, Psychic, and Giga Drain, leaving it walled to Heatran"

Ahm, well noone reacts? or maybe noone did read x)
So I do : Objection => Earthpower !

 

[tehy]

Perfect coverage? Lati@s and starmie say hello and good night.

Still a nice set, though.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

I am sorry but there is no way in hell Celebi is sweeping through dragons and Tornadus. Earth power is the best option to deal with pokemon found on a majority of teams with would otherwise wall you: Heatran. You can theory mon this all you want, but unless you have a dugtrio to dispose of Heatran, you better have earth power. The only benefit I can see of psychic is to act as a better Breloom check, that is about it.

 

[Dewitt501]

Volcarona is instantly revenge'd by Terrakion, as well as by both forms of Tornadus under the rain.

 

[sora13]

Volcarona is instantly revenge'd by Terrakion, as well as by both forms of Tornadus under the rain.

While Tornadus may be able to check Volcarona under the rain, it still loses over 60% to a +1 Volcarona, and unless terrakion has a choice scarf or is under sand storm, then Volcarona can easily KO it with a +1 giga drain after sr.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

I am sorry but there is no way in hell Celebi is sweeping through dragons and Tornadus. Earth power is the best option to deal with pokemon found on a majority of teams with would otherwise wall you: Heatran. You can theory mon this all you want, but unless you have a dugtrio to dispose of Heatran, you better have earth power. The only benefit I can see of psychic is to act as a better Breloom check, that is about it.

Actually Psychic has several benefits. First, it is a good STAB move to hit things that resist Giga Drain and aren't weak to Hidden Power Fire; you don't want to be forced to use a un-STABed move to get past some threat that resist Grass. Also, unless that Fighting-type is named Lucario, Cobalion or Scrafty, Psychic hits it for more damage than any other move that Celebi may carry. If your team cannot handle Fighting-types well, Psychic is definitively recommended. Also, Psychic is good to, after a NP boost, OHKO Dragonite after its Multiscale has been broken; with Earth Power, Celebi would be completely walled by it. Also, after a NP Boost, Hidden Power Fire is already going to dispose of all Steel-types of OU, except Heatran of course, wich is the only real reason to run Earth Power.

Also, of course Celebi will not be sweeping through Tornadus. However, apart from Garchomp and Lati@s, no Dragon on OU outspeeds Celebi (Salamence speed-ties with him) assuming that they don't use Choice Scarf, and Celebi can dispose of all them with Psychic or HP Ice if boosted.

So, unless your team has a severe weakness to Heatran, there is actually no reason to use Earth Power over Psychic!

Or you can run Earth Power with Hidden Power Ice. Because at least you aren't walled by even more things that you would by using Earth Power and HP Fire on the same set.

Perfect coverage? Lati@s and starmie say hello and good night.

Still a nice set, though.

Mew can dispose of these things with Shadow Ball. However, as it cannot have 5 moves at same time, it is forced to forgo Fire Blast. So, Mew will never actually have the perfect coverage no matter what it does. Fighting/Ghost actually have perfect coverage thogeter but perfect neutral coverage doesn't mean that you are going to get past any threat easily with a neutral hit; most Steel-types not weak to Fighting will be able to handle the combination of Psyshock/Aura Sphere/Shadow Ball well.

 

[FaceFaceFace]

Rotom-W is in fact, really really good. His assitance in being...whatever he wants to be, makes him so great. However reaching S-Tier takes a lot. He can't sweep as he acts as a pivot. He struggles to wall a majority of the tier, despite his bulk. (Remember he also has no reliable recovery outside of Pain Split). Rotom-W is solid top tier A-Tier, imo. That's where he really shines, as being pushed to S-Tier....mmm i dont think so

Rotom-W is such a bad boy. You're right, he can't sweep entire teams, but he's a really, really, really good pivot. Like really really.

Looking at S-Tier, Deoxys-D/Politoed can't sweep or wall majority of the tier either- heck Terrakion needs appropriate team support too (Genesect can rot in hell).

My point is that each S-Tier Pokemon brings a specific niche to the table better than any other Pokemon can. Rotom-W does exactly that, not to mention having to guess between scarf or utility alone is enough to give someone a headache. And then you have to guess if it's going to Volt-Turn or do ugly things to you. So in that sense, you can't really 'beat' Rotom-W, you simply manage it.

