I think you are really downplaying the significance of Porygon2's BoltBeam and offensive stats. Unlike Chansey, Porygon2 is not a massive piece of setup bait for the majority of the metagame. It can one shot some of the biggest offensive threats in the metagame with Ice Beam to prevent their setup with SR down (Dragonite Garchomp, Landorus-I, Thundurus-T). Thunderbolt deters free Keldeo switchins which does not happen in Chansey's case. Overall Porygon2 prevents so many offensive threats in becoming problems in the first place in addition to walling them, especially with the help of trace.
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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread
- Thread starter PK Gaming
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Here's a replay better showing porygon2's tanking abilities (same team)
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent-35370507
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent-35370507
Porygon2 is a pivot for balanced/offensive teams while keeping DECENT offensive momentum. I personally had trouble with it in a few matches. It is really hard to fit on a team though. It just hasn't really been explored and hasn't been truly defined as a Pokemon in the metagame to go up to A or even B-Rank. I will say that Porygon2 is 100% viable and good though.
(English is not my first language)
You are making some good point here. However, vaporeon hydration is actually outclassed by water absorb. For example, water absorb vaporeon is able to steal momentum by switching into a choice spec/scarf keldeo hydropump, healing itself, and wish support, and if it's a calm mind keldeo, it can simply roar/toxic him back.
Unfortunatly, I don't have many showdown video showing vaporeon strenght. But, if you actually spectate some of bluetta battle (One of the best vaporeon user I know), or Roman!X! (Not sure about his name), and Mr. Romanek, you might talk about vaporeon ability in a battle as a support pokemon more accuratly. ***Once again, sorry for my english, it's my second language.
I actually found a showdown replay, but it doesn't really show those players skill as they were way to many hax here and there (Two sleep powder on skarmory miss, and shadow ball crit on vaporeon), but he's the player I would like you guys to watch if he's still active. http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-32995734
Unlike most UU, it's actually not hard to fit in a team. This thread is based around viability, not usage. We agree that Porygon2 is very viable, like you say, which means it should be higher ranked in viability.
I wouldn't say that Porygon2 is easy to fit on teams...I mean, it could be the glue for teams that are weak to Gyara and Salamence, but other than that, I don't see what teams would think "well Porygon2 is the obvious choice for this slot." No one is arguing that Porygon2 does its job well, because it does. The issue is that it isn't really needed, since there are other Pokémon that do the same thing like Rotom-W. Yes the two are different, I'm just saying they both counter those two things. I think Porygon2 is fine where it is now. It has a niche, and it's good at that niche, but I don't think many teams really need that niche filled. At least, not enough for B ran and definitely not enough for A rank.
Dark Fallen Angel
FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!
I personally dislike Porygon2 and disagree for it being more than B- Rank, if it even deserves that rank. For starters, yes, Porygon2 has acess to BoltBeam coverage, but Porygon2 struggles to damage anything that is not weak to either Ice Beam or Thunderbolt, and the list of Pokémon that fit this category is surprisingly large, and many of them do not even mind Toxic, Thunder Wave, or both. Ferrothorn, Scizor, Tyranitar, Heatran (however if Porygon2 is able to switch on Heatran, the latter cannot do much to the former due to Flash Fire being traced), Jirachi, Terrakion, and Kyurem-B, and they are not all the examples, just some of the most relevant. In fact, most of those Pokémon can use Porygon2 as setup bait, for example, you can simply switch Ferrothorn and then use Leech Seed, or use the opportunity to setup Stealth Rock or Spikes. Because none of Porygon2' moves can do decent damage or cripple Ferrothorn, it is setup bait for the metal jackfruit.
Porygon2 is very bulky, but it simply cannot wall many Specs/Band users, and will fall to most setup sweepers once they have setup-ed, especially as it has no resistances to begin with. Also, because it has to use Eviotile, it is vulnerable to passive damage, just like Chansey, a Pokémon that you were comparing to Porygon2.
Porygon2's role isn't countering gyarados and salamence, while I suppose someone looking to do just this would have a great time with porygon2. Nobody thinks 'well Porygon2 is the obvious choice for this slot.' because of its low usage – people haven't tried it and don't understand its capabilities. Porygon's true capabilities lie in its tanking. He's something to switch to, and when switched to isn't helpless like other defensive pokemon. Maybe check out the damage calculations above or the replays I posted to better understand this.
