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Pokémon Talonflame

Discussion in 'OverUsed' started by TaBuu, Oct 14, 2013.

  1. Professional2341

    Professional2341

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    Talonflame is awesome, but I also see that Bulk up could be a good replacement of Swords Dance, his defense isn't bad after +1 stage of it. And I like how talonflame has Roost + Flare Blitz/Brave bird, that recoil is easily regenerated with Gale wings, plus it gives up his flying type which is good against an electric pokemon (better if he was physical and you were using Bulk Up)
  2. DudeBro420

    DudeBro420

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    I cannot fathom why people are honestly considering a defensive set and are excited about priority Roost. Talonflame has arguably one of the worst defensive typings in the game, terrible defensive stats, and loses half of his HP on entry. Priority Roost is extremely predictable and will cause it's death to be even more swift via the ever-common EQ.

    Do what this Pokemon does best, kill everything it can and set up Tailwind. I really like the Lead set that JackofSparks posted too. It OHKOs Galvantula, preventing Sticky Web, and if the opposing Lead is a SR setter that Talonflame can't handle, U-turn to Xatu or Espeon.

    Considering the bulk and x4 SR weakness Talonflame has, I think he would be most reliable as a lead. If your spinner/defoger dies, Talonflame is as good as dead too.
    Smexymillz, Farpafraf and Punchshroom like this.
  3. Professional2341

    Professional2341

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    Dude, what do you mean bad defensives. A 70/80 isn't that bad, and if out on a physical sweeper (that doesn't use rock ofc), after Bulk Up + Roost, you can survive a few turns and then sweep. Easy. Not that I'm saying you are wrong, but Bulk Up is definitely to be considered.
    U-Turn is good yes, especially in a lead, Roost is always good, except if someone predicted it and used EQ, but still trolling for Electric mons. Talonflame can OHKO Galavantula anyways, flare blitz does a lot, and what's good about roost is that it recovers what is lost by recoil.

    Entry hazards are a problem not to be forgotten yes, but you don't HAVE to roost after SR damage.
  4. Temporaryanonymous

    Temporaryanonymous
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    78/71/69 are honestly not that bad stats when invested upon, and especially if you get off a burn. If you max your EVs out, you can usually survive nearly all non rock type moves. If you insist on staying in against a rockmon or not using a spinner for rocks, well then you're using it wrong. Using defensive Talonflame runs a bit of the gimmick factor, but also on the surprise factor. Talonflame is pretty much the fastest Will o Wisp user in the game, and using that pretty much doubles its defenses.

    Also, this isn't that great of a Galvantula counter since I see lots of Galvantula carry sash to guarantee getting off Sticky Web, so your priority STAB is useless if your goal is to kill Galvantula before web comes up.

    If you're going for more damage, might as well go all the way and use Choice Band or Life Orb Brave Bird.
  5. Snoopy

    Snoopy

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    Is it worth it to run full Speed EVs and Adamant on this? I'm considering 164 to get the jump on Zapdos and other base 100s but is there anything worthwhile I'm gonna miss out on?
  6. ApplepieFTW

    ApplepieFTW

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    Check the speed tiers I guess.
  7. Sodium Rising

    Sodium Rising

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    126 is the base speed, so we are looking at a delightfully trollish speed of 386 with plus natures. Like wise you have a neutral investment of 351 with adamant.

    If you're concerned about speed issues with Alakazam,Swellow,Tornadus-T, and Weavile then I suppose positive nature is for you.

    If you don't run 252 and adamant you lose against all 110 speed tier pokes. Just a matter of what falls to priority brave bird, and what you can't afford to lose to.
  8. Thorhammer

    Thorhammer

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    Any viable item is going to increase his damage somehow, but Choice Band and Life Orb have nasty opportunity costs that limit his ability to keep hitting.
  9. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    Defensive sets are pretty bad, not mentioning terrible defenses (78/71/69 are worse than Pidgeot's 83/75/70) and bad defensive typing (offers next to nothing over bulkier Flying-types, and is now weak to Water), especially with investment, because it would lose out on power and thus making its priority Flying attacks, its main niche, much weaker as a result. Stuff like Will-o-Wisp or Roost could be filler, but otherwise stick to an offensive set that either uses offensive moves like U-turn, Steel Wing, or lol Me First; or the aforementioned auxiliary moves.

    Also, Talonflame gets Bulk Up for some reason. This could open some doors toward bulky boosting Talonflame, but it remains to be seen.
  10. Captain Awesome

    Captain Awesome

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    Assuming the 126 base speed on Serebii is correct, what EVs would be optimal for Fire Chicken Mk II? Obviously, it would have to be such that the EVs let Talonflame hit something it would rather hit with Flare Blitz than Brave Bird, and the fastest Pokemon I can think of like this is Thundurus-I at base 114.
  11. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    Actually, Thundy-I has base 111 Speed. It's likely the fastest Flying-resist Pokemon you'll see in OU that underspeeds Talonflame, but Talonflame would still be forced to run Jolly.
  12. RayStrikeAbius

    RayStrikeAbius

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    Say hello, one and all, to what may very well be the FIRST EVER OU BEGINNING-BIRD POKEMON.

    The predecessors were Pidgeot, Noctowl, Swellow, Staraptor, and Unfezant. Pidgeot, Noctowl, and Unfezant never had the potential. Staraptor and Swellow, came close, but fell short.

    At last we have an OU-worthy Beginning-Bird. Rejoice. I totally would have picked this guy for my team Flyer AND Fire-type, IF I hadn't already picked Charmander in Lumiose.

