We can apply this to any pokemon. Everything has its share of checks and requires some support to work. The difference is that some stuff become too centralizing because youre forced to run specific checks for this pokemon simply because nothing else has a chance against it.
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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 12 - Always (I Wanna Be With You) [SEE POST #263]
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Pokemon team building isn't a free for all where you don't even acknowledge the strongest threats. You have to take defense in mind. Defense wins championships. That is why stall teams were at the top of the ladder during the majority of DPPT. That is why people use pokemon like ferrothorn or tentacruel... As far as specific checks and counters keldeo has many that can be used on balanced teams without hassle. Of course they may not be the only option against it but you do have pokemon that can make the keldeo user think twice about using certain moves as mentioned here dozens of times.
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Did you like missed the previous pages? Keldeo itself can beat most of its supposed counters while the rest are either deal with teammates or they just suck. The standard epbelt set destroys latias, latios, celebi and starmie. Choice specs keldeo can also beat them and beats jelly as well. Calm mind + 3 attacks simply destroys everything except amoonguss but who gives a shit about amoonguss? Stop trying to make keldeo sound like other sweepers. The keldeo user always have the advantage because keldeo is already fully capable of getting past its counters with minimum support while everything else is massacred.
So it turned from X5Dragon vs PDC to Curtains vs SmashBrosBrawl. Honestly, I think that you're thinking too linearly in terms of Keldeo SmashBrosBrawl. There are plenty of checks and counters for Keldeo that can be put into a team. While it might restrict team - building, you can still come up with creative variants. As for Curtains, idk where you're going with darmanitan...
The point about darmanitan was that there are many threats which cannot be checked easily in certain situations. Clearly darmanitan in SOME situations is just unstoppable especially for offensive teams. The point was that offensive teams that get swept by keldeo obviously can be hit as hard or just as hard by other threats. I dont think my post was that hard to understand. but if you don't understand it don't worry about it.
No one is arguing that keldeo is broken due to the fact that it is close to uncounterable, curtains. I agree, darmanitan in sun is just as hard to check as keldeo, terrakion maybe nearly as much so. Here are some crucial differences:
Darmanitan is slow, frail, SR-weak, gets neutered by rain (which is much much more common than sun) and doesnt achieve that massive amount of power (demonstrated in your calc) while still being reasonably fast. Keldeo, on the other hand is a hugely crucial 13 points higher in speed, much bulkier, resists SR, benefits from the most common weather in the game, and is fast enough that it can afford to use a boosting item (not to mention strong enough, given the ubiquity of rain, to forgo a boosting item and still hit p damn hard).
So no, no one is saying keldeo is broken because it's close to impossible to counter. The argument is that it's broken because:
It benefits from a near-ubiquitous weather
It resists SR
It has defensive typing that leaves it resistant to many common priorities and weak to none
It has very passable bulk
It is powerful enough that it has few checks and very few counters
It is versatile enough that it can get past many of its usual checks based on the set
Add to this the fact that its hard counters (I'm thinking very SpD jellicent, amoonguss, bulky CM latias maybe, and jellicent loses to any CM version) are pursuit-trappable and not conducive to being used on offensive teams (which, it has been almost universally conceded, are rather the most viable in this meta). Now you have a mon with all the perks listed above whose few checks that are viable on common offensive teams can easily be gotten around via set tweakings. (Terrakion, for example, might be much much more dangerous around now if landorus-t, breloom, and scizor did not all exist and were not all extremely usable on offensive teams. Keldeo has absolutely no such equivalent.)
Darmanitan is slow, frail, SR-weak, gets neutered by rain (which is much much more common than sun) and doesnt achieve that massive amount of power (demonstrated in your calc) while still being reasonably fast. Keldeo, on the other hand is a hugely crucial 13 points higher in speed, much bulkier, resists SR, benefits from the most common weather in the game, and is fast enough that it can afford to use a boosting item (not to mention strong enough, given the ubiquity of rain, to forgo a boosting item and still hit p damn hard).
