CB dragonite is very good, its just that dragon dance 'nite makes best use of its amazing ability, as it can always get up a free dragon dance, which gets it to +1 attack assumung stealth rock is off the field. because of stealth rock, dragonite needs spinner support and doesn't really like switching in too much, it's more of a late game sweeper. CB nite trys to switch in more often, and is good with extremespeed, outrage, etc, but the DD set is usually better.
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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread
- Thread starter PK Gaming
- Start date
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With some people kinda debating on the subdivisions. I'll try to help out and make my own personal list for subdivisions on the A-Rank Pokemon. This can be used as a first draft of some sort or a reference point to debate off of.
I don't know how long I can keep this up. I'll edit this and finish it up with descriptions and reasonings soon.
A+
Celebi: Celebi is an incredible Pokemon in the current meta. It's sole existence can literally change the entire purpose of a specific Pokemon (the rise of Ebelt HP Bug Keldeo) Celebi is pretty much the best Pokemon in the game against Rain and Sand teams especially with Baton Pass. With the current metagame being filled to the brim with Rain/Sand, I would (personally) call it the best A-Rank Pokemon. Its weakness to sun is not too big of a problem when it partners amazingly with Heatran; arguably the best Sun Check in the game.
Garchomp: Garchomp is a beast. It has been nominated here to S-Rank a few times before. SubSD YacheChomp can possibly be the most threatening wallbreaker that ever existed (Hi Hydreigon) and the SubSalac Chomp set that is starting to rise is really good as well. It can also run Choice sets very effectively, with CB Garchomp hitting really damn hard. The funniest part about this entire thing is that I haven't even spoken about the Stealth Rock sets, which shows how diverse of an offensive threat this thing can be. It also works well with most weather teams, using Aqua Tail Garchomp in the Rain (cuz screw Lando-T) as well as having great synergy with the main weather sweepers (Garchomp works with Stoutland well, especially with Fblast Lure. I've seen a few Rain teams with Chomp in it, as well as Sun). Garchomp is pretty much the ideal goodstuffs mon. Deservant of A+
Hippowdon: Probably the first thing that's gonna be disagreed with. Hippowdon is a really good Pokemon. It functions as a solid physical wall while being a massive asset in Sand Stall teams -- a rather commonly seen playstyle in tournaments. Hippowdon can also function as either an incredible mixed wall, or a sole physical wall to pretty much stop guys like Terrakion right in there tracks. It is also imo the most reliable SR setter for stall teams in the entire game. Hippowdon is also the only weather inducer that has recovery (Abomasnow has Leech Seed, TUO is a filthy liar) which gives it a massive advantage in the weather war -- which is really important in BW2.
Jirachi: You probably got blown up by SubCM Jirachi one time in your life. You probably also got super pissed off at ParaFlinch Rachi. You also probably got surprise-revenge killed by a Scarf Jirachi. That's just the start. Jirachi is so versatile but it doesn't suffer the "jack of all trades; master of none" syndrome as it can run pretty much every set it uses to its fullest effect and can each of them really well. It can also pretty much fit into every playstyle. It is a great revenge killer on Hyper Offense teams, a good momentum setter/Lati@s check for sun (yeah I'm kinda pushing it) it can function like a beast in Rain, and works rather well on Sand Stall/Balanced teams. Jirachi is an incredibly good Pokemon all around.
Latios: Ironic that the Pokemon I'm talking about next is walled by the Pokemon above it. Well, Latios is a huge offensive threat. I just wanna make this quick because there really isn't much to say. Offensive check to Keldeo/Landorus/Breloom. Nearly nothing switches in. Trick cripples walls. Amazing bluffing capabilities with Expert Belt sets. Craps on Sun. Fastest Scarfer in the meta. Pretty much all you have to say about Latios. Dealing with KelTarBreloom while maintaining the most offensive momentum is quite the feat.
Thundurus-Therian: Alright remember what I said about Celebi? Well this thing is the 2nd best A-Rank mon. While Celebi is that good because of how anti-meta it is, Thundy-T is good because it's just overall good. Thundy-T can smash Rain really well while not really hampered by anything in the meta that weakens its effectiveness (like how Rain affects Nape, Kyurem-B with Fighting-Types etc.) as it can resolve any of those possible issues either with an Agility boost or a Nasty Plot boost. Thundurus-Therian can run 5 sets effectively: Nasty Plot dedicated Wallbreaker, Agility wrecks offense if it gets 1 boost, Double Dance is probably the best set, combining both above, Choice Scarf and Ebelt. Thundurus-Therian has a weird sense of versatility among those sets, even though it is just a mix and match of a few moves. It also brings a few resistances and immunities to the table which is always nice.
Tyranitar: Tyranitar is the key to letting the beasts roam wild (Keldeo and Landorus) Tyranitar fills a role that is probably the best thing to have in this meta -- a bulky but Powerful Pursuit user. Pursuit is so damn good in this meta with Psychic and Ghost-types being the main force that is used against the top ranked Pokemon in the current metagame. To add to that more, it has access to infinite sandstorm which is amazing with dealing with opposing weathers. That's not even the end of it. It can function as an exceptional lure with either mixed sets, or just 2HKOing the Skarmory with a CB Stone Edge after SR. There are a lot of interesting sets that are being discovered for this guy which makes him unpredictable while giving massive offensive utility to a team. Lastly, it can also be good on stall teams that suffer against Latios (think Amoongbro) as well as being really bulky with the Specially Defensive set.
