Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

[CTC]

I took a honko calc bro. And I don't understand how you are saying my calcs are bullshit when

Those are just calcs from everything honko considers ou that do over 30% (can kill in torrent range) and it certainly wasn't central to my argument.

What you still haven't addressed (amongst other things): what warrants giving feraligatr the support it needs to take down a standard team?

http://pastebin.com/J34qnnWH <<<ost final game 1
since someone like urself prolly wont be getting anywhere close to the later stages of any relevant tour, here's a log of gatr doing massive damage w/o the need of any support.

 

[victinivcreate1]

What support does Feraligatr need besides Stealth Rock and Rain? you act as if it is one of the most niche pokemon in the game that requires too much support to operate effectively. I don't know what you're asking me anymore but I guess I'm just going to have to repeat what I was saying. Feraligatr is a late game sweeper. It sets up and it cleans up weakened teams. It cleans up standard Rain Balance teams consisting of Jirachi/Donphan/Keldeo/Thundurus/Politoed/Filler etc. It sets up on so many things and can tank hits easily to get down to torrent range and sweep. As lavos said it can also easily clean up common sand after a swords dance as well. It gets many set up opportunities on bulky waters like slowbro and tentacruel. If you have any more questions, just ask.

The set-up on bulky waters argument is invalid, as Tenta can just use Toxic and Feralligator is screwed.

 

[Gary]

The set-up on bulky waters argument is invalid, as Tenta can just use Toxic and Feralligator is screwed.

Yeah because Tenta is the only bulky water-type in the tier -_-. Besides, not all Tenta's carry Toxic, a lot of them prefer to run T-Spikes. Feraligatr can still setup on a Tenta that carries Toxic anyway, and even with the residual damage, it could probably still nab 2-3 kills before going down. Toxic sucks, but not to the point where it's invalid to setup on them.

 

[Vemane]

http://pastebin.com/J34qnnWH <<<ost final game 1
since someone like urself prolly wont be getting anywhere close to the later stages of any relevant tour, here's a log of gatr doing massive damage w/o the need of any support.

Oh darn, ad hominem. How ever might I respond? D:

In terms of the battle, it really isn't all that indicative of the ladder. Feraligatr has great matchup against slow sand teams, which Destiny's team was. Since gatr happened to be running crunch, jelli couldn't handle it. Hell, his physical wall was weak to water. Celebi was the only thing that could handle it, and so it did.

As lavos mentioned earlier, gatr is great against sand once celebi is gone (but if you are eliminating celebi, why not just use keldeo as jelli can be taken out simultaneously?), but slower sand teams only make up, what, 10% of the ladder?

tl;dr: great plays, team matchup > gatr


--------------------

Tenta fairs quite well, toxic or not:

+2 252+ Atk Mystic Water Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Tentacruel in rain: 212-250 (58.24 - 68.68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after weather

After 3 turns of scalds, there is a fantastic chance one is a burn. Add in another if protect spam is factored.

 

[Sam]

Where are you getting 3 Scalds from? It's one max: Tenta comes in on the SD and then eats a Waterfall as it Scalds, or the player just SDs again for a guaranteed KO predicting a Protect. It's one max.

 

[Vemane]

Where are you getting 3 Scalds from? It's one max: Tenta comes in on the SD and then eats a Waterfall as it Scalds, or the player just SDs again for a guaranteed KO predicting a Protect. It's one max.

Because the discussion was concerning whether feraligatr could set up on tenta or not, which it can, but it's incredibly risky.

+2 252+ Atk Mystic Water Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Tentacruel in rain: 212-250 (58.24 - 68.68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after weather

Even if it does come in on sd, tenta scalds while gatr waterfalls, tenta is healed by rain dish. Tenta either protects or scalds again, either way as gatr waterfalls again and doesn't ko. Tenta can then protect/scald again, but with high damage rolls it will be in ko range for aqua jet if lacking protect.

That's 3

 

[Sam]

Because the discussion was concerning whether feraligatr could set up on tenta or not, which it can, but it's incredibly risky.