So no, no one is saying keldeo is broken because it's close to impossible to counter. The argument is that it's broken because:
It benefits from a near-ubiquitous weather
It resists SR
It has defensive typing that leaves it resistant to many common priorities and weak to none
It has very passable bulk
It is powerful enough that it has few checks and very few counters
It is versatile enough that it can get past many of its usual checks based on the set
Add to this the fact that its hard counters (I'm thinking very SpD jellicent, amoonguss, bulky CM latias maybe, and jellicent loses to any CM version) are pursuit-trappable and not conducive to being used on offensive teams (which, it has been almost universally conceded, are rather the most viable in this meta). Now you have a mon with all the perks listed above whose few checks that are viable on common offensive teams can easily be gotten around via set tweakings. (Terrakion, for example, might be much much more dangerous around now if landorus-t, breloom, and scizor did not all exist and were not all extremely usable on offensive teams. Keldeo has absolutely no such equivalent.)
a) Keldeo can't beat Toxicroak or (Celebi OR jellicent as you can only run ONE HP, not two)
b) Toxicroak is not that easy to deal with if set up and Ttar(Keldeo's common teammate) can't pursuit trap Toxicroak
c) Toxicroak doesn't "just suck"
The fact of the matter is that Keldeo has hard counters: Toxicroak beats 90% of all keldeos one on one.
But Keldeo is still broken imo because of the over-centralizing influence it has on the metagame.
The problem is that Keldeo's "counters" really don't do crap for the defending teams momentum. That, plus almost all of the counters are pursuit bait. All Keldeo does is switch out and try again later.
Amoongus and Toxicroak are the two exceptions, but are very niche (croak is only useful on rain).
Virtually risk free offense.
Amoongus and Toxicroak are the two exceptions, but are very niche (croak is only useful on rain).
Virtually risk free offense.
Fwiw:
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Ghost vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Toxicroak: 162-191 (52.76 - 62.21%) -- 69.53% chance to 2HKO after weather
Not exactly a hard counter :p
Plus toxicroak isn't exactly a mon you can just fit onto a standard team--sure, it works on offense, but only rain offense--over-centralization as well
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Ghost vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Toxicroak: 162-191 (52.76 - 62.21%) -- 69.53% chance to 2HKO after weather
Not exactly a hard counter :p
Plus toxicroak isn't exactly a mon you can just fit onto a standard team--sure, it works on offense, but only rain offense--over-centralization as well
How does ebelt Keldeo destroy the Latis, Celebi and Starmie? You're slower than Starmie and the Latis, while Celebi doesn't get ohko'd. You need to predict the switch to beat the Latis and Starmie, and even then Starmie and Latias require some prior damage plus rocks on the field. On the other hand, Celebi can take a surf + hp bug and get a psychic off, which won't ohko but it does 65-78%. After taking that psychic Keldeo dies to Scizor's bullet punch (or Breloom's mach punch, Lucario's extremespeed... you get the idea). Ebelt Keldeo is also outsped by and dies to Gengar, Zam, or virtually any scarfer at this point.
But fuck, you don't even need all that. You can be creative and get around Keldeo with some smart plays. You predict icy wind or surf? Switch to Ferro. Keldeo can't OHKO Ferro even factoring in that surf damage, but Ferro can OHKO Keldeo with power whip if rocks are in play. He probably won't stay in to eat that whip, but you just forced him out without even really taking any damage.
Keldeo isn't like Lando where your only safe switch in to his main stab is an immunity. Lots of things can take a surf or a secret sword or a hidden power, and while those pokes might be threatened by another move that Keldeo runs, they can force Keldeo out as long as you predict well. Keldeo can break through a lot of those walls by using specs, but I shouldn't even have to tell you how you can counter something that's locked into 1 move. Specs Keld is still outsped by Zam, Gengar and scarfers, too.
ok, I cannot believe that it has had to come to this but the OU staff members had a discussion, and the following users are blacklisted from this thread:
Curtains, X5Dragon, SmashBrosBrawl
The above users are limited to one post a day (24 hrs), until the OU Staff are convinced that post quality has improved, or that these users are no longer "spamming" up the thread with generally terrible arguments. For actual good posts, check out Ojama's, or undisputed's as just 2 people that come to mind that have a good handle as to the sort of posts we want to see.