A
Dragonite: Dragonite is a shadow of what is used to be in BW1. It's still effective, but a lot less then it used to be. Dragonite has 2 good sets atm: CB and DD. I have to say CBNite is absolutely brilliant. It's really bulky thanks to multiscale and it's good resistances and smashes every single switch-in with proper prediction. The other set is Dragon Dance, which is still a good mid-game sweeper hole puncher that can do really well opening some guys up thanks to it having good ways to setup. The meta is still rather unkind to it with checks to Dnite going left and right. However, Dragonite is just so good overall that it can maintain its place as a staple in OU. Actually, the reason I'm keeping this in A rather than A- is just because it has the rare ability to check Sun.
Ferrothorn: Ferrothorn is a very good wall. It has access to the coveted SR+Spikes combo while still having access to good support moves that stop it from being setup bait such as Twave and Gyro Ball. It also has good longevity in the form of Leech Seed. Ferrothorn pretty much has all the stuff to be a good wall. A Water resist, a dragon resist, and amazing typing which is complimented by the best playstyle out there. However, the fact that the main offensive S-Rank threats can beat it out as well as the idea that Ferrothorn is a rare sight outside of rain in high levels of play limits Ferrothorn to A.
Heatran: Heatran is a Pokemon that loses to all the S-Rank Pokemon, loses to every rain Pokemon, every Fighting Pokemon and is possible to trap but this thing is still all the way up here. This is due to the fact that Heatran deals with nearly everything else. I have a lot of trouble not fitting him into my team unless it's really dumb to do so because he brings a lot of offensive utility to the plate. It offensively checks sun which is invaluable, it sets up SR, resists Dragon while beating Magnezone, it walls Scizor with proper prediction, it nukes everything in Sun, it has ~8 sets that it can run. Hopefully that's all you need to know. If they removed the main Water and Fighting-Type Pokemon here, I would say that this would be the best Pokemon in the game. I never really used much or have trouble with the Specially defensive set, but it has been used to great effect so anyone can comment here.
Jellicent: I'm kinda on the fence with this one. It's really good in walling Keldeo and has a Water+Fighting Immunity, while being a good defensive spinblocker. However, it's kinda niche and has weakness to Pursuit while it can't really do much to a lot of Pokemon. I rarely use this but from what I've seen this thing is in limbo between A and A-.
Kyurem-B: Alright something I can talk about better now. Kyurem-Black can easily just knock a Pokemon out. If it sets up a Sub, it's pretty much game over for one of your mons. The fact that it is so easy to put someone in lose-lose situations just by getting Kyurem-B in is terrifying. It's the bulkiest dragon iirc with solid defensive typing that has a Water and Electric-resist which is invaluable against Rain. Of course this is a problem against Fighting and Rock-Types, but it really isn't meant to deal with them, as well as the fact that they can't switch in. Kyurem-B is also very diverse in role, it can function well on pretty much every archetype of a team as well. Of course, its susceptibility to being revenge killed pretty much forces it in A Tier.
Latias: Read what I said about Latios checking Sun teams and KelTarLando, just double that. Latias can possibly be the biggest problem to any Pokemon that it can comfortably resist. It is pretty much the most reliable Special Pivot in the game. It can function on Stall teams and Offense teams, either with it's LO set or the SubCM Set. It does suffer some issues with being giant Tyranitar fodder. As well as being really easy to wall with the Life Orb set (a lot easier than most people think) as well as having a Pursuit Weakness and
easy to abuse problems on the defensive set.
Landorus-T: Landorus-Therian is probably in limbo between A+ and A. It is the best Physical pivot in the game. With Stealth Rock, U-Turn, Intimidate, and amazing coverage, it is amazing at switching in while giving massive utility to the team while maintaining offensive momentum. Landorus-Therian also bodies DragMag teams. As it can tank most unboosted Outrages without being weak to Magnezone. It's typing is also really good for a wall. I also need to mention that Landorus-T has a lot more sets than people think. Rock Polish or Double Dance is friggin scary to deal with as a lot of people underrate that massive Attack stat of his and can easily catch guys off guard. Its massive weakness to rain and its lack of reliable recovery forces it down to A Rank rather than A+
Ninetales: Lowest weather inducer for a reason. It sets up Sun and doesn't do anything aside from that. Even then, it relies on Dugtrio/Gothitelle/Heatran in order to win the weather war. It is the centerpiece of an extremely powerful playstyle but is terrible standalone and relies on too much team support just to do its own goal. That just makes it quick.
Rotom-W: Rotom-W is good. It is a unique check to a lot of stuff and is very good at maintaining momentum with Volt Switch. It can run a few sets such as SpD Rotom or Scarf Rotom-W and can surprise guys like SpD Celebi by Tricking it, potentially rendering it useless. Rotom-W functions as a decent check to rain thanks to it's good defensive typing. Lastly, Levitate makes it an amazing check against a majority of Ground-Types in the tier. Rotom-W is probably the most annoying Pokemon that is viable right now.
Scizor: King of DPP, Powerful as ever. I honestly hope this is self-explanatory. Scizor is a solid revenge killer and hole puncher until now. It has good synergy with a lot of great Pokemon like Thundurus-T and has a really powerful priority attack. Scizor also can nab momentum with U-Turn really well as it can lure the likes of Jellicent in to get trapped by a Tyranitar, or U-Turning into Gothitelle when they send out Tentacruel (btw, Gothitelle/Scizor is brilliant) Of course, the fact that it gives Keldeo free switch in opportunities and it lacks a proper affiliaton with weather makes it drop down from A+ to A.
