Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

[False Sense]

Fine lets play your game. Spore and regen, cute. So what exactly does it beat 100% of the time that warrants B-rank? How is it in the same level as things like tentacruel, bronzong, and blissey? Prove it's B-rank. I proved it isn't b/c it loses to the things it's supposed to beat. Amoongus was vastly over-hyped and people are still clinging to that.

I believe Tabuu summed it up very nicely. And I also believe that numerous others, myself included, gave you very good reasons as to why it's B-Rank. You can't just shrug off Spore and Regenerator and say their "cute." Their incredibly potent weapons Amoonguss wields that make Amoonguss a very effective wall. Oh, and no one's mentioned this yet, but that Thundurus-T you keep mentioning? Amoonguss can very viably run Stun Spore, which makes it one of the few viable pokemon in OU that can actually paralyze Thundurus-T. It also gives it something to do once it's spored something.

Oh, and it's also meant to beat another common threat; Breloom. And it does that fantastically. So no, it doesn't lose to everything it's meant to check.

Edit: One more thing;

*facepalm* Ok so you change the standard evs to some obscure set to prove your point but refuse to adjust celebi's spread accordingly? lol okay. "that what if" situation on whether or not it will survive is trivial.

Like Gato said, your own sets aren't the norm; by your own logic, your arguments are invalid.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

Fine lets play your game. Spore and regen, cute. So what exactly does it beat 100% of the time that warrants B-rank?

Perhaps you just don't understand the meaning of B-rank. Nobody is saying that amoonguss can beat Thundurus-T 100% of the time, probably the only thing that can beat it 100% all the time under optimal conditions would be gastrodon. But that's about all it can do. Now, if you think that amoonguss is beaten 100% of the time by Modest, Life Orb Nasty PlotThundurus-T 100% of the time, you're correct. But, as you can see here....

Thundurus-Therian

Timid:4/0/0/252/0/252 34.728%
Modest:4/0/0/252/0/252 22.660%
Timid:0/0/4/252/0/252 12.996%
Modest:40/0/96/252/16/104 6.140%

Life Orb 26.106%

Nasty Plot 25.429%

But, as you can see here there's a bit of variation with Thudurus-T, isn't there? You honestly can't tell me that every single Thundurus-T runs life orb modest nasty plot, and even the ones that use nasty plot don't always use LO + modest. Every other set of thundurus is beaten unless there is some prior damage, but let's let amoonguss have the best conditions for once, shall we?

To remind you, nobody said that amoonguss is better than celebi, is an amazing wall, or can beat thundurus-T 100% of the time. Your entire argument seems to be "it doesn't beat the things it's supposed to beat!" But it does; it just so happens that specs keldeo and LO modest nasty plot thundurus-T are things it is not supposed to beat.

Using gastrodon as a counter for thundurus-T and saying that makes it a better poke entirely than amoonguss is a terrible argument. Hey, cloyster can boost its offenses and speed at the same time and have near-perfect coverage and terrakion can't! Terrakion is a shit sweeper! That's exactly the kind of argument you're trying to make, albeit a bit exaggerated.

Gastrodon and celebi are better rain checks in general than amoonguss but to put it frankly amonguss can help support its team in some other ways. Spore, for one, is really just that good. The ability to incapacitate another pokemon almost completely is a really good ability. Even after spore is used, it doesn't become useless--it can use double powder to incapacitate more sweepers, such as garchomp or landorus that would not normally fear paralysis. Any attack that does not straight up deal about 40% to amoonguss results in the user being able to just switch in and absorb the damage with no consequences, which is incredible for a pivot.

That's what amoonguss is, a pivot, not a total rain counter like you think we think it is.

1. I already explained how it loses to keldeo.
2. Factor SR and LO in that Thunderus-t calc and come back to me.
3. If toxicroak carries as sub, it loses.