In the spirit of tradition, Pocket has also been blacklisted, because Haunter and I said so.
Curtains, X5Dragon, SmashBrosBrawl
The above users are limited to one post a day (24 hrs), until the OU Staff are convinced that post quality has improved, or that these users are no longer "spamming" up the thread with generally terrible arguments. For actual good posts, check out Ojama's, or undisputed's as just 2 people that come to mind that have a good handle as to the sort of posts we want to see.
In the spirit of tradition, Pocket has also been blacklisted, because Haunter and I said so.
Point, but I'd prefer to run a more bulky spread:
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Ghost vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Toxicroak: 162-191 (44.02 - 51.9%) -- 17.58% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
However, you're completely right: forcing people to run rain+Toxicroak to hard counter Keldeo is stupid.
So imo, Keldeo is broken
I agree with shrang- there are pokemon that go up to ubers, and then just completely die out from the metagame (eg. manaphy, tornadus-t, etc.) Besides, keldeo isn't broken- it just needs a bit of wearing down to be dealt with. While pokemon in the old days like tornadus-t completely rampaged the tier, keldeo CANNOT clean up teams entirely(from my experience)
A pokemon that is considered banned in my book are those that rampage the tier to shreds, not ones that can be revenge killed(hydro pump missing, stealth rocks, etc.)
Dont ban pokemon for the sake of banning. I would rather let Gen VI do the judging. Besides, banning a pokemon just before a new Gen would be a bummer- Certain pokemon in Gen VI may require Keldeo support to kill. If we just ban keldeo, wont the community just start banning the future pokemon so those pokes fall into obsurity?
A pokemon that is considered banned in my book are those that rampage the tier to shreds, not ones that can be revenge killed(hydro pump missing, stealth rocks, etc.)
Dont ban pokemon for the sake of banning. I would rather let Gen VI do the judging. Besides, banning a pokemon just before a new Gen would be a bummer- Certain pokemon in Gen VI may require Keldeo support to kill. If we just ban keldeo, wont the community just start banning the future pokemon so those pokes fall into obsurity?
Huh, I don't get what you're trying to say with your first paragraph Smoker016. A Pokemon's performance in ubers has nothing to do with whether it should be banned from OU or not. Pokemon can be banned for other reasons than just being extremely dangerous sweepers too, such as Gothitelle in UU and Deoxys-D in OU. One of which provided an immense amount of support through trapping, and the other through hazards.
Also, the current tiers won't carry into 6th gen. Completely new tiers will be made, and the 5th gen tiers will stay. So you don't have to be worried about that.
Now on an unrelated note, can someone please answer my question that was ignored on the last page?
Also, the current tiers won't carry into 6th gen. Completely new tiers will be made, and the 5th gen tiers will stay. So you don't have to be worried about that.
Now on an unrelated note, can someone please answer my question that was ignored on the last page?
Surf? What surf? If i predict a celebi, starmie, latis switch im simply going to icy wind then follow with hp bug next turn. There, now your main check is dead and im still unscatched, good luck trying to revenge kill me now. Yeah sure there are some pokemon that can wall it depending of the hp (some, not a lot) but thats what teammates are there for. And what if you dont have them in your team? Youre supposed to sack something to bring a revenge killer in everytime keldeo gets on the field?
LOL.
And if i predict that Keldeo uses Icy Wind i can stay in with my Volcarona/Heatran/Darmanitan/Victini/Tyranitar/Mamoswine/*insertMonhere*
But youre right the Keldeo player could also predict my predict and just Surf.
Well but what if the non-keldeo user predicts the predict of the predict? And then the one using Keldeo can predict the predict of the predict of the predict.
Good fucking arguement. 100 points out of 100 for this flawless logic.
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To make it clear: Prediction is a terrible arguement because that assumes always that one side makes the right choice whereas the other doesnt. So you are already giving one side the advantage which doesnt create a fair arguement, right?