Starmie: Starmie is the best spinner. Offensive spinner is really good while checking Keldeo. It can also dent most Tyranitar with an offensive set given you can somehow make the opponent assume you are Bulky. It functions exceptionally in Rain and against rain, which is really good to have in the current meta. It does have some sorta 4MSS though while having a Pursuit weakness hinders it from A-Rank.
Volcarona: Alright everyone will probably disagree with me here. However, if you look at a lot of RMTs lately. Every single thing is 6-0'd by Volcarona (exaggeration). Volcarona works so well as an anti-metagame force in the current moment by smashing nearly every single sand team given it can get enough setup opportunities (weaken Keldeo) and HP Ground volc says GG to Sand Stall. Volcarona also can kill sun so easily while functioning in sun itself. It is most commonly seen in Sun but can also still be used in rain with Hurricane. Volcarona's SR weakness seems like too big of an issue, but the fact that most sun's team entire plan is to get SR Off the field makes Volcarona not struggle too much. Actually, it's biggest problem might be susceptibility to scarfers.
A-
Alakazam: An amazing safety blanket to offensive teams against opposing offensive teams. In a metagame where one needs to establish a superior offensive presence over the other offensive team, Alakazam flourishes as an offensive momentum disruptor. Alakazam does have some obvious flaws such as Pursuit weakness and it can't really do much outside of Sash but overall Alakazam is still good.
Breloom: Breloom was near S-Rank when it came out with technician imo. However, it really dropped because now, most teams easily have a check to it and it isn't too hard to deal with Breloom. Breloom does offer a ton of versatility and works really well on a lot of Hyper Offense teams. I personally don't see Breloom as a top tier threat anymore. However, Breloom is still really threatening.
Gengar:
Kyurem:
Mamoswine:
Salamence:
Skarmory:
Tentacruel
Venusaur:
Celebi: Celebi is an incredible Pokemon in the current meta. It's sole existence can literally change the entire purpose of a specific Pokemon (the rise of Ebelt HP Bug Keldeo) Celebi is pretty much the best Pokemon in the game against Rain and Sand teams especially with Baton Pass. With the current metagame being filled to the brim with Rain/Sand, I would (personally) call it the best A-Rank Pokemon. Its weakness to sun is not too big of a problem when it partners amazingly with Heatran; arguably the best Sun Check in the game.
Garchomp: Garchomp is a beast. It has been nominated here to S-Rank a few times before. SubSD YacheChomp can possibly be the most threatening wallbreaker that ever existed (Hi Hydreigon) and the SubSalac Chomp set that is starting to rise is really good as well. It can also run Choice sets very effectively, with CB Garchomp hitting really damn hard. The funniest part about this entire thing is that I haven't even spoken about the Stealth Rock sets, which shows how diverse of an offensive threat this thing can be. It also works well with most weather teams, using Aqua Tail Garchomp in the Rain (cuz screw Lando-T) as well as having great synergy with the main weather sweepers (Garchomp works with Stoutland well, especially with Fblast Lure. I've seen a few Rain teams with Chomp in it, as well as Sun). Garchomp is pretty much the ideal goodstuffs mon. Deservant of A+
Hippowdon: Probably the first thing that's gonna be disagreed with. Hippowdon is a really good Pokemon. It functions as a solid physical wall while being a massive asset in Sand Stall teams -- a rather commonly seen playstyle in tournaments. Hippowdon can also function as either an incredible mixed wall, or a sole physical wall to pretty much stop guys like Terrakion right in there tracks. It is also imo the most reliable SR setter for stall teams in the entire game. Hippowdon is also the only weather inducer that has recovery (Abomasnow has Leech Seed, TUO is a filthy liar) which gives it a massive advantage in the weather war -- which is really important in BW2.
Jirachi: You probably got blown up by SubCM Jirachi one time in your life. You probably also got super pissed off at ParaFlinch Rachi. You also probably got surprise-revenge killed by a Scarf Jirachi. That's just the start. Jirachi is so versatile but it doesn't suffer the "jack of all trades; master of none" syndrome as it can run pretty much every set it uses to its fullest effect and can each of them really well. It can also pretty much fit into every playstyle. It is a great revenge killer on Hyper Offense teams, a good momentum setter/Lati@s check for sun (yeah I'm kinda pushing it) it can function like a beast in Rain, and works rather well on Sand Stall/Balanced teams. Jirachi is an incredibly good Pokemon all around.
Latios: Ironic that the Pokemon I'm talking about next is walled by the Pokemon above it. Well, Latios is a huge offensive threat. I just wanna make this quick because there really isn't much to say. Offensive check to Keldeo/Landorus/Breloom. Nearly nothing switches in. Trick cripples walls. Amazing bluffing capabilities with Expert Belt sets. Craps on Sun. Fastest Scarfer in the meta. Pretty much all you have to say about Latios. Dealing with KelTarBreloom while maintaining the most offensive momentum is quite the feat.
Thundurus-Therian: Alright remember what I said about Celebi? Well this thing is the 2nd best A-Rank mon. While Celebi is that good because of how anti-meta it is, Thundy-T is good because it's just overall good. Thundy-T can smash Rain really well while not really hampered by anything in the meta that weakens its effectiveness (like how Rain affects Nape, Kyurem-B with Fighting-Types etc.) as it can resolve any of those possible issues either with an Agility boost or a Nasty Plot boost. Thundurus-Therian can run 5 sets effectively: Nasty Plot dedicated Wallbreaker, Agility wrecks offense if it gets 1 boost, Double Dance is probably the best set, combining both above, Choice Scarf and Ebelt. Thundurus-Therian has a weird sense of versatility among those sets, even though it is just a mix and match of a few moves. It also brings a few resistances and immunities to the table which is always nice.