+2 252+ Atk Mystic Water Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Tentacruel in rain: 212-250 (58.24 - 68.68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after weather

Even if it does come in on sd, tenta scalds while gatr waterfalls, tenta is healed by rain dish. Tenta either protects or scalds again, either way as gatr waterfalls again and doesn't ko. Tenta can then protect/scald again, but with high damage rolls it will be in ko range for aqua jet if lacking protect.

That's 3

Or, like I said, Gatr can just SD again and OHKO Tentacruel which any smart player will do. That's 2 MAX, 1 if the Tenta user protects on the first turn (not unfathomable if it's already taken some damage).

 

[Vemane]

Or, like I said, Gatr can just SD again and OHKO Tentacruel which any smart player will do. That's 2 MAX, 1 if the Tenta user protects on the first turn (not unfathomable if it's already taken some damage).

I said 2, with a 3rd IF gatr and tenta come in at the same time.

So I don't really see what you are arguing. And prediction works both ways. Tenta can get another scald in on the turn that it should be protecting.

Not to mention the fact that gatr is neutered if ANY of the scalds burn.

 

[Sam]

You never said 2, you only said 3.

I don't really see the point you're trying to make at all. Tentacruel can sometimes win if Feraligatr stays in and sets up on it? If anything that's a pretty big boast to Feraligatr, being able to get past a 'counter' with no team support. That's pretty impressive. But team support is also a pretty big thing, and Tentacruel isn't the most difficult pokemon to switch in to.

 

[Vemane]

You never said 2, you only said 3.

I don't really see the point you're trying to make at all. Tentacruel can sometimes win if Feraligatr stays in and sets up on it? If anything that's a pretty big boast to Feraligatr, being able to get past a 'counter' with no team support. That's pretty impressive. But team support is also a pretty big thing, and Tentacruel isn't the most difficult pokemon to switch in to.

" Tenta can then protect/scald again, but with high damage rolls it will be in ko range for aqua jet if lacking protect."

But tenta isn't a counter, and isn't really what I'd be using to deal with feraligatr. (but subtoxic tenta beats gatr btw).

Complete reliance on a priority move for anything remotely fast is my beef with the gatr, not that it can't wall break

 

[Sam]

It's not complete reliance at all though. It also uses it's bulk to be able to take a hit and hit back hard. Late game there's really not much that's going to be able to break through it. It's tried and true in this role. Speed is an important stat, yes, but it's not the only thing that defines a pokemon (even an offensive one).

 

[Gary]

I find it hilarious that we're still arguing how effective Tentacruel is at crippling Gator. We get the point, Tentacruel can either fish for burns or attempt to stall it out with Toxic. But no, Tenta is not a reliable check or counter to Gator in the slightest, so you can't really rely on it. Let's move on please. This is getting ridiculously dry and relatively sad.

In other news, I'm very happy that Zam went up to A+ rank! The greatest revenge killer in OU deserves to be honored.

 

[MQJinx]

Yeah, this Tenta vs Gatr discussion is really taking away from other Pokemon (like my nomination of Smeargle for D-Rank for having Spore and being a good hazards setter and a SmashPasser that blocks phazing, and can bounce off hazards, paralyze, phaze, and sacrifice to soften blows, giving it a niche, but Ferrothorn usually outclasses it as a spiker aside from Spore, bouncing, sacrificing, and phazing, and the common sand doesn't help it). Let's leave it for PK to decide where Gatr goes.

 

[Gary]

Yeah, this Tenta vs Gatr discussion is really taking away from other Pokemon (like my nomination of Smeargle for D-Rank for having Spore and being a good hazards setter and a SmashPasser that blocks phazing, and can bounce off hazards, paralyze, phaze, and sacrifice to soften blows, giving it a niche, but Ferrothorn usually outclasses it as a spiker aside from Spore, bouncing, sacrificing, and phazing, and the common sand doesn't help it). Let's leave it for PK to decide where Gatr goes.

