Pokémon Talonflame

[Thorhammer]

Yeah I dunno what I was thinking, there's a lot more stuff than that... Sucker Punch Absol can outrun it if it's not got enough investment, I'm sure there's others.

252 Atk Mega Pinsir Aerilate Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 130 - 153 (43.8 - 51.5%)

Not that fun to take, especially after rocks. Granted, if Pinsir is outspeeding you, you should have a good bit more than 4 HP, so you'll have some leeway if you've kept Talonflame unharmed otherwise, but with its attacks, what are the chances of that?

 

[alexwolf]

As others already said, going with no item and Acrobatics is inferior to Brave Bird + Lefties. While Leftovers might not always be enough to completely mitigate the recoil from Brave Bird, Brave Bird has 10 more BP and Leftovers heals Talonflame whenever it is not using Brave Bird, which is big.

Since it is common on Band Ho-oh in Ubers, I guess Sleep Talk might be a good option as a filler ?

Never use Sleep Talk on Talonflame. If Talonflame becomes asleep it loses its priority on flying moves when using Sleep Talk, which is a normal move, so it's not worth it.

 

[muramusaw8]

I don't have any experince using CB Talonflame, but Sleep Talk can't be complete garbage, as it'll shock the hell out of unsuspecting Grass 'Mons, etc. However, it probably is a lesser option when compared to Will-O-Wisp, a possibly-game-deciding Tailwind, a gimmicky Me First, or even Steel Wing to smack a predicted Rock 'Mon switch-in.

 

[thedeafelectrician]

So what can stop talonflame at +2 consistently? Only things I've really seen so far are heatran, tyranitar, hippodown, mega blastoise, and a few other random things I don't remember. I remember hearing bulky ground was the way to go...

 

[muramusaw8]

So what can stop talonflame at +2 consistently? Only things I've really seen so far are heatran, tyranitar, hippodown, mega blastoise, and a few other random things I don't remember. I remember hearing bulky ground was the way to go...

Unaware Quagsire and Clefable, if physically-defensive, could probably halt the attempted sweep, but I haven't done any calcs. Pretty sure Kabutops, Omastar, and Barbaracle can also take a single boosted hit and definitely KO back. A healthy Aggron/Mega-Aggron will also block Talonflame's sweep.

 

[Kejmur]

So what can stop talonflame at +2 consistently? Only things I've really seen so far are heatran, tyranitar, hippodown, mega blastoise, and a few other random things I don't remember. I remember hearing bulky ground was the way to go...

Max HP Rotom-W can't be KOed by ANYTHING Talon throws on him and you easily KO him back with Hydropump/Thunderbolt (the only Rotom-W version which risks KO is 4 HP one with SR up). Rotom-H is another good Rotom form which handle Talonflame perfectly fine. I'm pretty sure Suicune (which I call good this Gen with Bulky Offense) easily takes +2 hit and KO back. Slowbro should work perfectly fine as well. Tyrantrum has no trouble switching on Talonflame and force it out (or KO back). Talonflame isn't hard to counter, it's just that many of his counters are kind of useless outside of countering him in OU (like Physically Defensive Omastar, Lanturn [although for me it's really underrated pick] and Regirock). I mentioned those which are 100% OU viable. And those which you mentioned are good picks as well.

 

[Jaroda]

The definitive best Talonflame counter not in Ubers is Regirock. 80/200/100 defenses and resisting both STABs means even +6 Talonflame with Sky Plate has AT BEST a 4HKO chance. With prevalent Tyranitar he honestly isn't a bad choice on a team if you go full defense or use an Assault Vest in the sand for crazy good SpD as well. He has tons of high BP moves, Drain Punch, Curse, and RestTalk. Clear Body also means he doesn't fear Intimidate users. Impish 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Df really gives you great mixed bulk and the attack you needs to 2-3HKO many important threats. He's actually pretty good if you give him a shot. Definitely advise trying the Assault Vest set with Sand somewhere.