Tyranitar: Tyranitar is the key to letting the beasts roam wild (Keldeo and Landorus) Tyranitar fills a role that is probably the best thing to have in this meta -- a bulky but Powerful Pursuit user. Pursuit is so damn good in this meta with Psychic and Ghost-types being the main force that is used against the top ranked Pokemon in the current metagame. To add to that more, it has access to infinite sandstorm which is amazing with dealing with opposing weathers. That's not even the end of it. It can function as an exceptional lure with either mixed sets, or just 2HKOing the Skarmory with a CB Stone Edge after SR. There are a lot of interesting sets that are being discovered for this guy which makes him unpredictable while giving massive offensive utility to a team. Lastly, it can also be good on stall teams that suffer against Latios (think Amoongbro) as well as being really bulky with the Specially Defensive set.
A
Dragonite: Dragonite is a shadow of what is used to be in BW1. It's still effective, but a lot less then it used to be. Dragonite has 2 good sets atm: CB and DD. I have to say CBNite is absolutely brilliant. It's really bulky thanks to multiscale and it's good resistances and smashes every single switch-in with proper prediction. The other set is Dragon Dance, which is still a good mid-game sweeper hole puncher that can do really well opening some guys up thanks to it having good ways to setup. The meta is still rather unkind to it with checks to Dnite going left and right. However, Dragonite is just so good overall that it can maintain its place as a staple in OU. Actually, the reason I'm keeping this in A rather than A- is just because it has the rare ability to check Sun.
Ferrothorn: Ferrothorn is a very good wall. It has access to the coveted SR+Spikes combo while still having access to good support moves that stop it from being setup bait such as Twave and Gyro Ball. It also has good longevity in the form of Leech Seed. Ferrothorn pretty much has all the stuff to be a good wall. A Water resist, a dragon resist, and amazing typing which is complimented by the best playstyle out there. However, the fact that the main offensive S-Rank threats can beat it out as well as the idea that Ferrothorn is a rare sight outside of rain in high levels of play limits Ferrothorn to A.
Heatran: Heatran is a Pokemon that loses to all the S-Rank Pokemon, loses to every rain Pokemon, every Fighting Pokemon and is possible to trap but this thing is still all the way up here. This is due to the fact that Heatran deals with nearly everything else. I have a lot of trouble not fitting him into my team unless it's really dumb to do so because he brings a lot of offensive utility to the plate. It offensively checks sun which is invaluable, it sets up SR, resists Dragon while beating Magnezone, it walls Scizor with proper prediction, it nukes everything in Sun, it has ~8 sets that it can run. Hopefully that's all you need to know. If they removed the main Water and Fighting-Type Pokemon here, I would say that this would be the best Pokemon in the game. I never really used much or have trouble with the Specially defensive set, but it has been used to great effect so anyone can comment here.
Jellicent: I'm kinda on the fence with this one. It's really good in walling Keldeo and has a Water+Fighting Immunity, while being a good defensive spinblocker. However, it's kinda niche and has weakness to Pursuit while it can't really do much to a lot of Pokemon. I rarely use this but from what I've seen this thing is in limbo between A and A-.
Kyurem-B: Alright something I can talk about better now. Kyurem-Black can easily just knock a Pokemon out. If it sets up a Sub, it's pretty much game over for one of your mons. The fact that it is so easy to put someone in lose-lose situations just by getting Kyurem-B in is terrifying. It's the bulkiest dragon iirc with solid defensive typing that has a Water and Electric-resist which is invaluable against Rain. Of course this is a problem against Fighting and Rock-Types, but it really isn't meant to deal with them, as well as the fact that they can't switch in. Kyurem-B is also very diverse in role, it can function well on pretty much every archetype of a team as well. Of course, its susceptibility to being revenge killed pretty much forces it in A Tier.
Latias: Read what I said about Latios checking Sun teams and KelTarLando, just double that. Latias can possibly be the biggest problem to any Pokemon that it can comfortably resist. It is pretty much the most reliable Special Pivot in the game. It can function on Stall teams and Offense teams, either with it's LO set or the SubCM Set. It does suffer some issues with being giant Tyranitar fodder. As well as being really easy to wall with the Life Orb set (a lot easier than most people think) as well as having a Pursuit Weakness and
easy to abuse problems on the defensive set.
Landorus-T: Landorus-Therian is probably in limbo between A+ and A. It is the best Physical pivot in the game. With Stealth Rock, U-Turn, Intimidate, and amazing coverage, it is amazing at switching in while giving massive utility to the team while maintaining offensive momentum. Landorus-Therian also bodies DragMag teams. As it can tank most unboosted Outrages without being weak to Magnezone. It's typing is also really good for a wall. I also need to mention that Landorus-T has a lot more sets than people think. Rock Polish or Double Dance is friggin scary to deal with as a lot of people underrate that massive Attack stat of his and can easily catch guys off guard. Its massive weakness to rain and its lack of reliable recovery forces it down to A Rank rather than A+
Ninetales: Lowest weather inducer for a reason. It sets up Sun and doesn't do anything aside from that. Even then, it relies on Dugtrio/Gothitelle/Heatran in order to win the weather war. It is the centerpiece of an extremely powerful playstyle but is terrible standalone and relies on too much team support just to do its own goal. That just makes it quick.
