Don't forget that the specially defensive variant can check Tornadus quite nicely, which is one of its biggest niches in OU as of now.
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BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Tobes
- Start date
Don't forget that the specially defensive variant can check Tornadus quite nicely, which is one of its biggest niches in OU as of now.
I don't remember seeing this a lot in this metagame.
Actually, looking at normal and 1850 stats, he wasn't used much at all to combat Landorus-I.
If there's one thing I can be certain, it's that Cresselia is going to drop HARD in 1850+. She was basically the only true Landorus-I counter, and her position at 58 (ish) is mainly because of her ability to wall and 2HKO Landorus-I. Now that Lando-I is gone, she goes back to being a niche thing.
Ehhh she's still a really good sun Pokémon, since she can easily handle things like Garchomp and cripple things with T-wave, set up screens, Toxic stall, etc. Plus with 66% recovery in one turn, she's pretty tough to take down. Will she drop in usage? Of course. But I think sun will rise, which means she probably won't drop as much as you might think.
Salamence should now rise in usage. Why? Because, unlike Landorus, Landorus-T is slower than Salamence and hence promptly dealt with by HP Ice. Likewise, Jirachi will also rise in usage because it can now flinchhax Landorus-T being faster.
One of the key annoying things about Landorus was that 101 speed that was JUST faster than all those base 100s. With Landorus-T, that really isn't an issue.
PS, why will Haxorus randomly rise? I don't think anyone was actually using Landorus as a check to Haxorus...
One of the key annoying things about Landorus was that 101 speed that was JUST faster than all those base 100s. With Landorus-T, that really isn't an issue.
PS, why will Haxorus randomly rise? I don't think anyone was actually using Landorus as a check to Haxorus...
Uh... this is a really stupid thing to do unless your don't need your Jirachi at all at that point in the battle. Even against the most frail Landorus-T with 252 Atk Jirachi, at best its a 4HKO, you are only landing 3 flinches 22% of the time and in return will be flat out 1HKOed by Earthquake. While Iron Head is looking to be a 7-9HKO on Landorus, at the least Landorus is doing 85% to defensive Jirachis.
Overall, attempting to flinch hax a Pokemon which can 1HKO you is a stupid idea unless you really need to roll the dice.
MCBarrett
i love it when you call me big hoppa
I think Garchomp might rise a bit due to its similar speed tier and Ground STAB. It could be a decent Sand Force Landorus replacement, especially with a scarfed set. Plus it doesn't have to worry about RP Landorus sets that could easily destroy it with HP ice.
I don't see Salamence rising really. (Also what fucking Salamence runs HP Ice)
Salamence has a number of issues in the metagame atm, as it struggles to handle a meta full of Hippowdon / Skarm / Jellicent / Scizor / Landorus-T / Scarfers etc. Sure, a Mix Set is prolly still viable but then you lose out vs offence, Scarf set is still vulnerable to standard steels (and Landorus-T), and DD has a host of other problems (setting up easily, avoiding the revenge kill, and actually achieving the snowball sweep are the big ones). There is ust so much that shuts it down atm that it really struggles in this meta, especially with the SR weakness, and especially considering Dragonite gives it a fair amount of competition. This isn't to say that Salamence is a bad pokemon, but that the meta just isn't kind to it atm.
If anything would rise id prolly look at Sun / Heatran / Croak bring "winners" or a sort since giving Landorus-T a free turn opportunity isn't quite as bad as it was giving Landorus-I a free turn. Hard to point out any real winners tho since you still have a "Landorus" in OU hitting all the ground weaks just as hard.
The only Pokemon I really see rising are Pokemon that can deal with Keldeo but couldn't deal with Landorus (and Keldeo). Toxicroak, Latias, Jellicent, Tentecruel, and Dragon types like Salamence (not because of Vyomov's reason), and Dragonite. They can all switch into Keldeo moderately well, I guess it all depends on what HP Keldeo is running and what item.
Other than that, I can see stall rising in usage (even though it's still hard pressed by Keldeo and Kyurem-B), and Sun teams will have a big more breathing room (since a well played Landorus-I would nearly always win against a Sun team), meaning they will probably increase in usage (also Pokemon in the Sun have a much easier team with Keldeo for obvious reasons).
Other than that, I can see stall rising in usage (even though it's still hard pressed by Keldeo and Kyurem-B), and Sun teams will have a big more breathing room (since a well played Landorus-I would nearly always win against a Sun team), meaning they will probably increase in usage (also Pokemon in the Sun have a much easier team with Keldeo for obvious reasons).
