Pokémon Talonflame

[Count Serperior]

So how much speed EVs should Talonflame run to outrun all important pokemon that need a Flare Blitz to the face?

According to Serebii, Talon gets 81 Attack and 126 Speed (the OP still has 130)

I bet you could run Adamant for higher attack, and just enough EVs to outspeed...what? Jirachi? and the rest you dump into HP since the rest of your moveset will probably be Flying moves or U-turn.

Flare Blitz
Acrobatics
Roost
Tailwind/U-turn

That's 3/4 or 2/4 of your moves having priority.

 

[Critical_Hax]

It really depends on what threats your team needs to outspeed and how common each threat is. If Heliolisk ends up being OU, you run enough to be able to outspeed heliolisk. If its uncommon or your team can deal with it well, you can drop down to the tier above Thundurus-T or whatever pokemon you can't hit hard with priority Brave Bird/Acrobatics. Similarly, if Raikou or something faster was a threat for your team you see on a regular basis, you might invest more to outspeed it.

In addition, with any pokemon that doesn't run max speed because its in an awkward higher speed tier (such as DPP Infernape who'd drop down to beat Garchomp and pump the rest into SpA for Overheat), there will be some element of speed creep once a general consensus is achieved. I suppose there might also be some specific KOs you avoid with certain bulk investments (maybe CB Bullet Punch from Scizor after SR or something), which will determine what the standard speed Talonflame runs are, but the meta is currently too young and unstable for a final number

 

[Rechi]

So how much speed EVs should Talonflame run to outrun all important pokemon that need a Flare Blitz to the face?

An Adamant Talonflame with 252 Speed outspeeds 252+ base 110s by exactly 1 point.

 

[Heroes and Cons]

It's fast but its offensive AND defensive stats suck, not to mention its 4x weakness to SR and lack of any way to break through rock types besides the mediocre Steel Wing. It also relies on setting up which is pretty difficult when you take 50% damage just entering and will most likely have to endure another attack on your 70/70/70 defenses to get the SD boost. Its SD-boosted power and Gale Wing ability might make it used a fair amount, but I don't see it being particularly good or effective overall.
As a sort of analogy, let me direct you to Weavile, who has similar speed, an (arguably) superior offensive typing, lesser weakness to SR, similar defenses, massively superior offenses, better coverage (especially now that it doesn't need fighting moves to break through steel types), and reliance on Swords Dance, along with a great STAB priority move that was supereffective against the most common and threatening typing in standard play last gen. Even with all these great traits, and in a dragon-dominated metagame, it was still basically never used. For everything Talonflame has going for it, it has a lot of negatives and I don't see it really being as good as some people are making it out to be.

 

[Fennekin]

Serious question here. Is Overheat worth using over Flare Blitz or some other move?
I know there's a huge difference in Atk and SpA, but it's worth considering, imo. I mean, when you're x4 weak to SR and your main stab has brutal recoil, Overheat doesn't sound too bad. It can hit most prominent steels (Ferro, Forre, Skarm, Scizor) in their weaker defensive stat, too. Idk, I think it's worth using with a Naughty nature since it's not tanking hits anyway.

 

[Jaetheho]

Serious question here. Is Overheat worth using over Flare Blitz or some other move?
I know there's a huge difference in Atk and SpA, but it's worth considering, imo. I mean, when you're x4 weak to SR and your main stab has brutal recoil, Overheat doesn't sound too bad. It can hit most prominent steels (Ferro, Forre, Skarm, Scizor) in their weaker defensive stat, too. Idk, I think it's worth using with a Naughty nature since it's not tanking hits anyway.

It does sound bad because Flare Blitz will still be outdamaging the forementioned threats.
with 80 atk, it needs all the evs it can get.

 

[Raseri]

I've been legitimately surprised by Talonflame, it hasn't been that bad in OU so far in the matches I've played. I realy underestimated the power of priority Brave Bird, it makes revenge killing a lot easier, and lowers the need for a team to carry a dedicated revenge killer. Of course, Talonflame isn't outstanding at all, but it's able to threaten suicide leads like no other, and can hit a lot of the potential top threats in the meta super effectively!

 

[AstralFire]

Serious question here. Is Overheat worth using over Flare Blitz or some other move?
I know there's a huge difference in Atk and SpA, but it's worth considering, imo. I mean, when you're x4 weak to SR and your main stab has brutal recoil, Overheat doesn't sound too bad. It can hit most prominent steels (Ferro, Forre, Skarm, Scizor) in their weaker defensive stat, too. Idk, I think it's worth using with a Naughty nature since it's not tanking hits anyway.