This also makes Toxicroak a good counter because youd have to predict the Croak switch right with HP[Ghost] to deal around ~50% to it (- 12,5% for Rain Dish) and then your opponent is free to switch again and abuse the lock in HP[Ghost] or stay in ((2 Specs-HP[Ghost] dont 2hko with Rain Dish) and do some stuff (setup predicting the switch/attacking etc). Dumb examples do not make something broken. In the same vein Scizor/Terrakion/*insertmonhere* has no checks/counters if it predicts right/uses the appropriate move in the right situation. This has nothing to do with how strong a Mon is one player is just predicting/guessing right whereas the other isnt. That is usually called outplaying someone.
And if i predict that Keldeo uses Icy Wind i can stay in with my Volcarona/Heatran/Darmanitan/Victini/Tyranitar/Mamoswine/*insertMonhere*
But youre right the Keldeo player could also predict my predict and just Surf.
Well but what if the non-keldeo user predicts the predict of the predict? And then the one using Keldeo can predict the predict of the predict of the predict.
Good fucking arguement. 100 points out of 100 for this flawless logic.
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To make it clear: Prediction is a terrible arguement because that assumes always that one side makes the right choice whereas the other doesnt. So you are already giving one side the advantage which doesnt create a fair arguement, right?
This also makes Toxicroak a good counter because youd have to predict the Croak switch right with HP[Ghost] to deal around ~50% to it (- 12,5% for Rain Dish) and then your opponent is free to switch again and abuse the lock in HP[Ghost] or stay in ((2 Specs-HP[Ghost] dont 2hko with Rain Dish) and do some stuff (setup predicting the switch/attacking etc). Dumb examples do not make something broken. In the same vein Scizor/Terrakion/*insertmonhere* has no checks/counters if it predicts right/uses the appropriate move in the right situation. This has nothing to do with how strong a Mon is one player is just predicting/guessing right whereas the other isnt. That is usually called outplaying someone.
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Okay, since I just got reqs on the OU current ladder, I'm going to say what I think about Keldeo in this metagame.
During my laddering, I ran DragMag for the first 10 battles to speed up the tedious process of laddering on a broken ladder, and then played Rain Stall once I got 2000+100 prov. My Rain stall consisted of Landorus-T / Ferrothorn / Latias / Politoed / Jirachi / Tentacruel, and I have literally no problems with Keldeo. While I'm not the greatest offensive player, I think it's safe to say that Stall has very little trouble with Keldeo. Stall offers solid checks and even counters to Keldeo, including Latias, Tentacruel, Amoonguss, Jellicent, etc. While yes, Keldeo can get past these checks (with perfect prediction, the right coverage move, and perfect conditions), it just doesn't happen in a real battle scenario. It's like saying Hydreigon can 2HKO everything in the metagame, but it just doesn't. Keldeo on paper is strong, but in practice it just isn't that much of a threat. Sure it's a great Pokemon, but that doesn't make it ban worthy in my eyes. Pokemon like Breloom, Kyurem-B and Jirachi are much more threatening in my eyes for this metagame.
There's also an argument going around that Keldeo in unhealthy for this metagame. I have to disagree on this one, as Keldeo keeps top threats in check, namely Scizor, Dragonite, Landorus-T, Tyranitar, and so on. I also don't like the arguement that Keldeo restricts team building. Yes you have to run at least two checks to Water type attacks, but that isn't Keldeo's fault, it's Politoed itself. Now I'm not going to go into detail about Politoed, but if you're complaining about Keldeo's Specs Hydro Pump in the rain KOing everything, it's Politoed's fault, not Keldeo's. If you plan to be successful in this metagame, you need to run at least 2 water type resists, and this was way before Keldeo's time. Latias, Celebi, Rotom-W and Jellicent were all seeing great usage before Keldeo was considered broken, so no, it doesn't restrict your team building imo.