I think the biggest change we will see is not necessarily an influx of usage of certain Pokemon, but just a downturn in Landorus-I's primary counters. As ginganinja said, Earth Power from Lando-I destroyed pretty much every Grounded Pokemon. I suspect that Celebi usage will go down slightly. It still retains an important in checking high powered rain water attacks, Keldeo, and Breloom but now it isn't holding every non-offensive team in the tier together. I can see Mamoswine and Scizor decreasing slightly as well because of the importance of their priority in helping check Landorus-I for most teams.
I honestly hope Keldeo gets banned, even though it makes a wonderful partner for some of my Dark Horse teams.
With Landorus-I's ban I might have to rework a few of my teams. That's no problem, though, as OU continues to flourish as a metagame resembling "decent" by taking care of suspects such as it.
Honestly, I really hope Keldeo doesn't get banned. With Landorus out of the way, I have found that teams are really much less pressured as they were before. Unlike Landorus, Keldeo doesn't have the ultra destruction move that is Sheer Force+ Life Orb Earth Power. Surf under the rain comes close to the candle, but at least that power can be removed from the game with opposing weather on your side. In addition, Keldeo has to chose between its checks and counters with its Hidden Power, whereas Landorus-I could steamroll through all of them with just the addition of U-turn. The most important thing about Keldeo I have found is that most Pokemon can tank one of its STAB's if its coming from the Scarf set and retaliate back with a KO. Meanwhile, you had no chance of facing down an EP or Focus Blast from Landorus-I with SR + Sand in play.
Uhhh.... big "winner" of Lando-I ban?
I think Landorus-T is the biggest winner of this ban. First off, Landorus-I was obvious competition for it getting onto teams. Sure their roles are different, but you'll often be thinking of adding something that hits hard, and has the same mix of resistances. It's natural that the two would to some degree, compete with each other for the team slot. Plus, Landorus-I is itself a very good check for Landorus-T. It walks into EQ like nothing, can take Stone Edge alright from defensive Lando-T, and obviously outspeeds and OHKO's with HP Ice. Lando-T wants to be a go-to check for Pokemon throwing around Ground and Fighting attacks, but is no check at all obviously for Lando-I.
Gliscor is in a similar situation too.
I think Landorus-T is the biggest winner of this ban. First off, Landorus-I was obvious competition for it getting onto teams. Sure their roles are different, but you'll often be thinking of adding something that hits hard, and has the same mix of resistances. It's natural that the two would to some degree, compete with each other for the team slot. Plus, Landorus-I is itself a very good check for Landorus-T. It walks into EQ like nothing, can take Stone Edge alright from defensive Lando-T, and obviously outspeeds and OHKO's with HP Ice. Lando-T wants to be a go-to check for Pokemon throwing around Ground and Fighting attacks, but is no check at all obviously for Lando-I.
Gliscor is in a similar situation too.
Yea you hit the nail on the head here. Specs Hydro Pump under rain from a Keldeo obv hits like a girl xD.
In all seriousness, I think you are underrating Keldeo's power. True, Scarf its its most common set, and that lowers its attacking output, however under rain its effectively getting a 1.5x boost on its main STAB while obv getting the 1.5x boost to its speed holding a choice scarf. That already puts it head and shoulders power wise above most of OU. Expert Belt drops the speed advantage for greater usability of Hidden Power, with Dark and Bug being the more common options, although HP Psychic imo isn't bad for hitting Croaker / Cruel / various poison types etc. Icy Wind + HP Bug cripples its more common counters in Latias and Celebi encouraging players to look at other options such as Amoonguss since otherwise Keldeo is cleaning house. Its Specs set, while uncommon, is an utter bitch to switch into since, from personal experience, it just nukes everything.
Yea, you can change the weather and that lowers its damage output a bit, but no weather starter really likes switching into Keldeo in the first place (are you really sending in Tyranitar / Hippowdon on Keldeo?) so I dislike that being brought up.
Don't get me wrong, im not in any way arguing that Keldeo is uncounterable or impossible to handle, but on a practical level, you are very much underestimating the power of a Hydro Pump under rain (from 129 SpA), let alone one that's boosted by items such as Choice Specs, especially considering Water being one of the best offensive typings in the game.
People make keldeo seem better than it is.
Choiced sets are easy to wall, Ebelt set lacks the speed and power to get thru things. You realise when trying to sweep with Ebelt keldeo just how small its movepool is, as you will always be hardwalled by at least 2 or 3 pokemon that are COMMON on all teams simply because you need something to tank Hydros, and those things that do just happen to wall keldeo pretty well.