1. MODEST Specs Keldeo in the rain, used only 10% of the time with modest in the first place. Did you know celebi also loses to modest specs keldeo in the rain?
2. See above
3. wut

We're not making out amoonguss to be some kind of god wall, but it is an excellent pivot with spore and regenerator. It's just good, not that good, but good.

 

[False Sense]

*facepalm* Ok so you change the standard evs to some obscure set to prove your point but refuse to adjust celebi's spread accordingly? lol okay. "that what if" situation on whether or not it will survive is trivial. The point is hat it loses the majority of the time. the reason for the ev's is so that ammognus can break subs. W/o it, it loses to sub-cm keldeo and a bunch of other sub users. So lol, pick your poison here. If you don't understand how amoongus even works, that speaks volumes on what you know. You're so ignorant you don't even know how to use the pokemon you're defending. This completely discredits your argument.

It's been gone over in a million threads why usage is a shit argument, don't go there.

1. Timid Specs actually beats amoongus =0 check your calcs
2. see above but switch keldeo with +2 thunderus
3. Toxicroak commonly carries a sub, see its on site analysis.

So, you go from insulting Tabuu's intelligence because he used an "obscure EV spread" for an argument, and then you say that usage means nothing?

People can change EVs and sets from the norm to suit their needs. If they want to have an Amoonguss that better checks Thundurus-T, than they can change it to accomplish that goal better.

 

[False Sense]

Insulting? Excuse me, I'm being blunt here. If you don't know how to use the pokemon you're arguing for, then you don't know what you're talking about. Calling somebody ignorant is saying they don't know something, it's not an insult per say. Likewise, usage has nothing to do with viability. Look at every thread on smogon, and they'll tell you the same.

I'm in no way saying that usage reflects viability; I was referring to your own hypocrisy. Your using less-than-common sets to support your own argument, but then bash on Tabuu for showing his own less-than-common solution. And his changes were fine; he did indeed "pick his poison," as you'd say. He chose to check one threat over another, and that's fine.

And we clearly have different opinions on what an insult is, so I won't try and argue that.

 

[False Sense]

There's a huge difference that you don't seem to understand. The sets I listed are actually viable, the alternate spread isn't. Get that through your head. That's the difference. There is no hypocrisy here. You just don't get the argument and time after time, you fail to understand.

Unviable? That's a huge overstatement. You realize that the Sp.Atk EVs run on the standard set are used pretty much just for SubCM Keldeo. That set in itself is uncommon, since it loses precious coverage and there are other sets you could use. (Choice Scarf and Choice Specs, notably.) Answer me this; are you honestly saying that because it handles one less-than-common threat less efficiently, that his spread is an unviable, crackpot of an EV spread?

 

[Mr. Uncompetitive]

There's a huge difference that you don't seem to understand. The sets I listed are actually viable, the alternate spread isn't. Get that through your head. That's the difference. There is no hypocrisy here. You just don't get the argument and time after time, you fail to understand.

Just because they aren't the most common spread doesn't mean the spread is unviable. As long as the spread is performing a certain task that the user wants from it efficiently, assuming the task makes logical sense, then it's viable. The spread Tabuu gives is viable because it meets his needs of simply wanting as much special bulk as possible, not minding to much about the loss in Special Attack. Since that is a purpose that does indeed make sense, the spread is perfectly viable

 

[Halcyon.]

Ok, I consider myself to be a nice, calm, guy. But fuck this shit.

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Amoonguss in rain: 186-219 (43.05 - 50.69%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Happy? No, Specs Keldeo can't 2HKO unless Amoongus does something OTHER than Giga Drain, which is just stupid.

Modest Nasty Plot Life Orb Thundurus-T doesn't exist. That's like citing Adamant Terrakion beating Gliscor at +2. That's just dumb because it isn't used. Stop saying it is. And why did you compare HP Ice on Gastrodon to HP Ice on Amoongus? +2 Focus Blast and the HP Ice KO's Gastrodon too, whose ONLY job is to counter Thundurus-T. Please, please, stop trying to compare the two anyway. One has Regenerator and Spore, the other doesn't.

