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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

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  1. Lady Alex

    Lady Alex I asked Mawile to not hurt me. I was betrayed.
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    Hippowdon in A while ttar is in B makes little sense imo. Hippowdon is great on defensive teams, but defensive teams are really struggling right now, and Hippowdon can do very little to stop a lot of the current threats in the metagame. There's no denying that it's a good physical wall who works as an alternative to Tyranitar, but it's in no way superior to it.
  2. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Guys you don't get it. The fact that weather wars are more heated than ever makes Ttar a B tier poke. Because Hippowdon is better at winning the weather war, you can't argue this, especially with Dugtrio being everywhere.

    Nobody is saying that Hippo is a better standalone poke than Ttar, just that the first is better at winning weather wars, which means a lot.
  3. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    But the question is: Can this, alone, make Hippowdon more worthy of A tier than Tyranitar? I think that if is to Tyranitar be B tier, then Hippowdon should also be B, because of the problems cited above.
  4. jrrrrrrr

    jrrrrrrr wubwubwub
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    Except Hippowdon is not better at winning weather wars because it can't switch into or hurt the other weather starters. Tyranitar can switch into Ninetales directly and counter it, it can switch into most Abomasnow directly and counter it, and if Politoed is choice locked on Ice Beam (common), it can also counter it. Even if Tyranitar DIDNT have Sandstream, it would still be an A-Tier pokemon.

    Tyranitar also counters many common pokemon on weather teams, like Heatran, Tornadus-T, it can destroy Ferrothorn, doesn't care about Surf Latios, etc etc. Hippowdon can do what exactly to these pokemon? NOTHING? Yeah thats helping me win weather wars alright!

    Hippowdon switches in after something is dead, and has to switch back out again to make your teammates take an attack. Big help, Hippowdon!

    Oh, and about Dugtrio...I guess we better take Ninetales off of that A Tier as well, right?
  5. Lady Alex

    Lady Alex I asked Mawile to not hurt me. I was betrayed.
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    lol are you serious? Hippowdon doesn't win weathers wars any more easily than tyranitar does. Hippowdon is deathly afraid to switch in on most rain threats and doesn't do nearly as well against sun or hail as tyranitar does. The existence of dugtrio doesn't make Tyranitar B-Tier worthy. Saying that it's an inarguable fact that Hippowdon is better at winning the weather war is arrogant and narrow-minded.
  6. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    I'm backing Jrrrr. Seriously, TTar is A material, and usually when I face Hippo, my opponent wishes they brought TTar instead, since usually I can DMeteor it or simply Hydro Pump with Rotom-W. Pursuit trapping is very amazing this metagame and people really underestimate TTars ability in OU. Just because more (newer) players are spamming rain doesn't mean that rain is the best weather this metagame. Seriously, I usually on see rain stall / balanced rain on the higher ladder (PO speaking) than I do HO Rain. I also see much more HO Sand than HO Rain too, and usually the best candidate is TTar for this. there are just so many things TTar does better than HIppo. Hippo can wall things, but stall is slowly dying this meta so I don't know why ppl ranked it over TTar.
  7. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Yes it does. Tyranitar is deathly afraid of switching into rain threats too, as every single one of them murders him (Keldeo, Thundurus-T, Tornadus-T, Dugtrio, Genesect, take your pick). But Hippo has reliable recovery so he can at least combat defensive Politoed, defensive Celebi and Tentacruel.

    Against Sun teams, Hippo is hands up better, as 80% of them carry Dugtrio, and you can't deny that, while Hippo gets a free switch in against Ninetales. Ttar can't even switch into Ninetales so easy because of WoW, which makes him useless, unlike Hippo which can still function because of Slack Off. Even if Tales burns Hippo it doesn't care, as all it needs is to survive long enough to win the weather war.

    Finally against Hail teams i am not sure, as i don't have a lot of experience with or agains them, but they are very rare anyway...

    And jrrrr cut the bs. Tyranitar can switch freely into Ninetales and Aboma? What happened to WoW and Wood Hammer?