Of course, it is no Genesect. But that thing can just piss straight off to ubers. But is Rotom-W on par with Deoxys, Politoed, and Terrakion? I definitely think so.

 

[evillocke]

Rotom-W is such a bad boy. You're right, he can't sweep entire teams, but he's a really, really, really good pivot. Like really really.

Looking at S-Tier, Deoxys-D/Politoed can't sweep or wall majority of the tier either- heck Terrakion needs appropriate team support too (Genesect can rot in hell).

My point is that each S-Tier Pokemon brings a specific niche to the table better than any other Pokemon can. Rotom-W does exactly that, not to mention having to guess between scarf or utility alone is enough to give someone a headache. And then you have to guess if it's going to Volt-Turn or do ugly things to you. So in that sense, you can't really 'beat' Rotom-W, you simply manage it.

Of course, it is no Genesect. But that thing can just piss straight off to ubers. But is Rotom-W on par with Deoxys, Politoed, and Terrakion? I definitely think so.

Yeah, rotom-W is one of the best pokemon in the tier. Solid A for sure.

 

[evillocke]

Yea I forgot about them lol. But in reality, the set sucks balls, as I just tried it out on Pokemon Showdown.


TBH, I don't see how Politoed+Deoxys-D are S-Tier. Someone explain that to me lol.

But anyways, S-Tier are Pokemon that can sweep or wall a majority of the tier. Along with that, they carry the element of surprise, as they are very versatile, so their exact set is never known. Terrakion, I will understand. It has brute strength to just f*ckin muscle through the entire OU Tier.

Genesect is S-Tier in performance, but not by definition. It isn't all too versatile as it really can only run Choice Scarf or an offensive pivot set with EB/LO. However, it shines in terms of coverage and usage (although it isn't a sweeper, so it can't really sweep/wall a majority of the OU Tier....). TBH, Choice Scarf is Genesect's only friend and it's the onyl friend it'll need for a lonnnnnggg time

I feel some Pokemon that could've been S-Tier are Pokemon like Dragonite. It's so versatile and you never really know what its packing. (Although 50% its probably DD). The only reason it isn't S-Tier is the fact that it can't sweep a majority of the tier.
Now I'm probably gonna get quite the scolding for saying this but here goes:
Let's Nominate the Chomp for S-Tier :D
Hear me out:
~It's pretty versatile. It can either be Banded, Scarfed, SD Sweeper, SR Bulky Pivot just like Terrakion can do most of these things.
~It has power. POWER. THE POWER. My burned Garchomp at like +4 LO did work. And my non-burned +2 CHomp always does a BUTT LOAD of damage. I'm not even exaggerating. Unless it's a 10 ten year old child, who has just entered the Competitive World and thinks that using Registeel is cheap because it's legendary, is playing with Chomp, Garchomp will always manage to drag down at least 2 pokemon with him.
~It can sweep a nice chunk of the OU Tier. Nothing can stand up to Chomp except Skarmory and Bronzong. But even then, a Sun-Boosted +2, LO Fire Fang should ruin their day :)
~It has sick sprite....I mean comeee onnn just look at it

Yeah, the problem is his moveset. He has SD, EQ, Stone edge/fire fang, and outrage. This leaves him strapped. He can run fire fang or stone edge, without either he is walled by ferro/forry, or skarm.

 

[tehy]

Stone edge does less to skarmory. With lower accuracy. And PP. And while stone edge has a higher crit ratio, fire fang flinches about as often, more if you count accuracy.

The real problem is that it can't boost its speed without subsalac, which leaves him without a moveslot.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Genesect is S-Tier in performance, but not by definition. It isn't all too versatile as it really can only run Choice Scarf or an offensive pivot set with EB/LO. However, it shines in terms of coverage and usage (although it isn't a sweeper, so it can't really sweep/wall a majority of the OU Tier....). TBH, Choice Scarf is Genesect's only friend and it's the onyl friend it'll need for a lonnnnnggg time

Genesect can run a Rock Polish set to sweep late-game; even without any STAB move it has excellent coverage and once it nabs an SpA boost and your team is weakened, is GG. So, in fact, it can be a sweeper.

Genesect can run a Choice Band set for the surprise factor, and also because a CB-boosted, +1 Atk U-Turn is nothing to laugh at. With many things being EVed/IVed to give an attack boost to Genesect, this set can be viable, unexpected and powerful.