Actually many of the pokemon you listed can be taken out by porygon2.
Scizors are usually banded, and the move of choice is always superpower.
252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 236-278 (63.1 - 74.33%)
It's really easy to predict and Porygon2 can just recover to lower scizor's attack since it is slower than scizor. It can then just kill it with thunderbolt. I have used this strategy many times. Porygon2 should switch out for a swords dance Scizor, however.
Tyranitar is taken out by toxic. Superpower is again, very predictable.
Porygon2 would usually switch out against a Jirachi, however, it is possible for Porygon2 to stay in against physical Jirachis and try to paralyze Jirachi with a serene grace boosted discharge, with many opportunities thanks to Porygon2's bulk. Calm Mind Jirachi's are only 17% of Jirachis but still, Porygon2 can't do much against them, especially if they are behind subs.
Kyurem-B is toxic stalled
252 Atk Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 132-156 (35.29 - 41.71%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Some choice spec and band users are a threat to porygon2, but not as many as you might think.
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 72 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 144-169 (38.5 - 45.18%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 72 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 220-261 (58.82 - 69.78%)
-2 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 72 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 111-132 (29.67 - 35.29%) (cannot be 2hkod)
Ferrothorn being able to get a free hazard in on porygon2 isn't reason to not raise it to B. Bronzong has the same issue.
I feel like you're only looking at the Pokemon that can check it and not all of the pokemon that it can check. But I would say the checks for Porygon2 would constitute a B rank instead of an A rank. Many of the other B rank pokemon have flaws, pointing these out isn't much of a reason to exclude it from B.
Other Examples of What Can Happen If You Don't Always Know What Your Opponents Move Will Be
Scizor U-turns, you just recovered. Alternatively, it's Swords Dance, and you just recovered pointlessly. So you're saying you should always switch out against an unknown Scizor, which loses momentum and forces something else to take the U-turn.
Tyranitar sets up Stealth Rock, while you Toxic it. In most games, that's a win for the Tar user. Alternatively it could use CB Superpower while you Toxic, and you're forced out at low health and are probably death fodder now.
Any Sub Jirachi wins every time. SR Jirachi or even Wish Rachi get their money's worth risking a 30% paralysis (if you're switching into them, they're not staying in, they've done their job already).
Kyurem 2HKO's with CB Outrage, while you use Toxic. Alternatively, it uses Substitute which you can't scratch.
There are all kinds of other examples, e.g. Sub Terrakion in sandstorm, Ferrothorn, other hazard layers like Roserade or SpDef Forretress etc.
Basically, while Pory2 is great at countering pure, hit-until-it's-dead offense, against anything else it's just set-up fodder. Shouldn't be moved imo, or if so only up one increment.
Scizor U-turns, you just recovered. Alternatively, it's Swords Dance, and you just recovered pointlessly. So you're saying you should always switch out against an unknown Scizor, which loses momentum and forces something else to take the U-turn.
Tyranitar sets up Stealth Rock, while you Toxic it. In most games, that's a win for the Tar user. Alternatively it could use CB Superpower while you Toxic, and you're forced out at low health and are probably death fodder now.
Any Sub Jirachi wins every time. SR Jirachi or even Wish Rachi get their money's worth risking a 30% paralysis (if you're switching into them, they're not staying in, they've done their job already).
Kyurem 2HKO's with CB Outrage, while you use Toxic. Alternatively, it uses Substitute which you can't scratch.
There are all kinds of other examples, e.g. Sub Terrakion in sandstorm, Ferrothorn, other hazard layers like Roserade or SpDef Forretress etc.
Basically, while Pory2 is great at countering pure, hit-until-it's-dead offense, against anything else it's just set-up fodder. Shouldn't be moved imo, or if so only up one increment.
porygon2 should stay in C rank. It's a good Eviolite user and a pain to take down if its running the defensive duck set, but imo it's outclassed by reuniclus. The latter has access to calm mind and focus blast and doesn't give a fuck about toxic and entry hazards(both which fuck porygon2 up.)
porygon2 is also completely walled by Ferrothorn, who can set up on it all day and takes pathetic damage from Thunderbolt and Ice Beam. it also can't do crap to Tyranitar if it doesn't pack toxic, and choice band superpower is a clean 2HKO. kyurem-b can just set up a substitute and laugh at it.