    Finally to clarify. I don't care if Ttar stays in A or B tier, but i believe that Hippo is better in this meta. Ttars niche right now is either on double Sand teams, where he can use the CB set and not give a fuck if Dugtrio traps and kills him after it kills something, and that he is the best Keldeo partner ever.
  8. jrrrrrrr

    jrrrrrrr wubwubwub
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    Let's make this clear: Hippowdon can never, ever, ever combat Politoed, Celebi, Tornadus, or any of the other pokemon you mentioned in this post other than Dugtrio. Tyranitar can. Hippowdon can't stay alive against any of these pokemon because its OHKOd by all of them! What good is your recovery if you can't use it?

    Tyranitar is still a 100% counter to Ninetales even if it is burned. And most Abomasnow do not have Wood Hammer, and they are slower than TTar anyways. What is Hippowdon going to do to either of these pokemon?
  9. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    Tyranitar can actually switch on Ninetales more easily than Hippowdon. The fact that it risks being catched by Dugtrio is unfortunately a shame, but Hippowdon that doesn't invest enough in Special Defense is going to take a lot from Fire Blast, even without sun. Also, Hippowdon is stil crippled by burn as not only its Leftovers recovery is negated, but its Earthquakes become much weaker. But even burned, Tyranitar can pose a threat to Ninetales, and a Choice Band Tyranitar can still OHKO 136 HP/0 Def versions of Ninetales with Stone Edge even when burned.

    Also, I can't even see how can Hippowdon defeat defensive Politoed and Celebi. Tentacruel I can understand why, because of its weakness to Earthquake, but Tentacruel can still burn Hippowdon with Scald, and alias, Hippowdon is weak to Scald.
  10. Tobes

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    Venusaur should definitely be A-tier. It is an incredibly brutal powerhouse, and while it needs Sun support and (usually, unless you give up sweeping potential for Earthquake) a teammate to get rid of Heatran (guess which Pokemon that job usually falls on), Venusaur is an absolute wrecking ball once it gets off a Growth. It has superb offensive power, excellent coverage, is insanely fast (Base 108 Scarfers lose to Timid Venusaur, which seems to be becoming increasingly popular) and to top it off its primary STAB heals it. It can also mix up its role with Sunny Day or Sleep Powder. Furthermore, it threatens every opposing weather inducer with just its STAB moves, and beats most blobs one-on-one. It's easily Sun's top threat.
  11. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    Agree. Venusaur itself can get past Heatran if it runs Earthquake. With Dugtrio being on most sun teams, Heatran must think twice before coming in to wall Venusaur unless it has Choice Scarf or Shed Shell. Basically when Venusaur gets a Growth boost, one of the few ways to stop it is to bring your own different weather, then switch to something that can defeat Venusaur while it is slower, as long as that switch-in can take one of its attacks. Also, thanks to its great defensive tipying, it isn't actually hard for Venusaur to get a boost. As not even the pink blobs can defeat him, I see no reason why Venusaur is not A-tier.
  12. tehy

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    Yeah, but it takes 12% from sr, then 6% from burn. Hippow switches in and spams slack off. To be fair, it's not better against rain or hail;just sun. Still, its main advantage over tar is that you cannot wear it down, except possibly by double-switching, and even then, it takes 6% from SR.

    And hippowdon is NOT crippled by burn. It's annoyed.
  13. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    I should note that Blissey with around 30ish special attack evs + flamethrower or fire blast and only 4 HP evs can take on Venusaur one on one in the sun, it is left terribly weakened after that though. If you really need something for Vensaur and you already have Blissey on your team, its worth considering.

    Anyway yeah, Venusaur is a solid A tier pokemon no doubt.

    As for the Hippowdon vs Tyranitar issue, generally Tyranitar is a better fit for teams, it it does help vs Latios a ton, I think its A tier, probably low A tier though. I am split on Hippowdon though, its good, but is it A tier good?
  14. DarkBlazeR

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    Going to give my support for Venusaur > A Rank too. Whilst it does require support unlike most of the other A Rank candidates, the fact that it can easily 6-0 almost any weatherless team lacking Heatran should be enough evidence to show that it does have a massive impact on the metagame (in fact I believe Venusaur is the biggest reason why many people run Shed Shell Heatran...).