Rotom-W: Rotom-W is good. It is a unique check to a lot of stuff and is very good at maintaining momentum with Volt Switch. It can run a few sets such as SpD Rotom or Scarf Rotom-W and can surprise guys like SpD Celebi by Tricking it, potentially rendering it useless. Rotom-W functions as a decent check to rain thanks to it's good defensive typing. Lastly, Levitate makes it an amazing check against a majority of Ground-Types in the tier. Rotom-W is probably the most annoying Pokemon that is viable right now.
Scizor: King of DPP, Powerful as ever. I honestly hope this is self-explanatory. Scizor is a solid revenge killer and hole puncher until now. It has good synergy with a lot of great Pokemon like Thundurus-T and has a really powerful priority attack. Scizor also can nab momentum with U-Turn really well as it can lure the likes of Jellicent in to get trapped by a Tyranitar, or U-Turning into Gothitelle when they send out Tentacruel (btw, Gothitelle/Scizor is brilliant) Of course, the fact that it gives Keldeo free switch in opportunities and it lacks a proper affiliaton with weather makes it drop down from A+ to A.
Starmie: Starmie is the best spinner. Offensive spinner is really good while checking Keldeo. It can also dent most Tyranitar with an offensive set given you can somehow make the opponent assume you are Bulky. It functions exceptionally in Rain and against rain, which is really good to have in the current meta. It does have some sorta 4MSS though while having a Pursuit weakness hinders it from A-Rank.
Volcarona: Alright everyone will probably disagree with me here. However, if you look at a lot of RMTs lately. Every single thing is 6-0'd by Volcarona (exaggeration). Volcarona works so well as an anti-metagame force in the current moment by smashing nearly every single sand team given it can get enough setup opportunities (weaken Keldeo) and HP Ground volc says GG to Sand Stall. Volcarona also can kill sun so easily while functioning in sun itself. It is most commonly seen in Sun but can also still be used in rain with Hurricane. Volcarona's SR weakness seems like too big of an issue, but the fact that most sun's team entire plan is to get SR Off the field makes Volcarona not struggle too much. Actually, it's biggest problem might be susceptibility to scarfers.
A-
Alakazam: An amazing safety blanket to offensive teams against opposing offensive teams. In a metagame where one needs to establish a superior offensive presence over the other offensive team, Alakazam flourishes as an offensive momentum disruptor. Alakazam does have some obvious flaws such as Pursuit weakness and it can't really do much outside of Sash but overall Alakazam is still good.
Breloom: Breloom was near S-Rank when it came out with technician imo. However, it really dropped because now, most teams easily have a check to it and it isn't too hard to deal with Breloom. Breloom does offer a ton of versatility and works really well on a lot of Hyper Offense teams. I personally don't see Breloom as a top tier threat anymore. However, Breloom is still really threatening.
Gengar:
Kyurem:
Mamoswine:
Salamence:
Skarmory:
Tentacruel
Venusaur:
I don't know how long I can keep this up. I'll edit this and finish it up with descriptions and reasonings soon.
Ojama
Banned deucer.
CBDragonite is currently better than DDNite and for obvious reasons. Landorus-T, ScarfKeldeo, ScarfJirachi, Scizor etc everywhere. It is also extremely hard to set up a Dragon Dance in such an offensive Metagame for Dragonite. The CB Set is immediately strong and doesn't need to set up a DD to become extremely threatening. In addition, as ginganinja said it, you can easily lead with and spam Outrage before switching out. It also has a strong priority move with the Choice Band and we all know how important are priority moves in the current Metagame. CBNite is definitely better than DDNite atm.
Don't answer that CBNite is also easily revenge killable with ScarfKeldeo etc since it often uses Outrage. Smart people run Dragon Claw on the CB Set (Outrage / DClaw / Espeed / Eq or Fire Punch).
Don't answer that CBNite is also easily revenge killable with ScarfKeldeo etc since it often uses Outrage. Smart people run Dragon Claw on the CB Set (Outrage / DClaw / Espeed / Eq or Fire Punch).
I actually agree with this statement. Subdivisions of ranks do seem unnecessary, determining a Pokemon's rank with this system will be tricky. Let's say a Pokemon is A- what keeps it from being borderline B+, same can be applied vice versa. Should simplicity not be a preferred way to group these ranks? After all the meta game shifts rather frequently and moving certain Pokemon from B+ to C- just to accommodate trends, preferences, and meta game shifts seems troublesome and perplexed.
D i a b l o
Guest
I think there should be a change in rank from Rank S to Rank A and vice-versa of these two Pokemon - Breloom and Terrakion - Terrakion because now this setup has less power due to Landorus-T because it does not allow with the ability "Intimidate" at Terrakion the sweep that in BW could afford and for this reason, imo, we use most SR's set, while Breloom, instead, can sleep a pokémon slower and play 5 vs 6 from the start and also can spam a lot of damage due both to Sword Dance + Match Punch + Techinchan that with Focus Punch, able to eliminate as quickly as its check / counter; then in the current metagame there are many pokémon with the same weaknesses able to do damage to each other.
Another thing I would change is Gyarados from rank B+ to rank A, this Pokemon can smash team integers with minimal support and also many teams current standard are weak in him but the most serious problem of Gyarados, however, are the Entry Hazard, but controlled by Tentacruel that under Rain becomes very difficult to kill.