Amoongus beats what it has to and nothing more. And even if it can't beat something, it, unlike other Pokémon, actually GAINS something from switching out.

 

[False Sense]

He tweeked an ev spread that loses out on more threats(because it can't break subs) to prove a point. I meant to say it is not as efficient, like I did 2 posts ago. The spread is shit. You have a very small chance of beating one keldeo and but then you lose to another. Don't you get how that's a flawed argument? Or do I have to keep dumbing things down and breaking it down one by one for you to get it?

SO, out of curiosity, what are these other Sub users that Amoonguss can't break past? Since this is a critical part of your argument, I would like some clarification.

Hey! I got the 2000th post!

 

[False Sense]

Garchomp, gengar(need HP), latias, and conkeldurr. There subs have a chance to live through the attack(s). The evs are mostly built for +1 keldeo, though. But these are also important sub users.

Hm... Out of curiosity, do you have any calculations to back this up? Those are common substitute users, yes, but do those EVs really make all the difference?

 

[lokt]

You're not reading what I wrote. Celebi can switch into specs keldeo. Gastro is a reliable switch in to thunderus-t. There are good walls that can beat them. Amoongus can't. Tha't's the whole darn point. Reading comprehension, use it. The only offensive rain threat it can beat 100% of the time is rotom-w, don't you think that's pretty shitty?

Celebi barely(if it even) beats specs keldeo better than amoongus.
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Ghost vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Celebi: 168-198 (41.58 - 49%) -- 25.78% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
That's a 2hko with a little residual damage(a volt switch from rotom or another sr switchin)
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Amoonguss in rain: 186-219 (43.05 - 50.69%) -- 58.98% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
While that is about 30% more likely to ko, consider that celebi will surely be 2hko'd if slightly damaged, but amoongus can survive due to being able to regenerate after switching out. This is not even considering the use of hp bug keldeo! :)
Also, with Thundurus-t, amoongus does better than celebi against any non nasty plot sets due to being able to regenerate against them. They both lose to nasty plot since celebi is basically set up fodder for np thundurus...

 

[Magcargo]

Could we stop this war please, clearly neither side can convince the other, so there is no point.

On another note, I'd like to see what people's opinions are on moving Tyranitar up to S-rank. Tyranitar has been one of the most dominant pokemon ever, and despite the plethora of Fighting types in Gen V, has managed to keep a top 5 usage ranking. It can be argued that Rain outclasses Sand, but Tyranitar is the main weather setter of Sand, which hugely influences the game. However, unlike Politoed or Ninetales, it is not only used for its excellent ability, but for its excellent stats and different sets that support teams very well. Many teams run this monster not because it is a sand team, but because they use Tyranitar's excellent skills. Tyranitar's biggest stat is its Atk, and the very common CB TTar set puts it to excellent use. I'm sure many of you have seen it paired with Keldeo or Sheer Force Landorus to eliminate their counters with Pursuit, which is amazing utility. This same Pursuit helps win weather wars, and shuts down many top threats in the metagame. Other popular sets are its support sets, focusing on Tyranitar's SpD, boosted up by 50% by sand. This makes TTar, along with its HP stat, a great Specially Defensive wall. It is a solid setter of SR and has great lifespan as well. Another viable set it runs is the CS set, one rarely seen nowadays, but one that can catch its usual counters off guard. Also, thanks to TTar's decent SpA, it can effectively run a mixed lure set with Expert Belt, which can also tear holes through many teams. Like all pokemon, it has its flaws, namely that it gets crushed by Fighting types and Scizor, but since TTar has so many strengths, they outweigh its flaws. I believe Tyranitar's many strengths and superiority over other weather setters, as well as the way it eliminates teammates' counters, make it fit the S-rank definition like a glove.