    I'm also going to support Tyranitar > A Rank. The CB set is such a wonderful thing right now, and what's also nice is that Tyranitar can be paired with Hippowdon to practically guarantee that sand will be the dominant weather (though admittedly having two Water/Grass weaknesses is annoying, and needs addressing if you're going to run them both on the same team).
  15. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
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    Well, throwing my support again for Venusaur in A rank as I did a couple of pages ago, since it seems I'm not the only one that appreciate the sweeping prowess of our favourite Clorophyll abuser.
  16. alexwolf

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    SpD Hippo can easily switch into defensive Politoed and Celebi, which is all it needs to do, as without rain, Keldeo, Torn-T and Thund-T become much more manageable. And don't try to dispute this, as it is a fact, not an opinion. Scald deals ~35% to SpD Hippo, and Giga Drain 37.5%, meaning that can he change the weather at will whenever those two are in, which is all that Hippo needs to do against rain teams, as it cannot wall their offensive threats anyway. It doesn't matter if it gets burned or toxic'ed in the process, because his job is to keep sand up, and as long as he does that he is already more useful than Ttar. But where can Ttar come into? A burned Ttar is a useless Ttar, so could luck switching into Politoed. Obviously you aren't coming against their offensive pokes too, so your only chance is against Celebi or Tentacruel, and you are still in danger of getting burned or getting worn down from Celebi's Giga Drain/U-turn.

    I don't care if Tyranitar is a counter to Ninetales, as 50% of OU can counter Ninetales, as she is a support mon. What i do care about is that Ttar in no way counters sun, where Hippo definitely checks it better. Hippo is not afraid of Dugtrio, Genesect, and Ninetales as much as Tyranitar is. And yeah TtAr hates to get burned from WoW, as then it loses every hope of winning against the opposing sun team. You can't set up SR due to Xatu, you can't 2HKO Xatu burned, and you can't deal damage. So the only thing you do is switch the weather and lose 12% of your life every time you do so, while the opposing Sun team has their way with you. So yeah Hippo can switch into Tales much easier than Ttar, as he doesn't care about burn as much, due to Slack Off. Yes burn is a nuisance, but nothing more, as all that Hippo has to do is survive longer than Tales, which is not hard to do. Finally it seems that your knowledge is quite outdated. The most common variants of Abomasnow are the physical set with Leech Seed and Protect and the mixed with 4 attacks and Expert Belt. And both sets carry Wood Hammer, are faster than Ttar, and have enough power to OHKO Ttar with Wood Hammer.

    As i said again, Ttar's best use right now is to counter Lati@s, and trap problematic pokemon for Keldeo, so that he can sweep. These are reasons to add Ttar in your team, not to win weather wars. When you are thinking about winning weather wars with your sand team, Hippo is the first poke that comes to mind.

    Hippo still takes a pittance from Ninetales fire attacks and has reliable recovery so it actually fares better than Ttar. Ttar gets burned on the switch and does what? Hit Tales with Pursuit for meaningless damage (Tales won't stay in to get hit from Ttar's Stone Edge), or fails to set-up SR against Xatu, or finally get trapped by Dugtrio, all while getting slowly killed from burn? Here is how much Hippo takes from Flamethrower, which is Tales's most common STAB move: 18.09 - 21.66%. So yeah he is very scared.

    I never said that SpD Hippo beats defensive Politoed and Celebi. Don't put words in my mouth. I said that he can switch into them to change the weather without fear, unlike Ttar which gets fucked by a burn, or trapped by a U-turn from Celebi with Dugtrio.

    I also agree with Venusaur for A Rank!
  17. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    So let's get what you are saying; Hippowdon can survive better than Tyranitar? True. But Hippowdon is going to do what against the opposition? Tyranitar yes is not very useful when burned, but Hippowdon is not useful in this regard either when burned, either when not. It is useful when attempting to mantain sandstorm because it can attempt to stall the opponent, but this is almost all that it can do: It can't stop setup Pokémon unless it carry phazing, is completely Xatu and Taunt bait, and is very weak. It can only do this; stall out the opponent's weather starter to attempt to mantain the weather, and this isn't exactly the playstyle of most teams. Tyranitar gets the nod here because it can pose a threat with its attacks. Don't forget that some Tyranitar go mixed, and special attacks aren't affected by burn. Also, all you said above about Hippowdon is assuming that it is a specially defensive variant. As I said, don't forget that there are Hippowdon variants that are fully physically defensive.