From rank S to rank A
From rank A to rank S
From rank B+ to rank A
Another thing I would change is Gyarados from rank B+ to rank A, this Pokemon can smash team integers with minimal support and also many teams current standard are weak in him but the most serious problem of Gyarados, however, are the Entry Hazard, but controlled by Tentacruel that under Rain becomes very difficult to kill.
I think there should be a change in rank from Rank S to Rank A and vice-versa of these two Pokemon - Breloom and Terrakion - Terrakion because now this setup has less power due to Landorus-T because it does not allow with the ability "Intimidate" at Terrakion the sweep that in BW could afford and for this reason, imo, we use most SR's set, while Breloom, instead, can sleep a pokémon slower and play 5 vs 6 from the start and also can spam a lot of damage due both to Sword Dance + Match Punch + Techinchan that with Focus Punch, able to eliminate as quickly as its check / counter; then in the current metagame there are many pokémon with the same weaknesses able to do damage to each other.
Another thing I would change is Gyarados from rank B+ to rank A, this Pokemon can smash team integers with minimal support and also many teams current standard are weak in him but the most serious problem of Gyarados, however, are the Entry Hazard, but controlled by Tentacruel that under Rain becomes very difficult to kill.
From rank S to rank A
From rank A to rank S
From rank B+ to rank A
I'm the first person to advocate for Breloom (my new RMT is centered around a Focus Punch set) but I would never ever say he's S rank material. There are way too many Pokemon that counter Breloom. Try to find a team that doesn't have at least one of Lati@s, Celebi, Xatu, Dragonite, Salamence, Chandelure, Gengar, etc. That alone should mean he shouldn't be S-Rank. Honestly, he's lucky that he's even A rank. I'm honestly surprised no one has propose dropping him (though I would oppose it if someone did). But yeah keep Breloom A Rank.
Great list the unlucky one! Nothing is really out of place except I would move garchomp, hippowdon, and thundurus-therian down to A and move heatran and rotom(?) up. Heatran might not seem like A+ material, but he is more essential to sun teams than venusaur is. A sun team without heatran doesn't really work. Under sun he is a monster and with an air balloon under any other weather he is still scary as hell. Not to mention substitute heatran which is a monster for any team to face (including rain). Volcarona in normal A seems a bit high too. I disagree with the kyurem-b (surprise!) but it isn't ranked atrociously strange.
Breloom for S rank is too high, common offensive mons resisting his STAB and crappy typing just weigh him down a lot. Gyarados to A- is something I would agree to though because he can sort of handle landorus-i and keldeo, and smash sun teams. Terrakion for A is something I have wanted to discuss for a while and I fully support it in the end. Terrakion was the biggest threat in BW but he doesn't find himself quite as effective in BW2. His bulk was actually really impressive in BW for a pokemon with power of his caliber, but with rain everywhere a bulky rock type that can't trap latios is not bulky. The rise of scarf jirachi and genesect being replaced wit bullet punch scizor mean that the most common things in OU can kill him. Breloom is also consistently is at the top of the statistics and does not have any problems killing terrakion with mach punch. Politoed KOs with scald or hydro pump or scald, keldeo drowns with hydro pump. Terrakion has few good times to come in and his choice band set has no specific purpose- no doubt it hits crazy hard, but no team "needs" a CB terrakion for synergy reasons. He doesn't really handle sun teams who run dugtrio to trap him or venusaur can just giga drain. Rain teams drown him. He can set up on tyranitar?? Not really because tyranitar is good friends with landorus-t, scarf jirachi, and scizor. Terrakion is still stupidly powerful, but not good enough to be separated from the rest of the tier.
Breloom for S rank is too high, common offensive mons resisting his STAB and crappy typing just weigh him down a lot. Gyarados to A- is something I would agree to though because he can sort of handle landorus-i and keldeo, and smash sun teams. Terrakion for A is something I have wanted to discuss for a while and I fully support it in the end. Terrakion was the biggest threat in BW but he doesn't find himself quite as effective in BW2. His bulk was actually really impressive in BW for a pokemon with power of his caliber, but with rain everywhere a bulky rock type that can't trap latios is not bulky. The rise of scarf jirachi and genesect being replaced wit bullet punch scizor mean that the most common things in OU can kill him. Breloom is also consistently is at the top of the statistics and does not have any problems killing terrakion with mach punch. Politoed KOs with scald or hydro pump or scald, keldeo drowns with hydro pump. Terrakion has few good times to come in and his choice band set has no specific purpose- no doubt it hits crazy hard, but no team "needs" a CB terrakion for synergy reasons. He doesn't really handle sun teams who run dugtrio to trap him or venusaur can just giga drain. Rain teams drown him. He can set up on tyranitar?? Not really because tyranitar is good friends with landorus-t, scarf jirachi, and scizor. Terrakion is still stupidly powerful, but not good enough to be separated from the rest of the tier.
Yeah, I think I would support Terrakion being lowered to A rank. He's still a monster, able to 2HKO everything in the tier with his CB set, but there are other things that can boast that too. I think he's a strong, strong A rank Pokemon, but I feel like he's similar to Heracross in UU: everyone over-prepares for him, which makes him less effective than he should be on paper. Sort of like how Venusaur should be wrecking the whole metagame, but it doesn't because people always have some kind of counter/check to it. Most people have multiple ways of dealing with Terrakion, which lowers his usefulness ever-so-slightly.