Gets a guaranteed OHKO on Skarmory after SR even with its abysmal 74 Sp. Atk (going off of Serebii's stats, they seem more accurate - you won't hear me say that very often) which Flare Blitz can't guarantee even with Life Orb. (Possible want to go with Rash (+SpA,-SpD) if you really need it to one-shot most steels instead, though; without +SpA or Life Orb, it's only got a 50% chance to OHKO Spec Def Skarm after Stealth Rock.) Looks worth it to me depending on team need.

 

[Smexymillz]

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/gen6customgame-57752990
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/gen6customgame-57771016


I've been having quite some success using mega garchomp for cleaning up after talonflame uses suicide tailwind.
Jolteon with elec gem to scout + covet to take an enemies item later when they switch are expecting a thunderbolt on a water type.
Espeon to deflect rocks + yawn so talonflame can come in then set up shop.
Mega garchomp to come in after tailwind and finish up
Frolass is my lead for spikes and to take out other mons with destiny bond/Starmie is just there because it fits and if espeon messes up.

With proper support TalonFlame is pretty good.
It hurts too many things to be thrown in UU even with that crappy attack

 

[Temporaryanonymous]

Serious question here. Is Overheat worth using over Flare Blitz or some other move?
I know there's a huge difference in Atk and SpA, but it's worth considering, imo. I mean, when you're x4 weak to SR and your main stab has brutal recoil, Overheat doesn't sound too bad. It can hit most prominent steels (Ferro, Forre, Skarm, Scizor) in their weaker defensive stat, too. Idk, I think it's worth using with a Naughty nature since it's not tanking hits anyway.

Overheat is good if you're using something like the sashed set I posted earlier since Flare Blitz causes recoil, causes contact, and Overheat nets you some decent kills that phsyical hits can't.

 

[L0rdL33t]

Mind if I ask why priority is important when you have a blistering 130 base speed? Hitting mega areodactyls that resist it?

 

[Pen Ink]

Mind if I ask why priority is important when you have a blistering 130 base speed? Hitting mega areodactyls that resist it?

Revenge scarf and boosting mons, plus faster Aqua Jets, Extremespeeds, etc.

 

[Temporaryanonymous]

Mind if I ask why priority is important when you have a blistering 130 base speed? Hitting mega areodactyls that resist it?

Priority lets you go for uninvested speed if you wish. You can put EVs in hp or spA instead of in speed since uninvented 130 is still pretty fast. It also allows for a way to counter other Pokemon that have priority like Mach Punch or Bullet Punch.

 

[Yeah Galo Sengan]

Because some Pokémon are scarfed. Some Pokémon have netted a speed boost and are threatening your team. being able to reliably revenge with a priority STAB move that is unresisted is extremely useful.

PS: You'd be able to outspeed most priority, but I'm fairly sure Extremespeed is still +2 and would therefore still take priority.

 

[Slheyas]

Mind if I ask why priority is important when you have a blistering 130 base speed? Hitting mega areodactyls that resist it?

Talonflame poops on Blaziken (even Mega) for one.

 

[Mattman324]

Mind if I ask why priority is important when you have a blistering 130 base speed? Hitting mega areodactyls that resist it?

Outspeeding sneaky opponents who think they can priority clean you (except Dragonite, really rare Lucarios, and lolLinoones) beating most Megas that aren't defense based 1v1 (which includes checking Mega Blaziken and revenge killing 100% of the time) and you can choose to let it run extra Attack because it's going to be better in Speed anyway.

 

[Nysyr]

Adamant is basically a given on this poke due to it getting priority on its main stab.

Acro set is definitely the most powerful and consistent, and can play around its SR weakness.

Talonflame @ Flying Gem
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 4 Def / 252 Spd / 252 Atk
Adamant Nature
- Acrobatics
- Flare Blitz
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost

Will-O-Wisp is good for crippling stuff such as Aegislash as it will go thru KS. PS doesn't have the right base stat yet for Talonflame, but you should try to hit 356 speed at a minimum to outspeed Jolly MLucario. Talonflame just doesn't have the bulk to run a SD set.

 

[Fennekin]

Overheat is good if you're using something like the sashed set I posted earlier since Flare Blitz causes recoil, causes contact, and Overheat nets you some decent kills that phsyical hits can't.

I completely missed that set. Gonna look for it now, since I'm pretty fond of Overheat in mixed fire-types, especially over Flare Blitz.