    Still.......'bout time. This guy is pretty able, no doubt. That ability Gale Wing is simultaneously awesome and annoying as shit (the latter when I'm FACING this thing). Fire-Flying's ever-common and ever-present massive weaknesses are unfortunate, but still:

    YAY!!!
  13. vBlue

    vBlue

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    Yeah this thing is winning me every match on wifi, in part because everyone and their dog leads with SB Mega Blaziken.

    Unfortunately, I don't see it being nearly as good in the Smogon meta where pointy rocks tend to negate the chance of any Fire /Flying type being viable.
    Darkerones likes this.
  14. Tikhaos

    Tikhaos

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    How much Sp. Atk is needed to kill Ferrothorn/Scizor/Forretress or other 4x weak Pokemon in one hit from Fire Blast or Flamethrower? A magic number or specifics for each of them would be fine
  15. Talpr0ne

    Talpr0ne

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    Why in the hell would you split evs when you have access to Flare Blitz?
  16. speedlot

    speedlot

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    If you really want to deal with them, Talonflame can learn Overheat Via TM.
  17. Siggu

    Siggu

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    It could be considered in Ferrothorn's case due to the combination of recoil + Iron Barbs
  18. Thorhammer

    Thorhammer

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    Without Flare Bitz, you don't have a second physical attack to run off Swords Dance and hit Flying resists. But perhaps Overheat could work in the fourth slot?
  19. Aldrius

    Aldrius

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    Volcarona has Morning Sun and Roost. It also doesn't NEED the boosting move so much as it becomes almost unstoppable when it starts boosting. Though actually you could make a Quiver Dance-esque set for Talonflame...

    Like... Bulk Up, Roost, Brave Bird and Flare Blitz. It doesn't care about speed (and it has great speed anyway), flying is better coverage than bug for the most part... though it doesn't have Volcarona's power, which means it can't afford to invest in bulk quite as much as Volcarona can.
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2013
  20. Slheyas

    Slheyas

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    Only if you run Life Orb, because then it stacks somethin fierce.

    I've killed a fair share of Ferrothorn and Iron Barbs + recoil hurts as much as killing things with a higher base HP. I'd rather use the last slot for Tailwind or Will'o'wisp.
  21. Meteor

    Meteor

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    I'm not sure exactly how 80 ATK, even with Priority, is less dependent on boosting than 135SpA and 100 Spe, myself. As for roost as recovery, I would question exactly how many opportunities you're going to have to have a 70/70/70 Fire type recover 50% of its health and not immediately lose 70% or so when the opponent moves, at the least, I don't see that many occasions where your two statements actually coincide.


    Personally from what I've played around with, getting a Swords Dance or Roost off is very difficult for such a frail, poorly defensively typed pokemon. I will definitely give bulk up a shot instead (though I don't think +1 is enough power for our avian friend), but right now I'm seeing a pokemon that needs a lot of support for results that could easily be achieved by other options (or exceeded by things that need equal support). Still, as I see it Talonflame has a very bright future ahead of it in UU, as well as a comfy niche in OU countering speed boosters.
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2013
  22. Nubbins

    Nubbins

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    +2 adamant talonflame is sitting at 574 atk while +1 timid volcarona is has 552 spatk. And talonflame's moves have higher BP. After one turn of set up, talonflame is stronger and techinically faster than volcarona.

    Finding a turn to SD with talonflame is hard but SD isn't the main focus. Volcarona and QD are inseparable while talonflame operates just fine without SD. And there are a few OU pokes that talonflame can set up on. Scizor for example can't do anything against it. And if you scout a lack of pokemon that require flareblitz, you can easily set up on a neutral special attack then proceed to acrobatics. But like I said, SD is merely a bonus for talonflame. It's ability to revenge kill basically anything is it's main selling point.

    The fact that talonflame can check almost every single sweeper is amazing. And stab flareblitz means that it can punch through steel types that are able to wall most physical pokemon. Simply put, talonflame puts far more on the table than volcarona can dream of.

    Talonflame and volcarona shouldn't really be compared anyways outside of 4x SR weak. One is a set up sweeper while the other is a revenge killer than can also clean up. And SR is far less common than in say gen 4.

    Also hilarious is that fact that ditto can't revenge kill acrobatics talonflame as acro only has 55 bp on ditto.
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2013
    TheCanadianWifier and Talonflame like this.
  23. Captain Awesome

    Captain Awesome

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    The next relevant thing that Talonflame wants to hit with Flare Blitz rather than Brave Bird is probably Mega Lucario. 144 Spe EVs outspeeds Adamant but Talonflame needs to run Jolly to outrun Jolly Megalukes. That means you can run 114 HP and hit 325 HP, or run 88 and hit 319, a lefties number if that's your game.

    88 HP and 56 Defense takes 15.04 - 17.86% from Mega Luke's BP, 40.12 - 47.33% from its Crunch and 30.09 - 35.42% from its CC at +0 and can then Talonflame can retaliate with Flare Blitz.

    So if you're using Lefties on your SD or Bulkup sets you might want to tweak your EVs. I also didn't see anyone discussing that 136 EVs won't outspeed Mega Luke, though to be fair it can't OHKO at +0 and stuff.

    I'm not totally sure what my point was, I hope this post was useful to someone.
  24. kiriyainori

    kiriyainori

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    1hko speed boosters might be its main use in OU. Flying gem Acrobat should be enough to 1Hko Yangma and Mega-Blaziken if running on admant. Would be nice if there's a calculation on that.
  25. Slheyas

    Slheyas

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    252+ Atk Talonflame Acrobatics vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Blaziken : 342-404 (100.29 - 118.47%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    That's without Flying Gem.

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