 

[Olly]

I guess I am one of the few using Choice Band Talonflame. This thing can wreck late game while U-Turning away from its counters early game. I am playing in pre-Pokebank so Heatran isn't around in the metagame I am playing. Most people use Tyranitar and Rotom-W as their Talonflame counter. Tyranitar doesn't like a Choice Band U-Turn at all.

This is my set:
Talonflame @ Choice Band
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 208 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- U-turn
- Steel Wing

Choice Band Brave Bird just wrecks late game. The speed is enough so it can be used as a last ditch check to Mega Pinsir.

 

[Thorhammer]

I guess I am one of the few using Choice Band Talonflame. This thing can wreck late game while U-Turning away from its counters early game. I am playing in pre-Pokebank so Heatran isn't around in the metagame I am playing. Most people use Tyranitar and Rotom-W as their Talonflame counter. Tyranitar doesn't like a Choice Band U-Turn at all.

This is my set:
Talonflame @ Choice Band
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 208 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- U-turn
- Steel Wing

Choice Band Brave Bird just wrecks late game. The speed is enough so it can be used as a last ditch check to Mega Pinsir.

If you're already using U-Turn for Tyranitar, is Steel Wing really that helpful? Granted I'm not really sure what else could work in the slot. Tailwind could work but there's a reason it's not common on Band sets.

 

[Olly]

If you're already using U-Turn for Tyranitar, is Steel Wing really that helpful? Granted I'm not really sure what else could work in the slot. Tailwind could work but there's a reason it's not common on Band sets.

No, not really. I am thinking of changing it. I am yet to even use Steel Wing. It seems pretty situational. In general if people have Tyranitar early in the game they will switch it into your Talonflame the majority of the time. You are going to use U-Turn every time in such a scenario as being locked into Steel Wing is just asking for something to come in and setup.

The slot is complete filler tbh. I guess the other options are Roost which could be useful on rare occasion or Aerial Ace on the rare occasion you want a priority flying move without recoil. Really though it's basically a 3 move set. Everything that goes in the 4th slot is so situational that you are rarely going to use it.

 

[Kejmur]

No, not really. I am thinking of changing it. I am yet to even use Steel Wing. It seems pretty situational. In general if people have Tyranitar early in the game they will switch it into your Talonflame the majority of the time. You are going to use U-Turn every time in such a scenario as being locked into Steel Wing is just asking for something to come in and setup.

The slot is complete filler tbh. I guess the other options are Roost which could be useful on rare occasion or Aerial Ace on the rare occasion you want a priority flying move without recoil. Really though it's basically a 3 move set. Everything that goes in the 4th slot is so situational that you are rarely going to use it.

I use Choice Band Talonflame as well and run Aerial Ace on last spot (I also posted this in this thread). You probably wonder... why ? Reason is simple - you don't use this slot anyway and if you feel you can't take more recoil to finish target, you may use AA instead. Or if target is really frail (or x4 Flying weak) you may just use AA instead of Brave Bird to not take recoil damage. I had games for example where I finished 2-3 lower HP opponents with my low HP Talonflame. A game which I would loose with Brave Bird (because recoil would kill me) I cleaned up with Aerial Ace. Situational ? Sure it is. Are there better options for last slot ? Not really. So I suggest this. Toxic should be ok as well, as you bait Hippowdon/TTar/Rotom-W, etc. and many of those targets HATE Toxic, which cripple their walling potential pretty significantly.

 

[Trevenant]

One Pokemon that can actually reliably come in on Talonflame's barrage and kill it off is one of my personal favorites: Luxray! Between Intimidate and the resist to Brave Bird, it fares well. Here are some calcs:
-1 252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Luxray: 63-75 (17.3 - 20.6%)
-1 252+ Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Luxray: 127-151 (34.8 - 41.4%)
meanwhile,
252+ Atk Luxray Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Talonflame: 272-324 (75.5 - 90%)
That's one odd Talonflame, here's the standard:
252+ Atk Luxray Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 404-476 (136 - 160.2%)
Luxray certainly isn't breaking into OU anytime soon, but hey, Choice Scarf Luxray will almost always beat Talonflame.