I disagree. Tyranitar is a defining force in the metagame, but common weaknesses a low speed really hold him back. While almost nothing can switch into tyranitar, the t-rex is VERY easy to check. Terrakion and keldeo are hard checks, while scizor and breloom can easily revenge kill it. His lack of reliable recovery means that he won't stay in the battle very long, unlike his friend hippowdon. Tyranitar may have a good special movepool, but 95 base special attack is a bit lagging. I agree that tyranitar is a big threat, but it isn't S-Rank material.

I would also like to add nidoqueen to the D-Rank. Nidoqueen is an amazing check to terrakion and some tyranitar and has good bulk and offenses. Earthpower and ice beam hit pretty hard coming off her 112 base Special attack (factoring sheer force) and most physical attackers have a hard time getting past her (EX: Scizor, breloom, terrakion). All in all, nidoqueen is a really decent pokemn and deserves to be added to the D-rank.

 

[False Sense]

You can run it yourself if you're not convinced. But with the appropriate attack amoongus can break the sub 100% (for keldeo) of the time as opposed to it being a coin flip. :)
For the others, it raises the chance to break past the sub, greatly.

Well, I ran the calculations for each pokemon you brought up; here are the results.

28SpAtk Amoonguss (Neutral) Hidden Power (Ice) vs 4HP/0SpDef Garchomp (Neutral): 58% - 69% (208 - 248 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

0SpAtk Amoonguss (Neutral) Hidden Power (Ice) vs 4HP/0SpDef Garchomp (Neutral): 56% - 67% (204 - 240 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

0SpAtk Amoonguss (Neutral) Hidden Power (Ice) vs 4HP/0SpDef Levitate Gengar (Neutral): 21% - 25% (56 - 67 HP). Guaranteed 5HKO.

28SpAtk Amoonguss (Neutral) Hidden Power (Ice) vs 4HP/0SpDef Levitate Gengar (Neutral): 22% - 26% (58 - 69 HP). Guaranteed 5HKO.

28SpAtk Amoonguss (Neutral) Hidden Power (Ice) vs 252HP/0SpDef Levitate Latias (Neutral): 20% - 24% (74 - 88 HP). Guaranteed 5HKO.

0SpAtk Amoonguss (Neutral) Hidden Power (Ice) vs 252HP/0SpDef Levitate Latias (Neutral): 19% - 23% (70 - 84 HP). Guaranteed 6HKO.

0SpAtk Amoonguss (Neutral) Giga Drain vs 252HP/0SpDef Conkeldurr (Neutral): 24% - 28% (102 - 120 HP). Guaranteed 5HKO.

28SpAtk Amoonguss (Neutral) Giga Drain vs 252HP/0SpDef Conkeldurr (Neutral): 24% - 29% (103 - 123 HP). Guaranteed 5HKO.

0SpAtk Amoonguss (Neutral) Hidden Power (Ice) vs 4HP/0SpDef Levitate Latias (Neutral): 23% - 27% (70 - 84 HP). Guaranteed 5HKO.

28SpAtk Amoonguss (Neutral) Hidden Power (Ice) vs 4HP/0SpDef Levitate Latias (Neutral): 24% - 29% (74 - 88 HP). Guaranteed 5HKO.

So let's analyze, shall we?

Garchomp: Nope, it does well over 25% no matter the investment. So the EVs don't matter here.

Latias: It's never going to break the sub even with investment. No significant changes here. And assuming your 4/0 EV set, it's only a very small increase. I would hardly call this significant.

Gengar: Ok, so it's doing 2 more damage overall, and has a 1% chance increase of breaking the sub. I mean, I suppose it's something, but be realistic here, that's not going to make or break somethings viability.

Conkeldurr: Basically same case as Gengar, except smaller. Seriously, the difference is miniscule.

Oh, and Keldeo?