Terrakion is really only countered by landorus-t and gliscor as well as some obscure pokemon like golurk and Nidoqueen. The main flaw that heracross had in UU was that its STAB attacks were easily resisted and everybody kept using CScross, which is inferior to the banded versions. Terrakion basically only needs 2 moves and the rest of his moveslots can be custumated to your desires. Furthermore, keldeo, another S-Rank mon has way more counters than terrakion. Even though keldeo resist priority moves, it is basically useless in the sun and pokemon like jellicent and celebi hard wall it. So as long as keldeo is S-rank, terrakion is S-rank.
ElectivireRocks
Banned deucer.
I agree that Terrakion should stay in S-rank.
To make a comparison, Keldeo's STABs are resisted by a ton of things (Gyarados, Starmie, Tentacruel, Toxicroak, Salamence, Dragonite, Lati@s, Celebi, Jellicent, Venusaur...) and its coverage moves (Hidden Power and Icy Wind) plain suck.
Terrakion's STABs not only have flawless coverage in OU (indeed, everything that resists rock+fighting other than Toxicroak is UU or lower) but its coverage moves are actually decent (Earthquake for Toxicroak and X-Scissors for things like Celebi and... Claydol? lol).
It also gets two great boosting moves (SD and RP) and can potentially run both of them on the same set.
With just 2 moveslots Terrakion can do more than any Keldeo's entire moveset.
In fact, I'm going to say that Keldeo should be dropped from S-rank because it's not in the same league as Terrakion.
To make a comparison, Keldeo's STABs are resisted by a ton of things (Gyarados, Starmie, Tentacruel, Toxicroak, Salamence, Dragonite, Lati@s, Celebi, Jellicent, Venusaur...) and its coverage moves (Hidden Power and Icy Wind) plain suck.
Terrakion's STABs not only have flawless coverage in OU (indeed, everything that resists rock+fighting other than Toxicroak is UU or lower) but its coverage moves are actually decent (Earthquake for Toxicroak and X-Scissors for things like Celebi and... Claydol? lol).
It also gets two great boosting moves (SD and RP) and can potentially run both of them on the same set.
With just 2 moveslots Terrakion can do more than any Keldeo's entire moveset.
In fact, I'm going to say that Keldeo should be dropped from S-rank because it's not in the same league as Terrakion.
Bandtar is the ultimate partner for Keldeo though. Notice how all of these checks (bar Croak) are dispateced by Crunch/Stone Edge. Croak resist Keldeo's STABs, and resists Tar's stabs. Adamant Croak can 2HKO Keldeo with Life Orb Drain punch, and OHKOs all Ttar with the same move.
Keldeo should stay S-Rank, but Croak is a very good counter to it, I'd say one of the 2 pokemon Keldeo can't beat at all (bar rare HP Psychic, which means ur walled by Celebi and Jellicent EVEN MORE).
TCTphantom
formerly MX42
Nominating Slowbro for B- rank. In all honesty, Slowbro is a fantastic wall.It can go toe to toe with every physical pokemon and Keldeo outside of rain. It also does not give up too much momentum, as its movepool can punish a switch in, such as Scizor, Dragonite, and others. It also has a semi immunity to hazards in Regenerator. Its pursuit weakness can be overshadowed by its massive bulk even. However, our derpy pal does have his issues, like his VoltTurn weakness and his slow nature...
Why inst Weavile D-Rank already? Scizor, Breloom, Skarmory, Forretress, Metagross, Keldeo, Conkeldurr, Jirachi and a few others have no problems countering/checking it while Weavile niche of revenge killing dragons is outpeformed by Mamoswine and its second niche of pursuit trapping is outpeformed by tyranitar and scizor. D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who have a small niche in the current OU metagame, but have very noticable flaws that make them more trouble then their worth the majority of the time. Sounds like Weavile to me. Also why is Hitmontop rank C and rank D at the same time?
On the terrakion/breloom tier swap suggestion:
ElectivireRocks brings up a great point:
ElectivireRocks brings up a great point:
While terrakion is walled by landorus-t, gliscor,etc, so is every pokemon. I feel that a second look should be taken at the definition of S-rank. Pokemon in the S rank can sweep/wall most of the metagame, and have many sets, increasing unpredictability and versatility. This defines terrakion, as well as keldeo, landorus, and politoed. But let's just focus on terrakion. Terrakion has the extremely popular choice scarf set, but also can use a choice band, as well as a swords dance, rock polish, or swords dance/ rock polish set, as stated above. This pokemon is obviously versatile, and the differences between the choiced sets and the double dancing set, can greatly increase unpredictability, because you can never be quite sure what these S-rank pokemon will do, even if you have a good idea. Another example is Landorus-I. He is usually seen as a sheer force set, but can also run a choice scarf or physically attacking set. Breloom can be dangerous but is too commonly walled by things such as Celebi, although it is very deserving of its A-rank. It's because of these reasons that I feel the S-rank is perfect as it is.
No offense, but this comment shows that you have clearly never used Weavile. It's been said before as to why Weavile is in B-rank:
And, to be frank, from what I've used of Weavile (which isn't a whole lot, I admit), this is pretty damn accurate.
Also, did you seriously just say "Well Mamoswine is better at revenging dragons, and Scizor/T-tar are better at using Pursuit"? That's like saying Rotom-W is a better Volt Switcher and Specs user and Alakazam is a better Fast special attacker than Jolteon. None of these Pokemon can do all of these things at once. Find me a Pokemon that can do everything Weavile can better than Weavile can. Not multiple Pokemon, one pokemon only. Exactly. There isn't one.