 

[farranpoison]

One Pokemon that can actually reliably come in on Talonflame's barrage and kill it off is one of my personal favorites: Luxray! Between Intimidate and the resist to Brave Bird, it fares well. Here are some calcs:
-1 252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Luxray: 63-75 (17.3 - 20.6%)
-1 252+ Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Luxray: 127-151 (34.8 - 41.4%)
meanwhile,
252+ Atk Luxray Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Talonflame: 272-324 (75.5 - 90%)
That's one odd Talonflame, here's the standard:
252+ Atk Luxray Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 404-476 (136 - 160.2%)
Luxray certainly isn't breaking into OU anytime soon, but hey, Choice Scarf Luxray will almost always beat Talonflame.

That's... an interesting point. What moveset/EVs do you run? I'm assuming 252HP/252Atk Adamant? But with Choice Scarf?

I'm looking for more potential suicidal bird counters so I can experiment with different teams, so this helps.

 

[AOPSUser]

One Pokemon that can actually reliably come in on Talonflame's barrage and kill it off is one of my personal favorites: Luxray! Between Intimidate and the resist to Brave Bird, it fares well. Here are some calcs:
-1 252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Luxray: 63-75 (17.3 - 20.6%)
-1 252+ Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Luxray: 127-151 (34.8 - 41.4%)
meanwhile,
252+ Atk Luxray Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Talonflame: 272-324 (75.5 - 90%)
That's one odd Talonflame, here's the standard:
252+ Atk Luxray Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 404-476 (136 - 160.2%)
Luxray certainly isn't breaking into OU anytime soon, but hey, Choice Scarf Luxray will almost always beat Talonflame.

Then I switch into Dugtrio when you come in.

Your move. :P

The problem with using a fast Electric-type to "counter" Talonflame is that outside of Thundurus(-T) and Zapdos (and Talonflame will probably run enough Speed to outspeed Thundy-T at the very least), they are trapped by Dugtrio way too easily. This is especially bad since if they are choiced and Dugtrio has Sub+Hone Claws you are losing at least one more mon unless your Greninja has Water Shruiken or something. If Talonflame has boosts Brave Bird kills them. I've had so many people switch Jolteon into a +2 Talonflame...

 

[Trevenant]

That's... an interesting point. What moveset/EVs do you run? I'm assuming 252HP/252Atk Adamant? But with Choice Scarf?

I'm looking for more potential suicidal bird counters so I can experiment with different teams, so this helps.

I've been running a Life Orb attacker with Superpower / Ice Fang / Crunch / Wild Charge and 252 Attack / HP EV's with an Adamant nature. And Scarf was an example, as it outspeeds Talonflame before it can Brave Bird and will OHKO with Wild Charge.

Then I switch into Dugtrio when you come in.

Your move. :P

The problem with using a fast Electric-type to "counter" Talonflame is that outside of Thundurus(-T) and Zapdos (and Talonflame will probably run enough Speed to outspeed Thundy-T at the very least), they are trapped by Dugtrio way too easily. This is especially bad since if they are choiced and Dugtrio has Sub+Hone Claws you are losing at least one more mon unless your Greninja has Water Shruiken or something. If Talonflame has boosts Brave Bird kills them. I've had so many people switch Jolteon into a +2 Talonflame...

Yeah that's the main issue, but if you see a Dugtrio it is pretty obvious you should use Ice Fang, but yeah. Also, here are the calcs for +1 (factoring in Swords Dance, then Intimidate)
+1 252+ Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Luxray: 286-337 (78.5 - 92.5%)
+1 252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Luxray: 143-168 (39.2 - 46.1%)
But with Swords Dance Talonflame pretty much destroys everything anyways so.