Then there's people arguing that Tyranitar + Keldeo is broken, which is also false. I don't like the fact that people are bringing team mates into this kind of disscussion, but since we are bringing it up I may as well talk about it. The fact that Tyranitar can trap Keldeo's checks doesn't make Keldeo broken, rather it leans more towards Pursuit being broken. Am I saying Pursuit (or Tyranitar) is broken? No. The fact that Tyranitar is on a team slot to get rid of Keldeo's counters already restricts the Keldeo player, and what makes it even worse is that Tyranitar can't even 100% trap Keldeo's checks. Latias, Celebi, Jellicent, Toxicroak, Amoonguss etc all have ways of getting around Tyranitar. Also, getting Tyranitar in on said check is pretty hard, as it requires double switching and prediction, which I think should be encouraged in this metagame, unlike Landorus-I which could just brainlessly use U-turn into Tyranitar.
Is Keldeo broken? I don't think so.
During my laddering, I ran DragMag for the first 10 battles to speed up the tedious process of laddering on a broken ladder, and then played Rain Stall once I got 2000+100 prov. My Rain stall consisted of Landorus-T / Ferrothorn / Latias / Politoed / Jirachi / Tentacruel, and I have literally no problems with Keldeo. While I'm not the greatest offensive player, I think it's safe to say that Stall has very little trouble with Keldeo. Stall offers solid checks and even counters to Keldeo, including Latias, Tentacruel, Amoonguss, Jellicent, etc. While yes, Keldeo can get past these checks (with perfect prediction, the right coverage move, and perfect conditions), it just doesn't happen in a real battle scenario. It's like saying Hydreigon can 2HKO everything in the metagame, but it just doesn't. Keldeo on paper is strong, but in practice it just isn't that much of a threat. Sure it's a great Pokemon, but that doesn't make it ban worthy in my eyes. Pokemon like Breloom, Kyurem-B and Jirachi are much more threatening in my eyes for this metagame.
There's also an argument going around that Keldeo in unhealthy for this metagame. I have to disagree on this one, as Keldeo keeps top threats in check, namely Scizor, Dragonite, Landorus-T, Tyranitar, and so on. I also don't like the arguement that Keldeo restricts team building. Yes you have to run at least two checks to Water type attacks, but that isn't Keldeo's fault, it's Politoed itself. Now I'm not going to go into detail about Politoed, but if you're complaining about Keldeo's Specs Hydro Pump in the rain KOing everything, it's Politoed's fault, not Keldeo's. If you plan to be successful in this metagame, you need to run at least 2 water type resists, and this was way before Keldeo's time. Latias, Celebi, Rotom-W and Jellicent were all seeing great usage before Keldeo was considered broken, so no, it doesn't restrict your team building imo.
Then there's people arguing that Tyranitar + Keldeo is broken, which is also false. I don't like the fact that people are bringing team mates into this kind of disscussion, but since we are bringing it up I may as well talk about it. The fact that Tyranitar can trap Keldeo's checks doesn't make Keldeo broken, rather it leans more towards Pursuit being broken. Am I saying Pursuit (or Tyranitar) is broken? No. The fact that Tyranitar is on a team slot to get rid of Keldeo's counters already restricts the Keldeo player, and what makes it even worse is that Tyranitar can't even 100% trap Keldeo's checks. Latias, Celebi, Jellicent, Toxicroak, Amoonguss etc all have ways of getting around Tyranitar. Also, getting Tyranitar in on said check is pretty hard, as it requires double switching and prediction, which I think should be encouraged in this metagame, unlike Landorus-I which could just brainlessly use U-turn into Tyranitar.
Is Keldeo broken? I don't think so.
I've been playing around on both ladders for a while. For me, Keldeo hasn't been too much of a problem at all. Then again, I do have a Celebi on my team and I haven't gotten worked over by HP Bug or anything. I did play kinda recklessly with my Celebi in one match, but that was my fault. With that being said though, Keldeo is still a nuke under the rain and has ways to deal with whatever it needs to deal with depending on the set.
Voting Do not Ban on Keldeo. I'd really like to urge anyone that hasn't already, to read Undisputed's, Ojama's and Gr8astard's post, as I think they perfectly laid out the arguments for a Keldeo metagame.