For those claiming specs hydro hits hard, try analytic starmie then get back to me. More power, faster, better movepool, arguably better typing for sweeping. All starmie lacks over keldeo in that regard is bulk.
After lando-i was banned, everything that walled keldeo because more viable since they don't have to handle 2 things, or give it free turns (like in the case of 'croak with no ice punch). What pushed lando-i over the top was e-z button U-turn out to keep momentum while still being threatening as fuck.
Lets just get this test out of the way so we can get on with the real offenders.
I think people will find that keldeo is far easier to combat that Lando-I.
You have to remember that the big reason for running HP bug keldeo was to get celebi out of the way FOR lando-i to sweep, not necessarily for keldeo to sweep. HP bug keldeo is pretty darn easy to wall, and Icy wind really hits like a feather.
Remember if you are going to argue about keldeo rain boosted hydros, we arent including ttar in the mix. This means that pokes like jellicent, slowking (meh why not), Lati@s, starmie, etc all have a much easier time switching in; they need not fear an impossible to break pursuit trap.
People will start running Toed+Keldeo+Scizor quite frequently I'm sure, but scizor's not completely immune to prediction like ttar was.
Random nitpick, ghost > dark simply because it hits croak, and won't give out justified boosts.
Choiced sets are easy to wall, Ebelt set lacks the speed and power to get thru things. You realise when trying to sweep with Ebelt keldeo just how small its movepool is, as you will always be hardwalled by at least 2 or 3 pokemon that are COMMON on all teams simply because you need something to tank Hydros, and those things that do just happen to wall keldeo pretty well.
For those claiming specs hydro hits hard, try analytic starmie then get back to me. More power, faster, better movepool, arguably better typing for sweeping. All starmie lacks over keldeo in that regard is bulk.
After lando-i was banned, everything that walled keldeo because more viable since they don't have to handle 2 things, or give it free turns (like in the case of 'croak with no ice punch). What pushed lando-i over the top was e-z button U-turn out to keep momentum while still being threatening as fuck.
Lets just get this test out of the way so we can get on with the real offenders.
Same thing could be said about terrakions CC when banded. Much of the same thing, given how much less prevalent physical walls are. Gliscor, Slowbro and Lando-T are the only pokes that can really switch into CC with impunity.
I think people will find that keldeo is far easier to combat that Lando-I.
You have to remember that the big reason for running HP bug keldeo was to get celebi out of the way FOR lando-i to sweep, not necessarily for keldeo to sweep. HP bug keldeo is pretty darn easy to wall, and Icy wind really hits like a feather.
Remember if you are going to argue about keldeo rain boosted hydros, we arent including ttar in the mix. This means that pokes like jellicent, slowking (meh why not), Lati@s, starmie, etc all have a much easier time switching in; they need not fear an impossible to break pursuit trap.
People will start running Toed+Keldeo+Scizor quite frequently I'm sure, but scizor's not completely immune to prediction like ttar was.
Random nitpick, ghost > dark simply because it hits croak, and won't give out justified boosts.
Okay, first off, no one is claiming Keldeo is going to be OHKOing everything in site with it's Ebelt set, and if you don't have an immunity to Water type attacks, then Specs Keldeo in the rain 2HKOs everything. Starmie is no where near as good for sweeping, as Starmie has no chance in getting past it's hard counters like Ferrothorn (which Keldeo demolishes), the pink blobs (which Keldeo demolishes), and other Pokemon which aren't necessary hard counters to Starmie. I agree with you about what you said about Landorus-I, but don't act as if Keldeo isn't a massive threat. It's a great lure with it's Ebelt set, and it has the power and speed to sweep teams with it's Scarf set, or can wall break and 2HKO any wall with the Specs set.
As for my opinion on whether Keldeo is broken or not...I really don't know. I mean, I like to compare it to Landorus, as they have similar counters.
Keldeo doesn't have U-turn. This I think is the biggest thing for me, because you can't just U-turn out of Keldeo's counters and trap them. Yes you can double switch, but I believe that takes skill and risk, which I think should be encouraged. I think Landorus-I without U-turn wouldn't have been broken for this reason.
Keldeo has checks that have immunities. Again, I think this is also pretty huge. Yes Landorus-I had checks that were immune to Earth Power or Focus Blast, but Landorus-I had the ability to switch moves. Keldeo more often than not is choice locked, and so it's hard walled depending on what move it locks itself into. I dunno if this is enough to keep it OU, but it's something to consider when thinking about Keldeo actually being removed from the OU tier.