 

[farranpoison]

I've been running a Life Orb attacker with Superpower / Ice Fang / Crunch / Wild Charge and 252 Attack / HP EV's with an Adamant nature. And Scarf was an example, as it outspeeds Talonflame before it can Brave Bird and will OHKO with Wild Charge.

Priority Brave Bird. Unless you meant Flare Blitz.

But thanks for the set. I might try it out sometime, see how well it works in a different team.

 

[Trevenant]

Priority Brave Bird. Unless you meant Flare Blitz.

But thanks for the set. I might try it out sometime, see how well it works in a different team.

Brave Bird does a measly amount and two Brave Birds roughly equals one Flare Blitz. After the opponent sees the low damage output, they probably won't use it twice.

 

[farranpoison]

Brave Bird does a measly amount and two Brave Birds roughly equals one Flare Blitz. After the opponent sees the low damage output, they probably won't use it twice.

No, I was referring to your post where you for some reason said Luxray could outspeed a Talonflame using Brave Bird, which confused me.

 

[Trevenant]

No, I was referring to your post where you for some reason said Luxray could outspeed a Talonflame using Brave Bird, which confused me.

Oh sorry, I meant with a Choice Scarf, Luxray outspeeds Talonflame when it isn't using a Flying-type move.

 

[Mjolnir128]

I run this set on Showdown, so don't bite my head off if Gale Wings isn't released or something.


Talon-Stallin'
Talonflame @ Leftovers
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 8 SDef / 248 HP / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Brave Bird
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
- Roost

Physically defensive, obviously. Basically, the point is to bring him in as a lead, outspeed and Taunt any hazard setters, force a switch, and get a burn on something. Provided there's no miss, 50/50 chances on what you do then. If a physical attacker is switched in, no problemo. This set obviously can't take a Stone Edge from a Tyranitar or anything like that, but I've sponged unboosted Waterfalls from a Gyarados with him. This thing is a phenomenal physical wall against anything that's not a rock move if it burns the attacker. Priority Roost allows Burn-Stalling. Brave Bird does reliable damage, though is walled by a lot of things, but not a lot of things that won't be utterly crippled by a burn and priority Roosting. Even without investment in Spe, Lvl 100 stat with 31 IV's is 288, which ain't too shabby and outspeeds literally every common lead out there. I'm planning on playing around with this set and replacing Taunt with Flame Charge or some other physical Fire move, preferably not Flare Blitz as I don't want my only two attacking options to have recoil, but I like using this set as a lead. One particular problem, though, is Cloyster. Basically, you can either Taunt it, preventing it from using Shell Smash... but if it goes for Rock Blast instead, you've got a dead Talonflame... or try to get the burn, and survive that Rock Blast, but if it went for Shell Smash instead, you better switch in something that can wall it/kill it despite those boosts.

If whatever switches in is a special, like Starmie, you switch out and make sure to have a reliable spinner, because this and just about any other Talonflame set can really suck if SR is up when it comes in.

Specially defensively-viable Steel types also work fantastically with this Talonflame as a defensive pair, for example, and in particular: Ferrothorn. They resist/are immune to eachother's weaknesses, and generally just match up well. A max Sp.Def and HP Aegislash@Leftovers w/Shadow Ball, Sacred Sword, King's Shield, and Toxic also matches well, and allows a secondary Toxic Stalling option. Since King's Shield doesn't blocks status moves though, running a viable Aromatherapy user such as Florges is also imperative.

 

[Exeggutive]

I run this set on Showdown, so don't bite my head off if Gale Wings isn't released or something.