It's not really that, I just feel like this discussion about Gator is getting way too in depth and unnecessarily complicated. If someone wanted to argue against Gator's Rank, then they should do so with solid statements backed up by facts. The current arguments and accusations thrown at Gator are just downright ridiculous and absurd. For example, why does it matter so much that Tentacruel can sometimes get off three Scalds? Sure, Tent has a decent chance at burning it, but it's not guaranteed. It's almost sickening to me that we can't have an intelligent argument about the viability of a Pokemon, before some jackass decides to completely ignore what everyone else is saying, and goes off on a tangent about some nonsense that really has little to do with the argument itself. This is how it should look like:

Gator sucks, and here's why.

or

Gator is great and this metagame, and here's why.

Not, "Gator can't setup on bulky water-types because Tentacruel has a chance to burn it". Like seriously people? Can we use our brains?

 

[Lavos]

hey look another vemane vs the world situation

for once i think ctc made a good post

 

[vyomov]

Alakazam up from A- rank ==> A+ rank* (Alakazam rises to A+ rank and finally surpasses its old rival (Gengar))
Gengar up from A- rank==>A rank
Volcarona up from A- rank ==> A rank
Dragonite up from A- rank ==> A rank
Thundurus-T down from A rank ==> A- rank
Gyarados up from B+ rank ==> A- rank
Victini up from C rank ==> B- rank
Darmanitan up from C rank ==> B- rank
Infernape up from C rank ==> B- rank

Thanks for the updates!
What about Weavile? Was there any discussion re moving it up to B+?
Also, was there any discussion re the proposal made earlier(buried by vemane and namehtmas) of Roserade to C-rank?

Roserade for C-Rank
To qualify as a good sweeper, I believe that the following are certain qualities necessary in the current metagame:
a) High speed OR good priority: With Roserade, while 90 base speed isn't bad, most of OU outspeeds it and Roserade has no form of priority to beat mons that are naturally faster than it
b) Good coverage: While the grass type is good as coverage, poison just sucks as an offensive typing. And together combined, looking at the LARGE NUMBERS of Dragon and Steel types, Roserade can't offer this
c) High attacking stats: Roserade does qualify here: 125 SpA is quite high
d) Ability to tank a hit: Most sweepers can tank EITHER special OR physical hits if not both. Roserade can't do either in OU. With 60/55 for physical, anything neutral does MASSIVE damage. More importantly though, a lot of the special attackers in OU happen to be Psychic types like Latios, Starmie and Alakazam which makes things bad because even if 105 SpD is good, those mons will still OHKO.

Also, re Smeargle: Agree, that niche is good enough for D-Rank

Re Feraligatr: Seriously? I have NO clue why this thing is B-Rank. Are you trying to tell me that Feraligatr is more of a threat than Weavile? Or, even better, Infernape?. Feraligatr should be going straight to C-Rank, it's illogical to keep it in B-Rank.
Most Rain teams have one spot for Politoed, one for Ferrothorn, one for Keldeo. With two water-types already, it's not viable to have another water-type, which is why Feraligatr should be C-Rank: rain teams have no space to run it as of now(as they risk getting beaten by CM Raikou or other fast electric-types)

 

[Gary]

Oh man, that entire statement is utterly flawed. I'll hold myself back though, as I don't want to start another war.

 

[RabidChipmunk]

Most Rain teams have one spot for Politoed, one for Ferrothorn, one for Keldeo. With two water-types already, it's not viable to have another water-type, which is why Feraligatr should be C-Rank: rain teams have no space to run it as of now(as they risk getting beaten by CM Raikou or other fast electric-types)

Excuse me?

I've personally used Feraligatr a bit, and he's actually quite good, so long as you can bring him in safely and get up that Swords Dance (not difficult if you're careful). The neat thing about him is he can usually live one hit in order to smack the opposing Pokemon with a Waterfall, and then pick them off with Aqua Jet. And if the opposing team is weakened / consisting of frailer Pokemon, then Aqua Jet is usually all Feraligatr will need.

In short, he's not the best, but that's what B-Rank is for. Keep him there.

 

[vyomov]

Excuse me?

I've personally used Feraligatr a bit, and he's actually quite good, so long as you can bring him in safely and get up that Swords Dance (not difficult if you're careful). The neat thing about him is he can usually live one hit in order to smack the opposing Pokemon with a Waterfall, and then pick them off with Aqua Jet. And if the opposing team is weakened / consisting of frailer Pokemon, then Aqua Jet is usually all Feraligatr will need.