^porygon2 absolutely needs recover, else it ends up being a special variant of swampert(bulky attacker with no access to recovery), and it has no moveslot for HP Fire.
porygon2 is also completely walled by Ferrothorn, who can set up on it all day and takes pathetic damage from Thunderbolt and Ice Beam. it also can't do crap to Tyranitar if it doesn't pack toxic, and choice band superpower is a clean 2HKO. kyurem-b can just set up a substitute and laugh at it.
^porygon2 absolutely needs recover, else it ends up being a special variant of swampert(bulky attacker with no access to recovery), and it has no moveslot for HP Fire.
I was responding to a post praising Hydration Vaporeon.
I would agree that Vaporeon's best use is on NON rain teams using Water Absorb-- either as a Wish passer or as an Offensive tank.
Vaporeon's also good on baton pass.
The Hydration Wall set is pretty bad though. Especially since Celebi is literally everywhere.
In my opinion, Vaporeon is one of those pretty weak pokémon which can wall some teams totally. I mean, most of the OU sweepers can deal with it, but imagine if you face a Hydration Vaporeon using a RainStall team. Now Vaporeon will seem unbeatable
And I don't think Celebi is a way to justify the fact Vaporeon is not used.
43,07% - 50,5%
This is the damage an offensive Vaporeon can deal to max/max+ Celebi
So I think that Vaporeon isn't considered strong just because it's not always used in the right way
And I don't think Celebi is a way to justify the fact Vaporeon is not used.
43,07% - 50,5%
This is the damage an offensive Vaporeon can deal to max/max+ Celebi
So I think that Vaporeon isn't considered strong just because it's not always used in the right way
I think Vaporeon's best set is the Hydration Work Up set, and is the reason why I believe it can be justified in B- rank. It's actually really effective; sadly almost no one uses it. It can pull off some pretty epic sweeps late game once things like Breloom and Thundurus-T have been removed, absolutely demolishes stall lacking Perish Song Celebi/Politoed, and can even be a team supporter by using Baton Pass to give accumulated boosts to something far more dangerous. The problem is that it can be very hard to fit onto a team since it offers less defensive synergy than the other bulky Waters on offer, and exacerbates existing weaknesses on rain teams, but it can really pull its weight if used correctly.
BurningMan
fueled by beer
Celebie just uses Perish Song and forces it out while Vaporeon can't do anything in return and almost every Celebie uses perish Song because it is so useful in stopping Baton Pass or long term set-up sweepers like Latias.
@Erico
Porygon2 is fine where it is. I don't know if it's because I'm not seeing what you want me to, but all I got out of those replays is that it can spam Toxic and Ice Beam then PP Stall using Recover. I can do that with Chansey or Blissey if I wanted to, even some Bulky waters can. If you want to say something about Porygon2, I'd focus on using Trace + Download arguments, I mean really the only reason to use it is Eviolite + Trace because Porygon-Z is a better download user. Normal typing isn't helping it either, almost every single team is running a fighting type (Keldeo) and no Ghost types to take advantage of. Trick Room Set-up and a Glue/Defensive Pivot with Eviolite and Trace is about all it can do that isn't outclassed by something else, which means it only has a certain niche, which makes it C-Rank material. It's in the same boat as Mew, where it can do many different things, but only about one of those things is useful.
Porygon2 is fine where it is. I don't know if it's because I'm not seeing what you want me to, but all I got out of those replays is that it can spam Toxic and Ice Beam then PP Stall using Recover. I can do that with Chansey or Blissey if I wanted to, even some Bulky waters can. If you want to say something about Porygon2, I'd focus on using Trace + Download arguments, I mean really the only reason to use it is Eviolite + Trace because Porygon-Z is a better download user. Normal typing isn't helping it either, almost every single team is running a fighting type (Keldeo) and no Ghost types to take advantage of. Trick Room Set-up and a Glue/Defensive Pivot with Eviolite and Trace is about all it can do that isn't outclassed by something else, which means it only has a certain niche, which makes it C-Rank material. It's in the same boat as Mew, where it can do many different things, but only about one of those things is useful.