0SpAtk Amoonguss (Neutral) Giga Drain vs 0HP/4SpDef Keldeo Resolution (Neutral): 47% - 56% (152 - 182 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 19% chance to 2HKO.

28SpAtk Amoonguss (Neutral) Giga Drain vs 0HP/4SpDef Keldeo Resolution (Neutral): 48% - 58% (158 - 188 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 24% chance to 2HKO.

28SpAtk Amoonguss (Neutral) Giga Drain vs 0HP/4SpDef +1 Keldeo Resolution (Neutral): 33% - 39% (108 - 128 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

0SpAtk Amoonguss (Neutral) Giga Drain vs 0HP/4SpDef +1 Keldeo Resolution (Neutral): 31% - 37% (102 - 122 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.

Funny, with no boosts Keldeo's Sub will always be broken by a Giga Drain, and even with one boost the sub will still always break. And there's no way Keldeo can keep setting up Subs and Calm Minds enough to ward off the attacks. Keldeo will lose. Therefore, your arguments about the EV spreads have just been proven false, I believe.

 

[PureQuestion]

I'm actually gonna make a really interesting aside note here: Amoonguss learns Foul Play, which can actually do a surprising amount of very handy things... for example:

0- Atk Amoonguss Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 94-112 (25.82 - 30.76%) -- possible 4HKO

Breaks Latias' subs (even with 0 atk IV Latias), most interestingly.

Spore+Foul Play is really good against physical set up mons - I've killed DDnite on several occasions with nothing but Foul Play.

But maybe I'm just crazy.

 

[Gary]

I'm not going to extend this argument any further since it seems to be going nowhere, but I just want to say one thing. If you've never used Amoonguss in OU, then don't argue against it. I used to think it was terrible in OU, until I used it myself. Amazing Rain counter to Keldeo, Politoad, Terrakion, Breloom, and even shuts down Venusaur with the proper special defensive investment. Regenerator makes him extremely difficult to wear him down gradually, and being immune to Toxic makes that even harder as well. The combination of Spore and Stun Spore is extremely terrifying, and Stun Spore can nab the paralysis on things such as Thundurus-T and RP Landorus.

I would say it's low B-Rank material, but I think it fits just fine in B-Rank. It has access to a recovery move, an amazing ability, useful resistances, and a can cripple an entire team with just two moves. He's a great Pokemon, and I think a lot of people are underestimating it's walling capabilities.

 

[False Sense]

Reading comprehension. Learn2Read. I said it would increase their chances, greatly. And it does. Garchomp has a chance to tank a giga drain with its sub. Plus conk and gengar are right on the mark. Check evs for 4/0 Latias and HP ice, compare lack of SpA evs to none. Giga drain evs are meant to break past +1 and +2 keldeo, not +0. How much of it do I have to break things down to and not dumb it down for you to get it? So no it's not wrong. Sorry break it to you. The ev spread is even listed on site, this argument is against you.

Garchomp has a chance to tank a Giga Drain... WHAT? Uhh... did you even read those calcs? If you have HP Ice (which you apparently would to do that damage to those Gengars and Conkeldurrs) you should use IT on Garchomp. Who in their right mind would use Giga Drain on Garchomp when they had HP Ice?

I wouldn't say that the incredibly small increase in the chance of breaking Gengar and Conkeldurr's Subs would be considered a greatly increased chance. We're talking about +7 points to Amoonguss's Special Attack. 7 points. Think about that for a second.

You know that the standard for SubCM Latias is Max HP? Yeah, because otherwise the set is less viable. Wait, why is Amoonguss even trying to go up against a Latias anyway?

As for Keldeo, let me paint a scenario for you. Let's say a Keldeo just switched in after a kill. I go to my full health Amoonguss to check it as it sets up a Calm Mind/Sub. The next turn it sets up Sub/Calm Mind while Amoonguss Giga Drains, breaking the Sub. Then Keldeo is exposed and has to try and either set up a Sub, which will be broken, or Calm Mind, while Amoonguss still lays the hurt on it with Giga Drain. It's not looking good for Keldeo, is it now?