 

[Temporaryanonymous]

I completely missed that set. Gonna look for it now, since I'm pretty fond of Overheat in mixed fire-types, especially over Flare Blitz.

Here's the set (updated a little bit) for the record:

Talonflame @ Focus Sash
Ability:Gale Wings
Lonely 252atk 248spA 8spe
0hp 0def 0spD
-Swords Dance
-Acrobatics
-Steel Wing / Brave Bird
-Overheat / Flamethrower

I think it has a lot more potential as a burn spreader though. With ridiculous speed, a priority recovery move, and U-turn, I feel it has some really undiscovered potential as a pokemon that can cripple all physical fighters of the opponent by spreading burns and then bouncing out. Just be sure to have a spinner.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

So I just did some calcs, and here are the biggest counters to a +2 talonflame (I used LO adamant with brave bird and roost)
-Tyranitar
-Heatran (can't do anything back but roar)
-Dragonite (E-speed if weakened, can take one BB if no stealth rock)
-Hippowdon (can only take one BB. if hippo doesn't have stone edge, its only option is roar)
-Rotom-W (again, can only take one BB so it can be worn down easily)
-Landorus-T (once again can only take one BB)

EDIT: only Tyranitar, Heatran, and Dragonite (if no rocks) can switch in, so yeah, this is impressive.

 

[JackOfSparks]

I feel like you guys might be taking this the wrong direction.

Suicide Lead Talonflame @ Choice Band
Gale Wings, Adamant Nature
4 HP, 252 Atk, 252 Spe
Brave Bird
Flare Blitz
Steel Wing
U-Turn
What Talonflame has over almost every other Pokemon right now is a base speed of at least 120, and priority. This means that Talonflame's Flying attacks can outrun every Prankster user in the game. What this set aims to do, then, is to crash into the opponent, repeatedly, and go down with a blaze of glory. Flying and Fire are horrific defensively, but in an offensive capacity, it provides almost perfect coverage. With Steel Wing thrown in as well, the only Pokemon who resists every single move is our old friend Heatran. U-Turn provides a way to scout, or switch out without losing momentum.

And my take on the Mixed Attacker set...

Mixed Attacker @ Fire Gem/Flying Gem
Gale Wings, Lonely/Mild Nature
252 Atk, 4 SpAtk, 252 Spe
Overheat (TM 50)
Acrobatics
Steel Wing/Flare Blitz
U-Turn

Similar to the last set, but trading out pure kamikaze power for bouncing in and out, hitting with a surprising amount of power at remarkable speed. Overheat is the reason to go mixed, as lacking a proper way to deal with the typing, many opponents will switch to a physical wall. Lonely nature and a Flying Gem provides more OOMPH for the physical attacks, but if you want the Overheat to have that extra bit of surprise power, go with a Mild nature and a Fire Gem instead. -Def is chosen, as most of the types that Talonflame will want to switch into are either primarily special (Grass, Fire), or Ground. A Rock attack is going to OHKO Talonflame no matter what, so Defense isn't worth the investment. U-Turn is almost necessary with Overheat to bounce out and back in later. The choice of Steel Wing or Flare Blitz comes down to either reliability or coverage.

 

[JayHankEdLyon]

Talonflame is going to get better and better depending on how common Speed Boosters become: Scolipede, Blaziken, Ninjask (lol) and Yanmega are all outsped and KOd with Brave Bird/Acrobatics now matter how many boosts they get.

I love it.

 

[Slheyas]

Talonflame is going to get better and better depending on how common Speed Boosters become: Scolipede, Blaziken, Ninjask (lol) and Yanmega are all outsped and KOd with Brave Bird/Acrobatics now matter how many boosts they get.

I love it.

And if they know that you can expect a switch and grab a free Sword Dance / Tailwind

 

[Thorhammer]

Could there be any merit in holding Sky Plate? Flying STAB is going to be Talonflame's main method of attack; Sky Plate Brave Bird hits for 144 BP as opposed to LO Brave Bird's 156 and no-item Acrobatics' 110. Seems like it'd be worth it if you're okay with taking the Brave Bird recoil but don't want to make Talonflame kill itself any faster than that.

 

[RufflesPro]

Talonflame is awesome, but I also see that Bulk up could be a good replacement of Swords Dance, his defense isn't bad after +1 stage of it. And I like how talonflame has Roost + Flare Blitz/Brave bird, that recoil is easily regenerated with Gale wings, plus it gives up his flying type which is good against an electric pokemon (better if he was physical and you were using Bulk Up)