    Also, don't forget that not all Politoed are defensive, and Choice Specs, in fact, a common set, can easily put Hippowdon on its place, even outside rain. Defensive variants can still Toxic stall Hippowdon if it wasn't burned by Scald, and Perish Song him to force a switch and take more entry hazard damage. I know this because I've did it so many times; Scald may do a pittance to SpD Hippowdon, but it cannot reliably win the weather war against Politoed either.

    You don't need to use Hippowdon to win weather wars against non-sand teams easily. Depending of your team, Tyranitar can just as easily win the weather war as Hippowdon can.
  18. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Hippo is not useless when burned, as it can still set-up sand with zero risk against defensive Politoed and Ninetales, as well as phaze. Ttar can do what while burned? Set up sand and slowly die? Or set-up SR that Tenta/Xatu will make useless anyway? Hippo doesn't want to immediately stall out a poke, it wants to stall out the opposing weather inducer in the long run. You say that special variants are not affected by the burn. So? What is Ttar going to do back against Politoed and Ninetales? Fire Blast them? Fact remains, after Ttar gets burned, his offensive presence, which is one if its advantages over Hippo, drops to zero. Finally why you brought up Physically Defensive Hippo? I was talking about SpD Hippo.

    Choice Specs Toed fucks up both Tyranitar and Hippo, so no difference here. Defensive variants of Toed won't stall out Hippo, because Hippo will only stay in one turn, to change the weather, and get the hell out. Why are you leaving him in anyway? To do what?

    I wholeheartedly disagree. Hippo is the poke more adept at winning weather wars for sand teams, not Ttar, and i have proven this with everything that i said 'till now. Ttar has roles that it does better than Hippo, but winning the weather wars isn't one of them.
  19. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    I want a thing that is not sitting duck against most opponents, Hippowdon may win weather wars more easily, despite the fact that I tried to use one and didn't win any weather war that I couldn't win with Tyranitar. Hippowdon actually can't do anything against many opponents apart from trying to stall out them. Someone said that Tyranitar loses to almost any A and S tier one or one, lets see:

    Hippowdon loses to Genesect, Politoed, Terrakion (against SD and CB variants if Hippowdon is specially defensive, as it is 2HKOed by Close Combat), Dragonite and Salamence (2HKOed by boosted Outrages if it is specially defensive), Lati@s, Starmie, Garchomp, Breloom, Rotom-W, Tornadus-T, Thundurus-T (if it carry Grass Knot) and is setup bait to Deoxys-D.

    Hippowdon also loses to most A and S-tier Pokémon 1 x 1 and is setup bait for a dangerous one. So I disagree with any one that says that Hippowdon is more effective than Tyranitar. Being able to win weather wars more easily by itself alone doesn't make Hippowdon better than Tyranitar.
  20. Doughboy

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    Alright I can not believe the stuff I am reading in this thread. Hippowdon is not inferior to Tyranitar. Hippowdon is setup bait, really? We have a Pokemon whose standard has Whirlwind vs the Poke that sends out Choice-locked Pursuits or uninvested Crunches/Pursuits/drop my attack and defense Superpower. Don't get me started on mix-tar.

    Why are taking into the worst circumstances/sets for Hippowdon vs a certain matchup? The more popular Physically Defensive set is one of, if not the best, Salamence switches in the tier considering most Steel's that can handle boosted Outrages/EQ's get wasted by Fire Blast (Dragonite is in a similar boat but Fire Punch is much easier to handle). Hippowdon actually comes out on top of SD variants, since no matter what Terrakion does, even SD'ing on the switch, it will never do enough with CC to get a OHKO even with Life Orb (you OHKO back of a CC defense drop). This isn't considering that Terrakion will be doing significant less without LO, both Rock Gem and Salac Berry variants are quite popular. Garchomp struggles against Hippowdon if it is partnered up with another Steel. Physically Defensive Hippowdon+Steel is too shutting down physical Dragons as Tyranitar+Steel is to stopping Special ones. Also Sp. Def performs quite nicely against Genesect.