This is what makes me think Keldeo might not be broken, but I'm on the fence as on the other hand, Keldeo has the potential to run through offensive teams and stall teams. I think I'll make my decision once the suspect thread is up, as I'll get to see arguments from both sides.
I have to somewhat agree with this sentiment, I honestly have had very little issues with Keldeo in BW2, however, I am almost universally using Amoonguss, its hard counter, so my idea of it may be a bit warped, although when I have not used it and attempted other checks I did have some issues. Another agreement with this sentiment I have is that today's Keldeo users aren't honestly as dangerous as they were in the past, to a defensive team the only sets it really fears are Calm Mind and Specs, Sub-Calm mind is especially dangerous to some teams but it has all but disappeared from Keldeo users today, most Keldeo are Scarf or Expert Belt versions, which honestly aren't that threatening. Finally, a big reason I voted to ban Landorus was because of the cookie cutter Keldeo team which he was an intergral part of, however, without Landorus, this team style wasn't nearly as dangerous and IMO even a bit ineffective on the Suspect ladder (haven't play much OU since the ban, give me a break its been a few days).
A Keldeo suspect is looking to be a lot more of a toss up to me than I first thought, I am interested in seeing what its effect on the meta truly will be in the next test.
A Keldeo suspect is looking to be a lot more of a toss up to me than I first thought, I am interested in seeing what its effect on the meta truly will be in the next test.
Going to point out that unlike Landorus-I, Keldeo is susceptible to Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Sandstorm. Sure it has an SR resistance but the other residual damage puts Keldeo on much more of a timer.
Probably irrelevant to some of you guys though, because also unlike Landorus-I, I feel like the biggest reason Keldeo would be suspected is due to its performance against offense, and not stall. Sand stall has Jellicent/Latias/Amoonguss, Rain stall has Toxicroak/Tentacruel/Celebi, Sun Stall has sun Cress, and weatherless stall commonly runs Amoonguss.
Although worth noting one more trait that's different between Landorus-I and Keldeo. Landorus-I seemed to be a lot more of a dead weight against offense teams than Keldeo is against stall teams.
Probably irrelevant to some of you guys though, because also unlike Landorus-I, I feel like the biggest reason Keldeo would be suspected is due to its performance against offense, and not stall. Sand stall has Jellicent/Latias/Amoonguss, Rain stall has Toxicroak/Tentacruel/Celebi, Sun Stall has sun Cress, and weatherless stall commonly runs Amoonguss.
Although worth noting one more trait that's different between Landorus-I and Keldeo. Landorus-I seemed to be a lot more of a dead weight against offense teams than Keldeo is against stall teams.
Additionally, Keldeo doesn't have any full type immunities. You can't switch in to an earthquake like you could with Lando to gain momentum by then smacking something with a move or u-turning out to counter whatever they do. Plus, Keldeo can eat twaves, crippling the scarf set and hampering the sweeping capabiltiy of sets that rely on hydro pump due to the technical 60% chance of pulling it off.
On the other hand, Keldeo resists both bullet punch and ice shard, which is why the scarf set can be nasty once your team is weak. So the typing goes both ways.
Keldeo is undoubtedly a much bigger threat than Landorus, and this is partially due to the fact that Meru mentioned, that it is much more threatening to offensive teams. It's the single best scarfer in the game, while also being a ridiculously good wallbreaker, lure, and sweeper, all in one (with the help of rain sometimes). Landorus only really hindered defensive teams with its U-turn set, as offensive and balanced teams had multiple ways to deal with it, such as priority (which Keldeo doesn't give a fuck about), scarfers if Landorus is unboosted (while Keldeo is the second fastest around), faster Pokemon in general when Landorus was unboosted, and a lot of checks (that's something that Landorus has in common with Keldeo).
ElectivireRocks
Banned deucer.
Predictably Landorus-T replaced Landorus-I in the popular Keldeo/Tyranitar/Landorus core.
And it performs virtually the same way. I don't think banning Landorus-I accomplished anything.
And it performs virtually the same way. I don't think banning Landorus-I accomplished anything.
I wouldn't say banning Landorus-I didn't accomplish anything. We removed a Pokemon that was deemed broken by the majority of the community and we took one step further to create a desirable metagame. Landorus-T did replace the core somewhat, but it just isn't the same (thank god). Keldeo is going to probably get the boot too, so just give it some time.
I actually have more problems with Landorus-T because Intimidate screws me over. Landorus-I was not the problem, Keldeo was the one that needed the boot. I honestly wish Keldeo was tested first.