Well, I've tried my best to reason here, but my logic (as well as EVERYONE ELSE's) is apparently falling deaf ears. I suppose PK Gaming could maybe come in and say something, but short of that I don't think Icecream is going to be convinced.

 

[TCTphantom]

Nominating Icecream for suspect.

JK. :)

In all seriousness, Amoongus aint that bad. I personally view it is blessed with Regenerator, Spore, and Clear Smog, which mean it is great on stall. A FWG core of Amoongus, Heatran, and Slowbro is amazing. It works well in weatherless stall, rain stall, and sand stall. Amoongus is able to take hits rather well. Hell, due to it, I beat Terrakion, Garchomp, and Breloom, three powerhouses, 1 on 1. True, the Garchomp was a Scarfchomp, but I still took it on. Also, Amoongus is one of the few walls that does not cry when taunted. That alone is sweet to me.

 

[False Sense]

I was mentioning Giga Drain, not HP Ice, do you really think I would mention chomp if I was talking about giga drain. Also please, as I said, the on-site analysis speaks against you. This whole aspect of the argument was based off of a tangent anyway, the whole point is that amoongus can hardly wall anything in succession. and that has been proven to your dismay.

Excuse me? Sorry, but I think you're wording is off in that sentence. What move are you talking about, Giga Drain or HP Ice, and how is that relevant? And how is the on site analysis against me? Please clarify.

 

[lokt]

Lol, I've been asking that, but nothing comes up. What does it beat(no rotom-w) besides those 3 threats I mentioned, every other special attacker in OU can 2HKO/OHKO it by virtue of their stabs alone. You answer that.

@Gary2346 I have more experience with amoongus than people arguing for B-rank, hence why I know the value of its evs and what it beats and what it doesn't don't so don't attempt to discredit me.

Breloom, Blissey, Gastrodon, Jellicent, Jolteon, Keldeo, Magnezone, Politoed, Rotom-W, Thundurus-T, Vaporeon. The fact that it beats the 4 pokemon i bolded is amazing since they only have maybe 2 counters. It can consistently check them due to regenerator.

 

[Magcargo]

I'm not going to take place in this arguement since its pretty pointless.

Anyway, I would like to prpose adding Scrafty to the D-Rank. Scrafty has perfect type coverage and decent defense. However, it is often more trouble than it is worth because of mediocre attacking stats and HP. In a metage dominated by special attacker, bulk up isn't as good as a move to use on scrafty, espicially considering Scrafty's common weaknesses. It is also hard walled by toxicroak, who only fear EQ. Scrafty is also slow, meaning that even after a ragon dance, it is outsped by starmie and jolteon. Scrafty CAN be useful, but is not the beast that it was in BW1.

Also, what do you guys think about adding nidoqueen to D-rank? I explained in my previous post.

 

[False Sense]

The onsite analysis lists the 28 spA evs as standard, meaning they are important. Also amoongus can only wall 2 pokemon 100%. That's pretty bad. As I've proven to you, so many things can break past it, it's not even funny. That's the definition of niche and c-rank.

The on site analysis is not the law; and I believe that through calculations I've proven that Amoonguss does not need those EVs. If you're only defense is that the on site analysis says so, then we have an issue. Also, you have proven nothing. You've provided no calculations and only loose details, while everyone around you has provided hard evidence for their case. Please, PLEASE provide this proof that Amoonguss can only wall two pokemon, and prove every single other person on this thread wrong.

And what move is Breloom using that is hitting Amoonguss for SE? Unless I misunderstood the meaning of SE.

 

[Punchshroom]

Foul Play isn't too bad actually, it gives defensive mons an offensive presence. The problem with Amoonguss is that Foul Play's targets tend to be few and far between, only being handy on Dark-weak targets (which are physically inept) and DDers/SDers (those who survive can squash you afterwards).