In short, he's not the best, but that's what B-Rank is for. Keep him there.

My point isn't that Feraligatr is bad. Relative to Feraligatr, both Weavile and Infernape are far more dangerous in today's metagame. So it makes no sense to have Feraligatr above both.
Let's face it, while 105 Attack isn't bad, 78 speed is. Compare to Weavile(who has an arguably better attacking type) who has 120 base attack and 125 speed. Now tell me why Feraligatr is B-Rank but Weavile is B-. It makes no sense, which is precisely why Weavile should be moved up to B+.

 

[Gokuzbu]

My point isn't that Feraligatr is bad. Relative to Feraligatr, both Weavile and Infernape are far more dangerous in today's metagame. So it makes no sense to have Feraligatr above both.
Let's face it, while 105 Attack isn't bad, 78 speed is. Compare to Weavile(who has an arguably better attacking type) who has 120 base attack and 125 speed. Now tell me why Feraligatr is B-Rank but Weavile is B-. It makes no sense, which is precisely why Weavile should be moved up to B+.

Weavile is weak to SR, weak to priority (bullet and mach punch), is frail as fuck, has lots of weaknesses plus a 4x to the most common type, has low bp moves and mediocre coverage

 

[Punchshroom]

We don't just compare stats when determining pokemon. Weavile may have better sweeper stats, but Feraligatr can make use of Rain, giving its Aqua Jet a healthy boost to make up for the lack of power. Feraligatr also has the bulk to actually setup a Swords Dance; Weavile can only setup Swords Dance on the switch, and opponents tend to hesitate to switch thanks to, ironically, Weavile's infamous Pursuits. Feraligatr sports good coverage moves such as Ice Punch, Earthquake, Crunch and Superpower to hit most Water resists hard; Weavile has LoL Kick, which doesn't hit the majority of Steels in OU hard enough. There's also the fact that Weavile is many times more vulnerable to priority than Feraligatr is.

 

[vyomov]

Mediocre Coverage

How so?Landing SE hits on Dragon, Flying, Grass, Ground, Psychic and Ghost types is mediocre, but Landing SE hits on Fire,Rock and Ground is better coverage?
Weavile has higher speed and has priority of it's own(Ice Shard) so slower priority users are still left in the dust.
Feraligatr has BAD speed and only decent attack, while Weavile has much better attack and speed.
With mons like Latios, Gengar and Alakazam fairly common, Weavile helps keep these mons in check.
Let's compare Weavile vs Feraligatr on a mon that takes neutral damage from both mon's most powerful(and viable, Hydro Cannon not counted) STAB: Eviolite Porygon2 (just for comparison) after a Swords Dance with 252 Atk Life Orb Adamant Nature on each:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 177-211 (47.32 - 56.41%) -- 81.25% chance to 2HKO


+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 183-216 (48.93 - 57.75%) -- 95.31% chance to 2HKO


That's right, Weavile does more damage(minimally) despite the higher base power of Waterfall.
Let's take a mon weak to both their STABs and see how they fare with 252 Atk Adamant Life Orb: Hippowdon
252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Hippowdon: 281-330 (66.9 - 78.57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Hippowdon: 283-338 (67.38 - 80.47%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Once again, Weavile consistently does more damage. So how exactly does Feraligatr claim to be better than Weavile? Weavile outspeeds and beats Dragon-types that rule the tier as of now. Can Feraligatr stake that claim?
Feraligatr needs support in the form of rain to sweep, whereas Weavile needs no support to sweep: a simple testament to the fact that Weavile is undisputedly better.