Weavile can do the job of trapping Psychics and Ghosts, revenge killing, and Dragon slaying all in one. While it faces some competition on those roles, it can do all three at once, something those guys can't do. Weavile has a clearly cut, defined offensive niche in OU, as it checks a large number of threats in the OU tier, such as Landorus, Celebi, Gengar, Starmie, Tornadus, Breloom, and a bunch of others. Weavile is so good at doing this, and it is unique in what it does; sure, Mamoswine, Scizor, and Tyranitar may be better users of certain moves, but they can't do what Weavile can. It doesn't fare badly against the average OU team, because it will be sure to always leave a mark. Weavile is checked by a some things, but that's not what Weavile lives by. It fills a defined niche, which makes it good for Low B-Rank.
EDIT: Ninja'd by LucaroarkZ.
Also Hitmontop is supposed to really be D-Rank; I think PK just forgot to remove it from C.
Anyways,
Regarding Terrakion, I think it should stay in S-Rank. It has the ability to sweep a large portion of the metagame with its power, speed and STAB's alone making it a force. It also has multiple offensive sets to boot, such as Scarf, Band, and Double Dance. Heck, SR set could be possible to use Terrakion as an offensive SR user. SubSDSalac is pretty awesome as well. I think it's still worthy of S-Rank.
Keldeo should stay in S because it's ridiculously powerful and works in both rain and sand, even though sun shits on it.
ElectivireRocks
Banned deucer.
Cresselia is C-rank because although she's really good in sun or even weatherless teams, she's utterly crippled by rain/sand/hail and she's always forced out by Tyranitar and Scizor.
Been said that, why can't I use the argument that Keldeo performs horribly against sun teams and it's forced out by a lot of things (see my previous post) to support that it really isn't S-rank material?
Anything worthy of S-rank should fit in any kind of team and should be able to sweep most teams with ease (if it's an offensive pokemon). This is simply not the case with Keldeo.
And Keldeo isn't any stronger in sand teams; it just happens to have good synergy with them the same way Heatran has good synergy with hail teams.
In fact, Keldeo in sand teams can't run its SubCM set, making it very easy to deal with.
Been said that, why can't I use the argument that Keldeo performs horribly against sun teams and it's forced out by a lot of things (see my previous post) to support that it really isn't S-rank material?
Anything worthy of S-rank should fit in any kind of team and should be able to sweep most teams with ease (if it's an offensive pokemon). This is simply not the case with Keldeo.
And Keldeo isn't any stronger in sand teams; it just happens to have good synergy with them the same way Heatran has good synergy with hail teams.
In fact, Keldeo in sand teams can't run its SubCM set, making it very easy to deal with.
Keldeo synergises incredibly well with Politoed and Tyranitar, so the fact that Sun screws it isn't that much of a factor (oh and how much Sun have you seen recently?). Not to mention it's most common use is alongside Tyranitar and Agility Lando, which basically laughs at 90% of Sun teams. Being S-rank has nothing to do with being successful in all possible conditions / teams. Would Tornadus-T fit in a Trick Room team? No? Well then. Obviously it wasn't banworthy. You see my point I hope.
I'll oppose it! Kyurem-B is a monster, it's true, but being weak to the two most common forms of priority (Mach Punch and Bullet Punch) as well as a weakness to Stealth Rock and susceptibility to Spikes really hurt it. To make matters worse, Kyurem-B is held back by his mediocre speed. Base 95 is pretty slow compared to other dragons. And it's not like he has a way to boost it like Dragonite and Haxorus. The final nail in the coffin is that his movepool is just awful. He's a great Pokemon, but it isn't S rank material. Too many faults all mixed together into one Pokemon.
Priority is irrelevant when Kyurem-B is behind a sub, which is his best set. If it comes in on a slower pokemon and gets a free sub, not much can be done to prevent a sweep. Best mixed attacking stats in the tier help it, meaning that its Ice Beam is still incredibly strong. A huge HP stat helps it with its subs, and the only pokemon that resists a set of Dragon Claw, Ice Beam and HP Fire is Heatran (but hey, its not meant to be sweeping all so pokemon). It doesn't care about any weather either, and its unfortunate hazard weakness can be mitigated with a spinner. It's sweeping potential combined with its versatility make it a clear S-Rank IMO.
It's mixed abilities are strong, that's true, but investing in HP, Attack, and Speial Attack, it's speed suffers even more. Also, you say that priority is irrelevant, but Scizor still beats it one on one unless it's packing HP Fire, which means he's loosing to something else because he's losing out on coverage. If you're running Ice Beam, Earth Power, and HP Fire with Sub, then you're better of running Kyurem, who has better Special Attack. All the non-sub sets are beaten by priority. I'm not saying Kyurem-B isn't fantastic, but S rank? I don't think so.
But if you look at the other S-Rankers, they lose to their counters as well. That's why they are counters. Keldeo in particular is countered by Jellicent, Celebi, Lati@s and Toxicroak. Landorus can't get past Celebi or Lati@s with ease. Terrakion is walled by Hippowdon, Gliscor and Landorus-T. Behind a sub, the only pokemon that can actually switch in on my listed set is Heatran. Terrakion and Keldeo fear the 2HKO on the switch in, which means they need to sac a pokemon to revenge it. And what if they predict wrongly and think its a Choice Band or Scarf set? Their Ferrothorn or Jirachi will fall to HP Fire or Earth Power, respectively. This is why Dugtrio makes a good partner, as it easily kill Heatran and Jirachi, two of Kyurem-B's best checks. IMO, no pokemon boast the sheer destructive power that it holds. It's ability to 6-0 teams is unparalleled, even without a good boosting move. This makes it just as good as any S-Rank pokemon IMO.
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