 

[lokt]

The onsite analysis lists the 28 spA evs as standard, meaning they are important. Also amoongus can only wall 2 pokemon 100%. That's pretty bad. As I've proven to you, so many things can break past it, it's not even funny. That's the definition of niche and c-rank. High risk, low reward.



Please for the love of god, read back and see how it doesn't beat thunderus and keldeo. Also blissey? LOL Blissey outstalls. Breloom can spore amoongus, set up swords dance and nail it with +2 SE, so no that.

Read what I said about keldeo and thundurus-t.

Celebi barely(if it even) beats specs keldeo better than amoongus.
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Ghost vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Celebi: 168-198 (41.58 - 49%) -- 25.78% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
That's a 2hko with a little residual damage(a volt switch from rotom or another sr switchin)
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Amoonguss in rain: 186-219 (43.05 - 50.69%) -- 58.98% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
While that is about 30% more likely to ko, consider that celebi will surely be 2hko'd if slightly damaged, but amoongus can survive due to being able to regenerate after switching out. This is not even considering the use of hp bug keldeo! :)
Also, with Thundurus-t, amoongus does better than celebi against any non nasty plot sets due to being able to regenerate against them. They both lose to nasty plot since celebi is basically set up fodder for np thundurus...

And breloom is after something is slept. SD breloom doesn't carry stone edge anyways.
I'm also wondering how you play amoongus. Switch in on Blissey, spore it, the get a free switch in. Your argument is basically: many things beat it 1v1. amoongus isn't supposed to be played like that. It should be used as a pivot against choiced attackers and disrupting the opponent's team with spore.

 

[False Sense]

I just did... omfg, Thunderus and Keldeo break past it, every other attacker in ou can get around it besides Jolteon and Rotom-w. I gave calcs, plenty actually. Not it's your turn. Prove it. Prove it walls more than 2 pokemon 100% of the time.

SE=Stone Edge

What kind of a Breloom has Swords Dance, Spore and Stone Edge on one set? Bullet Seed and Mach Punch usually take up those slots for precious Technician STAB.

 

[Arcticblast]

Anyway, I would like to prpose adding Scrafty to the D-Rank. Scrafty has perfect type coverage and decent defense. However, it is often more trouble than it is worth because of mediocre attacking stats and HP. In a metage dominated by special attacker, bulk up isn't as good as a move to use on scrafty, espicially considering Scrafty's common weaknesses. It is also hard walled by toxicroak, who only fear EQ. Scrafty is also slow, meaning that even after a ragon dance, it is outsped by starmie and jolteon. Scrafty CAN be useful, but is not the beast that it was in BW1.

Also, what do you guys think about adding nidoqueen to D-rank? I explained in my previous post.

Although I disagree with adding Nidoqueen, I have to agree with adding Scrafty to D-Rank (having been on the receiving end of DD Scrafty multiple times... ouch). Its stats are a bit low, but hey - Fighting/Dark is great STAB, it gets not two but THREE great abilities, and its bulk is something a lot of sweepers could only dream of.

Also, let's keep Amoonguss where it is and stop trying to kill each other over a mushroom. Drugs are bad, kids. yes I made a shrooms joke

 

[Halcyon.]

Yeah, I'm moving on. Let's talk Tyranitar, cause I think that has some potential to start a real discussion. I'm not quite sure if it has the potential to be S rank. On the one hand, he is an absolute staple in BW, and his ability to Pursuit trap things that wall Keldeo and Landorus is unbelievably helpful and influential. But it also has a big weakness to fighting, low speed, and there aren't as many sand abusers as there used to be (Excadrill). That being said, Tyranitar can now run bulky sets because Deo-D is gone, and Scarf sets now that Tornadus-T is gone, so he has some versatility. Not really sure, but I think he's more A rank. I'm not opposed to S rank, though.