Reuniclus doesn't really compare to Porygon2. I think you're undermining Porygon2's defensive capabilities. Porygon2 can boast about being able to take +1 Life Orb Haxorus's outrage. Most often it is used as a pivot. It can take out Tyranitars with little issue, since superpower is so obvious and porygon2 can just recover off damage until Tyranitar's attack has dropped. Toxic is a pretty essential move for the defensive duck, I feel it's foolish not to run it unless if its role on the team is different than usual. The Pokemon that can take out Porygon2 from just sheer force run a short list. Ferrothorn and Kyurem-B with a substitute do force a switch out, though mind that Kyurem-B with a sub covers only 23% of them.
Lol people dissing porygon2. Porygon2 is one of the hardest pokemon to kill in the game. Excellent bulk (its only 3hKOed by keldeo secret sword and can just recover all the damage) great sp atk, bolt beam coverage, trace to fuck up landorus-t, gyarados, heatran, dugtrio and friends and copy shit like multiscale, regenerator etc. It can even setup trick room and gravity for such teams. Definitely B-Rank. The utility it brings to the table is unrivaled.
Porygon2 suffers from lack of any useful resistances (something that any wall/pivot not called Chansey/Blissey needs), extreme vulnerability to passive damage (the only Pokemon that is usually seen in OU and carries Eviolite is Chansey, and this is because of it's insane mixed defences), and lack of power. And yeah, i say lack of power as unSTABed BoltBeam coverage means nothing in a metagame where even weak special walls such as Jellicent and Tentacruel hit almost as hard with Scald against neutral targets as Porygon2 does against 2x superf effective targets. And there is also the deal of how weak its attacks are against targets neutral to its coverage moves and Steel-types. Finally, the support that Porygon2 brings to the table is nothing to write home about, with dedicated Gravity and Trick Room teams being nothing more than gimmicks, meaning that it is outclassed in the department of support moves (entry hazards, Wish, Aromatherapy/Heal Bell, Baton Pass / Volt Switch / U-turn, burns, and phazing/pseudo-hazing are all support moves that are much more needed for the OU metagame than the support moves that Porygon2 has, namely Trick Room, Gravity, Toxic, and Thunder Wave). Porygon2 is fine in C Rank.
When you can avoid the 2hko from moves like landorus-t life orb quake, keldeo secret sword (which is super effective), scarf salamence outrage, band garchomp outrage, +1 rain boosted waterfall from gyarados etc. with just sheer bulk you know youre fine. Porygon2 doesnt need resistances to take on top threats in the metagame, he would definitely be better if it did but it still does very well without them which is the main reason he shouldnt be any higher than B-Rank. Also who cares if its attacks are weak against neutral targets? This thing job is tank hits, status you (toxic and discharge) and restore health. His boltbeam attacks are only used against the stuff that are hit super effectivelly and it hits pretty hard. While i do agree that trick room and gravity are quite gimmick that does not mean they are not effective. With threats like sheer force conkeldurr and reuniclus to abuse trick room and landorus (both forms), nidoking, starmie and essentially anything that learns a bunch of powerful innacurate moves to abuse gravity they can hold their own in this metagame.
I know that Porygon2 can take extreme amounts of punishment, but when rain-boosted attacks or strong attacks in sand 2HKO it after SR, this doesn't mean much. Scarf Keldeo in rain almost always 2HKOs with Hydro Pump even 252/252 Porygon2 after SR, Modest Landorus OHKOes 252/0 Porygon2 after SR with Focus Blast around half of the time with FB's accuracy factored in, and other threatening offensive Pokemon such as Terrakion, Breloom, and SubCM Jirachi, all make Porygon2 run for its life. Porygon2 just loses against too many good offensive Pokemon in the metagame to be considered a good wall, while providing little support, and being extremely vulnerable to residual damage.
To see what i mean about residual damage, CB Tyranitar 2HKOes with Stone Edge 252/252+ Porygon2 50% of the time after SR and sand, while Superpower always 2HKOes. Scarf Landorus 2HKOes the same Porygon2 with EQ after one U-turn + SR + sand, which is the move that Landorus spams the most in the early game. Stoutland always 2HKOes with Superpower. And all those while most defensive Pokemon can easily switch into Porygon2 and effectively support their team, while all Porygon2 does is waste a few turns.