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Just because you have to account for Keldeo on every team you make doesn't mean it should be banned. Like Goutland said, preparing for something doesn't really hinder your team. Like for instance, rain teams greatly appreciate Toxicroak, and it just so happens to be a counter that Keldeo simply can't prepare for. Sand teams also like using Jellicent and Gastrodon, two big walls against Keldeo. Preparing for threats doesn't mean that the threat should just be banned outright. That's like saying ban Mienshao from uu because you have to slap on a Gligar to your team to prepare for it.
One of the larger problems I see in suspect test discussions is that people feel the need to provide situational evidence that attempts to emphasize whether or not a Pokemon is too overpowered. The big issue here is that almost anything can be handled appropriately given the right context or circumstance, and most top tier threats can also be made out to seem 'simply too good' by that same token. Hypothetical battle scenarios involving prediction is a cyclical argument. Using damage calculations to show how hard a Pokemon hits 95% of the metagame or giving pep talks about how centralizing something is to the metagame will not decisively illustrate whether or not a Pokemon is a practical problem. It will not demonstrate whether or not a player has the tools available to reasonably handle them, or even if they have no choice but to use them.
What is important to consider is whether or not you as a player feel pressured in to resorting to using that Pokemon to be competitively successful on the ladder because its too strong not to use, and there's simply no other alternative to allow you to succeed. Let me give you a distinct example.
I do not feel its necessary to monologue to any of you why Kyogre is so strong. But lets consider the implications here if Kyogre was in OU for a second, and we were charged with suspect testing it to see if it should be moved to Ubers. If this thread (and most suspect test discussions) are any indication, people would likely be using similar arguments to necessitate a ban. Counters and checks, damage calculations, centralizing qualities, et cetera. Let's examine those for a second.
Kyogre, while difficult to handle defensively, has counters and checks. Chansey, Ludicolo, Gastrodon, Blissey, Ferrothorn, Latias, Latios all come to mind. More open up if Kyogre is using Water Spout and its health decreases, and I'm sure with some exploration and creative thinking more could be found under broader conditions. That's actually quite a few for such a top tier threat. I often see comments on how Landorus-I didn't have any counters or checks, and I know other threats like Terrakion either fit this bill or are harder to handle via tactical theorymon and hypothetical battle scenarios. And since how much damage a threat is able to do to specific checks and counters often defines what those checks and counters are, which is observed through damage calculations, it would appear that even though its quite strong, it still has ways to be dealt with.
Kyogre would probably centralize the metagame. But does that imply Kyogre is broken? No, not necessarily. Many Pokemon have centralized the current meta in the past without needing to be suspect tested. Blissey and Scizor come to mind, as well as Tyranitar. I'm sure there have been others. All of these Pokemon at one point or another commanded that the metagame shift its paradigm to account for them because of how influential they are. None of them needed to be tested though. They weren't needed to win, they were just really good options, and it made sense to account for them. Kyogre currently has a 45% ~ usage rate in Ubers--that displays an incredible amount of centralization, and thats because there is a correlation between how broken a Pokemon is and how often it will be used, ergo how influential it is in the meta and how much respect it commands. I'm just pointing this out to say that there is a correlation, but correlation does not equal causation, and that there is plenty of evidence of Pokemon that have stagnated diversity and centralized how the meta worked without being broken threats.
So if a Pokemon isn't broken just because it centralizes the metagame, and a Pokemon can still be broken even if it has both counters and checks, what defines if it is actually broken or not? What's the difference between Kyogre and all the other examples I mentioned? It's simple. In a metagame where Kyogre is legal in standard, you wouldn't be able to ladder and expect to be able to climb the ladder successfully and consistently without having to resort to using Kyogre. Simply put, Kyogre is so strong that you would be foolish not to use it. It wouldn't matter if you had the checks and counters necessary to take it out because there's nothing from stopping you from using the checks and counters to handle enemy Kyogre while also using your own. In a sense the competitive decision is made for you because there is no better alternative than to use it. This is a defining feature of a broken Pokemon threat.
I feel these are the imperative question that players need to ask themselves when they ladder. Will I lose if I don't use this? Can I win against people who are using this if I choose not to? Is there another competitively viable alternative, or am I forced to use this to win? People need to start relying on their battle experience to come to a consensus in these discussions.