    In the circumstance that Hippowdon can not counter Ninetales, you can't deny that it performs better against Sun teams. First and foremost, it isn't trapped by Dugtrio which causes Tyranitar to be wary of even being played in the game. Hippowdon can come in on the CB Fire users, such as Victini and Darmanitan, that find themselves on Sun teams (by the way it is one of the best switchin's to them outside of Heatran).
  21. bubbly

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    This conversation is getting absolutely ridiculous. TPDB is pretty much right about everything he said. Tyranitar's special defense does give it massive advantages in terms of switching in to Politoed and offensive Tales (like that even exists lol). But, Dugtrio is incredibly common, as has been said, and more importantly imo, because of the Genesect / Heatran centralism almost every team carries one of Terrakion or Keldeo. Tyranitar is by far the bigger set up bait than Hippowdon; the only real reason to use it on a team at the moment over Hippowdon is to support Keldeo and co. Please don't argue that it counters Latios, because although it does, Tyranitar teams usually carry Genesect as well as another Steel anyway.
    That said I do think Tyranitar should move up to A tier. Sandstream on a reasonably useful pokemon is enough to justify that.

    Oh, and throwing my support behind Venusaur for A tier.
  22. jrrrrrrr

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    | 7 | Tyranitar | 87938 | 14.187% |

    | 54 | Hippowdon | 22108 | 3.567% |

    Can someone trying to tell me that Hippowdon is better than Tyranitar please explain this? This is September's usage so I'm not sure about how Genesect will factor into it, but Genesect kills TTar and Hippo both pretty bad so I don't see it being a variable. Tyranitar takes any non-Bug move better (lolz Iron Head) so if it's not a draw then it goes TTars way.

    What does Hippowdon switch into so it can spam Slack Off? So far the only answer I've seen is Victini and Darmanitan, two UU mons. On the OU list I see Conkledurr, Donphan, some Garchomp, some Gliscor, some Jirachi, some Scizor, some Terrakion, some Tyranitar...and that's it. 8 out of 50 OU mons, and a few of them aren't even common. The rest of OU (42/50 mons) completely destroy Hippo with an OHKO, prevent him from switching in with a 2HKO or set up hazards on him.
  23. alkinesthetase

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    very true. i cannot argue for all the things being thrown around regarding hippowdon, but sdef hippo is a lot better than it appears right now. the problem is probably that people are still running some random 240 sdef impish spreads. that shit does not work anymore; you're just a crappier physdef hippo in that case. but 252 sdef careful with 25 IV in defense means genesect gets an ATTACK boost on switching into you. scarf genesect does less than 50% max with ice beam, meaning it cannot cripple you beyond repair as is popularly believed. ebelt is an easy read because it does minimum 50% with ice beam, but still max 60% so it has a challenging time killing you. with lefties you can actually beat it one on one, slacking off and slowly slipping in earthquakes to wear genesect down (ofc barring a crit). you could also just switch on the choice locked ice beam and set up on that mofo. running absolute maximum sdef, plus the slightly reduced defense IV, means genesect actually does not beat you.

    moreover the flamethrower does not hit hippowdon especially hard; the worst thing that happens to you is a burn. ttar resists it and gets the sdef boost so it will take it even better yes, and the sdef boost also means it takes ice beam much better yes, but +1 uturn will destroy tyranitar where as sdef hippo can comfortably take any of genesect's moves - +1 uturn, fthrow and even ice beam are all manageable.

    tl;dr sdef hippowdon does not lose to genesect in the slightest. ttar should probably be A anyway (i agree with most of the arguments presented in its favor) but hippowdon is not so bad that it's B outright.
  24. bubbly

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    The idea that Genesect's introduction to the meta wouldn't hurt Tyranitar vs Hippowdon in the usage stats is just dumb. SpDef Hippowdon, as alkines just demonstrated, handles Gene pretty nicely, whereas Tyranitar gets destroyed by U-turn. Even phys def Hippo handles Genesect better because it forces it to use Ice Beam to kill it, allowing set up. Also, Genesect has prompted the rise of three main pokemon (others as well, of course): Terrakion, Heatran and Dugtrio. Hippowdon obviously does far better against Terrakion and Dugtrio, and just as well against the most common Heatran variant, special defense Tran, because it has reliable recovery vs Tyranitar's Fire resist. Both don't like Burn, Hippowdon has recovery for longevity in weather wars, Tyranitar has the potential to use special attacks.

    Basically, jrrr, please think more.
  25. TLK

    TLK

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    Jirachi's sheer versatility and ability to be put on any team makes it one of the best Pokemon in the tier. It works great as a special wall and has returned as one of the top CS users too and has a devastating Calm Mind set.

    I'd say it fits in S tier. I rarely make a team without Jirachi on.
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