Finally, you say that its job is to take hits, status you, and recover. I agree, and this is why it's not effective. Too many Pokemon can switch into its attacks and status and take advantage of it, often making it a liability against the teammates of the Pokemon it is supposed to wall. It doesn't matter if it can counter Dragonite and Salamence if it can do litlte as the opponent's Steel-types come in. This is why its lack of good support moves really hurts its viability, as it doesn't have anything useful to do with all the free turns it gets.
I don't think Trick Room should be used in any argument when trying to bump something up a rank. It's not really a gimmicky strategy, but it's just not that great of a supporting argument. Now, I have to agree Porygon 2 is indeed extremely bulky and has that boltbeam coverage to abuse, and it works great in conjunction with Download or Trace. Sadly, the pros stop about there. In my eyes, Porygon 2 is a more offensive Blissey with the ability to wall physical threats, but without the amazing cleric support that Blissey/Chansey bring. Like alexwolf said, it's lack of useful resistances damper its ability to wall as effective as something like Skarmory, Gliscor, or Heatran, and even with Eviolite and Recover, you can't really depend on its bulk all the time. Although Porygon 2 is probably one of the bulkiest mixed walls in the game, I don't feel that being able to wall stuff should bump it up a rank. If it provided more team support like Blissey, then I feel like B- would fit. Sadly, it just walls and spams either Ice Beam / Discharge or Toxic. C-Rank seems fitting. I don't see why some of you want this thing B- so badly.
252+ Atk Life Orb Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 140-165 (37.43 - 44.11%) -- 1.56% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Expert Belt Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 182-218 (48.66 - 58.28%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 166-196 (44.38 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (I used +1 because more often than not Salamence is going to be at +1 or higher with a pivot switching in, you're arguing he's a pivot anyways)
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Eviolite Porygon2 in rain: 224-265 (59.89 - 70.85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
There's all your claims, and the only relevant one I'll give you is the Landy-T one and maybe the Salamence one. All the sets are standard, so don't argue it. I figure I should throw in some more relevant threats also:
252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 236-278 (63.1 - 74.33%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Superpower vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 240-284 (64.17 - 75.93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 72 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 263-309 (70.32 - 82.62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 320-378 (85.56 - 101.06%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 72 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 239-283 (63.9 - 75.66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Low Sweep vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 211-250 (56.41 - 66.84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 214-253 (57.21 - 67.64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Yache Berry variants beat you and SD up, non Yache I'll give to you, CB has around 96% chance to 2HKO after SR)
252+ Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 216-255 (57.75 - 68.18%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 72 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 191-226 (51.06 - 60.42%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I think that's enough.
If you notice, almost all of these common offensive threats can either set-up on you or plain out attack you and you're a sitting duck (bad pun). Porygon2 is slower than almost all of OU, which OU loves taking advantage of. So many things can simply just set up on it and then blow straight through your team because you're too busy Toxicing or using Recover because you don't have Leftovers to neutralize passive damage. He's too busy trying to Toxic sweepers that are faster and 2HKO you. Sure, he's good at checking locked-in threats and spreading Toxic, but so are Tentacruel, Jellicent, the Pink Blobs, and Politoed. If he had a better support movepool he'd be better, but passive damage sucks and he's too slow to actually abuse Recover. C-Rank without a doubt.
I really think Porygon2 should stay where it is. It's getting late so I'll finish type a post tomorrow.
Dark Fallen Angel
FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!
This is because there are many Pokémon that are not hit super-effectively by either of those moves, and do not care for Toxic, Thunder Wave/Discharge, or even both. Here are some examples: Ferrothorn (do not care about either Thunder Wave or Toxic), Scizor (fears paralysis only to some extent), Gastrodon (fears Toxic but do not care about Thunder Wave), Tyranitar (same as Scizor) and Jirachi (most variants are crippled by paralysis but none of them fear Toxic).
To the guy that said HP Fire on the previous page, it is a good move to hit Ferrothorn and Scizor, but none of Porygon2's standard moves are negotiable. Porygon2 really needs a status move, BoltBeam coverage, and Recover to function. Not to mention HP Fire is hindered by rain.
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