Talon-Stallin'
Talonflame @ Leftovers
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 8 SDef / 248 HP / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Brave Bird
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
- Roost

Physically defensive, obviously. Basically, the point is to bring him in as a lead, outspeed and Taunt any hazard setters, force a switch, and get a burn on something. Provided there's no miss, 50/50 chances on what you do then. If a physical attacker is switched in, no problemo. This set obviously can't take a Stone Edge from a Tyranitar or anything like that, but I've sponged unboosted Waterfalls from a Gyarados with him. This thing is a phenomenal physical wall against anything that's not a rock move if it burns the attacker. Priority Roost allows Burn-Stalling. Brave Bird does reliable damage, though is walled by a lot of things, but not a lot of things that won't be utterly crippled by a burn and priority Roosting. Even without investment in Spe, Lvl 100 stat with 31 IV's is 288, which ain't too shabby and outspeeds literally every common lead out there. I'm planning on playing around with this set and replacing Taunt with Flame Charge or some other physical Fire move, preferably not Flare Blitz as I don't want my only two attacking options to have recoil, but I like using this set as a lead. One particular problem, though, is Cloyster. Basically, you can either Taunt it, preventing it from using Shell Smash... but if it goes for Rock Blast instead, you've got a dead Talonflame... or try to get the burn, and survive that Rock Blast, but if it went for Shell Smash instead, you better switch in something that can wall it/kill it despite those boosts.

If whatever switches in is a special, like Starmie, you switch out and make sure to have a reliable spinner, because this and just about any other Talonflame set can really suck if SR is up when it comes in.

Specially defensively-viable Steel types also work fantastically with this Talonflame as a defensive pair, for example, and in particular: Ferrothorn. They resist/are immune to eachother's weaknesses, and generally just match up well. A max Sp.Def and HP Aegislash@Leftovers w/Shadow Ball, Sacred Sword, King's Shield, and Toxic also matches well, and allows a secondary Toxic Stalling option. Since King's Shield doesn't blocks status moves though, running a viable Aromatherapy user such as Florges is also imperative.

Idk. Sounds cool but talonflame has like no bulk whatsoever. outside hitting shit with brave bird it's very one dimensional and usually needs max atk adamant to do any damage at all.

I tried playing around with bulky spreads and the power was very underwhelming and didn't accomplish anything the standard sd one couldn't. Still wrecked by rotom, ttar etc. Even with willowisp

 

[balmung]

A talonflame set that i've been running with quite a lot of success is physically defensive bulk up
the set is as follows
Talonflame @ leftovers
galewings
252 hp/252 def/4 sdef
impish
bulk up
roost
brave bird
flare blitz

offensively, it lacks a little something unless its 4x weak (ferrothorn) but when you switch in on aegislash or anything that doesnt run stone edge it takes the hit like its nothing, bulks up, roosts, and after a few boosts its killing everything bar tyranitar (which ive killed with flare blitz after stealth rocks a few times, but i havent run calcs)

its also a nice surprise factor that not a lot of people expect, and its not as gimmicky as WoW sets are in my opinion
still its potential probably lies in swords dance/life orb

 

[Trevenant]

A talonflame set that i've been running with quite a lot of success is physically defensive bulk up
the set is as follows
Talonflame @ leftovers
galewings
252 hp/252 def/4 sdef
impish
bulk up
roost
brave bird
flare blitz

offensively, it lacks a little something unless its 4x weak (ferrothorn) but when you switch in on aegislash or anything that doesnt run stone edge it takes the hit like its nothing, bulks up, roosts, and after a few boosts its killing everything bar tyranitar (which ive killed with flare blitz after stealth rocks a few times, but i havent run calcs)

its also a nice surprise factor that not a lot of people expect, and its not as gimmicky as WoW sets are in my opinion
still its potential probably lies in swords dance/life orb

Pretty sure 252 HP / 252 SpD is more effective.

 

[S0L1D G0LD]

Pretty sure 252 HP / 252 SpD is more effective.

If you want to waste your values in his poor defenses, then yes.

 

[Trevenant]

If you want to waste your values in his poor defenses, then yes.

No, the point is, Bulk Up is boosting your Defense anyways, wouldn't you rather make it bulky on both sides? CM users run 252 HP / 252 Def, it would be the opposite for BU users.