Also, Choice Scarf Genesect is pretty overrated. It has difficulty revenge killing some things without an attack boost, and there are things that it can't revenge kill, for example, Volcarona, +1 Salamence (unless it is locked in a Dragon-type attack and don't have too many boosts), Terrakion (especially on sand) and any Fire-type not named Charizard. Nonetheless it is an effective revenge killer that can still take care of most things. But unless there are no other Pokémon on your team that can function as effective revenge killers, such as Landorus on a sand team, there is probably another set that you should be running. The aforementioned are examples. The Expert Belt gets a surprise kill most of time, and there is also the Choice Specs set, wich is pure, brute force.

So Genesect is perfectly versatile, it is extremely flexible (so that that it can even go without a STAB!). S-tier by both performance and definition.

 

[VaporeonIce]

The current definition for S Tier is:

Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns").

Deoxys-D and Politoed fall into the last category; it's very, very easy for Deoxys-D to get a layer of hazards up or Politoed to get the rain up without dying, meaning. Politoed can also punch holes with Choices Specs or be a surprisingly good physical wall. Deoxys-D can use Taunt to stop the opponent from setting up hazards, and can run offensive moves to catch dangerous opponents off-guard and get a surprise KO. So they're generally S-tier for their support characteristics, but Politoed and Deoxys-D are also fairly versatile and can be modified to suit the team's needs.

 

[Schpoonman]

I'd categorize Politoed in S purely because he summons rain. I remember people talking about how Magikarp would be OU if he had Drizzle, because it's that powerful (this was a long time ago, don't ask me when/who). If more powerful Pokémon summoned rain and sun (Politoed and Ninetales were both NU last gen/think if the Legendary Birds received their respective weather: Zapdos-Drizzle, Moltres-Drought, really) we'd see Drizzle and Drought banned outright.

It's like that Abilities Ranking thread a while back: Shit like Prankster and Magic Bounce were single-handedly capable of bringing completely worthless Pokémon such as Xatu and Sableye to prominence. Drizzle is absolutely an Ability that makes a Pokemon S-tier.

 

[Lavos]

Not keeping Politoed in S Tier would be a vile injustice. Sure, it's a pretty bad Pokemon by itself, but all the absurdly broken support it gives to its omnipresent team members by summoning permanent Rain makes it not only one of the most useful Pokemon to ever grace OU, but also the consistent #1 in usage for several months in a row. Politoed provides four things for a team:

1. Increased strength of Water-type moves, powering up sweepers such as Keldeo.
2. Increased accuracy for moves such as Hurricane and Thunder, making things such as rain abuse Tornadus-T, Thundurus-T, and SubCM Jirachi viable.
3. Cutting the strength of Fire-type moves, allowing Pokemon with debilitating weaknesses such as Ferrothorn and Scizor to function extremely well.
4. Allowing for Pokemon such as Tentacruel to receive 1/16th extra HP recovery every turn due to Rain Dish.

All these effects can and have been extremely game changing factors in many matches. With Politoed doing all that by itself, there is absolutely no reason it should not be S Tier.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Yes, but outside Drizzle Politoed is actually a decent Pokémon, it is just outclassed by many Bulky Water-types. Ninetales is A instead of S because even with Drought it is a mediocre Pokémon and is only there to support the team with eternal sun. <--- this was a response to Lord of Bays

Not keeping Politoed in S Tier would be a vile injustice. Sure, it's a pretty bad Pokemon by itself, but all the absurdly broken support it gives to its omnipresent team members by summoning permanent Rain makes it not only one of the most useful Pokemon to ever grace OU, but also the consistent #1 in usage for several months in a row. Politoed provides four things for a team:

1. Increased strength of Water-type moves, powering up sweepers such as Keldeo.
2. Increased accuracy for moves such as Hurricane and Thunder, making things such as rain abuse Tornadus-T, Thundurus-T, and SubCM Jirachi viable.
3. Cutting the strength of Fire-type moves, allowing Pokemon with debilitating weaknesses such as Ferrothorn and Scizor to function extremely well.
4. Allowing for Pokemon such as Tentacruel to receive 1/16th extra HP recovery every turn due to Rain Dish.

All these effects can and have been extremely game changing factors in many matches. With Politoed doing all that by itself, there is absolutely no reason it should not be S Tier.

SubCM Jirachi is perfectly viable outside rain o.o I've used one a few time ago. You cannot use Water Pulse and/or Thunder of course. I've been using Psyshock and Thunderbolt.