This is the 1850 usage of both:
Feraligatr: 0.38726% : 115'th in usage
Weavile: 2.59516%: 54'th in usage
I believe the 1850 stats show just how more viable Weavile is than Feraligatr(being used almost 7 times more) which is why Weavile for B-Rank

Edit at Punchshroom:
Firstly, the simple fact that Feraligatr needs rain to sweep while Weavile does not is indicative of the gap between the mons, which is why Weavile should be B+.
Secondly, while Weavile is weak to priority:
a) It has it's own form of priority meaning priority vs priority chances are Weavile is attacking first.
b) Opponents do not need priority to deal with Feraligatr: the majority of the tier outspeeds and OHKOes it anyways. Rain is a double-edged sword when it comes to sweeping: come sun and Feraligatr does horribly. The sheer fact that it relies on rain makes Feraligatr VERY unreliable.
Thirdly, Weavile can also run Brick Break if Low Kick doesn't hit hard enough so the argument is invalid.
Fourthly, in a meta filled with Dragons, Feraligatr's Ice Punch is useless because every dragon in OU outspeeds and can OHKO. On the other hand, Weavile outspeeds and can OHKO the exact same dragons, making Weavile a far bigger threat to deal with.
Honestly, any player in OU is more worried that Weavile can sweep his team as opposed to Feraligatr.
There's a reason Feraligatr's RU and Weavile is UU: it's because Weavile is simply more viable in the current meta.

 

[DarkBlazeR]

Relative to Feraligatr, both Weavile and Infernape are far more dangerous in today's metagame. So it makes no sense to have Feraligatr above both.

I didn't want to have to quote this statement, but given how totally wrong it is, I couldn't resist.

For those of you who think that Feraligatr requires a lot of support - all you need to do is weaken the opponent's Water resists and Feraligatr sweeps, simple as that. It's not particularly hard to do, considering that most of them still take huge damage from rain boosted Surfs and Hydro Pumps anyway. Chances are the people who have been saying that Feraligatr is too hard to use have not being using it correctly - it is strictly a lategame sweeper; rarely can it 6-0 an opponent after setting up during the first few turns, although even non-Torrent boosted Aqua Jet can still come in handy early on for checking things like Landorus/Volcarona/Terrakion etc. Getting into Torrent range is surprisingly easy because Feraligatr has enough bulk to survive most strong attacks without being OHKOd, even after Stealth Rock. We all know how dangerous Scizor and Breloom can be as SD+priority sweepers, so why not Feraligatr too, especially considering that Water has superior neutral coverage than both Steel and Fighting, but also has more power to boot after being boosted by rain + Torrent? I think B-rank is fine due to its flaws, but C-rank is really underestimating its potential.

 

[vyomov]

I think B-rank is fine due to its flaws, but C-rank is really underestimating its potential.

I'm not saying Feraligatr shouldn't be B-rank(let it stay there, it's not a bad mon as such). I'm simply using Gatr as evidence that Weavile should be B+ because it's a better sweeper. Feraligatr being B makes sense: in comparison, it's Weavile being B- that makes absolutely no sense.

 

[Lork]

How so?Landing SE hits on Dragon, Flying, Grass, Ground, Psychic and Ghost types is mediocre, but Landing SE hits on Fire,Rock and Ground is better coverage?
Weavile has higher speed and has priority of it's own(Ice Shard) so slower priority users are still left in the dust.
Feraligatr has BAD speed and only decent attack, while Weavile has much better attack and speed.
With mons like Latios, Gengar and Alakazam fairly common, Weavile helps keep these mons in check.
Let's compare Weavile vs Feraligatr on a mon that takes neutral damage from both mon's most powerful(and viable, Hydro Cannon not counted) STAB: Eviolite Porygon2 (just for comparison) after a Swords Dance with 252 Atk Life Orb Adamant Nature on each:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 177-211 (47.32 - 56.41%) -- 81.25% chance to 2HKO


+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 183-216 (48.93 - 57.75%) -- 95.31% chance to 2HKO


That's right, Weavile does more damage(minimally) despite the higher base power of Waterfall.
Let's take a mon weak to both their STABs and see how they fare with 252 Atk Adamant Life Orb: Hippowdon
252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Hippowdon: 281-330 (66.9 - 78.57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Hippowdon: 283-338 (67.38 - 80.47%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

a)weavile should never ever run a +attack nature
b)weavile never uses swords dance - or it loses that niche you like
c) feraligatr is exclusively used under rain

so what are you comparing? and i am a weavile fan!