I am not a suspect tester right now. I don't have an opinion on Keldeo, and I have been out of the loop since BW1, so I lack the experience and have absolutely no say here as to what Keldeo is like. But there are a lot of arguments being made for and against it that I think are missing their mark, and I think people need to shift their perceptions on how to approach suspect testing in general.
What is important to consider is whether or not you as a player feel pressured in to resorting to using that Pokemon to be competitively successful on the ladder because its too strong not to use, and there's simply no other alternative to allow you to succeed. Let me give you a distinct example.
I do not feel its necessary to monologue to any of you why Kyogre is so strong. But lets consider the implications here if Kyogre was in OU for a second, and we were charged with suspect testing it to see if it should be moved to Ubers. If this thread (and most suspect test discussions) are any indication, people would likely be using similar arguments to necessitate a ban. Counters and checks, damage calculations, centralizing qualities, et cetera. Let's examine those for a second.
Kyogre, while difficult to handle defensively, has counters and checks. Chansey, Ludicolo, Gastrodon, Blissey, Ferrothorn, Latias, Latios all come to mind. More open up if Kyogre is using Water Spout and its health decreases, and I'm sure with some exploration and creative thinking more could be found under broader conditions. That's actually quite a few for such a top tier threat. I often see comments on how Landorus-I didn't have any counters or checks, and I know other threats like Terrakion either fit this bill or are harder to handle via tactical theorymon and hypothetical battle scenarios. And since how much damage a threat is able to do to specific checks and counters often defines what those checks and counters are, which is observed through damage calculations, it would appear that even though its quite strong, it still has ways to be dealt with.
Kyogre would probably centralize the metagame. But does that imply Kyogre is broken? No, not necessarily. Many Pokemon have centralized the current meta in the past without needing to be suspect tested. Blissey and Scizor come to mind, as well as Tyranitar. I'm sure there have been others. All of these Pokemon at one point or another commanded that the metagame shift its paradigm to account for them because of how influential they are. None of them needed to be tested though. They weren't needed to win, they were just really good options, and it made sense to account for them. Kyogre currently has a 45% ~ usage rate in Ubers--that displays an incredible amount of centralization, and thats because there is a correlation between how broken a Pokemon is and how often it will be used, ergo how influential it is in the meta and how much respect it commands. I'm just pointing this out to say that there is a correlation, but correlation does not equal causation, and that there is plenty of evidence of Pokemon that have stagnated diversity and centralized how the meta worked without being broken threats.
So if a Pokemon isn't broken just because it centralizes the metagame, and a Pokemon can still be broken even if it has both counters and checks, what defines if it is actually broken or not? What's the difference between Kyogre and all the other examples I mentioned? It's simple. In a metagame where Kyogre is legal in standard, you wouldn't be able to ladder and expect to be able to climb the ladder successfully and consistently without having to resort to using Kyogre. Simply put, Kyogre is so strong that you would be foolish not to use it. It wouldn't matter if you had the checks and counters necessary to take it out because there's nothing from stopping you from using the checks and counters to handle enemy Kyogre while also using your own. In a sense the competitive decision is made for you because there is no better alternative than to use it. This is a defining feature of a broken Pokemon threat.
This illustrates what I am talking about perfectly. To quote Soul Fly, every successful team was forced to use Garchomp in order to remain competitively successful on the ladder because there simply wasn't a reason to not use Garchomp, which eventually necessitated players in to also needing multiple counters and checks.
I feel these are the imperative question that players need to ask themselves when they ladder. Will I lose if I don't use this? Can I win against people who are using this if I choose not to? Is there another competitively viable alternative, or am I forced to use this to win? People need to start relying on their battle experience to come to a consensus in these discussions.
I am not a suspect tester right now. I don't have an opinion on Keldeo, and I have been out of the loop since BW1, so I lack the experience and have absolutely no say here as to what Keldeo is like. But there are a lot of arguments being made for and against it that I think are missing their mark, and I think people need to shift their perceptions on how to approach suspect testing in general.
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